Jeffrey Sachs talks about the CIA, JFKA and the Church Committee

[W. Niederhut]

3 hours ago, John Cotter said:

Since your only response to many of my replies to you was to delete them...

But by way of enabling you to reply in a more relevant and less insulting manner, perhaps you might ask someone to explain to you the concept of a proxy war.

John,

     If you think that I don't know what a proxy war is, you're even more delusional than I thought.

     Now, how about answering my question, instead of posting another one of your inane ad hominem deflections?

     Can you explain how the war in Ukraine is not the legitimate resistance of a sovereign, democratic nation to an illegal invasion by a brutal, totalitarian police state?

[Kirk Gallaway]

39 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

 Can you explain how the war in Ukraine is not the legitimate resistance of a sovereign, democratic nation to an illegal invasion by a brutal, totalitarian police state?

That is the essential question,I was asking John. No answer.

I guess John being Irish would go with the top dog, the colonizers,the oppressors, right?

heh heh

John, I'm sure you were wide eyed, and swallowed my escapade in Budapest all the way to my final disclaimer.

Kirk "Only on this forum, would I expect to be asked such a stupid question"

Congratulations John!,

I know what you're thinking now. "If Kirk (or whatever his name really is!)was CIA. That's exactly what he'd say!"

 

hah hah

 

 

[John Cotter]

5 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

That is the essential question,I was asking John. No answer.

I guess John being Irish would go with the top dog, the colonizers,the oppressors, right?

heh heh

John, I'm sure you were wide eyed, and swallowed my escapade in Budapest all the way to my final disclaimer.

Kirk "Only on this forum, would I expect to be asked such a stupid question"

Congratulations John!,

I know what you're thinking now. "If Kirk (or whatever his name really is!)was CIA. That's exactly what he'd say!"

 

hah hah

 

 

If the two of you insist on playing childish disingenuous games, there isn’t much point in trying to have a discussion with you. (By the way, contrary to William’s outlandish claims, the foregoing sentence is not ad hominem – it’s a description of your and his online behaviour.)

Nonetheless, I’ll give ye another chance. This was my last post addressed to you:

“Kirk, old chap, since the US and its vassal states have poured over $350 billion in military and other aid into Ukraine since February 2022, please explain how the Ukraine war is not a US proxy war.”

William jumped in before you responded with one of his insulting ad hominem posts and a red herring apparently intended to divert the discussion away from the concept of a proxy war – which of course is an admission that the Ukraine war is in fact a US proxy war.

Thanks to you both for validating my point in that regard.

[Roger Odisio]

6 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

John,

     If you think that I don't know what a proxy war is, you're even more delusional than I thought.

     Now, how about answering my question, instead of posting another one of your inane ad hominem deflections?

     Can you explain how the war in Ukraine is not the legitimate resistance of a sovereign, democratic nation to an illegal invasion by a brutal, totalitarian police state?

 

Here's a quick overview, W.

 

If Ukraine ever was a "sovereign, democratic nation" that ended with the US instigated 2014 coup (which you laughably referred to as an Ukrainian revolution) that deposed Yanukovych, their elected president 

 

Start with the call between Victoria Nuland and Geoffrey Pyatt, the US ambassador to Ukraine in 2014.  They work out who she wants to replace Yanukovych, once they remove him in the coup.   The call was made about 2 weeks before the coup occurred.  It was leaked; many heard it .  People sighed.  The coup exposed by the call, it looked like a bullet was dodged.  The neocons didn't care.  They overthrew Yanukovych anyway.  Their arrogance and sense of US exceptionalism and entitlement knows no bounds.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoW75J5bnnE.

 

Also:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGq_Xvzn_3I.

 

After the coup the US backed Ukrainian leadership started going after ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine, killing about 14,000 by 2022.

 

Next came the two Minsk accords, negotiated mainly between the Russians, France and Germany, and designed ease the problems created by the coup and what had been a decades long attempt by the US and NATO to have the Ukraine join NATO to set up weapons on the Russian border.

 

Except that wasn't the real purpose of the accords, neither of which were ever implemented. A few years ago, the leaders of both France  and Germany (Angela Merkel) at the time the accords were signed, admitted they were merely a stalling tactic designed to buy time, while the Ukraine and NATO could build up their armies in preparation for war. 

 

War, coupled with sanctions, shouldn't be a problem they thought. To some neocons, Russia was "a gas station masquerading as a real country" (John McCain).

 

But right from the beginning the war didn't go well for the US and NATO.  Less than two months after it started in Feb 2022, an agreement was reached to stop the fighting, initialed by both Zelinsky and the Russians.  The agreement included a pledge that Ukraine would not join NATO, a basic Russian demand. 

 

Russian troops had already made it to the outskirts of Kiev.  Putin began withdrawing them in anticipation of the agreement being implemented.  

 

But Boris Johnson showed up at Kiev with a simple message:  go ahead with the agreement and stop the war and you're on your own.  The war must continue.  The US and NATO will give you everything you need to wage it.

 

The war was never about Ukraine as a nation and what the people there wanted.  It has always been about weakening Russia in the hopes of getting rid of Putin, as public statements by Lloyd Austin, for one example, made clear.  Ukrainian troops were proxies for the US.  They have turned out to be cannon fodder.   

 

The war has been an unmitigated disaster for the US and is likely to end in the short term.  It brought Russia and China together in a powerful alliance that now includes Iran, another target of the neocons. Even Kissinger, early in the war, lamented that it had united Russia and China after all the work he had done keep them separated and suspicious of each other, starting with Nixon's trip to China.

 

The sanctions imposed by the US as part of the war have speeded the growth and development of Brics in response to US hegemony.  The end of the US dollar as the world's reserve currency is in sight.

 

The dream of continued imposition on the rest of the world by the US of what was called Pax Americana in JFK's day is being extinguished.  A multipolar world is already here and developing rapidly, which can only help lead to a better chance at peace, which is anathema to the US war machine.

Edited September 8 by Roger Odisio

[W. Niederhut]

5 hours ago, Roger Odisio said:

 

Here's a quick overview, W.

 

If Ukraine ever was a "sovereign, democratic nation" that ended with the US instigated 2014 coup (which you laughably referred to as an Ukrainian revolution) that deposed Yanukovych, their elected president 

 

 

Thanks for updating us on this Kremlin version of history, Roger.  Gospodi pomilui!  🙄

But when and how, exactly, did Ukraine cease being a sovereign nation and UN member, in your opinion? 

I must have missed that big international news.

In reality, Yanukovych was deposed by a unanimous vote of the Ukrainian Parliament (328-0) on February 22, 2014.

Yanukovych was a corrupt Putin puppet, an embezzler, and a mass murderer (of protesters) who couldn't even speak Ukrainian, the official language of Ukraine.*  (Red italics mine.)

Imitating Putin, Yanukovych had imprisoned Ukrainian political opposition leader, Yulia Tymoshenko, in 2012 after narrowly "winning" the 2010 election against Tymoshenko.

Tymoshenko was freed from prison (during her hunger strike) after the Ukrainian Parliament voted to depose Yanukovych in February of 2014.

Yanukovych has subsequently been sentenced (in absentia) to a 13-year prison term, for treason.

As for the onset of Russian military ops against Ukraine, they began in 2014 with Putin's illegal annexation of Ukrainian Crimea, and the launching of Russian separatist ops against Eastern Ukraine.**

 

*   Viktor Yanukovych | Facts, Biography, & Flight to Russia | Britannica

As president, (in 2010) Yanukovych promptly demonstrated his pro-Russian leanings. In April 2010 he struck a deal with Russian Pres. Dmitry Medvedev to extend Russia’s lease of the port at Sevastopol, the base of the Russian Black Sea Fleet, until 2042. In exchange, Ukraine would receive a reduction in the price of Russian natural gas. The parliamentary debate over the agreement devolved into a melee, with some members of the opposition throwing eggs and lighting smoke bombs, but the measure narrowly passed. Yanukovych drew additional ire from his opponents when he stated that the Great Famine of 1932–33 (a Soviet-era famine in which four to five million Ukrainians died) should not be considered an act of genocide carried out by Soviet authorities against the Ukrainian people, as former president Yushchenko had declared.

A decision by the Constitutional Court in October 2010 greatly expanded the powers of the presidency. In 2011 Yulia Tymoshenko was charged with abuse of power and sentenced to seven years in prison. The following year Tymoshenko’s interior minister, Yuri Lutsenko, received a four-year sentence for similar charges; many observers characterized both prosecutions as politically motivated. In October 2012 the Party of Regions won the largest share of seats in parliamentary elections, and most observers characterized the polling as relatively free and fair. It appeared that Yanukovych was attempting to pivot toward the West in April 2013, when he ordered the release of Lutsenko in advance of the signing of an association agreement with the European Union.

Just days before that treaty was to be signed in November 2013, Yanukovych pulled out of the deal, triggering a scramble among EU leaders and sparking a wave of popular protests in Kiev. Putin pledged billions in financial assistance as the demonstrations in Kiev’s Maidan (Independence Square) continued into 2014. Yanukovych responded by enacting a series of anti-protest measures that were hastily repealed by the parliament after two demonstrators were killed in clashes with police in January 2014. Protests spread to eastern Ukraine, traditionally Yanukovych’s stronghold, and violence in the Maidan escalated dramatically. More than 70 people were killed in clashes with police and security forces in February 2014, as the remaining support for Yanukovych and his administration crumbled. The parliament voted to impeach Yanukovych 328-0 on February 22; he responded by denouncing the action as a coup and fleeing the capital. His whereabouts unknown, protesters descended upon Yanukovych’s opulent residence outside Kiev, and Ukraine’s interim government issued a warrant for his arrest on charges of mass murder.

On February 28 Yanukovych reappeared in Rostov-na-Donu, Russia, where he delivered a speech that decried members of the acting Ukrainian government as fascists and asserted that he was still the president of Ukraine. Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk accused Yanukovych and his associates of embezzling some $70 billion in state assets and transferring the funds to foreign banks. Authorities in Switzerland, Austria, and Liechtenstein moved to freeze assets and accounts linked to Yanukovych’s family, and prosecutors in Geneva opened a money-laundering investigation. Yanukovych himself denied the existence of any foreign accounts. In January 2015 Interpol placed the deposed leader on its wanted list in connection with those charges.

Beginning in May 2017, Yanukovych was tried in absentia for high treason and abetting Russian aggression against Ukraine. The trial included testimony from several senior Ukrainian officials, including Pres. Petro Poroshenko, and Yanukovych’s lawyers attempted to characterize the prosecution as a politically motivated stunt by Poroshenko’s administration. Poroshenko, in turn, painted Yanukovych as an instigator of “Russia’s hybrid war against Ukraine.” In January 2019 Yanukovych was found guilty of high treason and was sentenced to 13 years in prison. 

 

** Vladimir Putin admits: Russian troops 'were in Ukraine' (telegraph.co.uk)

After two years of resolute denials, the Russian president admits that he sent soldiers into eastern Ukraine after all

December 17, 2015

 

 

Edited September 9 by W. Niederhut

[Paul Rigby]

 

[Paul Rigby]

 

[Benjamin Cole]

3 hours ago, Paul Rigby said:

 

For sake of conversation, I will to set aside who started the Ukraine-Russian war, and sustained it. 

But if the US/Nato triggered the war...didn't Putin "take the bait?" 

My take is that the US/intel state likely wanted a prolonged war, to drain down Russian military capabilities, and has succeeded in that aim. Neither Biden or Harris seems to running the show on Ukraine, btw. 

We have seen US Defense Secy Austin stating out loud the US goal is to so degrade Russian it will not be able to invade neighbors again. 

Austin’s assertion that US wants to ‘weaken’ Russia underlines Biden strategy shift---CNN 4/26/22

"As Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has transformed into a grinding war of attrition with no meaningful peace deal in sight, the US and its allies have begun to convey a new, longer-term goal for the war: to defeat Russia so decisively on the battlefield that it will be deterred from launching such an attack ever again.

That message was delivered most clearly on Monday, when Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin told reporters after a trip to Ukraine’s capital city of Kyiv that “we want to see Russia weakened to the degree that it can’t do the kinds of things that it has done in invading Ukraine.”

---30---

My take is that a long draining war was a central element in the US plan all along, if anyone was planning in Washington, that is. 

If you refer to independent war-monitoring websites such as Oryx, Russian losses have been, by any normal human standard, catastrophic. 

"Between 462,000 and 728,000 Russian soldiers have been killed, injured, or captured in the invasion of Ukraine by mid-June, The Economist reported on July 5, citing leaked documents from the U.S. Defense Department."

"Russia has 1,187 soldier casualties per day in Ukraine, volunteers die more often than prisoners"

Russian equipment losses have been stupendous. The Wagner Group, Russia's true spearpoint, has been obliterated. 

Russia has lost control over Kursk. 

----

Worse, Putin is trapped, just as the US was trapped in Vietnam, Afghanistan or Iraq, halfway into those wars. Putin cannot one day say, "Oh, la-de-dah, it is time to pull out of Ukraine." So he killed off 500k Russians on a poorly chosen gambit?  This war has more years to run, with horrible losses on both sides, since Putin cannot quit. 

---

Lastly, Putin is now making alliance with and becoming indebted to the crackpot-despots of the world, such as Iran's Khomeini, Hamas, Houthis, NK's Kim and the CCP.  The most regressive, demented, vicious regimes on the planet. 

How will this end well for Russia? Sure seems like an ugly and colossal folly on Putin's behalf. 

Why didn't Putin just try to further integrate the Russian economy into Europe's, forget militarism, and concentrate on building prosperity in Russia? 

Sure, you could say the same thing about US military ops in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. That's the point. 

 

Edited September 9 by Benjamin Cole

[W. Niederhut]

17 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Why didn't Putin just try to further integrate the Russian economy into Europe's, forget militarism, and concentrate on building prosperity in Russia? 

 

Ben,

     You hit the nail on the head here.

     This is the central question about Putin and the 21st century Russian Federation that Paul Rigby and the Putin apologists on the forum never want to talk about.  (Rigby also never acknowledges Putin's war crimes in Ukraine.)

     I noticed that Putin apologists also ignored the fact that the Ukrainian Parliament voted 328-0 to depose Putin's corrupt puppet Viktor Yanukovych in February of 2014, while the people freed opposition leader Yulia Tymoshenko from prison.

     Those inconvenient truths don't support the Kremlin narrative blaming "fascists" and the CIA for the 2014 Kyiv protests against the Kremlin's puppet.

     Another inconvenient truth is that Putin was engaging in secret military ops in Eastern Ukraine as early as 2013.

Edited September 9 by W. Niederhut

[John Cotter]

23 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

For sake of conversation, I will to set aside who started the Ukraine-Russian war, and sustained it. 

But if the US/Nato triggered the war...didn't Putin "take the bait?" 

My take is that the US/intel state likely wanted a prolonged war, to drain down Russian military capabilities, and has succeeded in that aim. Neither Biden or Harris seems to running the show on Ukraine, btw. 

We have seen US Defense Secy Austin stating out loud the US goal is to so degrade Russian it will not be able to invade neighbors again. 

Austin’s assertion that US wants to ‘weaken’ Russia underlines Biden strategy shift---CNN 4/26/22

"As Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has transformed into a grinding war of attrition with no meaningful peace deal in sight, the US and its allies have begun to convey a new, longer-term goal for the war: to defeat Russia so decisively on the battlefield that it will be deterred from launching such an attack ever again.

That message was delivered most clearly on Monday, when Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin told reporters after a trip to Ukraine’s capital city of Kyiv that “we want to see Russia weakened to the degree that it can’t do the kinds of things that it has done in invading Ukraine.”

---30---

My take is that a long draining war was a central element in the US plan all along, if anyone was planning in Washington, that is. 

If you refer to independent war-monitoring websites such as Oryx, Russian losses have been, by any normal human standard, catastrophic. 

"Between 462,000 and 728,000 Russian soldiers have been killed, injured, or captured in the invasion of Ukraine by mid-June, The Economist reported on July 5, citing leaked documents from the U.S. Defense Department."

"Russia has 1,187 soldier casualties per day in Ukraine, volunteers die more often than prisoners"

Russian equipment losses have been stupendous. The Wagner Group, Russia's true spearpoint, has been obliterated. 

Russia has lost control over Kursk. 

----

Worse, Putin is trapped, just as the US was trapped in Vietnam, Afghanistan or Iraq, halfway into those wars. Putin cannot one day say, "Oh, la-de-dah, it is time to pull out of Ukraine." So he killed off 500k Russians on a poorly chosen gambit?  This war has more years to run, with horrible losses on both sides, since Putin cannot quit. 

---

Lastly, Putin is now making alliance with and becoming indebted to the crackpot-despots of the world, such as Iran's Khomeini, Hamas, Houthis, NK's Kim and the CCP.  The most regressive, demented, vicious regimes on the planet. 

How will this end well for Russia? Sure seems like an ugly and colossal folly on Putin's behalf. 

Why didn't Putin just try to further integrate the Russian economy into Europe's, forget militarism, and concentrate on building prosperity in Russia? 

Sure, you could say the same thing about US military ops in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. That's the point. 

 

You’re right about the Ukraine war being a US proxy war, Ben.

The claims about the damaging effects it’s having on Russia may be somewhat exaggerated however.

[W. Niederhut]

4 hours ago, Paul Rigby said:

 

Paul,

     Have you even listened to your own video clip here, in which the nefarious Ms. Nuland explains why the Brits and the U.S. advised the Ukrainians that this was a bad deal for Ukraine?

      One of Putin's conditions would have rendered Ukraine essentially defenseless against a future Putin invasion.

       As for John Cotter's redundant "proxy war" trope, I can't picture Cotter whining about a "proxy war" in a scenario where Putin bombed and invaded residential communities in Ireland, and the U.S. and NATO were trying to help Cotter and his besieged countrymen fight the invading army.

[Kirk Gallaway]

Briefly, The premiere Neo fascist state is Russia. It certainly isn't communist or even Socialist. It's a kleptocracy.

 

Roger ;The war has been an unmitigated disaster for the US and is likely to end in the short term.

 

You've been saying that for 2 and half years Roger! It's a disaster for the people of Ukraine and a disaster for Russia. If you're at all politically oriented you know the Israel -Hamas and Russia -Ukraine wars are both popular wars in the U.S. Not that I find that desirable. But it could change.

 

 

Roger: But right from the beginning the war didn't go well for the US and NATO.
Completely wrong there Roger, everyone was expecting a quick Russian march into Kiev. Biden offered Zelensky asylum, which he refused.

 

 

Roger: Russian troops had already made it to the outskirts of Kiev.  Putin began withdrawing them in anticipation of the agreement being implemented.  

 

Where did you hear that? You're certainly assuming a lot of mobility there?

So remember that aerial shot of the 20 mile tank convoy into Kiev, Roger?  They weren't at all a coordinated fighting force, filled with undisciplined  conscripts, poorly supplied, with such a penchant for the secrecy that the right hand didn't know what the left hand was doing.  The Ukrainians bombed critical bridges of entry. Their old tanks got stuck in the mud. They didn't have sufficient fuel  or spare parts, and were forced to loot Ukrainian towns  by foot.

 

The biggest secret learned is that Nato or the U.S. could completely overwhelm Russia in a ground war. Not that I think that's necessarily a good thing. Aren't you aware that Putin went to N. Korea and Russia has been forced to buy arms from Kim Jong Un and Iraq? Does that sound like a superior position to you?

 

 

Roger: The sanctions imposed by the US as part of the war have speeded the growth and development of Brics in response to US hegemony.  The end of the US dollar as the world's reserve currency is in sight.

 

Yes Roger, "when the Brics come marching in", you'll finally get your comeuppance  and relieve your guilt! You obviously don't have kids, but ok.  I don't think there's an urgent need for a bi polar order with despots and there will  be even less of a need in the future. But most all the Bric growth has been based on China's emergence which is demographically in decline. 

The Bric countries represent fossil fuels and coal, does that sound good to you? Gauging their progress is always cyclical as their economies are tied to  commodity  market conditions that always greatly fluctuate.  Many think Putin was saved in the early 2000's  by a spike in oil.

 

If you want a bipolar world with a bunch of despots, because we have our own corporate despotism, so what's the difference? You're  entitled to think that. But we do have the capability of actually curbing corporate power. Russia and China  can't curb their power, without completely falling apart.

 

Here's the present reality,  China's realizing that they need the U.S. much more than they need a stooge state like Russia, and unless things go completely haywire, they're not going to invade Taiwan.

 

Here's a revolution for you Roger. The United States is energy independent and after this blow up in Israel, (after all who needs this!) over the longer term, the U.S. is going to disengage, they are  going to be withdrawing their Navy used to protect the shipping lanes that they started after WW2 to make the "world safe for capitalism", and  we're going to have more and more international piracy. The Cold war is long over and the U.S. isn't as gung ho about "hegemony"  and imperialism as you think! 

 

This is already going under way. Do you know who the current U.S. largest trading partner is? Check it out! Then check out #2!

 

 

 

 

*Brazil is one of the few countries the U.S. has a trade surplus with. I don't think they're going anywhere!
 

 

 

[John Cotter]

37 minutes ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Briefly, The premiere Neo fascist state is Russia. It certainly isn't communist or even Socialist. It's a kleptocracy.

 

Roger ;The war has been an unmitigated disaster for the US and is likely to end in the short term.

 

You've been saying that for 2 and half years Roger! It's a disaster for the people of Ukraine and a disaster for Russia. If you're at all politically oriented you know the Israel -Hamas and Russia -Ukraine wars are both popular wars in the U.S. Not that I find that desirable. But it could change.

 

 

Roger: But right from the beginning the war didn't go well for the US and NATO.
Completely wrong there Roger, everyone was expecting a quick Russian march into Kiev. Biden offered Zelensky asylum, which he refused.

 

 

Roger: Russian troops had already made it to the outskirts of Kiev.  Putin began withdrawing them in anticipation of the agreement being implemented.  

 

Where did you hear that? You're certainly assuming a lot of mobility there?

So remember that aerial shot of the 20 mile tank convoy into Kiev, Roger?  They weren't at all a coordinated fighting force, filled with undisciplined  conscripts, poorly supplied, with such a penchant for the secrecy that the right hand didn't know what the left hand was doing.  The Ukrainians bombed critical bridges of entry. Their old tanks got stuck in the mud. They didn't have sufficient fuel  or spare parts, and were forced to loot Ukrainian towns  by foot.

 

The biggest secret learned is that Nato or the U.S. could completely overwhelm Russia in a ground war. Not that I think that's necessarily a good thing. Aren't you aware that Putin went to N. Korea and Russia has been forced to buy arms from Kim Jong Un and Iraq? Does that sound like a superior position to you?

 

 

Roger: The sanctions imposed by the US as part of the war have speeded the growth and development of Brics in response to US hegemony.  The end of the US dollar as the world's reserve currency is in sight.

 

Yes Roger, "when the Brics come marching in", you'll finally get your comeuppance  and relieve your guilt! You obviously don't have kids, but ok.  I don't think there's an urgent need for a bi polar order with despots and there will  be even less of a need in the future. But most all the Bric growth has been based on China's emergence which is demographically in decline. 

The Bric countries represent fossil fuels and coal, does that sound good to you? Gauging their progress is always cyclical as their economies are tied to  commodity  market conditions that always greatly fluctuate.  Many think Putin was saved in the early 2000's  by a spike in oil.

 

If you want a bipolar world with a bunch of despots, because we have our own corporate despotism, so what's the difference? You're  entitled to think that. But we do have the capability of actually curbing corporate power. Russia and China  can't curb their power, without completely falling apart.

 

Here's the present reality,  China's realizing that they need the U.S. much more than they need a stooge state like Russia, and unless things go completely haywire, they're not going to invade Taiwan.

 

Here's a revolution for you Roger. The United States is energy independent and after this blow up in Israel, (after all who needs this!) over the longer term, the U.S. is going to disengage, they are  going to be withdrawing their Navy used to protect the shipping lanes that they started after WW2 to make the "world safe for capitalism", and  we're going to have more and more international piracy. The Cold war is long over and the U.S. isn't as gung ho about "hegemony"  and imperialism as you think! 

 

This is already going under way. Do you know who the current U.S. largest trading partner is? Check it out! Then check out #2!

 

 

 

 

*Brazil is one of the few countries the U.S. has a trade surplus with. I don't think they're going anywhere!
 

 

 

Kirk, you still haven’t responded to my question/request to you:

“… since the US and its vassal states have poured over $350 billion in military and other aid into Ukraine since February 2022, please explain how the Ukraine war is not a US proxy war.”

As for William’s swipes at me in this regard, his knowledge of history is somewhat lacking. Just over 100 years ago the Irish successfully fought the then most powerful empire, the British Empire, to gain its independence. It didn’t need the equivalent of hundreds of billions dollars in military and other aid to achieve this.

Despite receiving such aid and despite being about ten times larger in area and population than Ireland, Ukraine is being defeated by Russia, a lesser power than Britain then was.

The reason for Ireland’s success back then is that it was fighting a true war of independence, not a proxy war. Press gangs weren’t dragging men from the streets to feed the meat grinder, as they are in Ukraine.

They didn’t have to, because men were willing to fight and die for their own country.

[W. Niederhut]

1 hour ago, John Cotter said:

Kirk, you still haven’t responded to my question/request to you:

“… since the US and its vassal states have poured over $350 billion in military and other aid into Ukraine since February 2022, please explain how the Ukraine war is not a US proxy war.”

As for William’s swipes at me in this regard, his knowledge of history is somewhat lacking. Just over 100 years ago the Irish successfully fought the then most powerful empire, the British Empire, to gain its independence. It didn’t need the equivalent of hundreds of billions dollars in military and other aid to achieve this.

Despite receiving such aid and despite being about ten times larger in area and population than Ireland, Ukraine is being defeated by Russia, a lesser power than Britain then was.

The reason for Ireland’s success back then is that it was fighting a true war of independence, not a proxy war. Press gangs weren’t dragging men from the streets to feed the meat grinder, as they are in Ukraine.

They didn’t have to, because men were willing to fight and die for their own country.

John,

    You, obviously, missed the point of my above analogy.

    As for your pseudo-historical response, perhaps it hasn't occurred to you that Irish civilians and residential communities weren't being bombed by high-tech modern missiles in the early 20th century-- in a manner similar to Putin's war crimes in 21st century Ukraine.

    In any case, if you actually believe now that the besieged Ukrainians haven't been fighting, and dying, for their freedom and sovereignty since February of 2022, I can't help you. 

     Perhaps a psychiatrist could be of some help, but I'm retired.

     I'll close by pointing out that you are still dodging my question.

Can you explain how the war in Ukraine is not the legitimate resistance of a sovereign, democratic nation to an illegal invasion by a brutal, totalitarian police state?

 

[John Cotter]

1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

John,

    You, obviously, missed the point of my above analogy.

    As for your pseudo-historical response, perhaps it hasn't occurred to you that Irish civilians and residential communities weren't being bombed by high-tech modern missiles in the early 20th century-- in a manner similar to Putin's war crimes in 21st century Ukraine.

    In any case, if you actually believe now that the besieged Ukrainians haven't been fighting, and dying, for their freedom and sovereignty since February of 2022, I can't help you. 

     Perhaps a psychiatrist could be of some help, but I'm retired.

     I'll close by pointing out that you are still dodging my question.

Can you explain how the war in Ukraine is not the legitimate resistance of a sovereign, democratic nation to an illegal invasion by a brutal, totalitarian police state?

 

I’ve already addressed your red herring question, which was a deflection from my question to Kirk, which he has never answered (There are over 350 billion reasons – as well as the ones I’ve since given – why the Ukraine war is a proxy war and not a war of independence.)

Roger Odisio also cogently explained why it’s a proxy war, but you "hand-waved" that factual account away by claiming it was Russian propaganda. By your warped logic everything you post about the Ukraine war is UN/NATO propaganda. That’s the nonsensical corner you’ve boxed yourself into.

Now you’re claiming you know more about Irish history than I do. Are there any limits to your delusional omniscience?

Your point about “high-tech modern missiles” is likewise nonsensical. Does the fact that the ancient Romans didn’t have such missiles make any significant difference to the preponderance of military power that they had over the nations they conquered?

Fortunately for Ukraine, the Russians have refrained from the kind of indiscriminate bombing perpetrated by the US in places such as Germany, Japan, South East Asia, Yugoslavia and Iraq during the past 80 years.

As for psychiatry, I’ve previously explained to you the fraudulent nature of mainstream psychiatry, by reference to, inter alia, the writings of Professor Thomas Szasz and Dr Terry Lynch.

Typical of your ad hominem approach, you failed to rebut any of these writings and instead defamed Prof Szasz. Needless to say, you didn’t dare defame Dr Lynch, presumably because you know that, unlike Prof Szasz, Dr Lynch is still alive and could sue you.

Edited September 9 by John Cotter