Guest Stephen Turner Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 All crime has a motivation,and this is true of murder. Greed, hate, self protection, rage, all of these, and more, can lead a person to kill. All of the above are understandable motives,and are relatively easy to solve. I contend though that none of these motives fits Oswalds murder of JFK. So what of political reasons for murder, these are many, and varied,Trotsky's murder by Stalinist agents, Bombing campaigns, 9-11, does Oswald fit here? No, for two good reasons, All political murders are driven by a "cause" either promotion of the cause, or intense personal hatred. Killing for the promotion of a cause involves complete ideological attachment to the group and its belifes, and if the killer is captured alive, the reading of a prepaired statement or such, justifing the action,in other words the complete opposite of Oswald. He denies the murder from the offset, uses the word patsy to describe his situation, hardly the actions of an ideologically driven man.So what of murder for political hatred, quite apart from the fact that this is almost always "Up close"( Driven by hatred as it is.) there is an even more serious flaw. Of all the dozens of witnesess interviewed by the W/C,not one can remember a single incident of LHO critisising JFK, in fact the opposite apears true, he seemed to like the man. So unless Oswald decided to kill Kennedy years before, and fool evryone by pretending to like him, This motive fails. So what are we left with? Killing for fame? Well the problems here,and there are a truckload, is that according to Postner Oswalds attempted slaying of Gen Walker was politically motivated, are we then to belive that this ideologically drive man kills for the flimsy reason of fame? Sorry makes no sence. The other problem with this theory is that people who murder to become famous, don't then as a rule deny their actions, rather they glory in them and bask in their percieved notariety-yet another dead end- So what are we left with as a possible motive for Oswalds actions, we find our selves at the impass the W/C found themselves at nearly 42 years ago, namely, THERE WAS NO GOOD REASON FOR OSWALD TO HAVE SHOT KENNEDY. Their solution? That this alienated, cold individual shot kennedy for deep psychological reasons we will probably never understand. Of all the reasons for pre-meditated, cold blooded murder, this one takes the blue ribband for B/S, Lee must have realised that he cannot escape his actions,that he will be hated for ever, his very name a byword for treachery, that his beloved daughters will be stigmatised, his political belifes denegrated, his wife and friends put in grave danger. Further undermining Oswald as the assassin is his behaviour in custody, people who kill for the puny reasons Postner, and the W/C list, are, after the deed,depressed, they realise the crime outweighs the reason, they can even become suicidal. They do not become smart mouthed, clever, dismissive, allude that they are known by the CIA, ask for lawyers by name, deny that they commited the crime, or call themselves Patsy's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stephen Turner Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 Just a thought on this subject, apart from LHO, and Sirhan Sirhan can anybody think of another crime of this magnitude that was commited for such puny, senseless motives,as neither man was suffering from a gross psychological disorder motives of delusion,or disordered/pressured thinking cannot be applied in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 Just a thought on this subject, apart from LHO, and Sirhan Sirhan can anybody think of another crime of this magnitude that was commited for such puny, senseless motives,as neither man was suffering from a gross psychological disorder motives of delusion,or disordered/pressured thinking cannot be applied in this case. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Stephen I would like to answer with Lennon, but I'm not sure exactly what your question id. Could you perhaps rephrase it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stephen Turner Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 Just a thought on this subject, apart from LHO, and Sirhan Sirhan can anybody think of another crime of this magnitude that was commited for such puny, senseless motives,as neither man was suffering from a gross psychological disorder motives of delusion,or disordered/pressured thinking cannot be applied in this case. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Stephen I would like to answer with Lennon, but I'm not sure exactly what your question id. Could you perhaps rephrase it? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> John is anyone aware of any other assassination that had so little recognisable political/economic reasoning behind it. as I said neither Oswald or sirhan were suffering from a persistant delusional state, so madness cannot be given as a reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Bollschweiler Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 Stephen I would like to answer with Lennon, but I'm not sure exactly what your question id. Could you perhaps rephrase it? Hi John Mark Chapman clearly suffered delusional paranoid schizophrenia, and was receiving psychiatric help during 1979 and 1980. Feeling his very existence was being threatened, he had attempted suicide twice. He became increasingly fixated on both Holden Caulfield (the fictional hero of J D Salinger's "The Catcher In The Rye") and John Lennon, the rock legend. He told his wife he was going to change his name to "Holden Caulfield", but, at the same time, signed himself out of work as "John Lennon". In the end, Chapman believed he was living a life that mirrored that of Holden Caulfield and mirrored the unreal superstar life of John Lennon. Chapman was confused and paranoid about who he really was, and perhaps in killing John Lennon, he was trying to kill himself. So therefore he would not fit Stephen's "Wanted Profile" George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher T. George Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 Hi Stephen I have to agree that Lee Harvey Oswald was a very odd fish. You would think that knowing more about him, would hopefully clarify what the assassination was all about. I do agree that Oswald in no way fits the mold for either a crazed, fixated gunman or a hired gun. Knowing Oswald's strange biography and movements only seems to muddy the waters and make the assassination harder to comprehend. Even if he was the "patsy" for the killing as he claimed, and he had no role in the actual killing, Oswald's story seems to confuse things. He remains the veritable fly in the ointment of trying to understand the assassination, or, ha ha, "Waiter there's an Oswald in my soup!" Yet if it was a set-up, it could be that this is exactly what the plotters wanted, that Oswald was such an oddity that it would confuse investigators who were trying to get to the bottom of the crime. If that is so, possibly Oswald's involvement as gunman or patsy has functioned precisely as the planners desired. Best regards Chris George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Root Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 We know two fact for sure about Oswald post assassination. 1). He wanted Jonathon Abt as his attorney to the exclusion of all others. He turned down local Dalles attorneys hoping to reach Abt. He even had family members and friends attempt to contact Abt. 2). He attempted to contact "John Hurt." Not only did this attempt fail it seems that it was hidden from the Warren Commission. One has to wonder why? It is my opinion that Oswald was somewhat prepared, when arressted, to make contact with people he felt could help him. This preperation is similiar to what he did (if you accept that he shot at Walker) prior to his previous assassination attempt. He left behind a note that detailed what Marina was to do if he was caught and held. Perhaps if Oswald had been caught after the Walker attempt Kenndy would have served two terms. One could suggest that Oswald may well have wanted a trial for some reason! What story would he have told? Jim Root Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Forman Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 There was also phone number in Oswald's pocket for a payphone outside of an apartment complex in Fort Worth. This was put together by Mae Brussell. I highlighted some of the text that I found interesting. Doesn't sound like a guilty man or a psycho to me. - lee http://www.flashback.se/archive/LHO12:30 P.M., CST, NOV. 22, 1963 Pres. John F. Kennedy Assassinated 12:33 P.M. Lee Harvey Oswald left work, entered a bus, and said, "Transfer, please." 12:40 - 12:45 P.M. Oswald got off the bus, entered a cab, and said, "May I have this cab?" A woman approached, wanting a cab, and Oswald said, "I will let you have this one. . . . 500 North Beckley Street [instructions to William Whaley, driver of another cab]. . . . This will be fine." Oswald departed cab and walked a few blocks. 1:15 P.M. Officer J. D. Tippit Murdered 1:45 P.M. Arrest at the Texas Theater "This is it" or "Well, it's all over now." Oswald arrested. (Patrolman M. N. McDonald heard these remarks. Other officers who were at the scene did not hear them.) "I don't know why you are treating me like this. The only thing I have done is carry a pistol into a movie. . . . I don't see why you handcuffed me. . . . Why should I hide my face? I haven't done anything to be ashamed of. . . . I want a lawyer. . . . I am not resisting arrest. . . . I didn't kill anybody. . . . I haven't shot anybody. . . . I protest this police brutality. . . . I fought back there, but I know I wasn't supposed to be carrying a gun. . . . What is this all about?" 2:00 - 2:15 P.M. Drive to Police Dept. "What is this all about? . . . I know my rights. . . . A police officer has been killed? . . . I hear they burn for murder. Well, they say it just takes a second to die. . . . All I did was carry a gun. . . . No, Hidell is not my real name. . . . I have been in the Marine Corps, have a dishonorable discharge, and went to Russia. . . . I had some trouble with police in New Orleans for passing out pro-Castro literature. right. . . . I demand my rights." 2:15 P.M. Taken into Police Dept. 2:15 - 2:20 P.M. "Talked to" by officers Guy F. Rose and Richard S. Stovall. No notes. Mr. Stovall. I don't recall exactly--I went in and asked him for his identification, asked him who he was and he said his name was Lee Oswald, as well as I remember. Rose and I were both in there at the time. He had his billfold and in it he had the identification of "A. Hidell," which was on a selective service card, as well as I remember. Mr. Ball. That's [spelling] H-i-d-e-l-1, isn't it?. Mr. Stovall. I'm not positive on that--I believe it was [spelling] H-i-d-e-l-1, I'm not sure. And he also had identification of Lee Harvey Oswald, and I believe that was on a Social Security card and at that time Captain Fritz opened the door to the office there and sent Rose and I to go out to this address in Irving at 2515 West Fifth Street in Irving. That was--I don't know where the Captain got the address, but it was an address where he was supposed to be staying part of the time. Mr. Rose. There were some people in the office from the Book Depository and we talked to a few of them and then in just a few minutes they brought in Lee Oswald and I talked to him for a few minutes? Mr. Ball. What did you say to him or did he say to you? Mr. Rose. Well, the first thing I asked him was what his name was and he told me it was Hidell. Mr. Ball. Did he tell you it was Hidell? Mr. Rose. Yes; he did. Mr. Ball. He didn't tell you it was Oswald? Mr. Rose. No; he didn't, not right then--he did later. In a minute--I found two cards--I found a card that said "A. Hidell." And I found another card that said "Lee Oswald" on it, and I asked him which of the two was his correct name. He wouldn't tell me at the time, he just said, "You find out." And then in just a few minutes Captain Fritz came in and he told me to get two men and go to Irving and search his house. Mr. Ball. Now, when he first came in there--you said that he said his name was "Hidell"? Mr. Rose. Yes. Mr. Ball. Was that before you saw the two cards? Mr. Rose. Yes; it was. Mr. Ball. Did he give you his first name? Mr. Rose. He just said "Hidell"; I remember he just gave me the last name of "Hidell". Mr. Ball. And then you found two or three cards on him? Mr. Rose. Yes; we did. Mr. Ball. Did you search him? Mr. Rose. He had already been searched and someone had his billfold. I don't know whether it was the patrolman who brought him in that had it or not. Mr. Ball. And the contents of the billfold supposedly were before you? Mr. Rose. Yes. Mr. Ball. Were you sitting down? Mr. Rose. No; I was standing in the interrogation room. Mr. Ball. Where was he--was he standing too? Mr. Rose. No; he was sitting in the chair. Mr. Ball. Was he handcuffed? Mr. Rose. Yes; he was. Mr. Ball. Were the handcuffs behind or in front of him? Mr. Rose. I believe they were behind him--I don't remember for sure. Mr. Ball. Who else was present at that time? Mr. Rose. Detective Stovall, he was my partner, and I believe both uniformed men were present--two of the uniformed men were present. Mr. Ball. The ones who brought him in? Mr. Rose. Yes. Mr. Ball. Do you know their names? Mr. Rose. I don't remember--I did see McDonald and I did talk to him, but I don't remember whether he was the one that was standing right there at the time or not. Mr. Ball. After you saw the cards, you asked him which one was his true name? Mr. Rose. Yes; I did. Mr. Ball. What did he say? Mr. Rose. He said, "You find out." 2:25 - 4:04 P.M. Interrogation of Oswald, Office of Capt Will Fritz "My name is Lee Harvey Oswald. . . . I work at the Texas School Book Depository Building. . . . I lived in Minsk and in Moscow. . . . I worked in a factory. . . . I liked everything over there except the weather. . . . I have a wife and some children. . . . My residence is 1026 North Beckley, Dallas, Tex." Oswald recognized FBI agent James Hosty and said, "You have been at my home two or three times talking to my wife. I don't appreciate your coming out there when I was not there. . . . I was never in Mexico City. I have been in Tijuana. . . . Please take the handcuffs from behind me, behind my back. . . . I observed a rifle in the Texas School Book Depository where I work, on Nov. 20, 1963. . . . Mr. Roy Truly, the supervisor, displayed the rifle to individuals in his office on the first floor. . . . I never owned a rifle myself. . . . I resided in the Soviet Union for three years, where I have many friends and relatives of my wife. . . . I was secretary of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New Orleans a few months ago. . . . While in the Marines, I received an award for marksmanship as a member of the U.S. Marine Corps. was present in the Texas School Book Depository Building, I have been employed there since Oct. 15, 1963. . . . As a laborer, I have access to the entire building. . . . My usual place of work is on the first floor. However, I frequently use the fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh floors to get books. I was on all floors this morning. . . . Because of all the confusion, I figured there would be no work performed that afternoon so I decided to go home. . . . I changed my clothing and went to a movie. no other reason. . . . I fought the Dallas Police who arrested me in the movie theater where I received a cut and a bump. . . . I didn't shoot Pres. John F. Kennedy or Officer J. D. Tippit. . . . An officer struck me, causing the marks on my left eye, after I had struck him. . . . I just had them in there," when asked why he had bullets in his pocket. 3:54 P.M. NBC newsman Bill Ryan announced on national television that "Lee Oswald seems to be the prime suspect in the assassination of John F. Kennedy." 4:45 P.M. At a Lineup for Helen Markham, Witness to Tippit Murder "It isn't right to put me in line with these teenagers. . . . You know what you are doing, and you are trying to railroad me. . . . I want my lawyer. . . . You are doing me an injustice by putting me out there dressed different than these other men. . . . I am out there, the only one with a bruise on his head. . . . I don t believe the lineup is fair, and I desire to put on a jacket similar to those worn by some of the other individuals in the lineup. . . . All of you have a shirt on, and I have a T-shirt on. I want a shirt or something. . . . This T-shirt is unfair." 4:45 - 6:30 P.M. Second Interrogation of Oswald, Captain Fritz's Office "When I left the Texas School Book Depository, I went to my room, where I changed my trousers, got a pistol, and went to a picture show. . . . You know how boys do when they have a gun, they carry it. . . . Yes, I had written the Russian Embassy. (On Nov. 9, 1963, Oswald had written to the Russian Embassy that FBI agent James Hosty was making some kind of deals with Marina, and he didn't trust "the notorious FBI.") . . . Mr. Hosty, you have been accosting my wife. You mistreated her on two different occasions when you talked with her. . . . I know you. Well, he threatened her. He practically told her she would have to go back to Russia. You know, I can't use a phone. . . . I want that attorney in New York, Mr. Abt. I don't know him personally but I know about a case that he handled some years ago, where he represented the people who had violated the Smith Act, [which made it illegal to teach or advocate the violent overthrow of the U.S. government] . . . I don't know him personally, but that is the attorney I want. . . . If I can't get him, then I may get the American Civil Liberties Union to send me an attorney." "I went to school in New York and in Fort Worth, Tex. . . . After getting into the Marines, I finished my high school education. . . . I support the Castro revolution. . . . My landlady didn't understand my name correctly, so it was her idea to call me 0. H. Lee. . . . I want to talk with Mr. Abt, a New York attorney. . . . The only package I brought to work was my lunch. . . . I never had a card to the Communist party. pistol in Fort Worth several months ago. . . . I refuse to tell you where the pistol was purchased. . . . I never ordered any guns. . . . I am not malcontent. Nothing irritated me about the President." When Capt. Will Fritz asked Oswald, "Do you believe in a deity?" Oswald replied, "I don't care to discuss that." "How can I afford a rifle on the Book Depository salary of $1.25 an hour? . . . John Kennedy had a nice family. minutes after the assassination. Oswald confirmed this in Captain Fritz's office. A man impersonating Oswald in Dallas just prior to the assassination could have been on the bus and in the taxicab.) "That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Ruth Paine. Don't try to tie her into this. She had nothing to do with it. I told you people I did. . . . Everybody will know who I am now." "Can I get an attorney?. . . I have not been given the opportunity to have counsel. . . . As I said, the Fair Play for Cuba Committee has definitely been investigated, that is very true. . . . The results of that investigation were zero. The Fair Play for Cuba Committee is not now on the attorney general's subversive list." 6:30 P.M. Lineup for Witnesses Cecil J. McWatters, Sam Guinyard, and Ted Callaway "I didn't shoot anyone," Oswald yelled in the halls to reporters. . . . "I want to get in touch with a lawyer, Mr. Abt, in New York City. . . . I never killed anybody." 7:10 P.M. Arraignment: State of Texas v. Lee Harvey Oswald for Murder with Malice of Officer J. D. Tippit of the Dallas Police Dept. "I insist upon my constitutional rights. . . . The way you are treating me, I might as well be in Russia. . . . I was not granted my request to put on a jacket similar to those worn by other individuals in some previous lineups." 7:50 P.M. Lineup for Witness J. D. Davis "I have been dressed differently than the other three. . . . Don't you know the difference? I still have on the same clothes I was arrested in. The other two were prisoners, already in jail." Seth Kantor, reporter, heard Oswald yell, "I am only a patsy." 7:55 P.M. Third Interrogation, Captain Fritz's Office "I think I have talked long enough. I don't have anything else to say. rather lengthy. . . . I don't care to talk anymore. . . . I am waiting for someone to come forward to give me legal assistance. . . . It wasn't actually true as to how I got home. I took a bus, but due to a traffic jam, I left the bus and got a taxicab, by which means I actually arrived at my residence." 8:55 P.M. Fingerprints, Identification Paraffin Tests--All in Fritz's Office "I will not sign the fingerprint card until I talk to my attorney. [Oswald's name is on the card anyway.] . . . What are you trying to prove with this paraffin test, that I fired a gun? . . . You are wasting your time. I don't know anything about what you are accusing me." 11:00 - 11:20 P.M. "Talked To" by Police Officer John Adamcik and FBI Agent M. Clements "I was in Russia two years and liked it in Russia. . . . I am 5 ft. 9 in., weigh 140 lb., have brown hair, blue-gray eyes, and have no tattoos or permanent scars." (Oswald had mastoidectomy scars and left upper-arm scars, both noted in Marine records. "Warren Report," pp. 614-618, lists information from Oswald obtained during this interview about members of his family, past employment, past residences.) 11:20 - 11:25 P.M. Lineup for Press Conference; Jack Ruby Present When newsmen asked Oswald about his black eye, he answered, "A cop hit me." When asked about the earlier arraignment, Oswald said "Well, I was questioned by Judge Johnston. However, I protested at that time that I was not allowed legal representation during that very short and sweet hearing. I really don't know what the situation is about. Nobody has told me anything except that I am accused of murdering a policeman. I know nothing more than that, and I do request someone to come forward to give me legal assistance." When asked, "Did you kill the President?" Oswald replied, "No. I have not been charged with that. In fact, nobody has said that to me yet. The first thing I heard about it was when the newspaper reporters in the hall asked me that question. . . . I did not do it. I did not do it. . . . I did not shoot anyone." 12:23 A.M., NOV. 23, 1963 Placed in Jail Cell 12:35 A.M. Released by Jailer Oswald complained, "This is the third set of fingerprints, photographs being taken." 1:10 A.M. Back in Jail Cell 1:35 A.M. Arraignment: State of Texas v. Lee Harvey Oswald for the Murder with Malice of John F. Kennedy "Well, sir, I guess this is the trial. . . . I want to contact my lawyer, Mr. Abt, in New York City. I would like to have this gentleman. He is with the American Civil Liberties Union." (John J. Abt now in private practice in New York, was the general counsel for the Senate Sub-Committee on Civil Liberties from 1935-1937, and later served as legal adviser for the Progressive party from 1948-1951. Mr. Abt has never been a member of the ACLU.) 10:30 A.M.-1:10 P.M. Interrogation, Capt. Will Fritz's Office "I said I wanted to contact Attorney Abt, New York. He defended the Smith Act cases in 1949, 1950, but I don't know his address, except that it is in New York. . . . I never owned a rifle. . . . Michael Paine owned a car, Ruth Paine owned two cars. . . . Robert Oswald, my brother, lives in Fort Worth. He and the Paines were closest friends in town. . . . The FBI has thoroughly interrogated me at various other times. . . . They have used their hard and soft approach to me, and they use the buddy system. . . . I am familiar with all types of questioning and have no intention of making any statements. . . . In the past three weeks the FBI has talked to my wife. They were abusive and impolite. They frightened my wife, and I consider their activities obnoxious." (When arrested, Oswald had FBI Agent James Hosty's home phone and office phone numbers and car license number in his possession.) "I was arrested in New Orleans for disturbing the peace and paid a $10 fine for demonstrating for the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. I had a fight with some anti-Castro refugees and they were released while I was fined. . . . I refuse to take a polygraph. It has always been my practice not to agree to take a polygraph . . . The FBI has overstepped their bounds in using various tactics in interviewing me. . . . I didn't shoot John Kennedy. . . . I didn't even know Gov. John Connally had been shot. . . . I don't own a rifle. . . . I didn't tell Buell Wesley Frazier anything about bringing back some curtain rods. . . . My wife lives with Mrs. Ruth Paine. She [Mrs. Paine] was learning Russian. They needed help with the young baby, so it made a nice arrangement for both of them. . . . I don't know Mrs. Paine very well, but Mr. Paine and his wife were separated a great deal of the time." (Michael Paine worked at Bell Aerospace as a scientific engineer. His boss, Walter Dornberger, was a Nazi war criminal. The first call, the "tipoff," on Oswald, came from Bell Aerospace.) "The garage at the Paines' house has some seabags that have a lot of my personal belongings. I left them after coming back from New Orleans in September. . . . The name Alek Hidell was picked up while working in New Orleans in the Fair Play for Cuba organization. . . . I speak Russian, correspond with people in Russia, and receive newspapers from Russia. . . . I don't own a rifle at all. . . . I did have a small rifle some years in the past. You can't buy a rifle in Russia, you can only buy shotguns. I had a shotgun in Russia and hunted some while there. I didn't bring the rifle from New Orleans. . . . I am not a member of the Communist party. . . . I belong to the Civil Liberties Union. . . . I did carry a package to the Texas School Book Depository. I carried my lunch, a sandwich and fruit, which I made at Paine's house. . . . I had nothing personal against John Kennedy." 1:10 - 1:30 P.M. Lee Harvey Oswald Visited by Mother, Marguerite Oswald, and Wife, Marina Oswald (To his Mother.) "No, there is nothing you can do. Everything is fine. I know my rights, and I will have an attorney. I already requested to get in touch with Attorney Abt, I think is his name. Don't worry about a thing." (To his Wife.) "Oh, no, they have not been beating me. They are treating me fine. . . . You're not to worry about that. Did you bring June and Rachel? . . . Of course we can speak about absolutely anything at all. . . . It's a mistake. I'm not guilty. There are people who will help me. There is a lawyer in New York on whom I am counting for help. . . . Don't cry. There is nothing to cry about. Try not to think about it. . . . Everything is going to be all right. If they ask you anything, you have a right not to answer. You have a right to refuse. Do you understand? . . . You are not to worry. You have friends. They'll help you. If it comes to that, you can ask the Red Cross for help. You mustn't worry about me. Kiss Junie and Rachel for me. I love you. . . . Be sure to buy shoes for June." 2:15 P.M. Lineup for Witnesses William W. Scoggins and William Whaley "I refuse to answer questions. I have my T-shirt on, the other men are dressed differently. . . . Everybody's got a shirt and everything, and I've got a T-shirt on. . . . This is unfair." 3:30 - 3:40 P.M. Robert Oswald, Brother, in Ten-Minute Visit "I cannot or would not say anything, because the line is apparently tapped. [They were talking through telephones.] . . . I got these bruises in the theater. They haven't bothered me since. They are treating me all right. . . . What do you think of the baby? Well, it was a girl, and I wanted a boy, but you know how that goes. . . . I don't know what is going on. I just don't know what they are talking about. . . . Don't believe all the so-called evidence." When Robert Oswald looked into Lee's eyes for some clue, Lee said to him, "Brother, you won't find anything there. . . . My friends will take care of Marina and the two children." When Robert Oswald stated that he didn't believe the Paines were friends of Lee's, he answered back, "Yes, they are. . . . Junie needs a new pair of shoes." (Robert Oswald told the Warren Commission, "To me his answers were mechanical, and I was not talking to the Lee I knew.") 3:40 P.M. Lee Harvey Oswald Calls Mrs. Ruth Paine "This is Lee. Would you please call John Abt in New York for me after 6:00 P.M. The number for his office is ___________, and his residence is _______________ . . . . Thank you for your concern." 5:30 - 5:35 P.M. Visit with H. Louis Nichols, President of the Dallas Bar Association "Well, I really don't know what this is all about, that I have been kept incarcerated and kept incommunicado. . . . Do you know a lawyer in New York named John Abt? I believe in New York City. I would like to have him represent me. That is the man I would like. Do you know any lawyers who are members of the American Civil Liberties Union? I am a member of that organization, and I would like to have somebody who is a member of that organization represent me." Mr. Nichols offered to help find a lawyer, but Oswald said, "No, not now. You might come back next week, and if I don't get some of these other people to assist me, I might ask you to get somebody to represent me." 6:00 - 6:30 P.M. Interrogation, Captain Fritz's Office "In time I will be able to show you that this is not my picture, but I don't want to answer any more questions. . . . I will not discuss this photograph [which was used on the cover of Feb. 21, 1964 "Life" magazine] without advice of an attorney. . . . There was another rifle in the building. I have seen it. Warren Caster had two rifles, a 30.06 Mauser and a .22 for his son. . . . That picture is not mine, but the face is mine. The picture has been made by superimposing my face. The other part of the picture is not me at all, and I have never seen this picture before. I understand photography real well, and that, in time, I will be able to show you that is not my picture and that it has been made by someone else. . . . It was entirely possible that the Police Dept. has superimposed this part of the photograph over the body of someone else. . . . The Dallas Police were the culprits. . . . The small picture was reduced from the larger one, made by some persons unknown to me. . . . Since I have been photographed at City Hall, with people taking my picture while being transferred from the office to the jail door, someone has been able to get a picture of my face, and with that, they have made this picture. . . . I never kept a rifle at Mrs. Paine's garage at Irving, Tex. . . . We had no visitors at our apartment on North Beckley. . . . I have no receipts for purchase of any gun, and I have never ordered any guns. I do not own a rifle, never possessed a rifle. . . . I will not say who wrote A. J. Hidell on my Selective Service card. [it was later confirmed that Marina Oswald wrote in the name Hidell.] . . . I will not tell you the purpose of carrying the card or the use I made of it. . . . The address book in my possession has the names of Russian immigrants in Dallas, Tex., whom I have visited." 9:30 P.M. Lee Harvey Oswald Calls His Wife, Marina, at Mrs. Paine's Home "Marina, please. Would you try to locate her?" (Marina had moved.) 10:00 P.M. Office of Captain Fritz "Life is better for the colored people in Russia than it is in the U.S." 9:30 - 11:15 A.M., SUNDAY MORNING, NOV. 24,1963 Interrogation in Capt. Will Fritz's Office "After the assassination, a policeman or some man came rushing into the School Book Depository Building and said, `Where is your telephone?' He showed me some kind of credential and identified himself, so he might not have been a police officer. . . . `Right there,' I answered, pointing to the phone. . . . `Yes, I can eat lunch with you,' I told my co-worker, `but I can't go right now. You go and take the elevator, but send the elevator back up.' [The elevator in the building was broken.] . . . After all this commotion started, I just went downstairs and started to see what it was all about. A police officer and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told officers that I am one of the employees in the building. . . . If you ask me about the shooting of Tippit, I don't know what you are talking about. . . . The only thing I am here for is because I popped a policeman in the nose in the theater on Jefferson Avenue, which I readily admit I did, because I was protecting myself. . . . I learned about the job vacancy at the Texas School Book Depository from people in Mrs. Paine's neighborhood. . . . I visited my wife Thursday night, Nov. 21, whereas I normally visited her over the weekend, because Mrs. Paine was giving a party for the children on the weekend. They were having a houseful of neighborhood children. I didn't want to be around at such a time. . . . Therefore, my weekly visit was on Thursday night instead of on the weekend. . . . It didn't cost much to go to Mexico. It cost me some $26, a small, ridiculous amount to eat, and another ridiculous small amount to stay all night. . . . I went to the Mexican Embassy to try to get this permission to go to Russia by way of Cuba. . . . I went to the Mexican Consulate in Mexico City. I went to the Russian Embassy to go to Russia by way of Cuba. They told me to come back in `thirty days.' . . . I don't recall the shape, it may have been a small sack, or a large sack; you don't always find one that just fits your sandwiches. . . . The sack was in the car, beside me, on my lap, as it always is. . . . I didn't get it crushed. It was not on the back seat. Mr. Frazier must have been mistaken or else thinking about the other time when he picked me up. . . . The Fair Play for Cuba Committee was a loosely organized thing and we had no officers. Probably you can call me the secretary of it because I did collect money. [Oswald was the only member in New Orleans.] . . . In New York City they have a well-organized, or a better, organization. . . . No, not at all: I didn't intend to organize here in Dallas; I was too busy trying to get a job. . . . If anyone else was entitled to get mail in P.O. Box 6525 at the Terminal Annex in New Orleans, the answer is no. . . . The rental application said Fair Play for Cuba Committee and the American Civil Liberties Union. Maybe I put them on there. . . . It is possible that on rare occasions I may have handed one of the keys to my wife to get my mail, but certainly nobody else. . . . I never ordered a rifle under the name of Hidell, Oswald, or any other name. . . . I never permitted anyone else to order a rifle to be received in this box. . . . I never ordered any rifle by mail order or bought any money order for the purpose of paying for such a rifle. . . . I didn't own any rifle. I have not practiced or shot with a rifle. . . . I subscribe to two publications from Russia, one being a hometown paper published in Minsk, where I met and married my wife. . . . We moved around so much that it was more practical to simply rent post office boxes and have mail forwarded from one box to the next rather than going through the process of furnishing changes of address to the publishers. . . . Marina Oswald and A. J. Hidell were listed under the caption of persons entitled to receive mail through my box in New Orleans. . . . I don't recall anything about the A. J. Hidell being on the post office card. . . . I presume you have reference to a map I had in my room with some X's on it. I have no automobile. I have no means of conveyance. I have to walk from where I am going most of the time. I had my applications with the Texas Employment Commission. They furnished me names and addresses of places that had openings like I might fill, and neighborhood people had furnished me information on jobs I might get. . . . I was seeking a job, and I would put these markings on this map so I could plan my itinerary around with less walking. Each one of these X's represented a place where I went and interviewed for a job. . . . You can check each one of them out if you want to. . . . The X on the intersection of Elm and Houston is the location of the Texas School Book Depository. I did go there and interview for a job. In fact, I got the job there. That is all the map amounts to. [Ruth Paine later stated she had marked Lee's map.] . . . What religion am I? I have no faith, I suppose you mean, in the Bible. I have read the Bible. It is fair reading, but not very interesting. As a matter of fact, I am a student of philosophy and I don't consider the Bible as even a reasonable or intelligent philosophy. I don't think of it. . . . I told you I haven't shot a rifle since the Marines, possibly a small bore, maybe a .22, but not anything larger since I have left the Marine Corps. . . . I never received a package sent to me through the mailbox in Dallas, Box No. 2915, under the name of Alek Hidell, absolutely not. . . . Maybe my wife, but I couldn't say for sure whether my wife ever got this mail, but it is possible she could have." Oswald was told that an attorney offered to assist him, and he answered, "I don't particularly want him, but I will take him if I can't do any better, and will contact him at a later date. . . . I have been a student of Marxism since the age of 14. . . . American people will soon forget the President was shot, but I didn't shoot him. . . . Since the President was killed, someone else would take his place, perhaps Vice-President Johnson. His views about Cuba would probably be largely the same as those of President Kennedy. . . . I never lived on Neely Street. These people are mistaken about visiting there, because I never lived there. . . . It might not be proper to answer further questions, because what I say might be construed in a different light than what I actually meant it to be. . . . When the head of any government dies, or is killed, there is always a second in command who would take over. . . . I did not kill President Kennedy or Officer Tippit. If you want me to cop out to hitting or pleading guilty to hitting a cop in the mouth when I was arrested, yeah, I plead guilty to that. But I do deny shooting both the President and Tippit." 11:10 A.M. Preparation for Oswald's Transfer to County Jail "I would like to have a shirt from clothing that was brought to the office to wear over the T-shirt I am wearing. . . . I prefer wearing a black Ivy League-type shirt, which might be a little warmer. I don't want a hat. . . . I will just take one of those sweaters, the black one." 11:15 A.M. Inspector Thomas J. Kelley, U.S. Secret Service, Has Final Conversation with Lee Harvey Oswald Kelley approached Oswald, out of the hearing of others, except perhaps Captain Fritz's men, and said that as a Secret Service agent, he was anxious to talk with him as soon as he secured counsel, because Oswald was charged with the assassination of the President but had denied it. Oswald said, "I will be glad to discuss this proposition with my attorney, and that after I talk with one, we could either discuss it with him or discuss it with my attorney, if the attorney thinks it is a wise thing to do, but at the present time I have nothing more to say to you." 11:21 A.M. Lee Harvey Oswald Was Fatally Wounded by Jack Ruby -- daveus rattus yer friendly neighborhood ratman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Forman Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 (edited) redundant post deleted... Edited August 9, 2005 by Lee Forman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stephen Turner Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Lee, great post, thank you. It was this issue that first aroused my interest in the assassination, the strange non-motives trotted out time after time,its almost as if the assassins were cut from the same template,fresh from central casting pre packaged and shrink rapped for easy consumption. They all write journals, diarys, letters that help to incriminate them, they all have the same quasi-leftist back story, and to a man they are life's losers, embittered loners resentful of more powerful individuals. this of course is the genious of the "patsy trap"lefty losers who cant cut it in the land of boundless opportunity, in the eyes of many Americans this alone was enough to prove their guilt. To understand what a ready made indightment the term Communist was in the minds of ordinary Americans consider the rampant paranoia of the cold war, which in the 1960's was at its hight, no stronger epithet could have been used to ensure most Americans shook their heads, and turned their backs in revulsion. So in lieu of any real motives for these crimes what have we been fed,some letters to a spouse that have conviently been destroyed, a wedding ring left in a dish,some scribbling, that resembles automatic writing,in a diary,a mail ordered rifle,that could have been bought more easily over the counter, some laughably incriminating photo's and the communist mark of Cain carefully applied or insinuated. and as we all know, Communists are liars. The power of that smear is that forty plus years later, some still believe it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher T. George Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 (edited) Hi Lee Many thanks for posting this useful timeline for Lee Harvey Oswald's movements leading up to his arrest and interrogation, giving a blow by blow description of what he said in custody. Isn't it suspicious that although Oswald, suspected of having shot the President of the United States, was questioned multiple times by the Dallas police he was apparently not questioned by the U.S. Secret Service until just before he himself was assassinated, nearly 48 hours after his arrest? Or is it because he had not procured an attorney that the Secret Service stayed out of the picture? Nonetheless in a situation in which national security might be jeopardized by a possibly wide-ranging conspiracy, why was he not questioned by the SS immediately? See below for the relevant part of your post. All the best Chris &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& 11:15 A.M. [November 24] Inspector Thomas J. Kelley, U.S. Secret Service, Has Final Conversation with Lee Harvey Oswald Kelley approached Oswald, out of the hearing of others, except perhaps Captain Fritz's men, and said that as a Secret Service agent, he was anxious to talk with him as soon as he secured counsel, because Oswald was charged with the assassination of the President but had denied it. Oswald said, "I will be glad to discuss this proposition with my attorney, and that after I talk with one, we could either discuss it with him or discuss it with my attorney, if the attorney thinks it is a wise thing to do, but at the present time I have nothing more to say to you." 11:21 A.M. Lee Harvey Oswald Was Fatally Wounded by Jack Ruby Edited August 10, 2005 by Christopher T. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stephen Turner Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 In Lee's timeline Oswald states. "I told you I have'nt shot a rifle since the Marines, possibly a small bore, maybe a .22, but not anything larger since I left the Marines" Is there any evidence to support Oswald firing ANY gun,except Marina's unsupported claims of seeing Lee dry-firing the Carcano? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Root Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 Stephen I understand that Oswald belonged to a hunting club while in Russia. Jim Root Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stephen Turner Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 StephenI understand that Oswald belonged to a hunting club while in Russia. Jim Root <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Jim, I thank you for your labrinthine knowledge of this subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawn Meredith Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 Lee, great post, thank you. . They all write journals, diarys, letters that help to incriminate them, they all have the same quasi-leftist back story, and to a man they are life's losers, embittered loners resentful of more powerful individuals. this of course is the genious of the "patsy trap"lefty losers who cant cut it in the land of boundless opportunity, in the eyes of many Americans this alone was enough to prove their guilt. ____________________________ Lee, yes GREAT post. Stephen: This is exactly how I have always been able to tell a conspiracy from a true LN job. In fact at this point I daresay I cannot think of a single lone nut case that I believe is NOT conspiracy, including Reagan and John Lennon. Thoughts anyone? This may require a new thread. Dawn I am still dismayed and saddened by the early demise of Sirhan's atty, as I believe that this is by far the easiest case to solve. Teeter was dogged and knew his stuff, makes me wonder...I know people do die of cancer, naturally, even in this case. And we also have Jack Ruby who said he was INJECTED with it, dying very shortly after an appeallate court ruled that he had the right to a new trial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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