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The Holocaust 1933-1945


Shanet Clark
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Let's start with a statement of fact.

Over six million innocent people were murdered by the Nazi Party before Berlin was captured in 1945.

Jews, leftists, intellectuals, gay men, Gypsies, Poles and the developmentally disabled were herded to forced labor camps and worked to death or murdered.

As I say, this is an indisputable fact and the key to understanding the nationalist race ideology of the Party, which aggressively initiated the second world war.

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Denis Morissette,Feb 2 2005, 12:34 AM

WARNING to anyone who would be tempted to claim that the holocaust is a myth: You could end up in jail! :ph34r:

Let me share my experience. In a recent trip to Germany we spent a day at Dachau. I had wanted to go there to pay my respects, especially after watching the Munich massacre of the Israeli athletes in 1972 (Dachau was visible in the distance from the Olympic stadium). I was with a group; our tour guide (Austrian) and bus driver (Swedish) dropped us off and returned later in the day to pick us up. I asked why they had not come in. "I never go into places like that," the guide said. "It is all the same, you Americans did the same things, but they don't make you open up camps for people to parade around in."

While there, I found myself walking around bewildered, until I realized that all the original buildings had been torn down and new ones built in the "same style". The wooden shoes and uniforms on display were new. It was very clean. It seemed entirely sanitized. I became so distressed, I finally went inside to the main building and found myself watching the movies that play continually. It was there that I found my orientation, for they showed the Allied soldiers forcing the citizens of Dachau (the camp is on the main road into town, quite visible) to walk through the camp after its liberation; the well-dressed men and women were fainting and becoming ill into their ironed hankerchiefs. There was a little justice, after all.

Pamela

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WARNING to anyone who would be tempted to claim that the holocaust is a myth: You could end up in jail! 

Dennis Morissette

Holocaust denial is unpleasant and disreputable academically, and actually illegal in some countries. If, however, it isn't illegal in your own country, which, in the case of Mr Morissette, I assume to the the USA, then I would think it most unlikely that you would be arrested and extradited! Or is there yet another "conspiracy" involved here about which I know nothing? Like the Corsican, Greek, Italian, FBI, Cuban, CIA, Yale, etc conspiracies to kill Kennedy...

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Holocaust denial is unpleasant and disreputable academically, and actually illegal in some countries.

The Holocaust is one of the most comprehensively documented events in history. It is therefore difficult to believe that any sane individual can believe it did not happened. Therefore, most people, including myself, assume that Holocaust deniers are racists. However, does that mean that the expression of this theory is always racist. Is it healthy for a government to stop citizens from expressing holocaust denial beliefs?

As a historian who is only too aware of how governments have used censorship in the past to control the minds of its citizens, I rarely support the idea of censorship. However, I do believe that anything that encourages hatred of a particular race does need to be censored. However, problems arise from this position. For example, some people have claimed that criticism of the foreign policies of Israel is racist. Similar things have been said about criticisms of Muslim governments. Christians have argued recently in the UK that the authorities are quick to ban things that give offence to the Muslim community but are unwilling to ban things such as the Jerry Springer Musical that offend Christians.

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WARNING to anyone who would be tempted to claim that the holocaust is a myth: You could end up in jail! 

Dennis Morissette

Holocaust denial is unpleasant and disreputable academically, and actually illegal in some countries. If, however, it isn't illegal in your own country, which, in the case of Mr Morissette, I assume to the the USA, then I would think it most unlikely that you would be arrested and extradited! Or is there yet another "conspiracy" involved here about which I know nothing? Like the Corsican, Greek, Italian, FBI, Cuban, CIA, Yale, etc conspiracies to kill Kennedy...

I'm actually from Canada. Here you may be criminally prosecuted for denying the holocaust.

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WARNING to anyone who would be tempted to claim that the holocaust is a myth: You could end up in jail! 

Dennis Morissette

Holocaust denial is unpleasant and disreputable academically, and actually illegal in some countries. If, however, it isn't illegal in your own country, which, in the case of Mr Morissette, I assume to the the USA, then I would think it most unlikely that you would be arrested and extradited! Or is there yet another "conspiracy" involved here about which I know nothing? Like the Corsican, Greek, Italian, FBI, Cuban, CIA, Yale, etc conspiracies to kill Kennedy...

I'm actually from Canada. Here you may be criminally prosecuted for denying the holocaust.

Holocaust denial quite rightly is a criminal offence in many countries and would of course break our Forum Guidelines.

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WARNING to anyone who would be tempted to claim that the holocaust is a myth: You could end up in jail! 

Dennis Morissette

Holocaust denial is unpleasant and disreputable academically, and actually illegal in some countries. If, however, it isn't illegal in your own country, which, in the case of Mr Morissette, I assume to the the USA, then I would think it most unlikely that you would be arrested and extradited! Or is there yet another "conspiracy" involved here about which I know nothing? Like the Corsican, Greek, Italian, FBI, Cuban, CIA, Yale, etc conspiracies to kill Kennedy...

I'm actually from Canada. Here you may be criminally prosecuted for denying the holocaust.

Holocaust denial quite rightly is a criminal offence in many countries and would of course break our Forum Guidelines.

Denial is criminal in Canada, but is "questionning" the holocaust as well?

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I'm a bit worried that we may be going down a trail we shouldn't. Clearly, the Holocaust is a major historical event and, as such, should be researched and even debated. I'm not sure I even agree with Andy that it is right to make Holocaust denial illegal. However, it already seems that some of the posts on this come from people with axes to grind, and I'd hate to see the forum overwhelmed by people intent on propagating their own rather peculiar versions of "history". Again, even at this early stage, some of the posts appear to be somewhat provocative...

Again, I understand the views of the moderators regarding censorship, but I do think that if there is going to be a "holocaust debate" on here, it will have to be scrupulously monitored...

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I thought you might be interested in this email I have just received from Salvador Astucia. Hopefully, you will now understand how we were trying to handle a difficult situation.

John Simkin: Your fellow propagandist, Andy Walker, has essentially revoked my posting privileges, although he claims he's merely monitoring my posts. The bottom line is my messages are not being posted on the message board. So in effect, it equivalent to having one's privileges revoked. Frankly, it was a gutless move. He's giving people the false impression that I left voluntarily, so he can claim he runs an open forum. Even for an obvious propaganda operation, your forum is really bad. Not just flawed. It's very bad. It's worse than the Usenet. And your moderating abilities? The worst. Poor. Very poor. Perhaps you should consider retirement. Seriously.

Salvador Astucia

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Denis, what do you mean by "questioning the holocaust"? What is there to be questioned? What are the questions?

Referring to your previous posting: Does it really matter how many people were murdered every day in Auschwitz? The problem of the holocaust is not one of numbers but of the political idea and plan behind it: the idea of a master race who has every right of the world to destroy the races which this master race and its ideologists defined as being inferior. Couple this ideology with the proverbial German efficiency and you have the industrialized mass murder of innocent people which went on in Auschwitz. Every single person who died in the German concentration camps -be it Jews, Jehovas Witnesses, Sinti, homosexuals, those who opposed the system- is one too many. Not only people were killed the holocaust also exterminated a language (Yiddish)and a culture which had been an integral part of European culture and academic life for centuries.

For me as a German there are many questions relating to the holocaust: how could it happen in a country which can be proud of its poets and philosophers and its contribution to the ideas of the Enlightenment and liberalism and socialism; why did people actively or passively support this system knowing full well what was going on in Germany and what happened to the Jews and the other groups mentioned above; how could those who had killed hundreds and thousands of people on a daily basis not feel any guilt; can such a thing happen again. These are the questions I have concerning Nazism and Auschwitz.

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For me as a German there are many questions relating to the holocaust: how could it happen in a country which can be proud of its poets and philosophers and its contribution to the ideas of the Enlightenment and liberalism and socialism; why did people actively or passively support this system knowing full well what was going on in Germany and what happened to the Jews and the other groups mentioned above; how could those who had killed hundreds and thousands of people on a daily basis not feel any guilt; can such a thing happen again. These are the questions I have concerning Nazism and Auschwitz.

Thank you Ulrike for raising pertinent, important and intelligent questions of the Holocaust.

This is a welcome change in this otherwise thoroughly depressing thread.

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