Taking seriously Oswald's front steps alibi claim

[Greg Doudna]

32 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

And not only did Fritz, Bookhout, and Hosty do Oswald a HUGE FAVOR....but Oswald HIMSELF did those men an even bigger favor when he clammed up and decided to not tell the world VIA LIVE TELEVISION that was outside when the shooting occurred. And Oswald, of course, had MULTIPLE chances to do just that and to shout out to the reporters and live TV cameras: I was on the front steps when JFK was shot!

Nonsense. Fritz, Bookhout, and Hosty did not do Oswald any favor by failing to disclose his alibi claim.

Oswald debatably missed an opportunity. Lots of wouldas and shouldas sometimes. Oswald showed no sign of making his defense or trying his case to reporters on either Tippit or JFK (JFK which he seems not to have been aware he was even being accused of until near midnight Friday), apart from strenuously claiming he was not guilty, claiming he was a patsy, and claiming he was not being told what was going on. 

It has been argued, and there is an argument, that Oswald could have been slipped word to hang tight, intervention would be happening to get him out of the trouble he was in (in light of previous history of a covert nature with US agencies). That is one way of accounting for Oswald's telling Marina "don't worry, everything's gonna be OK, now tell me about Junie's shoes...". 

Another point: was Oswald aware that going out to see the parade was an alibi claim? Or was it just answering a question among many others not recognized as of significance until--until when would that change, exactly? 

US Postal Inspector Holmes:

"As the questioning gradually led up to Kennedy, he just acted like he couldn't imagine anybody thinking that he might have shot Kennedy. He never worried about going to jail or being put to death. He just denied that he ever shot the President and acted like it never entered his head that it was possible that you could charge him with shooting the President." (in Sneed, No More Silence, 361)

[Greg Doudna]

There is enough to make the identification. Prayer Man was Oswald, beyond reasonable doubt. Not beyond conceivable doubt. But beyond reasonable doubt.

To review the key points which tip the Oswald identification beyond reasonable doubt

• Height match to Oswald's 5'9"
• Hairline match to Oswald's, early stage male pattern baldness.
• possible match to Oswald birthmark on throat
• near Shelley two persons away match to what Oswald told interrogators
• no speaking or interaction with others, by himself, correspondence to Oswald behavior at work
• near glass doors in rear suggestive of late, unnoticed entry consistent with Oswald claim of being on first floor, and not with anyone
• the logic of overwhelming expectation that an Oswald on first floor would go a few feet to step out the glass doors as the most convenient way to see the president he admired and respected pass by
• the explicit confirmation in long-suppressed, authentic, handwritten, earliest-information interrogators' notes that he told them he went outside to see the parade, in agreement with expectation that he would have in any case
• agreement in clothing with what Oswald was wearing at work that morning
• coke in hand in agreement with Oswald told interrogators he bought a coke to have with his lunch before he went out front to see the parade
• perhaps the most likely figure on the steps to have been unnoticed by others on the steps due to position on the steps, late arrival, in shadow, no conversation, and nondescriptness
• Pierce Allman encounter with Oswald at location timed at 40 seconds not 3 minutes confirms Oswald at the same location as Prayer Man, at the same time as Prayer Man.
• the figure was a Book Depository employee at high confidence due to every single other person on the steps, without exception, being TSBD employees, and the likelihood from the figure's position that the figure came out through the glass doors
• All other Book Depository employees' whereabouts are known and accounted for, except Oswald, who said he was where the figure is
• Oswald is not confirmed or known present anywhere else at the time
• no other named identification of the figure is known or has been established

Its sufficient. I say it was Oswald. Sufficient to take to the bank. 

His connection to the rifle remains to be explained (I accept that it was his). His other movements need to be explained. His involvement or lack thereof with other aspects of the assassination remain questions to be separately resolved. 

But the identification of the figure on the steps as Oswald, photographed on the steps where Oswald said he was, establishes that Oswald was not the sixth floor shooter.

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

For some reason, there are members of the JFKA/RFK1A research community who have a need to not only present skeptical reviews of official narratives---entirely valid undertakings---but then, in zeal, try to totally exonerate LHO or Sirhan.

 

I haven't seen any credible evidence that Oswald was involved in the shooting.

In contrast, I've seen plenty of evidence that someone -- probably the CIA --set Oswald up, and that the government accepted/believed the set-up. And altered evidence... essentially also setting Oswald up.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

You can't be a patsy if you are not in on the action.

 

I don't know why you say that. I see no reason to believe Oswald knew Kennedy was to be assassinated.

In fact, one witness said that Oswald asked her why everybody was going out front. He didn't even know that the motorcade was set to pass the TSBD.

 

 

[David Von Pein]

13 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I've seen plenty of evidence that someone -- probably the CIA --set Oswald up, and that the government accepted/believed the set-up. And altered evidence... essentially also setting Oswald up.

Which is, of course, an incredible and next-to-impossible-to-believe "Let's Set Up Oswald" like-mindedness on the part of the alleged pre-assassination plotters and the alleged post-assassination evidence alterers. How anyone can believe such fiction is beyond me.

Related topic (which can also be applied to the things I just said above)....

What Are The Odds Of Both Of These Things Occurring In The Very Same Murder Case?

 

Edited yesterday at 03:17 AM by David Von Pein

[Sandy Larsen]

7 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Which is, of course, an incredible and next-to-impossible-to-believe "Let's Set Up Oswald" like-mindedness on the part of the alleged pre-assassination plotters and the alleged post-assassination evidence alterers.

 

It is easy to see why  both the CIA and the U.S. government would both INDEPENDENTLY want to set Oswald up.

The CIA set Oswald up because they needed someone along the motorcade route to be blamed for the assassination. That way the investigation would be deflected from the real perps toward Oswald. And -- thanks to the Mexico City incident -- toward Cuba and Russia.

The U.S. government bought the ruse, only later to discover that Oswald was telling the truth when he said that he  was a patsy. By then, the government was so heavily invested in that (incorrect) conclusion that they decided to go with it in order to cover up the communist conspiracy angle.

This effectively made the government complicit in making Oswald a patsy.

 

[David Von Pein]

9 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

It is easy to see why  both the CIA and the U.S. government would both INDEPENDENTLY want to set Oswald up.

Why did the DPD want to join the frame-up of Oswald? How come? What for?

 

Edited yesterday at 03:56 AM by David Von Pein

[Sandy Larsen]

18 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Why did the DPD want to join the frame-up of Oswald? How come? What for?

 

It's obvious that someone in the DPD was being run by the CIA. I mean, why were they after the Oswald so shortly after the shootings, without having done any meaningful investigation? Why did all those squad cars zero in on the theater as though Oswald were an escaped convict? They had virtually nothing on Oswald at the time.

 

[David Von Pein]

4 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

It's obvious that someone in the DPD was being run by the CIA.

Yeah, sure. It would seem (per many CTers) that the whole world was (and still is) being run by the CIA.

Edited yesterday at 04:27 AM by David Von Pein

[Greg Doudna]

Off-topic of thread? 😊

[Sandy Larsen]

10 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

Off-topic of thread? 😊

 

My apologies Greg.

 

[Micah Mileto]

2 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Which is, of course, an incredible and next-to-impossible-to-believe "Let's Set Up Oswald" like-mindedness on the part of the alleged pre-assassination plotters and the alleged post-assassination evidence alterers. How anyone can believe such fiction is beyond me.

Related topic (which can also be applied to the things I just said above)....

What Are The Odds Of Both Of These Things Occurring In The Very Same Murder Case?

 

How do you keep a conspiracy of 3 or more people? Do you immediately give up and declare "three people can keep a secret, but only if two of them are dead"? Or, do you give it the old College try? The Nazi SS were specially selected through numerous filters to create a team of the biggest jerks in the world. And what about a team made up of people who have secrets of their own to hide, or addictions to feed? A person doesn't need to be James Bond to suffer and risk their life maintaining lies. Maybe they aren't that hard to find if you look in the right places. Maybe normal is a myth.

[Benjamin Cole]

7 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

I don't know why you say that. I see no reason to believe Oswald knew Kennedy was to be assassinated.

In fact, one witness said that Oswald asked her why everybody was going out front. He didn't even know that the motorcade was set to pass the TSBD.

 

 

SL--

Thanks for your collegial comment. 

IMHO, LHO wittingly participated in what he thought was a false flag event to be blamed on Castro. Likely, LHO fired and missed intentionally (interestingly, a replay of the Walker shooting). 

LHO unwittingly participated in what became the JFKA, but figured out within moments either he had been framed, or likely so.

All IMHO. 

[Benjamin Cole]

7 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

I haven't seen any credible evidence that Oswald was involved in the shooting.

In contrast, I've seen plenty of evidence that someone -- probably the CIA --set Oswald up, and that the government accepted/believed the set-up. And altered evidence... essentially also setting Oswald up.

 

SL--

Thanks for your collegial comment. 

I am entirely open to the view that some evidence against LHO was manufactured or altered. 

I contend shots struck JFK and JBC in too-rapid a succession to have been fired by one lone gunman with a single-shot bolt action rifle. CT'er I am.

But...LHO was a CIA asset in the TSBD at the time a CIA-linked JFKA plot unfolded, including shots from the TSBD. 

LHO appeared to have owned the rifle found in TSBD6 and not one witness ever said they saw LHO when shots rang out. 

LHO, post-JFKA immediately went home and armed himself in the aftermath of the JFKA, went to watch movies (?), and drew his gun when approached by DPD'ers. 

IMHO, the odds are high LHO was involved in the JFKA. 

[Benjamin Cole]

8 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

There is enough to make the identification. Prayer Man was Oswald, beyond reasonable doubt. Not beyond conceivable doubt. But beyond reasonable doubt.

To review the key points which tip the Oswald identification beyond reasonable doubt

• Height match to Oswald's 5'9"
• Hairline match to Oswald's, early stage male pattern baldness.
• possible match to Oswald birthmark on throat
• near Shelley two persons away match to what Oswald told interrogators
• no speaking or interaction with others, by himself, correspondence to Oswald behavior at work
• near glass doors in rear suggestive of late, unnoticed entry consistent with Oswald claim of being on first floor, and not with anyone
• the logic of overwhelming expectation that an Oswald on first floor would go a few feet to step out the glass doors as the most convenient way to see the president he admired and respected pass by
• the explicit confirmation in long-suppressed, authentic, handwritten, earliest-information interrogators' notes that he told them he went outside to see the parade, in agreement with expectation that he would have in any case
• agreement in clothing with what Oswald was wearing at work that morning
• coke in hand in agreement with Oswald told interrogators he bought a coke to have with his lunch before he went out front to see the parade
• perhaps the most likely figure on the steps to have been unnoticed by others on the steps due to position on the steps, late arrival, in shadow, no conversation, and nondescriptness
• Pierce Allman encounter with Oswald at location timed at 40 seconds not 3 minutes confirms Oswald at the same location as Prayer Man, at the same time as Prayer Man.
• the figure was a Book Depository employee at high confidence due to every single other person on the steps, without exception, being TSBD employees, and the likelihood from the figure's position that the figure came out through the glass doors
• All other Book Depository employees' whereabouts are known and accounted for, except Oswald, who said he was where the figure is
• Oswald is not confirmed or known present anywhere else at the time
• no other named identification of the figure is known or has been established

Its sufficient. I say it was Oswald. Sufficient to take to the bank. 

His connection to the rifle remains to be explained (I accept that it was his). His other movements need to be explained. His involvement or lack thereof with other aspects of the assassination remain questions to be separately resolved. 

But the identification of the figure on the steps as Oswald, photographed on the steps where Oswald said he was, establishes that Oswald was not the sixth floor shooter.

GD-

The Fat Prayer Lady must be LHO...by deduction?

Why not, by deduction, since no one saw LHO at the time shots rang out...he was in TSBD6?

And what about the two or three TSBD floors of publishing house employees? Are you assured none looked like the Fat Prayer Lady? 

Or any passerby, or which there were thousands, deciding to take a perch at the top of the steps to get a view? 

Just IMHO...the identity of the Fat Prayer lady is not not beyond reasonable doubt. In fact, I have a lot of doubts.