The Holocaust 1933-1945

[Denis Morissette]

When I have time to read the links you provided, I will comment.

No, I'm not a Nazi. I have never been and never will. And stop labeling Don and I as racists. I understand your motivation, though.

I am not denying the Holocaust. I am just wondering if it is possible to exterminate 4 million of people in less than three years. If I am shown it is possible, I will admit it right away and shut up. Both Andy and John need to have a training on how to treat forum members.

Edited February 12, 2005 by Denis Morissette

[Guest]

No, I'm not a Nazi. I have never been and never will. And stop labeling Don and I as racists. I understand your motivation, though.

You are of course doing this to yourself by supporting the revisionism of Nazis like Leuchter and Zundel uncritically.

I am happy to see an informed discussion of these matters on this forum, but it hasn't been very "informed" so far.

[UlrikeSchuhFricke]

Don, Dennis, read Reinhard Hoess' autobiography. He answers all your questions and he did all the sums and calculations you pretend to be interested in.When he was in charge of Auschwitz (1941-1942) he kept a very tidy and precise "business" diary - the perfect German accountant - and wrote down exactly how many trains came in, how many people the trains carried, how many gas was needed to kill the largest number of people in less than 20 minutes, how many people were sent to the gas chambers immediately and how many were sent to work in Auschwitz and its affiliates. He also wrote down how many gold teeth had been extracted, how many hair collected, how many pairs of shoes could be sent to German soldiers etc. For Hoess Auschwitz was a large factory whose product and profit was the huge number of people killed every hour and day and like every good capitalist the most important thing for Hoess was to increase the output (numbers of people killed in less time than before) and he was extremely successful. Hoess was a fervent fascist and Nazi and when he wrote his autobiography his only aim was to show the world how sucessful he had been and that he was not to blame for what had happened as he had been following orders only.

I am not sure if the English version of his autobiography is still available but I am sure that if you trawl the net you will come across one. He was too successful a nazi for the neo-nazis in all countries not to keep his book in print.

By the way if you want to find out how Auschwitz is spelled and where you can find it Hoess' book can help you with that as well: he drew a map of Germany in 1942 (=Germany+Austria+the major part of France+Poland+the later CSSR+ parts of the then USSR) dotted with hundreds of major and minor camps where people were gassed or "worked" to death.

[Guest]

I am not sure if the English version of his autobiography is still available but I am sure that if you trawl the net you will come across one. He was too successful a nazi for the neo-nazis in all countries not to keep his book in print.

By the way if you want to find out how Auschwitz is spelled and where you can find it Hoess' book can help you with that as well: he drew a map of Germany in 1942 (=Germany+Austria+the major part of France+Poland+the later CSSR+ parts of the then USSR) dotted with hundreds of major and minor camps where people were gassed or "worked" to death.

Don and Dennis may also find THIS LINK educative. I really do hope so.

Some basic PRIMARY SOURCE MATERIAL CAN ALSO BE ACCESSED BY CLICKING HERE

[John Simkin]

I am not sure if the English version of his autobiography is still available but I am sure that if you trawl the net you will come across one. He was too successful a nazi for the neo-nazis in all countries not to keep his book in print.

91 copies available at Abebooks

http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/SearchRe...imagefield.y=11

[Denis Morissette]

Thanks guys. I think we have enough documentation to make up our minds. Reading about extermination of human beings is not my favorite thing, but I'll do it for the sake of knowing for sure what happened.

[Denis Morissette]

Thanks for this message, Don. It's our turn to question motives of people like John S., Andy and others.

[Guest]

OK Don, Let's deal with some of your heroes, the evidence of whom, you prefer to the many thousands of documents and witness and perpetrator testimonies we on this forum have attempted to encourage you to "think freely" about.

Step forward Mr Zundel - in his own words below

Wherever we look, we White people find ourselves besieged by peoples of other races who compete aggressively against us for jobs, food, housing, education and above all -- power! The Jews are particularly adept at seizing or insinuating themselves into strategic positions in our society where they wield power far beyond the extent of their numbers....Through us, the White majority of Europe and America, the Jewish minority have obtained their advantages, including their Israel, their Federal Reserve, their World Bank and their International Monetary Fund. In exchange for these advantages, the Jews give us -- their White hosts -- wars, depressions, inflation, unemployment, energy shortages, higher and higher taxes and air piracy. Like sheep, they expect us to go down the road with them -- all the way to the kosher slaughterhouse. We White people of America have done nothing so far which would frustrate the Jews' expectations or their ambitions of becoming the world's slavemasters.

Sounds to me like a somewhat deranged white supremacist come international jewish conspiracy theorist. You however as a "free thinker" apparently think otherwise??

Next his mate Fred Leuchter - a perjurer and regular speaker on the Neo Nazi circuit. Now to be found desperately blaming a Zionist plot for his miserable failure of a career. Funded by Zundel (so obviously not a Nazi ) Leuchter toured round the concentration camps of the East to prepare his Leuchter Report for the Zundel trial.

Armed with his BA in History Leuchter (and nothing else!) Leuchter stated his intention to

supply scientific evidence and information obtained at the actual sites and to render an opinion based on all available scientific, engineering and quantitative data as to the purpose and usages of the alleged execution gas chambers and crematory

facilities at the investigated locations.

Lacking as he does any scientific or engineering qualification Leuchter's evidence was laughed out of court. The presiding judge dismissed Fred Leuchter's report as "ridiculous" and "preposterous". Moreover Leuchter gave false evidence in court .

Heigh Ho! I guess stupid free thinkers might just as well trust his words and motives over the thousands of primary sources and witness testimonies relating to the holocaust, but I am sure very few with a brain in their head would.

The "Leuchter Report" purports to "scientifically demonstrate" that people were not killed by Zyklon-B at Auschwitz. It is composed of old claims made by the French Holocaust denier and teacher of Ernst Zundel Faurisson whom you rather quaintly describe as a man of the left - in Europe he is roundly regarded as a fabricator and anti semite. One of his wilder suggestions has been that the Anne Frank diaries are fakes - and guess what he has also been a regular on the Neo Nazi lecture tour circuit.

Now Don you are of course quite within your rights to believe that holocaust revisionism is some sort of crusade to uncover a great conspiracy (you obviously like conspiracies), but in doing so quite so uncritically you lay yourself open to the charges of either stupidity (if we are charitable), or Nazism (if we are not).

Finally the quality of written language, grammar and spelling is important if one wishes to achieve clarity of thought and meaning. I am afraid neither Dennis or yourself have achieved either of these yet. You both also seem to be approaching this topic from a position of such staggering ignorance as to make me fearful of the quality of the American education system.

[Guest]

I of course concluded that you liked conspiracies from your web site linked from your signature.

By the way I do not think people should be imprisoned for their political views no matter how repulsive they are - and let's face it they don't get much more repulsive than the ones you are lending credence to on this forum. Inciting racial hatred is however a crime in a great many mature democracies and quite rightly so. Zundel was imprisoned for inciting racial hatred.

You have been offered a great deal of evidence that supports the reality of the Holocaust. Also you have been offered very clear rebuttals of the nonsense that it holocaust revisionism. You have chosen to ignore it all in favour of your commitment to wild conspiracy theorists. This does not show free thought rather it shows lack of judgement.

Perhaps it is worth remembering that none of the perpetrators of the holocaust when tried ever sought to "deny" the reality of the crimes they had committed. They simply claimed they were "obeying orders". Denial has come later as far Right groups have attempted to rehabilitate Nazism. Food for thought for some I hope

[John Simkin]

The story of Witold Pilecki might be worth telling in this thread. He was born in Poland in 1901. When the German Army invaded the country in September, 1939, Pilecki joined the Tajna Armia Polska, the Secret Polish Army.

When Pilecki discovered the existence of Auschwitz, he suggested a plan to his senior officers. Pilecki argued he should get himself arrested and sent to the concentration camp. He would then send out reports of what was happening in the camp. He would also explore the possibility of organizing a mass break-out.

Pilecki's colonel eventually agreed and after securing a false identity as Tomasz Serafinski, he arranged to be arrested in September, 1940. As expected he was sent to Auschwitz where he became prisoner 4,859. His work consisted of building more huts to hold the increased numbers of prisoners.

Pilecki soon discovered the brutality of the Schutz Staffeinel (SS) guards. When one man managed to escape on 28th October 1940, all the prisoners were forced to stand at attention on the parade-ground from noon till nine in the evening. Anyone who moved was shot and over 200 prisoners died of exposure. Pilecki was able to send reports back to the Tajna Armia Polska explaining how the Germans were treating their prisoners. This information was then sent to foreign office in London.

In 1942 Pilecki discovered that new windowless concrete huts were being built with nozzles in their ceilings. Soon afterwards he heard that that prisoners were being herded into these huts and that the nozzles were being used to feed cyanide gas into the building. Afterwards the bodies were taken to the building next door where they were cremated.

Pilecki soon got this information to the Tajna Armia Polska who passed it onto the British foreign office. This information was then passed on to the governments of other Allied countries. However, most people who saw the reports refused to believe them and dismissed the stories as attempts by the Poles to manipulate the military strategy of the Allies.

In the autumn of 1942, Jozef Cyrankiewicz, a member of the Polish Communist Party, was sent to Auschwitz. Pilecki and Cyrankiewicz worked closely together and in organizing a mass breakout. By the end of 1942 they had a group of 500 ready to try and overthrow their guards.

Four of the inmates escaped on their own on 29th December, 1942. One of these men, a dentist called Kuczbara, was caught and interrogated by the Gestapo. Kuczbara was one of the leaders of Pilecki's group and so when he heard the news he realized that it would be only a matter of time before the SS realized that he had been organizing these escape attempts.

Pilecki had already arranged his escape route and after feigning typhus, he escaped from the hospital on 24th April, 1943. After hiding in the local forest, Pilecki reached his unit of the Tajna Armia Polska on 2nd May. He returned to normal duties and fought during the Warsaw Uprising in the summer of 1944. Although captured by the German Army he was eventually released by Allied troops in April, 1945.

After the Second World War Pilecki went to live in Poland.The Polish Secret Police had him executed in 1948. It is believed that this was a result of his anti-communist activities.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERpilecki.htm

[Guest]

Since we last broached the subject here, Ernst Zundel has been ordered to be extradited to Germany, where he will almost certainly face an even longer prison sentence than he would have in Canada.

Some good news in this thread at last!

[Guest]

Don, true to form in this thread your knowledge of this matter is extremely limited and distinctly dubious.

Zundel is actually in trouble for vehemently espousing racism and racial hatred in a number of countries.

Last week, Canadian Federal Court Justice Pierre Blais ruled that Zundel's links to neo-Nazi and white supremacist groups that espouse violence posed a threat to national security, and therefore he should be sent back to his native Germany.

Unfortunately for Zundel "denying the holocaust" is also a crime in Germany (those with a smidgeon of historical understanding will understand why). This means he is in even more trouble. I for one am not unhappy about this.

A foul foul man with an even fouler message - why do you continue to offer this Nazi support????

Be careful not to make anti Semitic comments on this forum please. There is no place of such rubbish here.

[Mike Tribe]

This really is getting very depressing... The "revisionist" - "denial" camp simply won't listen to anything like historical evidence. I think it's to do with the "conspiracy theory" approach to history. When faced with incontrovertible evidence -- as these people have been on numerous occasions on this very forum -- they simply refuse to credit any of it... It must all be the result of some sort of conspiratorial cover-up. Unfortunately, this sort of thing is all-too-common among certain sectors of -- particularly -- North American society. The death of Jimi Hendrix was a conspiracy. The death of John Lennon was a conspiracy. AIDS is CIA-sponsored. Just a glance at some of the posts in the political conspiracies section of the forum gives you a flavor, but if you really want to get an experience of the whole thing, try following up some of the links at the bottom of the posters' messages. One choice one tells us that John Lennon is really happy in the afterlife and has divorced Yoko Ono because of her lesbian tendencies. The good news is that he's happily remarried.

Andy, I just don't think there's any point in trying to engage these people in serious debate...

[Guest]

Andy, I just don't think there's any point in trying to engage these people in serious debate...

Perhaps not, but as an educator I live in hope

I am close to giving up with Don though - he seems to think it is a peaceful and legtimate activity to incite racial hatred across the world. Either he is blind to the deep involvement Zundel and his ilk have in far right violent groups across the world, or he supports them, or he is just plain stupid........ and now I am labelled as someone who defends violence against the person

It is indeed a strange little world our Don seems to inhabit

[Mike Tribe]

(1) I've been teaching history for 35 years. There is a wealth of evidence that the Holocaust took place. I've read a lot of it. Life is too short to waste time regurgitating it.

(2) I don't know whether you're a Nazi or not. I suspect some of your acquaintances may at the very least be anti-semitic. I remember one of your ilk suggesting that Mr Zundel's predicament came about as a result of the Zionist conspiracy which controlled Canada.

(3) I suspect that a lot of people writing the Holocaust denial material on this forum are simply deluded rather than racist. To this end, I did not say that you, personally, believed the Jimmi Hendrix was assassinated conspiracy. I simply suggested that following up the links posted by you and your fellow deniers threw up some very interesting conspiracy theories, including those I listed. Andy suggested some time ago that perhaps there was a conspiracy afoot by conspiracy theorists to discredit the forum... No, too far-fetched!

(4) I do not support the denial of the rights to free speech of anyone except in the most severe of circumstances. There are, however, circumstances when the greater good must prevail. I would support, for example, the actions by the Spanish authorities in deporting an Islamic cleric to published and circulated a booklet stating that it was perfectly OK for moslem men to beat their wives provided they used rods less than 2 cm thick. I don't know enough about Herr Zundel's case to judge whether he would fall in such a category.