Harry Dean: Memoirs

[Ernie Lazar]

...

For YEARS, Ernie, you've been posting over the Internet that Harry Dean was a xxxx, and that you were certain of this because you could find no FBI files at all that mention Harry Dean [as an FBI informant].

Sincerely,

--Paul Trejo

"YEARS"?? You must use very unusual calendar Paul. Altogether, I have probably written that Harry is not credible perhaps 2 times before joining this discussion in Education Forum...

Yes, Ernie, for YEARS. The evidence is right here on this thread. (I've been so busy at work that I'm backlogged for weeks with my correspondence on EF.)

In any case, the post by Ernie Lazar, claiming that the FBI disavows any relationship with Harry Dean is post #123 of this thread. It is dated 8 June 2010. That's nearly four years ago. So, yes, Ernie -- for YEARS.

Yet since 2010 what do we find -- more than 60 FBI serials on Harry Dean from Los Angeles alone!

Sincerely,

--Paul Trejo

Your original message made it appear that for multiple YEARS, I have stated that Harry is a xxxx on repeated occasions. But that is NOT true. I made that evaluation ONE TIME. All subsequent discussions referencing "xxxx" were my answers to questions from YOU -- i.e. you wanted to know what the basis was for my statement or you criticized me for ever even suggesting such an unkind option.

I have repeatedly stated that there are many OTHER OPTIONS to explain various discrepancies in Harry's story - so stop deliberately mis-representing my position.

[Ernie Lazar]

...Since I have acquired numerous FBI files on actual informants it authorized to infiltrate both legitimate and subversive organizations -- and I am, therefore, intimately familiar with the type of data contained in such files -- it is 100% certain that Harry Dean is misrepresenting his "FBI" association in order to inflate his credentials.

...Incidentally, a while back I asked Harry if he joined the Minutemen under his own name and if he paid dues to them. The reason I asked is because I have a Minutemen membership list and Harry's name does not appear on it. However, this particular list was limited to dues-paying members.

Although the actual word, "xxxx," is used in this post #545 by Ernie, "misrepresenting" sure comes close.

Also, as regards that alleged "Minuteman membership list," there is one that has been circulating from the FBI for several years now, and many of us on the EF have seen it. It has a couple hundred names on it -- but there were many thousands upon thousands of Minutemen members. So, it is no surprise at all that Harry Dean's name is not on that list. That is old news.

Sincerely,

--Paul Trejo

The actual number of Minutemen "members" is subject to interpretation of what constitutes a "member".

Best estimates are that in the early years (1960-1962) DePugh may have had about 1500 members but that quickly diminished due to adverse publicity regarding MM members arrested for illegal gun sales, "plots" to murder prominent Americans -- including use of "biological agents", and also because of severe internal disputes within the organization. In fact, some people claim that DePugh arranged to have Troy Houghton murdered. It is a fact that nobody has seen or heard from Houghton since May 1967. Even his wife divorced him and re-married after his disappearance.

People who have specialized in researching MM history (such as Kansas City Star reporter J. Harry Jones Jr.) have pointed out that mailing lists used by DePugh often included many people who were never MM "members" -- but just folks who had at one time requested literature or perhaps subscribed to their newsletter, On Target. By 1965, best estimates (including by FBI) were that there were only between 400-800 actual MM "members" -- i.e. folks who filled out an application and paid monthly dues.

AND BTW -- "misleading" can be intentional or unintentional --- and that is what determines whether or not somebody should be considered a xxxx.

Synonyms for "misleading" include:

skew

embellish

overstate

slant

garble

color (as in shade the truth)

I used the word "misrepresent" in 2010, because I knew from all the records in my possession, that the FBI never "infiltrated" the JBS and it never inserted an "informant" into the JBS -- because they decided very early NOT to investigate the JBS.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Ernie Lazar

[Paul Trejo]

...3. What was the basis for Ernie referring to Harry as a xxxx? ...

A: The basis was multi-dimensional.

First, Harry had made assertions which were patently false such as referring to certain individuals as JBS members who never joined the JBS.

Then, Harry libeled the entire LDS Church.

And most importantly, FBI files in Ernie's possession contained no references whatsoever to Harry or to anybody matching Harry's description

AND the Assistant Director of the Los Angeles FBI field office categorically denied that Harry was EVER an informant, or EVER was instructed or encouraged by the FBI to do anything for them.

...What this dispute is about is whether or not Harry is being accurate, truthful, and factual about being an FBI "informant" or "undercover" operative or whatever other term you want to use -- who was instructed or directed or encouraged by the FBI to provide them with specific information about individuals and organizations -- including the JBS.

...Paul is a xxxx...!

What I have repeatedly stated is that Harry was never (as he falsely claims) an informant for the FBI inside the JBS at the instruction or encouragement of the FBI. Period.

...I have given my reasons for referring to Harry as a xxxx...

...My position is that based upon all available evidence, there is no reason to believe Harry's narrative -- at least in terms of his claims regarding his being an "informant" or "undercover" operative for the FBI about the JBS or its members. Nor have I seen anything to support Harry's contentions regarding Wesley Grapp.

This post, also, #551, is further evidence that Ernie plays fast and loose with accusations. It is an uphill battle trying to find corroborative documents for our side, but we're not giving up.

Sincerely,

--Paul Trejo

Edited February 20, 2014 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

...

With respect to Harry and Castro: ...My comment was intended to address...the underlying factors which made Harry RECEPTIVE to believing in Castro and FPCC and the J26M and then (a short time later) RECEPTIVE to believing and associating himself with right-wing extremist groups (JBS/Minutemen etc). In other words, why was Harry so consistently attracted to associating himself with extremist ideologies?

This is particularly significant when you consider that Harry claims he was buddies with Wesley Grapp and Harry claims he had a positive relationship with the FBI in both Chicago and Los Angeles....

...In fact, I have presented more specific details about this than you have! So, this reveals once again how YOU deliberately LIE because you PREFER to present your lies instead of engaging in principled debate or discussion. If you were intellectually honest (which you are not), you could have written something like this:

"Ernie, I recognize that you have presented considerable details here in EF about Harry's contacts with the FBI, when he presented them with information about FPCC or about pro-Castro individuals and organizations, but I think you may be missing the significance of..." (enter your argument here).

But you NEVER do that. Instead, you DELIBERATELY LIE --

...I simply said that Harry has been receptive to extremist political groups and ideologies for much of his adult life. Yes, Harry went to the FBI. But what did he take away from being burned by his pro-Castro experience?

... He just JUMPED immediately into YET ANOTHER extremist group -- one that arguably was exponentially worse than FPCC since FPCC leaders never considered murdering anybody and they never published books, pamphlets or sponsored speakers who slimed our entire state and national leadership over the past 50 or so years!

...Give us all a major break. What a xxxxing hypocrite! AFTER you receive 600,000+ pages of FBI (and other government agency) files, I will be happy to talk to you about what constitutes "enough" records.

...Harry...has been repeatedly interviewed (on radio, on TV, in newspapers) and he has told his story without any sort of criticism by the media. Instead, they have allowed Harry to present his story EVEN WHEN the FBI advised some of them that Harry was NOT (as he claimed) an undercover operative for the FBI.

...There is probably NOBODY on Planet Earth who has devoted more time, energy and personal financial resources to obtaining and sharing FBI files (and other agency files) than me.

...This is why I do not respect you Paul. Because you feel compelled to deliberately LIE about my motives and activities -- just because you disagree with my conclusions.

This post by Ernie, #579, provides further evidence of his willingness to use slander and accusation as argumentation.

Ernie has not been open-minded to my observations that:

(1) millions Americans joined the FPCC as well as the JBS and the Minutemen, and this is not in the slightest way incompatible with calling the FBI and providing them with information;

(2) the FPCC was just as capable of using weapons and performing crimes as the Minutemen -- and Harry Dean, who was inside the FPCC, would surely know that better than Ernie Lazar, who only knows the FPCC from the outside;

(3) Again -- Harry Dean never claimed he was an FBI agent -- but an FBI agent reported to Hoover that Harry did, and Ernie believes that FBI agent.

Instead, to address my assertions, Ernie resorts to the worst sort of name-calling.

Sincerely,

--Paul Trejo

Edited February 20, 2014 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

...You are projecting your own personality deficiencies upon me. I have no problem whatsoever with criticism. What I object to are your deliberate LIES.

...And you expect us to believe...that Harry NEVER ONCE asked Grapp or any other Los Angeles FBI Special Agent about the JBS or Minutemen -- i.e. whether or not they were responsible anti-communist organizations?

...Paul...you and Harry want us all to believe that Harry was providing information to FBI-Los Angeles about JBS and Minutemen -- but, simultaneously, you expect us to believe that the FBI never said ONE WORD to Harry about why they were interested in Harry's "information"??

You are an excellent example of what Lenin meant by his phrase "useful idiots". ...

It was not a "common characteristic" for someone within a period of 2 years to join pro-Castro groups and then join the JBS and Minutemen. Plus, as previously noted, we do not know anything about Harry's current political beliefs.

...I note for the record that you never QUOTE what I write. Not once. Not ever...

What was Harry's "purpose and intent" in associating himself with both radical left and radical right groups -- especially one right after the other? How could he be totally unaware of the prevailing sentiments of virtually the entire anti-communist and conservative movements with respect to organizations like the JBS and Minutemen? Why was Harry attracted to such extreme groups?

...I am sorry I offended your delicate sensibilities. . If you stop lying about me, I will stop telling the truth about you.

...What is being done here does NOT constitute "attacks". Instead, it is the process known as "witness impeachment" which is a standard procedure which is used as a tool for discovery of truth. It comes as no surprise that you have no familiarity with this standard procedure because you previously have acknowledged that you prefer a different method which you describe as giving all testimony "the benefit of the doubt"....

I regret that you are ignorant of these standard procedures and you think that they amount to "attacks". But your comment reveals that you have NO ABILITY to evaluate evidence and, in fact, you are HOSTILE toward the very process of discovering truth.

I offer to the Forum a selection of phrases from another recent post by Ernie (post #583), and I note for the record that:

1. There is really nothing very unusual about somebody belonging to an extremist group and also contacting the FBI with information;

2. Regarding Harry's current and lifelong political beliefs -- Harry has always been a moderate Republican. He was a volunteer in his local Republical Party in Southern California, as well as a family man and a Scout Leader for the Boy Scouts of America. (Only somebody ignorant of Southern California Republican politics in 1963 would imagine that they were all choir boys.)

3. I finally found the time to quote Ernie Lazar.

Sincerely,

--Paul Trejo

<edit typos>

Edited February 20, 2014 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

FBI documents already released in 1985 to Mark Allen make it very clear that employees of the Joe Pyne program along with reporters and publishers from several southern California newspapers contacted the FBI to inquire if Harry was (as he claimed) an "agent of the FBI" who was an undercover operative for the Bureau.

There were no "hostile reports" by the FBI (your deliberate mischaracterization). Instead, the FBI simply answered inquiries about Harry and they made it clear that he had never been asked or instructed or encouraged by the FBI to perform any service for them. And, in fact, there are FBI memos which state that even Harry himself acknowledged to the FBI that he falsely described himself when he made contacts with some of these programs or journalists -- because he was trying to interest them in his story.

...The FBI was not "displeased" that Harry told his story in the public media. The FBI's problem with Harry was his false description of his relationship to the FBI.

...You are making hyperbolic assumptions here which available evidence does not support....So much of the "interest" in Dean (by Los Angeles field) arises from the numerous attempts by Dean to obtain publicity for his story and the controversies which developed over Harry's mis-representation of himself.

What do I think will be the greatest value in receiving the Los Angeles file?

1. There may be copies of Chicago field memos that are not contained in the HQ main file docs on Mary Ferrell's website

2. There may be more details regarding Harry's alleged contacts with Los Angeles Special Agents -- including Wesley Grapp

3. There may be copies of letters which Harry wrote to Los Angeles FBI (or to other parties) OR copies of contact forms which Los Angeles Agents filled out to summarize their contacts with Harry

4. There may be some kind of specific reference to Harry reporting info to Los Angeles on Minutemen, Alpha 66, JBS, etc. -- or, if not, then that too would be significant

5. Lastly, there may be references to OTHER FBI file numbers that contain references to Harry

This post from Ernie Lazar (#601) was largely a response to my claim that the Los Angeles FBI was clearly interested in Harry Dean from 1962 through 1967 with more than 60 serials containing more than a hundred pages. I noted that this volume reflected so much interest that we must ask the question, Why?

Although Ernie Lazar wishes to tell us that the Chicago FBI destroyed its records on Harry Dean because he was "a very minor annoyance" (post #668) who falsely represented himself as an FBI agent, Ernie will also hedge his bets!

Ernie wouldn't like to see me out-guess him about the possible contents of the Los Angeles cache of Harry Dean serials and pages, so he rushed to add his own guess. As we see above, Ernie guesses the possible contents might be:

1. Copies of Chicago FBI field memos.

2. Details regarding Harry's contacts with Los Angeles SACs -- including Wesley Grapp

3. Letters that Harry wrote to Los Angeles FBI or others

3.1. Contact forms that Los Angeles FBI agents filled out to summarize a contact with Harry

4. Specific references to Harry reporting info to Los Angeles FBI about the Minutemen, Alpha 66, JBS, FPCC, Castro, and so on. (Or, if none of these, then a margin for the "very minor annoyance" wager.)

5. References to other FBI file numbers that contain references to Harry.

There are 60 serials containing more than a hundred pages on Harry Dean -- and Ernie Lazar, who wishes us to believe that the FBI in Chicago, Los Angeles and Headquarters regarded Harry Dean as "a very minor "annoyance" who "misrepresented himself" as an FBI agent -- nevertheless has to admit that the FBI in Los Angeles maintained 60 serials on this "very minor annoyance" in over a five year period.

I consider this to be a self-contradiction in Ernie's evaluation -- as though he simply wants to be on both sides of the bet.

Time will tell. When we finally see the Los Angeles FBI serials on Harry Dean, we will be able to see clearly if Ernie Lazar was right or wrong.

Sincerely,

--Paul Trejo

<edit typos>

Edited February 20, 2014 by Paul Trejo

[Ernie Lazar]

...3. What was the basis for Ernie referring to Harry as a xxxx? ...

A: The basis was multi-dimensional.

First, Harry had made assertions which were patently false such as referring to certain individuals as JBS members who never joined the JBS.

Then, Harry libeled the entire LDS Church.

And most importantly, FBI files in Ernie's possession contained no references whatsoever to Harry or to anybody matching Harry's description

AND the Assistant Director of the Los Angeles FBI field office categorically denied that Harry was EVER an informant, or EVER was instructed or encouraged by the FBI to do anything for them.

...What this dispute is about is whether or not Harry is being accurate, truthful, and factual about being an FBI "informant" or "undercover" operative or whatever other term you want to use -- who was instructed or directed or encouraged by the FBI to provide them with specific information about individuals and organizations -- including the JBS.

...Paul is a xxxx...!

What I have repeatedly stated is that Harry was never (as he falsely claims) an informant for the FBI inside the JBS at the instruction or encouragement of the FBI. Period.

...I have given my reasons for referring to Harry as a xxxx...

...My position is that based upon all available evidence, there is no reason to believe Harry's narrative -- at least in terms of his claims regarding his being an "informant" or "undercover" operative for the FBI about the JBS or its members. Nor have I seen anything to support Harry's contentions regarding Wesley Grapp.

This post, also, #551, is further evidence that Ernie plays fast and loose with accusations. It is an uphill battle trying to find corroborative documents for our side, but we're not giving up.

Sincerely,

--Paul Trejo

All you have done in this message Paul is confirm what I have already said.

I made my "xxxx" charge against Harry a very long time ago (ONE TIME) and I explained my reasons. Then, subsequently, I replied to your YOUR questions or criticisms of me for that earlier statement of mine.

In short: if YOU had not repeatedly resurrected the issue -- demanding to know why I used the word "xxxx" -- there would have been no further discussion along those lines.

So, here's a hint: IF you stop bringing it up (as you did in this message), I will not be the person using the word "xxxx" to describe something Harry has said or written UNLESS some NEW information comes along (such as perhaps, from his L.A. file) which makes such a charge an entirely reasonable description.

I also note for the record, that in recent messages, YOU have given us logically fallacious FALSE "either/or" alternatives regarding Harry's statements or memory lapses --- so please stop defaming Harry by your insistence that we adopt YOUR warped reasoning which requires us to always choose between two polar opposite explanations: i.e. he is truthful OR a xxxx

[Ernie Lazar]

...

With respect to Harry and Castro: ...My comment was intended to address...the underlying factors which made Harry RECEPTIVE to believing in Castro and FPCC and the J26M and then (a short time later) RECEPTIVE to believing and associating himself with right-wing extremist groups (JBS/Minutemen etc). In other words, why was Harry so consistently attracted to associating himself with extremist ideologies?

This is particularly significant when you consider that Harry claims he was buddies with Wesley Grapp and Harry claims he had a positive relationship with the FBI in both Chicago and Los Angeles....

...In fact, I have presented more specific details about this than you have! So, this reveals once again how YOU deliberately LIE because you PREFER to present your lies instead of engaging in principled debate or discussion. If you were intellectually honest (which you are not), you could have written something like this:

"Ernie, I recognize that you have presented considerable details here in EF about Harry's contacts with the FBI, when he presented them with information about FPCC or about pro-Castro individuals and organizations, but I think you may be missing the significance of..." (enter your argument here).

But you NEVER do that. Instead, you DELIBERATELY LIE --

...I simply said that Harry has been receptive to extremist political groups and ideologies for much of his adult life. Yes, Harry went to the FBI. But what did he take away from being burned by his pro-Castro experience?

... He just JUMPED immediately into YET ANOTHER extremist group -- one that arguably was exponentially worse than FPCC since FPCC leaders never considered murdering anybody and they never published books, pamphlets or sponsored speakers who slimed our entire state and national leadership over the past 50 or so years!

...Give us all a major break. What a xxxxing hypocrite! AFTER you receive 600,000+ pages of FBI (and other government agency) files, I will be happy to talk to you about what constitutes "enough" records.

...Harry...has been repeatedly interviewed (on radio, on TV, in newspapers) and he has told his story without any sort of criticism by the media. Instead, they have allowed Harry to present his story EVEN WHEN the FBI advised some of them that Harry was NOT (as he claimed) an undercover operative for the FBI.

...There is probably NOBODY on Planet Earth who has devoted more time, energy and personal financial resources to obtaining and sharing FBI files (and other agency files) than me.

...This is why I do not respect you Paul. Because you feel compelled to deliberately LIE about my motives and activities -- just because you disagree with my conclusions.

This post by Ernie, #579, provides further evidence of his willingness to use slander and accusation as argumentation.

Ernie has not been open-minded to my observations that:

(1) millions Americans joined the FPCC as well as the JBS and the Minutemen, and this is not in the slightest way incompatible with calling the FBI and providing them with information;

You are presenting false information.

(1) "Millions": did not join the groups you cite.

Even if you combine the membership all three groups, the TOTAL number of members was never more than about 125,000. IF, HOWEVER, you meant to write that "millions" of Americans were "influenced" by those groups -- then that would be correct.

(2) I am open-minded to ANYTHING you write as long as it is fact-based and substantiated -- and not just your personal opinions. Now, with respect to your eBook, neither I or anybody else can be "open-minded" to believing something that has no documentation of any kind whatsoever.

(2) the FPCC was just as capable of using weapons and performing crimes as the Minutemen -- and Harry Dean, who was inside the FPCC, would surely know that better than Ernie Lazar, who only knows the FPCC from the outside;

What does your comment mean? What FPCC capability are you referring to? The Minutemen actually did plot and carry out numerous state and federal crimes. There are numerous court proceedings which you can look up.

FOR EXAMPLE: Here are 231 federal case citations which discuss Robert DePugh and some of his associates:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=DePugh&btnG=&as_sdt=2003

Now it's your turn Paul. Give us a comparable listing of crimes committed by FPCC members (as representatives of their organization)

This gives us yet another example of how you make the most astonishing or bold assertions without EVER providing substantiation for your claims. THAT is the difference between you and me. This has NOTHING to do with me describing somebody as a xxxx or any other personal disputes between us. It has EVERYTHING to do with your CHRONIC inability to provide fact-based evidence to support your assertions (such as your "millions" comment above).

I am totally willing to consider any evidence you want to provide, but when you make these broad sweeping allegations, you have a responsibility to provide EVIDENCE -- not just your bold naked assertion. And by "evidence", I mean (at a minimum) a bibliographic citation.

(3) Again -- Harry Dean never claimed he was an FBI agent -- but an FBI agent reported to Hoover that Harry did, and Ernie believes that FBI agent.

Yet another deliberate misrepresentation.

It was NOT "an FBI Agent" who made the claim. It was several NON-FBI employees who contacted the FBI. And it was HARRY HIMSELF in answer to a question from Snyder.

It is not what I choose to believe. It is what documentary evidence shows.

I know you want us to burn all FBI investigative files and destroy all radio/TV program transcripts so that you are free to make any assertions you want without any possibility of contradiction -- but that is not how historical research proceeds.

Instead, to address my assertions, Ernie resorts to the worst sort of name-calling.

Give me an example of ONE assertion you have made which I have never "addressed". You may not like my answers because they conflict with what you prefer to believe, but that is not the same thing as me not addressing your assertions.

There are literally DOZENS of messages where I asked you very specific questions or I provided information in reply to your comments which you then totally ignored -- so you have quite the nerve Paul.

As merely one example:

Go back to your message #536 when you made a very bold accusation, i.e. that since 1965 the FBI has "persecuted" Harry. I then challenged you to produce a comprehensive list of what you consider examples of such "persecution" so all of us could understand what types of activities you are referring to. You stated that you could not invest the time to do that. So, then, I suggested that you could give us a "greatest hits" version -- a synopsis of the most egregious examples, because that might only take about an hour of your time to compile. But you refused to do that too.

So, here we have an example of a major point which YOU attempted to make and I INVITED you to give us your best evidence in support of your assertion but you refused to do so!

But NOW you claim I am not addressing your assertions and I resort to the "worst sort of name calling". Well, Paul, if you want to be taken seriously, then you need to learn to present EVIDENCE, not just your personal opinions. If you REFUSE to present EVIDENCE -- then I am entitled (as is everybody else) to draw appropriate conclusions from your refusal.

Sincerely,

--Paul Trejo

My replies are underneath your comments

Edited February 20, 2014 by Ernie Lazar

[Ernie Lazar]

...You are projecting your own personality deficiencies upon me. I have no problem whatsoever with criticism. What I object to are your deliberate LIES.

...And you expect us to believe...that Harry NEVER ONCE asked Grapp or any other Los Angeles FBI Special Agent about the JBS or Minutemen -- i.e. whether or not they were responsible anti-communist organizations?

...Paul...you and Harry want us all to believe that Harry was providing information to FBI-Los Angeles about JBS and Minutemen -- but, simultaneously, you expect us to believe that the FBI never said ONE WORD to Harry about why they were interested in Harry's "information"??

You are an excellent example of what Lenin meant by his phrase "useful idiots". ...

It was not a "common characteristic" for someone within a period of 2 years to join pro-Castro groups and then join the JBS and Minutemen. Plus, as previously noted, we do not know anything about Harry's current political beliefs.

...I note for the record that you never QUOTE what I write. Not once. Not ever...

What was Harry's "purpose and intent" in associating himself with both radical left and radical right groups -- especially one right after the other? How could he be totally unaware of the prevailing sentiments of virtually the entire anti-communist and conservative movements with respect to organizations like the JBS and Minutemen? Why was Harry attracted to such extreme groups?

...I am sorry I offended your delicate sensibilities. . If you stop lying about me, I will stop telling the truth about you.

...What is being done here does NOT constitute "attacks". Instead, it is the process known as "witness impeachment" which is a standard procedure which is used as a tool for discovery of truth. It comes as no surprise that you have no familiarity with this standard procedure because you previously have acknowledged that you prefer a different method which you describe as giving all testimony "the benefit of the doubt"....

I regret that you are ignorant of these standard procedures and you think that they amount to "attacks". But your comment reveals that you have NO ABILITY to evaluate evidence and, in fact, you are HOSTILE toward the very process of discovering truth.

I offer to the Forum a selection of phrases from another recent post by Ernie (post #583), and I note for the record that:

1. There is really nothing very unusual about somebody belonging to an extremist group and also contacting the FBI with information;

You make two distinct assertions here, so let's break them down:

(1) "Not unusual to belong to extremist group":

Well, if it was not "unusual" then we would not describe them as "extremist". They would be mainstream!

Actually, very very few Americans joined extremist organizations because Americans, by nature, are NOT highly ideological people (which extremists, left or right, always are).

Americans are, as most historians point out, a very pragmatic people. Churchill once complained that Americans have no sense of history and he was right! By nature we are an optimistic forward-looking people and we do not dwell upon our past because we are more concerned about our present and our future. But extremist groups (particularly right wing groups) ALWAYS insist that our golden age existed in some previous time period and they insist that we have currently lost our way because we are corrupting our basic founding principles.

Extremist groups always trash our modern political leaders, our government officials, our opinion-makers. and many of our institutions. They usually describe them as "enemies" who "plot" to destroy our freedom and our sovereignty. It is precisely because of such extremist blow-torch, take no prisoners, highly ideological rhetoric that the overwhelming majority of Americans are never receptive to their arguments -- which is why so few join extremist groups.

Even at its peak, in 1944, the Communist Party in our country only had 80,000 members -- which, incidentally, matches the peak level of JBS membership. AND, most significantly, the FBI's Security Index which was designed to track all extremists (right or left) who represented any sort of security concern never exceeded more than about 18,000 people. So, Paul. your assumption is mistaken.

(2) Not Uncommon For Persons Who Joined An Extremist Group To Contact FBI

I presume from the context of your comment that you mean that large numbers of people who joined extremist organizations then decided they made a mistake so they contacted the FBI. Some (like Harry) wanted to "clear" their names. And others thought it was their patriotic duty.

But that would be an incorrect assumption. Most people were too embarrassed to openly acknowledge their mistake. Instead, they just wanted to get on with their lives and forget what happened.

In addition, what is striking from FBI investigative files on extremists (and in FBI monographs used for training purposes which discuss these matters), is that most individuals who joined extremist groups (left or right) did not want to place themselves in the position of having to identify friends or associates who had also participated in extremist groups. In other words, the relatively few people who contacted the FBI sometimes were willing to discuss their own personal journey into political extremism but they were very reluctant to say anything that would get someone else in trouble. They certainly did not want to be responsible for the FBI contacting their friends or associates nor did they want to place them in the position of being forced to testify before a legislative investigating committee and another major concern was perhaps even putting their employment in jeopardy.

2. Regarding Harry's current and lifelong political beliefs -- Harry has always been a moderate Republican. He was a volunteer in his local Republical Party in Southern California, as well as a family man and a Scout Leader for the Boy Scouts of America. (Only somebody ignorant of Southern California Republican politics in 1963 would imagine that they were all choir boys.)

Nobody knows what Harry's political beliefs actually are. No "moderate Republican" joined the JBS and Minutemen or if they did (because they were not familiar with the underlying predicates of JBS ideology), they certainly quickly became aware and terminated their membership.

For example: some people joined the JBS in 1959 or 1960 -- but as soon as the publicity about Welch's comments concerning Eisenhower became public knowledge, they terminated their membership -- because they TRULY WERE "moderate Republicans" who were offended by Welch's horrific accusations. Harry was never offended by such accusations. He EMBRACED them. See his comments in your eBook!

The people (like Harry) who joined in 1962 or thereafter, were the "true believers" -- because they had already been exposed to relentless nationwide publicity about what the JBS actually believed and they had read the comments which Welch made about Eisenhower.

LET's BE VERY CLEAR: No "moderate Republican" joined the JBS in 1962 or thereafter because the entire Republican establishment had denounced the JBS by that time. AND major very conservative groups (such as the American Legion's National Americanism Commission) had been in contact with the FBI and they were asked to assist the FBI in combating right-wing extremists like the JBS -- which they did.

3. I finally found the time to quote Ernie Lazar.

Sincerely,

--Paul Trejo

<edit typos>

MY REPLIES ARE UNDERNEATH YOUR COMMENTS

Edited February 20, 2014 by Ernie Lazar

[Ernie Lazar]

FBI documents already released in 1985 to Mark Allen make it very clear that employees of the Joe Pyne program along with reporters and publishers from several southern California newspapers contacted the FBI to inquire if Harry was (as he claimed) an "agent of the FBI" who was an undercover operative for the Bureau.

There were no "hostile reports" by the FBI (your deliberate mischaracterization). Instead, the FBI simply answered inquiries about Harry and they made it clear that he had never been asked or instructed or encouraged by the FBI to perform any service for them. And, in fact, there are FBI memos which state that even Harry himself acknowledged to the FBI that he falsely described himself when he made contacts with some of these programs or journalists -- because he was trying to interest them in his story.

...The FBI was not "displeased" that Harry told his story in the public media. The FBI's problem with Harry was his false description of his relationship to the FBI.

...You are making hyperbolic assumptions here which available evidence does not support....So much of the "interest" in Dean (by Los Angeles field) arises from the numerous attempts by Dean to obtain publicity for his story and the controversies which developed over Harry's mis-representation of himself.

What do I think will be the greatest value in receiving the Los Angeles file?

1. There may be copies of Chicago field memos that are not contained in the HQ main file docs on Mary Ferrell's website

2. There may be more details regarding Harry's alleged contacts with Los Angeles Special Agents -- including Wesley Grapp

3. There may be copies of letters which Harry wrote to Los Angeles FBI (or to other parties) OR copies of contact forms which Los Angeles Agents filled out to summarize their contacts with Harry

4. There may be some kind of specific reference to Harry reporting info to Los Angeles on Minutemen, Alpha 66, JBS, etc. -- or, if not, then that too would be significant

5. Lastly, there may be references to OTHER FBI file numbers that contain references to Harry

This post from Ernie Lazar (#601) was largely a response to my claim that the Los Angeles FBI was clearly interested in Harry Dean from 1962 through 1967 with more than 60 serials containing more than a hundred pages. I noted that this volume reflected so much interest that we must ask the question, Why?

Not accurate. My response was not limited to Los Angeles. I also challenge your descriptive word "interest". The FBI had no "interest" in Harry. They were drawn into a controversy over Harry's assertions because outside entities contacted the FBI and the FBI responded to those inquiries. [The outside entities include the CIA contact, and contacts by Los Angeles area media--some of which was syndicated nationwide. And I suspect that the Los Angeles file may even contain correspondence from ordinary citizens which inquired about Harry.]

Although Ernie Lazar wishes to tell us that the Chicago FBI destroyed its records on Harry Dean because he was "a very minor annoyance" (post #668) who falsely represented himself as an FBI agent, Ernie will also hedge his bets!

There you go AGAIN!

I have NEVER written or hinted that Chicago destroyed its file because they believed Harry was a "minor annoyance".

I said that Chicago (like every other field office) destroys files when they believe there is no SIGNIFICANT INFORMATION in the file which deserves to be locally preserved. Usually, anything significant would have already been sent to HQ (or to other field offices that still had an ongoing interest) but Chicago apparently believed they no longer needed to maintain an open file on Harry because Harry was no longer living in their territory.

Ernie wouldn't like to see me out-guess him about the possible contents of the Los Angeles cache of Harry Dean serials and pages, so he rushed to add his own guess. As we see above, Ernie guesses the possible contents might be:

I don't care what your "guess" is. You are delusional if you think I factor into my analysis anything which pops into your head!

My previous comment was meant to illustrate the types of documents which I thought COULD be in the Los Angeles file and, if they are, they would significantly add to our knowledge. I did not "rush" to anything and I certainly didn't think I was in some sort of competition with you.

1. Copies of Chicago FBI field memos.

2. Details regarding Harry's contacts with Los Angeles SACs -- including Wesley Grapp

3. Letters that Harry wrote to Los Angeles FBI or others

3.1. Contact forms that Los Angeles FBI agents filled out to summarize a contact with Harry

4. Specific references to Harry reporting info to Los Angeles FBI about the Minutemen, Alpha 66, JBS, FPCC, Castro, and so on. (Or, if none of these, then a margin for the "very minor annoyance" wager.)

5. References to other FBI file numbers that contain references to Harry.

There are 60 serials containing more than a hundred pages on Harry Dean -- and Ernie Lazar, who wishes us to believe that the FBI in Chicago, Los Angeles and Headquarters regarded Harry Dean as "a very minor "annoyance" who "misrepresented himself" as an FBI agent -- nevertheless has to admit that the FBI in Los Angeles maintained 60 serials on this "very minor annoyance" in over a five year period.

Paul, it is ONLY your profound ignorance that attaches so much importance to the QUANTITY of serials in a file as being significant. Nor did I "have to admit" anything. You ALWAYS attach these sinister insinuations to your comments as though there is something dishonest about what I believe.

Keep in mind, that it was ME (not you) that posted into this thread, the NARA inventories of their FBI files on Harry. ME--not you!

Let me give you a clear example which even you should be able to understand.

I have previously told you that the FBI HQ main file on the JBS is 12,000 pages. So, in your scheme of things, that means that the FBI was exponentially more "interested" in the JBS than in Harry Dean. Using YOUR calculus, the FBI was about 50 times more interested in the JBS (because Harry's Los Angeles file is only about 250 pages). So, according to your analysis, that MUST mean there would be THOUSANDS of serials in the FBI's JBS file which would reveal all sorts of juicy stuff about the JBS.

However, about 90% of the JBS HQ file consists of

(1) incoming correspondence (handwritten or typed) from alarmed Americans who asked Hoover whether or not the assertions made by the JBS were true

(2) incoming correspondence (handwritten or typed) which asked Hoover if the FBI considered the JBS to be a legitimate patriotic anti-Communist organization or in any way subversive

(3) the Bureau-typed "true copies" of all the incoming correspondence which was handwritten (YES, the Bureau's policy was to type a copy of each incoming communication that was hand-written so that means you have DUPLICATE copies of all those letters in the file --- the original handwritten copy and then the Bureau-typed copy PLUS

(4) the copies of mailing envelopes used by correspondents (YES, the Bureau actually copied most of the mailing envelopes showing return addresses)

(5) copies of newspaper articles which correspondents enclosed with their letters to Hoover

(6) the file copies of each reply "by Hoover" (actually in almost all cases, Hoover never personally responded) and 95% of those replies were the standard FBI "files confidential" response stating that the FBI was an investigative agency and all information in its files was confidential.

In short, there are only a handful of serials among those 12,000 pages that actually contain any significant information --such as the preliminary background reports about Welch from Boston field office. And then there are serials which reflect the FBI's analysis of assertions made by the JBS in its literature. But most of the file is routine incoming and outgoing correspondence -- although the file copy notations are VERY interesting because they often provide clues to file numbers on other subjects.

I consider this to be a self-contradiction in Ernie's evaluation -- as though he simply wants to be on both sides of the bet.

I have not the remotest clue what you mean by "self-contradiction". Perhaps you would care to spell it out for me?

Time will tell. When we finally see the Los Angeles FBI serials on Harry Dean, we will be able to see clearly if Ernie Lazar was right or wrong.

Sincerely,

--Paul Trejo

<edit typos>

MY REPLIES APPEAR UNDERNEATH YOUR COMMENTS

Edited February 20, 2014 by Ernie Lazar

[Ernie Lazar]

UPDATES RE: MY FOIA REQUESTS ON HARRY DEAN

1. Today, I placed my order for Harry's Los Angeles field file and I asked that it be released on a CD or DVD. I might get lucky and receive the file within the next 2-3 weeks.

2. All of Harry's FBI files which are now archived at NARA, are available for public viewing (or copying) so if anybody lives in the vicinity of College Park MD or plans to be in that area (or has friends in that area), you can obtain copies of all his files -- for 80 cents per page (paper or CD/DVD).

3. After the FBI informed me that all of Harry's main HQ and field office files had been transferred to NARA (except Chicago which was destroyed in May 1990), I submitted to them an amended FOIA Public Interest Disclosure request to find out about documents which may still exist in other FBI locations -- such as Detroit, Oklahoma City, San Diego and Ottawa Canada (among others).

4. I also asked for expedited processing (to prevent the FBI from destroying or transferring responsive records). But the FBI denied my request for expedited processing so I am appealing their denial.

5. In addition, I am considering submitting a new request to the "Office of Government Information Services" because they offer mediation services to resolve disputes between FOIA requesters and Federal agencies as an alternative to litigation.

6. Lastly, I also have FOIA requests pending for such subjects as FPCC in Chicago (which I strongly suspect has also been transferred to NARA) and, as previously mentioned, Wesley Grapp's file (which is almost 3000 pages), the remainder of Guy Banister's file, additional documents pertaining to Guy Galbadon, Loran Hall, Gerald Patrick Hemming and more topics. I have already been informed about other files which now have been transferred to NARA -- including the Dallas field file on Walker along with all of the field files pertaining to the October 1962 incident at University of MS. Several Minutemen field files are also now at NARA (but I received major portions of many of them 20 or more years ago).

[Ernie Lazar]

Since Paul continually repeats his specious argument about me supposedly relying upon FBI Agents memos -- I think it would be useful to re-post one of my earlier replies which, apparently, Paul never bothered to read....so here it is...

Wrong again Paul. It isn't "the FBI" as an amorphous boogeyman institution. It is the individual Special Agents (unconnected to each other, over different periods of time, and even in different cities) who interviewed people or who were contacted by all the individuals who were inquiring about Harry Dean because THEY (not the FBI) had personal contacts with Harry.

And, incidentally, do you accept the memos written by FBI Agents which report on their conversations with Harry regarding FPCC or J26M? Even though we have no copy of the text of the actual literal conversation?

If I find a memo from Wesley Grapp which conforms to something that Harry has said, will you accept Grapp's written memo -- even though there is no copy of the literal text of his conversation with Harry? Of course you will! Your ONLY dispute is with evidence that conflicts with whatever you want readers to believe about Harry!

[Paul Trejo]

Dear Pat Speer,

I write to you as Moderator, so that you might contact John Simkin for Harry Dean and me. We have tried to contact Mr. Simkin without success regarding the Spartacus web pages that speak about Harry Dean. They are inaccurate, and they portray Harry Dean in a poor light -- Harry told me that he objects to them.

Although some effort was made last year to correct the errors, several errors still remain. There are three Spartacus web pages that spread the disinformation that about Harry Dean. They are:

http://www.spartacus...investBirch.htm

http://www.spartacus...uk/JFKdeanH.htm

These three Spartacus web pages print variations on the following false text:

----------------------Begin Spartacus web page ---------------------------

Harry Dean was an undercover agent for the Federal Bureau of Investigation. In 1962 he infiltrated the John Birch Society. He later reported that leading members of the society, including John Rousselot and Edwin Walker, hired two gunman, Eladio del Valle and Loran Hall, to kill President John F. Kennedy.

----------------------End Spartacus web page ---------------------------

This information about Harry Dean is untrue, and Harry Dean has been claiming it is untrue for nearly 40 years. Harry never even heard of Eladio del Valle until these lies about him were published by W.R. Morris in 1975 in the made-for-fiction writing, The Men Behind the Guns.

Although W.R. Morris claimed that Harry Dean was his co-author, that was a deliberate deception. Harry Dean broke off relations with W.R. Morris before the publication of that book, precisely because W.R. Morris would not stop making up fiction and putting Harry Dean's name on it, no matter how many times Harry Dean told W.R. Morris to stop doing that.

Unfortunately, the stories by W.R. Morris have formed a "Harry Dean Legend" that is hard to reverse -- but Harry Dean has been trying to reverse it for decades. Harry wrote his own manuscript, Crosstrails, in 1990, which sets the record straight. It has sold very few copies.

Please ask John Simkin (whom I presume is responsible for these pages) to act to correct this incorrect data. Harry Dean is still alive, and can still be asked directly for the precise nature of his claims -- we don't need to guess.

In case John Simkin wants some text that Harry would approve, please forward this:

----------------------- BEGIN PROPOSED SPARTACUS TEXT

In 1965 Harry J. Dean went on The Joe Pyne Show (Los Angeles, KTTV) to make public the reports that he shared with the FBI before and after the JFK assassination about a plot that apparently originated within the Southern California John Birch Society.

JBS members Ex-General Edwin Walker, Congressman John Rousselot, war-hero Gabby Gabaldon, and militant mercenaries Loran Hall and Larry Howard included Harry Dean in their September 1963 plot to assassinate JFK, and to blame Lee Harvey Oswald for the killing. In that Joe Pyne program, Harry Dean told Marguerite Oswald that he believed her son was innocent of killing JFK. Harry Dean still sticks to that story today, despite continual opposition.

In 1975 W.R. Morris took Harry's story and made a fiction of it, pretending Harry was an FBI and a CIA undercover agent, and introducing the figure of Eladio del Valle. This fiction (The Men Behind the Guns, 1975) is still circulated widely as the Harry Dean story, although it remains pure fiction.

------------------- END PROPOSED SPARTACUS TEXT

W.R. Morris went around the USA for years lying about Harry Dean, and claiming that he spoke for Harry Dean. W.R. Morris even hired an actor to pretend to be Harry Dean, to spew his disinformation wider and wider.

Please don't allow the Spartacus site to continue this defamation of Harry Dean.

Best regards,
--Paul Trejo, MA

Edited February 20, 2014 by Paul Trejo

[Harry J.Dean]

OUESTION

Has Ernie Lazar been helpful or useful to Historians, JFK researchers or individuals

with interest in the JFK Assassination.

Your opinions are requested, your input will be appreciated and valuable. Do not

be fearful, the 'wordsmith' LAZAR is awaiting your daring opinions.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Harry J.Dean

[Larry Hancock]

I think Ernie has been quite knowledgeable and is a very valuable source on FBI procedures, practices and protocols. I thought I was reasonably well informed in many areas of their documentation and process but he is far more so - given that I always value his comments and analysis.

-- Larry

Edited February 21, 2014 by Larry Hancock