Harry Dean: Memoirs

Paul Trejo · March 20, 2014

Paul,

You wrote:

"According to Harry Dean - and Silvia Odio - Loran Hall and Larry Howard accompanied Lee Harvey Oswald to Mexico City during the final week of September, 1962." [emphasis added]

I'm fascinated by the possibility that these three traveled together to Mexico City in late September, 1962. Could you please elaborate on this or point me in the direction of an earlier post that covers this interesting allegation?

Did you mean to say 1963? If so, was Odio basing her knowledge (of this 1963 MC trip by the dynamic trio) on what she learned from them during the infamous "Odio Incident"?

(I wonder if either Hall or Howard could speak "terrible, hardly recognizable Russian"...)

Thanks,

--Tommy

Right, Tommy, I meant 1963. Thanks for catching my typo (which I corrected).

To elaborate -- we have FBI documents (on the Mary Ferrell site) that describe multiple trips taken by Loran Hall and Larry Howard from Florida through New Orleans to California and back again -- running weapons and medical supplies (drugs) to support continuing raids against Castro's Cuba.

The FBI also named William Seymour as one of the gun-runners in that crew. The connecting link for all three figures was that they were all members of Interpen, led by Gerry Patrick Hemming. The FBI also names Hemming in connection with Hall, Howard and Seymour.

The FBI also tells about Hemming and Hall pawning some of their possessions in California in late 1963, including Hemming's own rifle -- and Loran Hall later picking up Hemming's rifle from the pawn broker -- without telling Hemming! This made Hemming furious -- and about seven years ago, on this very Forum, Gerry Patrick Hemming retold that story with anger still seething for Loran Hall.

Hemming later became more enraged because this happened shortly before 22 November 1963 (when Hemming was allegedly in Florida), and on 22 November 1963, Hemming panicked because he had information that Loran Hall was in Dallas on 22 November 1963 -- with Hemming's rifle!

As for Silvia Odio -- my understanding is that she never mentions the Mexico City trip. The three travelers tell her that they drove in from New Orleans, and they also tell her that they cannot stay in Dallas -- but they never tell Silvia their destination. So, Silvia never guesses that they are on their way to Mexico City -- she only knows that they will be leaving Dallas soon.

Finally, as for the role of Hall and Howard inside Mexico City, aside from drivers and escorts -- Harry Dean has very few details to share, but only some suggestions from what he was told in Southern California.

For Harry Dean, there is no guarantee that Lee Harvey Oswald was ever at the Cuban and Russian Embassies in Mexico City. He might have been -- that is, Marina Oswald said that Lee took many newspaper clippings to Mexico City to "prove" that he was an officer of the FPCC (because FPCC officers were allowed into Cuba instantly).

However, that might have taken only an hour or so to flop -- because the Cuban Embassy had its own list of FPCC Officers, and since Lee Harvey Oswald was not on the officlal List, the clerks would only laugh in his face. They would instantly know that Oswald was a provacateur.

At this point (or even before this point) actors and impersonators could pretend to be Oswald at the Embassies.for whatever games the CIA wanted to play. (Hall and Howard were not needed at the Embassies -- there were plenty of CIA rogues there that day.)

All that is irrelevant for Harry Dean's account in which the key drama was about a group called DACA (Drive Against Communist Aggression) that was set up in Mexico City by Guy Gabaldon (with funding from the JBS).

The real reason that Hall and Howard drove Lee Oswald to Mexico City during the final week of September, 1963, according to Harry Dean, was to meet with Guy Gabaldon.

What did the meeting consist of? Harry Dean was not there -- and he got no meeting details from the participants. Harry can only surmise based on the meetings he attended in the headquarters of the San Marino branch of the JBS -- Lee Oswald was being fooled to participate in a JFK plot in Dallas.

What would Oswald's role be? Simply to sit and wait for further instructions. Oswald received a modest amount of cash for this. He would live in Dallas, work near the expected motorcade route, and wait for instructions.

It is interesting that Loran Hall and Larry Howard had a close working relationship with Gerry Patrick Hemming. (Thus we see from his associations that Lee Oswald circulated personally among the extreme right-wing, and only communicated with the extreme left-wing using postal letters.)

I mention this because Gerry Patrick Hemming admitted to Alan Weberman that he personally offered Lee Harvey Oswald double the cash value for his Manlicher-Carcano if Oswald would bring it to work on 22 November 1963, and stash it on the 6th floor for his underground pal to find!

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited March 27, 2014 by Paul Trejo

Paul Trejo · March 20, 2014

So you don't believe Loran Hall when he told Garrison that he had never met Odio?

Well, Paul B., it's a great question. As Larry Hancock once observed, Loran Hall was an unreliable witness - he had become accustomed to wiggling out of everything.

The trouble with Loran Hall's denials that he met SIlvia Odio was that he contradicted his own previous statement. The FBI has Loran Hall on record admitting that he did meet Silvia Odio at her apartment in Dallas, Texas during the final week of September 1963.

In his first statement, Loran Hall admitted that he met with Silvia Odio in Dallas during the final week of September 1963, however, he and Larry Howard weren't with Lee Harvey Oswald that evening (it was about 7pm) as Silvia Odio claimed, but with William Seymour. Therefore, argued, Loran Hall, Silvia Odio could not link Hall and Howard to Lee Harvey Oswald. Silvia could be excused because she was seeing a psychiatrist -- and was therefore "a mental case."

If Loran Hall's first statement had been -- "No, I never met Silvia Odio in Dallas," then I would have believed him with little problem. But since he first admitted seeing Silvia Odio -- and then only denied seeing Silvia Odio in a second report, one week later -- I cannot believe his second report. In his second report, Hall "remembered" that it wasn't Seymour, it was "Wahito" and it wasn't Odio, it was "somebody else."

Hall merely repeated his second report to Jim Garrison four years later.

Also, review Loran Hall's description of the events surrounding his first report. He gave this information to Jim Garrison four years later (in 1968) and it is also printed in the National Enquirer dated 1 September 1968 -- specifically -- Loran Hall said that after speaking with the FBI about Silvia Odio, he escaped two attempts to kill him! One of the attempts was a tampering with his car steering that almost got him killed. The other attempt was somebody trying to run his car off a California cliff; and he barely escaped.

Loran Hall did not tell the National Enquirer who tried to kill him, but he quickly changed his story to the FBI. No -- no -- it's not that Silvia Odio mistook William Seymour for Lee Harvey Oswald -- because actually it wasn't Seymour, it was "Wahito," who accompanied Howard and Hall -- and the Cuban lady they visited was somebody else -- but he couldn't remember who she was!

So -- based on this 180 degree change in direction, I say that Loran Hall was terrified of telling the truth about Silvia Odio -- because he realized too late that he could not wiggle out of further questions that could incriminate his mercenary associates -- and they would probably kill him.

One only has to look at Loran Hall's latest interview when he was asked about Gerry Patrick Hemming -- and he practically became violent on the spot. He was terrified, I believe, of meeting the same fate as Johnny Roselli, Sam Giancana and so many other dead witnesses regarding 22 November 1963. (Combined with the probabiilty that he was also addicted to amphetimines -- yes, I believe that Loran Hall had become an unreliable witness),

The mystery is not Loran Hall's late denials -- the mystery is twofold: (1) how the FBI quickly picked up Loran Hall based on Silvia Odio's description, when she could not remember his name or identify him from photographs; and (2) why Loran Hall immediately confessed to the FBI that he and Larry Howard were at Silvia Odio's apartment during the final week of September 1963.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited March 20, 2014 by Paul Trejo

Thomas Graves · March 20, 2014

Paul,

You wrote:

"According to Harry Dean - and Silvia Odio - Loran Hall and Larry Howard accompanied Lee Harvey Oswald to Mexico City during the final week of September, 1962." [emphasis added]

I'm fascinated by the possibility that these three traveled together to Mexico City in late September, 1962. Could you please elaborate on this or point me in the direction of an earlier post that covers this interesting allegation?

Did you mean to say 1963? If so, was Odio basing her knowledge (of this 1963 MC trip by the dynamic trio) on what she learned from them during the infamous "Odio Incident"?

(I wonder if either Hall or Howard could speak "terrible, hardly recognizable Russian"...)

Thanks,

--Tommy

Right, Tommy, I meant 1963. Thanks for catching my typo (which I corrected).

To elaborate -- we have FBI documents (on the Mary Ferrell site) that describe multiple trips taken by Loran Hall and Larry Howard from Florida through New Orleans to California and back again -- running weapons and medical supplies (drugs) to support continuing raids against Castro's Cuba.

The FBI also named William Seymour as one of the gun-runners in that crew. The connecting link for all three figures was that they were all members of Interpen, led by Gerry Patrick Hemming. The FBI also names Hemming in connection with Hall, Howard and Seymour.

The FBI also tells about Hemming and Hall pawning some of their possessions in California in late 1963, including Hemming's own rifle -- and Loran Hall later picking up Hemming's rifle from the pawn broker -- without telling Hemming! This made Hemming furious -- and about nine years ago, on this very Forum, Gerry Patrick Hemming retold that story with anger still seething for Loran Hall.

Hemming later became more enraged because this happened shortly before 22 November 1963 (when Hemming was allegedly in Florida), and on 22 November 1963, Hemming panicked because he had information that Loran Hall was in Dallas on 22 November 1963 -- with Hemming's rifle!

As for Silvia Odio -- my understanding is that she never mentions the Mexico City trip. The three travelers tell her that they drove in from New Orleans, and they also tell her that they cannot stay in Dallas -- but they never tell Silvia their destination. So, Silvia never guesses that they are on their way to Mexico City -- she only knows that they will be leaving Dallas soon.

Finally, as for the role of Hall and Howard inside Mexico City, aside from drivers and escorts -- Harry Dean has very few details to share, but only some suggestions from what he was told in Southern California.

For Harry Dean, there is no guarantee that Lee Harvey Oswald was ever at the Cuban and Russian Embassies in Mexico City. He might have been -- that is, Marina Oswald said that Lee took many newspaper clippings to Mexico City to "prove" that he was an officer of the FPCC (because FPCC officers were allowed into Cuba instantly).

However, that might have taken only an hour or so to flop -- because the Cuban Embassy had its own list of FPCC Officers, and since Lee Harvey Oswald was not on the officlal List, the clerks would only laugh in his face. They would instantly know that Oswald was a provacateur.

At this point (or even before this point) actors and impersonators could pretend to be Oswald at the Embassies.for whatever games the CIA wanted to play. (Hall and Howard were not needed at the Embassies -- there were plenty of CIA rogues there that day.)

All that is irrelevant for Harry Dean's account in which the key drama was about a group called DACA (Drive Against Communist Aggression) that was set up in Mexico City by Guy Gabaldon (with funding from the JBS).

The real reason that Hall and Howard drove Lee Oswald to Mexico City during the final week of September, 1963, according to Harry Dean, was to meet with Guy Gabaldon.

What did the meeting consist of? Harry Dean was not there -- and he got no meeting details from the participants. Harry can only surmise based on the meetings he attended in the headquarters of the El Monte branch of the JBS -- Lee Oswald was being fooled to participate in a JFK plot in Dallas.

What would Oswald's role be? Simply to sit and wait for further instructions. Oswald received a modest amount of cash for this. He would live in Dallas, work near the expected motorcade route, and wait for instructions.

It is interesting that Loran Hall and Larry Howard had a close working relationship with Gerry Patrick Hemming. (Thus we see from his associations that Lee Oswald circulated personally among the extreme right-wing, and only communicated with the extreme left-wing using postal letters.)

I mention this because Gerry Patrick Hemming admitted to Alan Weberman that he personally offered Lee Harvey Oswald double the cash value for his Manlicher-Carcano if Oswald would bring it to work on 22 November 1963, and stash it on the 6th floor for his underground pal to find!

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Paul,

Thanks for clearing up the fact that, contrary to what you wrote in post # 942, above, Silvia Odio never did claim that Hall, Howard, and Oswald traveled together to Mexico City in late September, 1963.

I guess that leaves us with Harry Dean's word that they did.

Thanks,

--Tommy :sun

Edited March 20, 2014 by Thomas Graves

Paul Trejo · March 20, 2014

Paul,

Thanks for clearing up the fact that, contrary to what you wrote in post # 942, above, Silvia Odio never did claim that Hall, Howard, and Oswald traveled together to Mexico City in late September, 1963.

I guess that leaves us with Harry Dean's word that they did.

Thanks,

--Tommy

Right, Tommy, my sentence in post #942 was beyond ambiguous, it was sloppy. I had intended to write that Silvia Odio testified under oath to the grouping of Lee Harvey Oswald and two Latinos (whom the FBI later identified as Loran Hall and Larry Howard) on the road together from New Orleans during the last week of September 1963, and that this fact matches Harry Dean's story.

I didn't intend to imply that Sylvia Odio knew their destination -- so I just now changed post #942 to clarify my original intent. Thanks again for the correction.

Silvia Odio confirms half of Harry Dean's claim about that week -- but she has nothing to say about the other half.

Regarding the other half of Harry Dean's claim -- you are again right -- the claim that the three men were going to Mexico City together only comes from Harry Dean, and we have no other sources for that specific claim -- although there are nuances.

As most everybody here knows, the Warren Commission places Lee Harvey Oswald on a bus to Mexico City at this date -- however, the bus records and the people on that bus were all examined -- and they failed to confirm the Warren Commission story. (Gaeton Fonzi writes about this at length.) Still, the Warren Commission stuck to the bus story, and dismissed Silvia Odio's story.

The Warren Commission claims that Lee Harvey Oswald was certainly on the road to Mexico City sometime during the final week of September 1963. The Warren Commission claims that Oswald was certainly in Mexico City sometime during the first week of October 1963.

So, for the Warren Commission to insist that Lee Harvey Oswald had no accomplices, they had to squash Silvia Odio's story. The Warren Commission used an impeached affidavit from Loran Hall to argue that. This is why Gaeton Fonzi attempted to revive this argument in 1978 -- but he was too late; the leads were no longer warm.

My point is that the memoirs of Harry Dean successfully revive the testimony of Silvia Odio. Harry confirms her testimony without even trying. And furthermore, Silvia Odio confirms half of Harry Dean's story without even trying.

Finally - a judicious combination of the stories by Silvia Odio with FBI interviews can be interpreted to argue that Loran Hall, Larry Howard and Lee Harvey Oswald rode in a car together during the final week of September 1963, stopped at Silvia Odio's house seeking funds and support, then traveled to Mexico City where Oswald's name (but not his photo) shows up at the Cuban and Russian Embassies before Oswald returns to the USA and Dallas, Texas.

It is this combination that arguably confirms Harry's fuller account of the final week of September 1963.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited March 21, 2014 by Paul Trejo

Paul Trejo · March 21, 2014

That's an interesting thought Paul, but unless or until someone conclusively "solves" the murder I'm not sure anyone will give up their favorite suspect -- I see the same suspects discussed now that were on the very early lists but what I haven't seen is anyone giving up their favorites. We see that every time a poll is done...

Well, Larry, I agree with viewpoint this entirely.

Of course, if somebody conclusively "solves" the JFK murder, and if that clear solution excludes Ex-General Edwin Walker as a key conspirator, then I would publicly renounce my theory.

I would still claim that Harry Dean saw what he saw -- but I would change my mind about how much weight to give Harry's memoirs. That is, we know that there were many, many plots to murder JFK -- and that only one plot among them was successful. So, if it turns out that some other plot was successful, then Harry Dean only saw one of the many plots develop, which like most other plots just fizzled away.

Former FBI Agent Wesley Swearingen says that Harry Dean and Don Adams heard somebody talk about killing JFK, but those plots just fizzled away, while the CIA-Mafia plot was the only plot that was successful. I replied to Swearingen that he fails to account sufficiently for Lee Harvey Oswald. Also, the ground-crew barely interests Swearingen; he's satisfied to identify the major planners and financiers.

The vitality of Harry Dean's account is that it accounts for Lee Harvey Oswald -- and only a plot that accounts for Lee Harvey Oswald can claim to be the "winner" in the contest of plots. It may be that Harry Dean's version of the JFK plot accounts for more data than Swearingen's. Also, Harry's account is more flexible -- with a wider reach than first anticipated -- even by Harry himself.

For example, in the early decades after the JFK murder, Harry Dean believed that the conspiracy he witnessed was the whole show -- so Harry Dean just announced that the Mormon Church was in control of the John Birch Society which controlled General Walker and Guy Gabaldon who controlled Loran Hall and Larry Howard. This was how it appeared to Harry Dean based on the specific events he personally witnessed in Southern California.

Today Harry Dean recognizes that the Mormon Church never was in control of the John Birch Society -- even though in 1963 Ezra Taft Benson, president of the LDS, had a close political relationship with Robert Welch, founder of the JBS. Subsequent presidents of the LDS distanced themselves from the JBS as far as possible. So, Harry eventually changed his interpretation of the facts he saw.

For another example, in those early decades Harry Dean strongly suspected that Loran Hall and Larry Howard were the shooters themselves. Today it is clear that identifying the shooters amongst the many claimants, including Roscoe White, Eladio Del Valle, JD Tippit, Johnny Roselli, James Files and many more, will not be so easy.

For another example, in those early decades Harry Dean had no idea that Ex-General Walker and Congressman John Rousselot were politically connected to White racists in the US South. Harry Dean never saw a racist connection among the Southern California JBS or inside the Minutemen under Troy Houghton.

Today, however, we see photos showing Rousselot posing under JBS billboards announcing, "Impeach Earl Warren," a famous rallying cry for school segregationists. Also, the fact that Edwin Walker led the race riots at Ole Miss in 1962 is clear evidence.

The reason Harry Dean failed to see that connection in 1963 was because the JBS directly spun the Ole Miss riots to make it appear that JFK was the bad guy and Edwin Walker was the good guy in those riots -- Edwin Walker was merely fighting "Communism" (as the racist right wing liked to call Civil Rights), said the JBS. Harry Dean believed the JBS propaganda at the time.

Today Harry Dean can see those historical nuances. So, even Harry Dean himself has changed his assessment of the JFK murder plot that he actually witnessed in September 1963 in the headquarters of the San Marino chapter of the JBS.

The events that Harry Dean personally witnessed form a part of the whole puzzle -- they don't form the entire puzzle. Yet a part that is truly a part can be used -- scientifically -- to reconstruct the entire puzzle; for example, when a paleontologist reconstructs an entire dinosaur from a few bones. That is how I regard the memoirs of Harry Dean.

Harry has a major piece of the puzzle to offer JFK researchers, and it has been undervalued for decades, in my opinion. That's why I followed the posts of John Dolva, who spent a lot of time on the JFK Forum researching the role of the radical right-wing in the murder of JFK. That's why I also follow your writings, Larry, when you piece together evidence about Walker in Miami, for example, or Walker dealing with the extreme right wing.

In my theory, Ex-General Edwin Walker fits inside a larger scenario that involves the poliitcs of the South, where the JBS was a major force in 1962-1963. The clash of the JBS with the Civil Rights movement in the early 1960's is best shown, I believe, in the Ole Miss race riots of 1962 and the JBS defense of Edwin Walker in those riots. Those riots display the mood that murdered JFK.

Remember that 1963 was the year in which Alabama Governor George Wallace gave his "Segregation Now, Segregation Forever" speech. The JBS played a major role in connecting the White racist South with the more moderate North by arguing that Civil Rights was Communist. In this way, non-racists like Harry Dean could be exploited for Southern, racist politics.

This was the key -- here is the connection that combines many different JFK theories into a larger theory. The JBS formula, that Civil Rights was Communist, brought together vast multitudes of people from the far right and the center wings in politics, so that a critical mass was formed that was too powerful for JFK to handle. The far right turned to Cuban Exiles and the problem of Cuba. Now Loran Hall and Larry Howard enter the picture.

In my theory, rogue elements from the CIA were involved -- specifically those who had served at the Bay of Pigs, and who could enlist radical Cuban Exiles and Mafia bosses kicked out of Cuba. These CIA-Mafia elements supported paramilitary training camps in Florida and Louisiana -- and in those camps we find Interpen, including Gerry Patrick Hemming, Loran Hall and Larry Howard.

Active JBS members supported these paramilitary training camps -- by sending them guns and medical supplies. Harry Dean and Guy Gabaldon were two of the more active suppliers of these training camps from their base in Southern California. Harry's memoirs don't mention Gerry Patrick Hemming or Interpen -- probably because Loran Hall and Larry Howard never spoke of them, although Hall and Howard were friendly with Harry Dean in Southern California, because Harry Dean was a capable organizer of supplies for these training camps.

Harry Dean collected arms, but also medical supplies (drugs) for the many trips that Loran Hall and Larry Howard made between California and Florida, running guns and drugs to these paramilitary training camps. Harry Dean, however, was only directly informed about paramilitary activities run by Gabaldon (e.g. DACA) by Loran Hall (e.g. CRC), and the Southern California Minutemen.

That is, Harry Dean himself did not see the bigger picture in the early decades -- but in his work with me during the past year, Harry Dean has reorganized his conclusions about what he personally witnessed.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited March 27, 2014 by Paul Trejo

Paul Trejo · March 24, 2014

...I'll probably have to at least follow this thread forward. I can only say, if you do have SWHT/2010 and do reread my appendix on Odio Revisited, you will find my assessment going in a far different direction than I anticipate Paul is going to go... If you have the book, you can make your own comparisons and decisions. Otherwise this is merely a disclaimer for anyone who does not have the book...

-- Larry

Larry, I'm finally ready to discuss your 2010 edition of Someone Would Have Talked (SWHT), from "Appendix H: Odio Revisited."

You're correct that the direction of your assessment is significantly different than the direction that I'll take the same information in light of Harry Dean's memoirs -- and yet there are intereting similarities as well.

I'll deal with one small part at a time. Today I'd like to start on the common issue of Loran Hall.

I've often asked how the FBI could so quickly pick up Loran Hall for questioning after Silvia Odio sketchily described the two Latinos at her door with Lee Harvey Oswald during the final week of September 1963. Larry Hancock's excellent book, SWHT (2010), offers important clues in this regard.

(First, a word about the spelling of Silvia's name in JFK literature. Gaeton Fonzi uses the Spanish spelling, Silvia, while most authors use the English spelling, Sylvia. Following Fonzi, I use the Spanish spelling. Also, the name, Lee Oswald, rendered in Spanish is "Leon Oswald" because in Spanish there is no boy's name of "Lee". A typical Spaniard, hearing the name "Lee," would think of the Chinese surname, "Li." The proper first name, in Spanish, would be "Leon." This is most likely why Lorenzo named Oswald as "Leon" to Silvia.)

Anyway, in SWHT (2010) you note that Loran Hall was well-known to the FBI long before they picked him up regarding the Odio Incident. Hall is mentioned in several FBI reports going back to 1959, and was actually a subject of a separate JFK murder investigation.

As you noted, this FBI investigation began on 23 November 1963 when pawn-broker Richard Hathcock told the FBI that Loran Hall and Gerry Patrick Hamming pawned Hemming's 30-06 rifle together. Two weeks before the JFK murder, Loran Hall and "a fat Mexican fellow" (probably Larry Howard) brought Hathcock enough money to reclaim the rifle.

(Many here may recall the story told on this Forum in 2007 by Gerry Patrick Hemming, namely, that Loran Hall redeemed Hemming's rifle from a pawn shop in California and took it to Dallas, thus infuriating Hemming.)

Richard Hathcock didn't go to the FBI -- the FBI came to Hathcock promptly after the JFK murder to ask Hathcock about his employee, Roy Payne, in connection with that 30-06 rifle. Here is what Hathcock told the HSCA in 1978: "It's my opinion that the reason the FBI agent wanted to see Mr. Payne was because Payne's fingerprints undoubtedly were all over that rifle from his having handled it many times. It's also my opinion that unless that particular rifle had been...in some way involved in the assassination, that the FBI would have no interest in it."

The FBI also questioned Roy Payne on 23 November 1963, who told them that he'd seen Loran Hall five days before the JFK murder, and asked about his raids on Cuba. Hall told Payne that the CIA stopped his Miami operations. In 1978 Payne told the HSCA that the FBI had secretly searched Hathcock's offices and truck and spied on them for a long time.

Roy Payne also told the FBI that he saw Loran Hall two weeks after the JFK murder, and that Hall admitted he was in Dallas on that day -- "right in the middle of the lobby of the Hilton Hotel." (Gerry Patrick Hemming -- again on this Forum in 2007 -- stated that he had information that Loran Hall was in Dallas 22 November 1963.) Loran Hall repeatedly denied to the FBI that he was in Dallas on that date, yet the HSCA made Hall admit that on that date he phoned a relative to establish an alibi!

Also as you reported, Larry, the word of Loran Hall was "considered questionable" by the FBI as early as 1959. Both the CIA and the FBI have statements from Loran Hall during September 1963 about his speeches in California to raise funds for raids on Cuba. Oddly, the John Birch Society paid for a private lie detector test for Loran Hall, to verify some of these statements to the FBI and CIA.

There are further FBI and CIA files on Loran Hall regarding the arrest of Loran Hall and William Seymour in Dallas in October 1963 (when Edwin Walker's attorney, Robert Morris, found bail for them). Significantly, as you note, Larry, none of this background on Loran Hall shows up in the FBI's report to the Warren Commission about the Silvia Odio incident. The FBI simply withheld this information from the President's Commission.

So, Larry, I think your exposition goes a long way toward explaining why the FBI picked up Loran Hall after the sketchy description that Silvia Odio gave the FBI regarding the two Latinos with Oswald at her door in September 1963. Also as you noted, it still leaves open the question about why the FBI picked up Roy Payne about Gerry Patrick Hemming's rifle on 23 November 1963.

Harry Dean's memoirs confirm several aspects of your account. Loran Hall was a regular speaker at the John Birch Society in Southern California, raising funds (and supplies) for raids on Cuba. Larry Howard was his frequent companion. Hall and Howard often traveled between Miami and Los Angeles together, running guns and drugs.

Loran Hall was also an aggressive, shady character who could rarely be trusted. Harry Dean told me that Larry Howard once confessed to Harry that he felt like killing Loran Hall. Hall comes to life on YouTube today, in a recording of his standard speech, "Cuba Betrayed," which Harry Dean has preserved for history:

LORAN HALL, Part One: www.youtube.com/watch?v=6daWtQYlydQ

LORAN HALL, Part Two: www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kLVVHQ_Myg

Loran Hall was more closely connected to Interpen and Gerry Patrick Hemming than Harry Dean knew, but Harry Dean did know that Loran Hall and Larry Howard were deeply connected to many anti-Castro groups from Florida to California.

It seems to me that Loran Hall plays a bigger role in the JFK assassination than has been attributed to him by most JFK research literature. Hall's role includes General Walker, who also played a leading role in the humiliation of Adlai Stevenson in Dallas one month before the murder of JFK.

Hall's role also includes Gerry Patrick Hemming -- a player in your scenario, Larry, who is missing in Harry Dean's scenario. Yet your citation of Hemming's connection to Hall using FBI records turns out to be an important confirmation of Harry Dean's story, because it more firmly establishes Loran Hall as a key suspect in the murder of JFK.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited March 27, 2014 by Paul Trejo

Paul Trejo · March 25, 2014

...I can only say, if you do have SWHT/2010 and do reread my appendix on Odio Revisited, you will find my assessment going in a far different direction than I anticipate Paul is going to go...

-- Larry

Larry, I wonder if our assessment of the material will be so different. Your SWHT/2010 suggests that the testimony of Silvia Odio shows that Lee Oswald was not a lone nut, but clearly involved with others in secret activities in the Fall of 1963.

You suggest that the Odio incident illustrates some of the methods the FBI used to forge an image of Oswald as an “loose cannon”. You also associate Oswald with individuals from Cuba – either pro-Castro or anti-Castro, or (like Harry Dean) first pro-Castro and later anti-Castro.

Gaeton Fonzi presented a similar portrait (The Last Investigation, 1993) when he delved into the Cuban connection with regard to Lee Harvey Oswald. You both see in Odio's case the lengths to which the FBI was willing to go to avoid any evidence that Oswald had accomplices, and to protect their sources and their own activities.

Your book, Larry, portrays the FBI report to the Warren Commission as a deliberate deception. The FBI reported that Silvia Odio had simply mistaken William Seymour for Lee Harvey Oswald on her doorstep during the final week of September, 1963. Actually, the FBI knew that Seymour, Howard and later Loran Hall had all denied the claim, and the alibis of Seymour and Howard were verified.

Further, FBI files reported that both Silvia and Annie Odio failed to identify Hall, Howard or Seymour as their visitors. Other FBI records showed that Hall and Howard arrived in Dallas around October 3, staying a few days; and that Hall and Seymour arrived in Dallas on October 17 and were arrested on drugs charges. The FBI withheld all this from the Warren Commission.

Finally, as we saw yesterday, Loran Hall had also been retained for questioning regarding the JFK assassination in late November 1963, about redeeming the rifle of Gerry Patrick Hemming pawned to Richard Hathcock and Roy Payne during September 1963. This was also withheld from the Warren Commission.

Then, Larry, you introduce another figure, Carlos Quiroga from New Orleans. An associate of Carlos Bringuier and the DRE, this Quiroga was known for his claims that Lee (Leon) Oswald was a US-hating Communist, and that Quiroga tried to infiltrate Oswald's FPCC chapter in New Orleans, posing as a Castro supporter. Still, the FBI omits any record of interviews with Quiroga after the JFK murder, even though he might have supported the FBI case that Oswald was a Communist lunatic.

Jim Garrison in 1967 did interview Quiroga at length, and linked Lee Oswald with Guy Banister through Quiroga, the DRE and Carlos Bringuier. For this exploration, Jim Garrison was energetically opposed by both the FBI and the CIA. In its own files on Guy Bannister, the CIA linked him with a project code-named QK/ENCHANT from 1960, which involved both Clay Shaw and E. Howard Hunt.

It is well known that Oswald wrote a letter to the FPCC on August 4, 1963, telling them about his street brawl with Cuban Exiles over the status of Castro’s Cuba, and that the police became involved. It is also well-known that this letter was mailed 12 full days before this event actually took place near Canal Street and was reported by New Orleans police.

Then, Larry, you add a new wrinkle; actually Carlos Quiroga delivered these FPCC leaflets to Oswald before the street brawl. This batch of the FPCC leaflets was stamped with the 544 Camp Street address, and was paid for in receipts traceable to the CIA.

Quiroga and Bringuier both lied to investigators; actually Quiroga visited Oswald before the street brawl, and not afterwards. Also, Oswald's landlady saw Quiroga arrive with a stack of FPCC leaflets, 5 or 6 inches thick; not “one or two leaflets” as Quiroga claimed.

Like David Ferrie, Quiroga was a friend of Sergio Arcacha-Smith and his CRC during the period when many Cubans (and Americans like Harry Dean) supported Fidel Castro before turning against him. The CIA, reports Larry Hancock, evaluated Quiroga as a possible CIA asset. Quiroga was passed over, however, because he was gay (and considered more prone to blackmail in those days) and he made too many anti-USA statements.

You suggest, Larry, that Quiroga gave the CIA much inside information about the Garrison case while he was a witness for Garrison. Quiroga also led Garrison astray, so Garrison forced Quiroga to take a lie-detector test. That test showed that Quiroga often lied about Oswald, Oswald's accomplices and some sort of a conspiracy.

The lie-detector test also demonstrated that Carlos Quiroga knew Lee Harvey Oswald quite well, and that Oswald was involved somehow in some sort of an anti-Castro operation. Quiroga also knew about the ‘heavy-set Mexican’ often seen with Oswald.

You also suggest, Larry, that “a considerable number” of reports about the DRE during the summer and autumn of 1963 that mention Oswald in New Orleans “are either missing or unreleased.”

I myself see connections of this material with the memoirs of Harry Dean. Firstly, that ‘heavy set Mexican’ is most likely Larry Howard, the frequent companion of Loran Hall. Secondly, Loran Hall is a significant player in New Orleans training camps for Cuban raids, such as the one in Lake Pontchartrain which was organized by Guy Bannister and David Ferrie.

Thirdly, Gerry Patrick Hemming and his Interpen mercenaries were occasionally seen at Lake Pontchartrain, Louisiana, just as they were occasionally seen at Ex-General Walker’s home in Dallas, Texas. Fourth, Carlos Bringuier was known to make political speeches for the DRE at events that included Ex-General Walker and segregationist Reverend Billy James Hargis. (Walker admitted to the Warren Commission that he made a cash donation to the DRE).

Harry Dean has been saying since 1965 that Lee Harvey Oswald had accomplices, and he has provided the names of those accomplices he knew about. By connecting Lee Harvey Oswald to the DRE in this way, you are, Larry, without even trying, linking Lee Harvey Oswald to the same personnel cited in Harry Dean’s memoirs, and thus your findings and the memoirs of Harry Dean agree once again.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited March 26, 2014 by Paul Trejo

Larry Hancock · March 25, 2014

Paul, I will provide responses below but lets start in a bit of a reverse order, my comments will be in caps.

Harry Dean has been saying since 1965 that Lee Harvey Oswald had accomplices, and he has provided the names of those accomplices he knew about. By connecting Lee Harvey Oswald to the DRE in this way, you are, Larry, without even trying, linking Lee Harvey Oswald to the same personnel cited in Harry Dean’s memoirs, and thus your findings and the memoirs of Harry Dean agree once again.

GIVEN THAT I DON'T SEE LEE OSWALD AS KNOWINGLY INVOLVED IN THE SHOOTING OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY, I WOULD REJECT THE USE OF "ACCOMPLICES" EVEN IF YOU PROVIDED SOLID PROOF THAT OSWALD WAS IN THE COMPANY OF INDIVIDUALS NAMED BY HARRY. STATING THAT DRE MEMBERS WERE AWARE OF LEE OSWALD AND HIS APPARENT PRO-CASTRO ACTIVITIES IN NO IN NO WAY ASSOCIATES OSWALD DIRECTLY IN ANY CONSPIRACY, OTHER THAN THE POSSIBILITY THAT HE WAS SET UP AS A PATSY. OF COURSE THERE IS EVERY REASON TO PRESUME THAT RIGHT WING, ANTI-CASTRO INDIVIDUALS IN NEW ORLEANS AND MIAMI - GIVEN THE KNOWN GOSSIP FACTOR OF THE ANTI-CASTRO "COMMUNITY", NO SURPRISE. AS I DEMONSTRATE IN THE BOOK, A BROAD SOCIAL NETWORK OF PEOPLE WERE WERE AWARE OF OSWALD GIVEN HIS MEDIA VISIBILITY THAT SUMMER. KNOWING HIS NAME AND HAVING HIM AS AN ACCOMPLICE IN A PLOT IS A TOTALLY DIFFERENT THING.

You suggest that the Odio incident illustrates some of the methods the FBI used to forge an image of Oswald as an “loose cannon”. You also associate Oswald with individuals from Cuba – either pro-Castro or anti-Castro, or (like Harry Dean) first pro-Castro and later anti-Castro.

ACTUALLY MY REFERENCE TO POSITIONING OSWALD AS A LOOSE CANNON HAS NO RELATIONSHIP AT ALL TO ANY FBI ACTIVITIES. IF ANYTHING THE FBI TREATED OSWALD AS A POTENTIAL INFORMANT, FROM THE FIRST INTERVIEW IN TEXAS AFTER HIS RETURN FROM RUSSIA WHEN HE VOLUNTEERED TO ADVISE THEM IF HE WAS CONTACTED BY ANYONE WHO MIGHT BE A SOVIET AGENT. THE BUREAU'S INTERNAL DOCUMENTS ON OSWALD PRIOR TO THE ASSASSINATION ARE ALL VERY FOCUSED AND HAVE VIRTUALLY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE FBI REPORT PREPARED AFTER THE ASSASSINATION WHICH WAS PREPARED VERY SPECIFICALLY TO DOCUMENT HIM AS THE SOLE ASSASSIN. AS TO THE CUBANS WHO FIRST CONTACTED OSWALD IN NO, THEY WERE ANTI-CASTRO CUBANS PRESENTING THEMSELVES AS CASTRO AGENTS...THAT SIMPLE

Gaeton Fonzi presented a similar portrait (The Last Investigation, 1993) when he delved into the Cuban connection with regard to Lee Harvey Oswald. You both see in Odio's case the lengths to which the FBI was willing to go to avoid any evidence that Oswald had accomplices, and to protect their sources and their own activities.

I WOULD AGREE ON THAT, AFTER THE FBI HAD BEEN DIRECTED TO CREATE A REPORT ON OSWALD AS THE SOLE ASSASSIN, THERE WAS LITTLE INTEREST AND SOME CAREER RISK IN GOING OFF ON ANY TANGENTS. VARIOUS FBI AGENTS HAVE EXPRESSED THE FACT THAT WAS PRETTY CLEARLY UNDERSTOOD AND THAT'S NOT JUST A MATTER OF THIS CASE. FBI AGENTS AND IN PARTICULAR SAIC'S WERE QUITE SENSITIVE TO OVERALL GUIDANCE FROM THE DIRECTOR.

Your book, Larry, portrays the FBI report to the Warren Commission as a deliberate deception. The FBI reported that Silvia Odio had simply mistaken William Seymour for Lee Harvey Oswald on her doorstep during the final week of September, 1963. Actually, the FBI knew that Seymour, Howard and later Loran Hall had all denied the claim, and the alibis of Seymour and Howard were verified.

CERTAINLY INTERNAL FBI REPORTS DID CONFLICT WITH HOOVER'S RESPONSE TO THE WC ON THE ODIO ISSUE. I'M NOT I RECALL THE EXACT TIME LINES AND WHETHER ALL THE INTERNAL INQUIRY WAS DONE BEFORE HE GAVE HIS ANSWER; I THOUGHT NOT. IN ANY EVENT HE DIDN'T GO BACK AND CHANGE IT SO PRAGMATICALLY I WOULD AGREE. IT WOULD NOT BE THE ONLY INSTANCE IN WHICH INTERNALLY HELD FBI TESTS OR INQUIRIES WERE IN CONFLICT WITH THEIR OWN REPORT OR WITH THE WCR. OF COURSE THE SAME THING CAN BE SAID ABOUT WC STAFF THEMSELVES; ARLAN S. KNEW THE BALLISTICS PANEL REPORT ON CE399 WOULD BE IN CONFLICT WITH THE WCR SHOOTING SCENARIO - HE DOESN'T SEEM TO HAVE RAISED THAT AS AN OBJECTION EITHER. THERE WAS A LOT OF THAT GOING ON.

Further, FBI files reported that both Silvia and Annie Odio failed to identify Hall, Howard or Seymour as their visitors. Other FBI records showed that Hall and Howard arrived in Dallas around October 3, staying a few days; and that Hall and Seymour arrived in Dallas on October 17 and were arrested on drugs charges. The FBI withheld all this from the Warren Commission.

YEP

Finally, as we saw yesterday, Loran Hall had also been retained for questioning regarding the JFK assassination in late November 1963, about redeeming the rifle of Gerry Patrick Hemming pawned to Richard Hathcock and Roy Payne during September 1963. This was also withheld from the Warren Commission.

YEP, AS YOU MENTIONED ABOVE, NOBODY WAS TAKING ANY PAINS TO OPEN DOORS AT THAT POINT IN TIME....

Then, Larry, you introduce another figure, Carlos Quiroga from New Orleans. An associate of Carlos Bringuier and the DRE, this Quiroga was known for his claims that Lee (Leon) Oswald was a US-hating Communist, and that Quiroga tried to infiltrate Oswald's FPCC chapter in New Orleans, posing as a Castro supporter. Still, the FBI omits any record of interviews with Quiroga after the JFK murder, even though he might have supported the FBI case that Oswald was a Communist lunatic.

AGREED AND VERY CONSISTENT, THE BUREAU HAD BEEN ASSIGNED TO WRITE A REPORT ABOUT LEE OSWALD ALONE AND THAT IS WHAT THEY DID. THEY PROVIDED THEIR REPORT TO THE WC AND THEY ALSO PROVIDED TESTIMONY ON VARIOUS ITEMS OF EVIDENCE AND RESPONDED TO WC INQUIRIES IF AND ONLY IF REQUESTED. THEIR CONCLUSIONS WERE REACHED AND DOCUMENTED AND SIGNED BY THE DIRECTOR WITHIN A MONTH, BEFORE THE WC REALLY EVEN GOT UNDERWAY.

Jim Garrison in 1967 did interview Quiroga at length, and linked Lee Oswald with Guy Banister through Quiroga, the DRE and Carlos Bringuier. For this exploration, Jim Garrison was energetically opposed by both the FBI and the CIA. In its own files on Guy Bannister, the CIA linked him with a project code-named QK/ENCHANT from 1960, which involved both Clay Shaw and E. Howard Hunt.

GARRISON'S INVESTIGATION WAS OPPOSED FOR A GREAT NUMBER OF REASONS, DIFFERENT REASONS TO EVEN THE FBI AND CIA. THOSE REASONS HAD TO DO WITH CIA DOMESTIC OPERATIONS, FBI SUBVERSIVE OPERATIONS AND KNOWLEDGE OF LEE OSWALD TO BOTH AGENCIES.

It is well known that Oswald wrote a letter to the FPCC on August 4, 1963, telling them about his street brawl with Cuban Exiles over the status of Castro’s Cuba, and that the police became involved. It is also well-known that this letter was mailed five full days before this event actually took place near Canal Street and was reported by New Orleans police.

ALL OF WHICH HAS TO DO WITH OSWALD'S INITIAL ROLE IN DOMESTIC SUBVERSIVE INVESTIGATIONS AND EVOLVING ROLE IN COUNTER FPCC PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES...NOT SURE WHERE YOU ARE GOING WITH THAT.

Then, Larry, you add a new wrinkle; actually Carlos Quiroga delivered these FPCC leaflets to Oswald before the street brawl. This batch of the FPCC leaflets was stamped with the 544 Camp Street address, and was paid for in receipts traceable to the CIA.

DITTO

Quiroga and Bringuier both lied to investigators; actually Quiroga visited Oswald before the street brawl, and not afterwards. Also, Oswald's landlady saw Quiroga arrive with a stack of FPCC leaflets, 5 or 6 inches thick; not “one or two leaflets” as Quiroga claimed.

DITTO

Like David Ferrie, Quiroga was a friend of Sergio Arcacha-Smith and his CRC during the period when many Cubans (and Americans like Harry Dean) supported Fidel Castro before turning against him. The CIA, reports Larry Hancock, evaluated Quiroga as a possible CIA asset. Quiroga was passed over, however, because he was gay (and considered more prone to blackmail in those days) and he made too many anti-USA statements.

DITTO

You suggest, Larry, that Quiroga gave the CIA much inside information about the Garrison case while he was a witness for Garrison. Quiroga also led Garrison astray, so Garrison forced Quiroga to take a lie-detector test. That test showed that Quiroga often lied about Oswald, Oswald's accomplices and some sort of a conspiracy.

I SUSPECT QUIROGA KNEW QUITE WELL THAT OSWALD WAS IN CONTACT WITH INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE NOT CASTRO AGENTS AND MUS-REPRESENTING THEMSELVES AS SUCH

The lie-detector test also demonstrated that Carlos Quiroga knew Lee Harvey Oswald quite well, and that Oswald was involved somehow in some sort of an anti-Castro operation. Quiroga also knew about the ‘heavy-set Mexican’ often seen with Oswald.

DITTO

You also suggest, Larry, that “a considerable number” of reports about the DRE during the summer and autumn of 1963 that mention Oswald in New Orleans “are either missing or unreleased.”

YEP, BECAUSE I SUSPECT OSWALD WAS MORE WIDELY DISCUSSED THAN ANYONE WANTED TO MENTION AFTER THE ASSASSINATION. ON A RELATED POINT, ITS ALSO RELEVANT THAT A GOOD DEAL OF WHAT WAS GOING ON WOULD PROBABLY HAVE BEEN VIEWED A VIOLATION OF THE CIA'S DOMESTIC LIMITATIONS AND WOULD HAVE LED TO QUESTIONS ABOUT A LOT OF OTHER OPERATIONS THAT IT WOULD NOT HAVE ENJOYED HAVING EXPOSED.

I myself see connections of this material with the memoirs of Harry Dean. Firstly, that ‘heavy set Mexican’ is most likely Larry Howard, the frequent companion of Loran Hall. Secondly, Loran Hall is a significant player in New Orleans training camps for Cuban raids, such as the one in Lake Pontchartrain which was organized by Guy Bannister and David Ferrie.

I THINK YOU NEED TO TAKE A CLOSER LOOK AT THE TIMELINE AND NATURE OF THOSE VARIOUS "CAMPS" ...WHICH VARIES GREATLY FROM LATE 1960-63. A LOT IS SAID ABOUT THE VARIOUS CAMPS AND I FOUND MUCH OF IT WRONG OR VERY SUPERFICIAL.

Thirdly, Gerry Patrick Hemming and his Interpen mercenaries were occasionally seen at Lake Pontchartrain, Louisiana, just as they were occasionally seen at Ex-General Walker’s home in Dallas, Texas. Fourth, Carlos Bringuier was known to make political speeches for the DRE at events that included Ex-General Walker and segregationist Reverend Billy James Hargis. (Walker admitted to the Warren Commission that he made a cash donation to the DRE).

THERE IS LITTLE DOUBT THAT HEMMING AND HOWARD IN PARTICULAR TRAVELED THE FUND RAISING CIRCUIT FROM MIAMI TO DALLAS TO LA. HALL IS A DIFFERENT STORY, NOT TRUSTED BY MANY AND IF I RECALL EVEN FORCED TO TAKE A POLYGRAPH BEFORE BEING ALLOWED TO SPEAK TO CERTAIN RIGHT WING GROUPS IN CALIFORNIA. ONE OF THE POINTS I BRING UP IN ODIO REVISITED IS THAT IT SEEMS POSSIBLE TO ME THAT HEMMING ET AL MAY HAVE TAKEN THE OPPORTUNITY TO GET HALL OFF THEIR BACKS AND OUT OF COMPETING FOR FUNDS (HEMMING CLEARLY WANTED HALL TO QUIT ASKING "HIS PEOPLE" FOR MONEY) BY SETTING HIM UP AS A SUSPECT IN THE ASSASSINATION.

MY POINT REMAINS THAT I WOULD NOT BE SURPRISED IF INDIVIDUALS ON THAT RIGHT WINK, ANTI-CASTRO CIRCUIT HAD HEARD OF OSWALD BASED ON HIS PROMINENCE IN NEW ORLEANS. MAKING THAT PART OF THE ACTUAL ATTACK IN DALLAS IS ANOTHER STORY ENTIRELY. HAVING SAID THAT, I WOULD BE REMISS NOT TO SAY THAT I DO DISCUSS THE POSSIBILITY THAT CERTAIN OF HEMMING'S EARLIER ASSOCIATES SUCH AS ROY HARGRAVES WERE INDEED INVOLVED IN DALLAS. HAVING READ SWHT YOU ARE AWARE OF HOW I CONNECT THE DOTS TO MAKE THAT CASE.

Paul Trejo · March 26, 2014

Paul, I will provide responses below but lets start in a bit of a reverse order, my comments will be in caps...

<snip>

Larry, thanks for your detailed reply. Here's my feedback:

(1) When I say Oswald had “accomplices” I mean it ironically. Oswald knew the people who were making him into a patsy, but obviously he didn’t know he was being made into a patsy. Still, Oswald knew them.

Oswald failed to see the vast extent of the conspiracy – and how many of his associates in New Orleans were involved. Harry Dean names three central figures: Ex-General Edwin Walker (whom Oswald perhaps never met but tried to kill), Loran Hall and Larry Howard (who arguably drove Oswald to Silvia Odio's door). Others include David Ferrie, Clay Shaw, Guy Bannister, Carlos Bringuier, Carlos Quiroga, Ed Butler, Gerry Patrick Hemming, Jack Ruby and perhaps some trusted members of DRE and Interpen. (Most of these people had been gun runners and suppliers for Cuba’s revolution and counter-revolution. Harry Dean falls into this same category, which fact supports his account.)

(2) Oswald was unknowingly involved in the JFK shooting. He realized far too late that he had been made their patsy. He might have survived his fate if only he had blurted out their names to the News Media when he had the chance – yet even then he behaved as though he still had a chance of obtaining “legal assistance.”

(3) Yes, the FBI treated Oswald as a potential informant after he returned from the USSR. He was perhaps an “informal” source of information who received small sums from the local FBI (as described by Wes Swearingen). Everything changed when FBI Agents had to conform to Hoover’s dictum that Oswald must be the "Lone Assassin."

(4) It seems to me, however, that Oswald was openly Anti-Castro to those who knew him well -- i.e. the conspirators. These right-wing insiders knew this by Oswald's visible relationship to Shaw, Ferrie and Banister, who were fairly well-known. Ed Butler and Carlos Bringuier played along with Bannister's fake FPCC scenario and organized a media campaign around it in August 1963.

Anti-Castro types made a deal with Oswald through Shaw and Bannister in which Oswald would present himself as Pro-Castro. This is when confusion arose within the Cuban Exile community; Oswald got a street reputation of being a double-agent or a secret Communist (as Silvia Odio’s relatives had warned her about Oswald). Thus pro-Castro posers and perhaps some pro-Castro types would later be fooled by Oswald's charade.

(5) It seems to me (based partly on Harry Dean's memoirs) that Bannister's “sheep-dipping” program was ordered and directed by Ex-General Edwin Walker. I say Walker sought revenge for Oswald's shooting at him back in April 1963. Walker and Bannister were Minutemen pals – so this was the most secret pact of all. Even the DRE and Interpen might have been ignorant of this pact.

(6) We seem to agree that the Odio Incident clashed head-on with J. Edgar Hoover’s demand that Lee Oswald must be the “Lone Assassin.” Arlen Specter would do anything to force all evidence into the “Lone Assassin” theory, even hiding or destroying evidence if necessary. I suspect, however, that Specter’s motivation was purely sycophantic and ambitious.

(7) Not only did Hoover document his conclusions by December, but even as early as 29 November 1963, Hoover’s phone call to LBJ already set out the main details of the “Lone Assassin” theory – which remained intact for the remainder of the Warren Commission Hearings.

(8) I agree with you, Larry, that FBI reports about the DRE are missing because Oswald was probably a major topic of discussion among the DRE, and Hoover could never afford to make that public.

(9) Regarding Hall, Howard and Bannister – and also Hemming – if I can place them together at any point in 1963, I feel justified in naming them all as core conspirators. Hemming told Weberman that he himself offered Oswald double the market price for his rifle if Oswald would bring it to the TSBD on 22 November 1963 – thus Hemming confessed to being a conspirator.

(10) My theory affirms your suspicion that the mainstream right-wing found Oswald on their radar specifically because of the “sheep dipping” farce accomplished by the individuals I named above in New Orleans during the summer of 1963.

Harry Dean’s memoirs suggest exactly the same scenario. It was the media events in New Orleans featuring Lee Harvey Oswald as an outspoken and courageous officer of the FPCC that caught the attention of the John Birch Society in San Marino, California.

Yet even Harry Dean did not realize at that time that Ex-General Edwin Walker had previously planned with Guy Bannister to “sheep-dip” Oswald as early as Easter Sunday, 1963 – the very date that Walker learned from some government official that Lee Harvey Oswald was a suspect in his April shooting (according to Walker's personal papers). Days later, David Ferrie would invite Oswald to New Orleans for a "special task," IMHO. That's when Oswald moved to NOLA in 1963.

(11) To link the New Orleans “sheep dip” to the JFK murder in Dallas, I would name five suspects: (i) Ex-General Edwin Walker; (ii) mercenary Gerry Patrick Hemming; (iii) mercenary Larry Howard; (iv) mercenary Loran Hall; and (v) DRE leader Carlos Bringuier. All five moved freely between New Orleans and Dallas.

I see how you connect the dots, Larry. I think that these extra connections that Harry Dean and I offer will harmonize fairly well with your own connections. Please tell me if you think I’ve missed something major.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited March 26, 2014 by Paul Trejo

Larry Hancock · March 26, 2014

MORE COMMENTS BELOW PAUL, IN CAPS TO STAND OUT - FIRST OFF THOUGH, LET ME STRESS THE POINT AGAIN THAT SIMPLY BECAUSE SOMEONE HEARD THE GOSSIP ABOUT OSWALD AND/OR A PLOT AGAINST KENNEDY DOESN'T PUT THEM IN THE OPERATIONAL LOOP FOR DALLAS. LOTS OF OTHER CONSIDERATIONS THERE. THERE REMARKS MAY PROVIDE CLUES BUT ONLY TO THE DEPTH OF THE DETAIL THEY THEMSELVES PROVIDE - THAT IS WHY THE REMARKS FROM THE PARROT JUNGLE ARE SO HELPFUL AS THEY NOT ONLY SHOW A GREAT DEAL OF KNOWLEDGE OF OSWALD BUT ACTUALLY ABOUT HIS MOVEMENTS ONLY WEEKS BEFORE THE SHOOTING....AND THEY ARE ACTUALLY IN AN FBI RECORD AND VERIFIED BY THIRD PARTY CO-WORKERS. NORMALLY THAT'S THE BASIC CUT I USE FOR REALLY BEING INTERESTED IN A LEAD/SOURCE.

Larry, thanks for your detailed reply. Here's my feedback:

(1) When I say Oswald had “accomplices” I mean it ironically Oswald knew the people who were making him into a patsy, but obviously he didn’t know he was being made into a patsy. Still, Oswald knew them.

OK, LETS JUST GO WITH CONTACTS, THAT'S PRETTY DESCRIPTIVE AND IMPLIES NOTHING OPERATIONAL. THE REASON THE NEW ORLEANS CONTACTS NAGELL NOTES ARE PARTICULARLY GOOD IS THAT WE CAN ACTUALLY TIE THEM TO A SEPTEMBER PLOT IN DC BASED ON OSWALD'S OWN LETTERS, THAT'S STRONG STUFF. SO THOSE CONTACTS ARE REAL OPERATIONAL GUYS TRYING TO ASSASSINATE JFK AS EARLY AS LATE AUGUST. THEY COME OUT OF MIAMI TO NEW ORLEANS.

Oswald failed to see the vast extent of the conspiracy – and how many of his associates in New Orleans were involved. Harry Dean names three central figures: Ex-General Edwin Walker (whom Oswald perhaps never met but tried to kill), Loran Hall and Larry Howard (who arguably drove Oswald to Silvia Odio's door). Others include David Ferrie, Clay Shaw, Guy Bannister, Carlos Bringuier, Carlos Quiroga, Ed Butler, Gerry Patrick Hemming, Jack Ruby and perhaps some trusted members of DRE and Interpen. (Most of these people had been gun runners and suppliers for Cuba’s revolution and counter-revolution. Harry Dean falls into this same category, which fact supports his account.)

I WOULD NOT AGREE, A NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN NO - LIKE QUIROGA - KNEW THAT THERE WAS MORE TO OSWALD THAN HIS ANTI-CASTRO IMAGE. THAT WAS VERY DANGEROUS FOR BOTH THE FBI AND THE CIA BUT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE OPERATIONAL PLOT - I DO AGREE DOZENS OF PEOPLE KNEW ENOUGH TO CONSIDER HIM AS A PATSY BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN OPERATIONAL INVOLVEMENT IN DALLAS. OTHER THAN RUBY I WOULD NOT SIGN UP TO ANY OF THE NAMES YOU LIST AS OPERATIONAL FOR DALLAS

(2) Oswald was unknowingly involved in the JFK shooting. He realized far too late that he had been made their patsy. He might have survived his fate if only he had blurted out their names to the News Media when he had the chance – yet even then he behaved as though he still had a chance of obtaining “legal assistance.”

I'D AGREE ON THAT POINT...THE INTERESTING QUESTION IS IF HE ACTUALLY KNEW ANY NAMES TO BLURT OUT...REAL NAMES THAT IS....THE ONLY QUESTION IN MY MIND IS WHETHER OR NOT HE HAD PERSONALLY MET RUBY AND SEALED HIS FATE BY NOT POINTING HIM OUT IN THE PRESS CONFERENCE

(3) Yes, the FBI treated Oswald as a potential informant after he returned from the USSR. He was perhaps an “informal” source of information who received small sums from the local FBI (as described by Wes Swearingen). Everything changed when FBI Agents had to conform to Hoover’s dictum that Oswald must be the "Lone Assassin."

AGREED

(4) It seems to me, however, that Oswald was openly Anti-Castro to those who knew him well -- i.e. the conspirators. These right-wing insiders knew this by Oswald's visible relationship to Shaw, Ferrie and Banister, who were fairly well-known. Ed Butler and Carlos Bringuier played along with Bannister's fake FPCC scenario and organized a media campaign around it in August 1963.

I WOULD SAY YES AND NO ON THIS, SOME FOLKS IN NO WERE AWARE HE WAS FAKING, OTHERS MAY HAVE BEEN MISLED OR JUST PLAIN CONFUSED. WHAT WE DO KNOW FROM MARTINO IS THAT THE ONLY I IMPORTANT OPERATIONAL PEOPLE THERE, HIS TWO CUBAN EXILE CONTACTS KNEW THAT OSWALD WAS NOT TRULY ANTI CASTRO AND ALSO THAT HE WAS PROVIDING INFO TO THE FBI OR AT LEAST SOME INTEL AGENCY

Anti-Castro types made a deal with Oswald through Shaw and Bannister in which Oswald would present himself as Pro-Castro. This is when confusion arose within the Cuban Exile community; Oswald got a street reputation of being a double-agent or a secret Communist (as Silvia Odio’s relatives had warned her about Oswald). Thus pro-Castro posers and perhaps some pro-Castro types would later be fooled by Oswald's charade.

NO PROOF OR EVEN LEADS TO SUGGEST THE DEAL WAS THOUGH BANNISTER AT ALL, ACCORDING TO ALL REPORTS THE TWO MEN IN QUESTION WERE NOT FROM NO, PICKED UP ON OSWALD FROM INFO PASSED TO MIAMI AN APPROACHED HIM COLD...THEY WERE UNKNOWN TO THE PEOPLE IN NO WHO ACTUALLY DID SUSPECT THEM OF BEING CASTRO AGENTS

(5) It seems to me (based partly on Harry Dean's memoirs) that Bannister's “sheep-dipping” program was ordered and directed by Ex-General Edwin Walker. I say Walker sought revenge for Oswald's shooting at him back in April 1963. Walker and Bannister were Minutemen pals – so this was the most secret pact of all. Even the DRE and Interpen might have been ignorant of this pact, IMHO.

COOPERATION FROM BANNISTER WOULD HAVE COME FROM FBI AND POSSIBLY CIA CONTACTS; BANNISTERS OFFICERS HAD EARLIER BEEN CHECKED OUT AS A FRONT PRIOR TO THE BOP AND CIA HAD WORKED WITH BOTH HE AND INCA ON ANTI CASTRO PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES. OSWALD WAS SIMPLY VETTED BY THOSE TYPES OF PEOPLE AND BANNISTER TOLD HIS OWN FOLKS JUST TO LET HIM ALONE AND NOT HASSLE HIM...THAT WAS THE EXTENT OF IT

(6) We agree that the key problem with the Odio Incident is that it conflicted directly with J. Edgar Hoover’s demand that Lee Oswald must be the “Lone Assassin.” Arlen Specter would do anything to force all evidence into the “Lone Assassin” theory, even hiding or destroying evidence if necessary. I suspect, however, that Specter’s motivation was purely sycophantic and ambitious.

AGREED, ON BOTH POINTS

(7) Not only did Hoover document his conclusions by December, but even as early as 29 November 1963, Hoover’s phone call to LBJ already set out the main details of the “Lone Assassin” theory – which remained intact for the remainder of the Warren Commission Hearings.

THE LONE ASSASSIN SCENARIO WAS ESTABLISHED AS EARLY AS NOV. 24 IN A NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL MEETING. HOOVER WAS GIVEN HIS MARCHING ORDERS BY LBJ AND ACTUALLY OBJECTED TO THEM BRIEFLY WHEN THE FBI REPORT WAS DONE, ASKING IF HE COULD LEAVE SUGGESTIONS OF A CUBAN CONSPIRACY IN IT...HOOVER IGNORED HIM, AS HE USUALLY DID.

(8) I agree with you, Larry, that FBI reports about the DRE are missing because Oswald was probably a major topic of discussion among the DRE, and Hoover could never afford to make that public.

PROBABLY MORE OF A PROBLEM FOR THE CIA THOUGH BECAUSE PURSUING IT WOULD HAVE EXPOSED A WHOLE HOST OF PROGRAMS INCLUDING SOME STUDENT PROGRAMS AND SOME JOINT FBI AND CIA PROGRAMS SUCH AS AMSANTA

(9) Regarding Hall, Howard and Bannister – and also Hemming – if I can place them together at any point in 1963, I feel justified in naming them all as core conspirators. Hemming told Weberman that he himself offered Oswald double the market price for his rifle if Oswald would bring it to the TSBD on 22 November 1963 – thus Hemming confessed to being a conspirator.

MY SUSPICION IS THAT HEMMING WAS AWARE OF A PLOT AND MAY HAVE BEEN APPROACHED; HE TOLD TWYMAN HE WAS ON THE TRAIN EARLY BUT GOT OFF. HE MAY SIMPLY HAVE REFERRED HARGRAVES. I DON'T THINK ANYBODY OF A PROFESSIONAL NATURE - LIKE SAY RIP ROBERTSON OR TONY SOFORZA WOULD HAVE TRUSTED THE REST OF THE LOT AS FAR AS THEY COULD THROW THEM

(10) My theory affirms your suspicion that the mainstream right-wing found Oswald on their radar specifically because of the “sheep dipping” farce accomplished by the individuals I named above in New Orleans during the summer of 1963.

Harry Dean’s memoirs suggest exactly the same scenario. It was the media events in New Orleans featuring Lee Harvey Oswald as an outspoken and courageous officer of the FPCC that caught the attention of the John Birch Society in San Marino, California.

I CAN'T ARGUE THAT IT DIDN'T DRAW ATTENTION, AGAIN MY PERSONAL AND SUBJECTIVE OPINION IS THAT WALKER BY 1963 HAD PERSONAL AND OTHER PROBLEMS TO THE EXTENT HE COULD NOT HAVE ORGANIZED HIS WAY OUT OF A PAPER SACK...JUST MY OWN ASSESSMENT OF COURSE.

IMHO, however, even Harry Dean did not realize at that time that Ex-General Edwin Walker had previously planned with Guy Bannister to “sheep-dip” Oswald as early as Easter Sunday, 1963 – the very date that Walker learned from some government official that Lee Harvey Oswald was a suspect in his April shooting (according to Walker's personal papers). Days later, David Ferrie would invite Oswald to New Orleans for a "special task," IMHO. That's when Oswald moved.

WHATEVER HAPPENED AT WALKERS IS STILL AN OPEN QUESTION TO ME OTHER THAN THAT SOMEBODY STAGED IT....TO ENHANCE WALKER'S IMAGE AND RAISE SOME MONEY

(11) To link the New Orleans “sheep dip” to the JFK murder in Dallas, I would name five suspects: (i) Ex-General Edwin Walker; (ii) mercenary Gerry Patrick Hemming; (iii) mercenary Larry Howard; (iv) mercenary Loran Hall; and (v) DRE leader Carlos Bringuier. All five moved freely between New Orleans and Dallas.

OSWALD'S ACTIVITIES IN NEW ORLEANS SET UP THE CONTEXT FOR HIM AS A PATSY, THE NEXT STEP AND THE ONE NECESSARY TO CHART THE OPERATIONAL PATH WAS IN MEXICO CITY AND HAD TO INVOLVE PERSONNEL FAMILIAR WITH THE CI ACTIVITIES AND TECHNICAL CAPABILITIES OF THE COUNTER INTELLIGENCE SET UP THERE..

I see how you connect the dots, Larry. I think that these extra connections that Harry Dean and I offer will harmonize fairly well with your own connections. Please tell me if you think I’ve missed something major.

HONESTLY I THINK WHAT YOU ARE MISSING PAUL IS THAT DALLAS WAS ORGANIZED BY TRUE INTELLIGENCE AND PARAMILITARY PROFESSIONALS WITH INSIDE INFORMATION ABOUT OSWALD AND WITH CONNECTIONS TO JACK RUBY FOR LOCAL FIELD SUPPORT....AND THOSE CONNECTIONS GO DIRECTLY BACK TO JOHN ROSELLI

Paul Trejo · March 26, 2014

....HONESTLY I THINK WHAT YOU ARE MISSING PAUL IS THAT DALLAS WAS ORGANIZED BY TRUE INTELLIGENCE AND PARAMILITARY PROFESSIONALS WITH INSIDE INFORMATION ABOUT OSWALD AND WITH CONNECTIONS TO JACK RUBY FOR LOCAL FIELD SUPPORT....AND THOSE CONNECTIONS GO DIRECTLY BACK TO JOHN ROSELLI

Larry, I appreciate your feedback on this thread. I agree with most of what you say – yet where I remain unconvinced I think I have good reasons, as follows:

1.0) You emphasize the Parrot Jungle FBI report – and I see your point. Hemming also claimed that Hoover tried to frame Interpen for a staged assassination attempt on JFK at Miami airport. There was much skullduggery on the East Coast. There were many JFK plots.

2.0) I also agree that Nagell’s NOLA contacts are interesting because they point to a DC plot and Oswald’s own letters confirm it. This pulls the Miami personnel into the Dallas scenario.

2.1) The DC plot was also seeking a patsy. Nagell realized that all these plots were so patsy-hungry that he himself could be transformed into a patsy if he wasn’t diligent (TMWKTM).

3.0) Yet you rejected my list of names as Dallas Operators (excepting Jack Ruby). I can include Miami players and CIA-Mafia players. But the Dallas Operation was larger than these, I say.

3.1) I say the Dallas ground-crew included local Dallas rightists. Outsiders managed higher-level problems (like the autopsy, the limo, the Secret Service, the 4th Army at Fort Sam Houston, the FBI and the Warren Commission). The local crew managed the shooting itself.

3.2) You also separate the Anti-Castro/Pro-Castro Oswald puzzle from Dallas Operations. But the Dallas Operation was impossible without a viable patsy.

3.3) The Sheep-dip of Oswald in NOLA – directly managed by Bannister, Shaw, Ferrie, Ed Butler and Carlos Bringuier, had no other purpose than to document Lee Harvey Oswald as Communist, and thus a viable patsy. The Sheep-dip was a long time in the planning. I say it goes back to April 1963.

3.4) The Sheep-dip of Oswald began when he moved to NOLA only days after his alleged attempt to kill Edwin Walker.

3.5) Dick Russell, TMWKTM, wrote that George De Mohrenschildt and Volkmar Schmidt (and possibly the Paines) had urged Oswald – since January 1963 – to hate Walker. Oswald took them too seriously on 10 April 1963. De Mohrenschildt, terrified of the consequences, fled to Haiti after telling the Voshinins his evidence that Oswald shot at Walker.

3.6) That was on Easter Sunday. The Voshinins then called the FBI right away (says Russell). Somebody then called Edwin Walker to warn him. We know this last part is true from Walker’s personal papers.

3.7) It was no coincidence that Oswald moved to NOLA to be Sheep-dipped only a few days after he shot at Walker, when Walker found out that it was Oswald. I think the evidence is substantial here.

4.0) John Martino suggests that the only important Operations guys in Dallas were two Cuban Exiles -- who knew that Oswald was feeding data to the FBI and other Agencies. I suggest that John Martino and Harry Dean both saw a part of a larger plot. Like two blind men touching two different parts of the same elephant, they arrived at widely different conclusions.

4.1) Gerry Patrick Hemming (who figures for neither Martino nor Dean) told Al Weberman that he personally called Lee Harvey Oswald to offer him double the price of his rifle if he would take it to the TSBD on 22Nov63. Even though Hemming was outside Dallas, he was still a participant.

4.2) Donald Philips and Tom Wilson produced photographic evidence to count nine separate gunmen, 12 shots in three meticulously-timed volleys, six radio coordinators and countless phony (or off-duty) police, Secret Service agents and other shills at Dealey Plaza.

4.3) Philips and Wilson also identify DPD officers Roscoe White and JD Tippit as part of the Operation on the grassy knoll. The fact that DPD Chief Jesse Curry was actually driving the lead car which led the JFK motorcade down Elm Street, and immediately named the TSBD alone as the shooting site, makes him into a major suspect, IMHO.

5.0) I cannot agree that Bannister’s only role was to tell his own folks to let Oswald alone. Here’s why:

5.1) Bannister’s office address was on the FPCC flyers that Oswald handed out. Oswald’s phony FPCC office was in Bannister’s offices.

5.2) Oswald had known David Ferrie for years, and Ferrie worked in Bannister’s office.

5.3) Bannister had worked with Ed Butler and INCA before -- and it was INCA which ultimately Sheep-dipped Oswald with police reports, newspaper reports, a radio program and a TV program. Ed Butler used the acting abilities of Carlos Bringuier.

5.4) The NOLA Sheep-dip was utterly indispensable for the Dallas Operation. Bannister was the guiding force of the Sheep-dip. I suspect Bannister as an integral part of the Dallas Operation, even if he never set foot in Dallas.

6.0) I realize that I must still show with external documents that Walker’s political clout was still viable to the right-wing, including to people like Kent Courtney and Guy Bannister.

6.1) Walker was shot at. That meant nothing to most Americans, but to the radical right, and to Guy Bannister, a fellow Minuteman, it would have meant plenty.

6.2) Obviously Bannister coordinated his efforts with the FBI and possibly the CIA -- but his Sheep-dip project was timed to immediately follow Lee Harvey Oswald’s shot at General Walker.

6.3) The personal papers of Edwin Walker tend toward this conclusion, IMHO.

7.0) Your opinion about Edwin Walker appears to be the standard liberal opinion, Larry, that Walker was a fruitcake. He led the riots at Ole Miss, so JFK and RFK put him in an insane asylum. For many people, that was the end of Walker’s credibility.

7.1) Yet for the American right-wing the opposite was true. Please consider the following:

7.2) The ACLU and psychiatrist Thomas Szasz demanded his release! Walker was released from the insane asylum in only four days – with all but an apology.

7.3) A Mississippi Grand Jury acquitted Walker of all charges stemming from the Ole Miss riots in January 1963.

7.4) The John Birch Society published a 1963 book, "Invasion of Mississippi," by Earl Lively, condemning JFK and defending Edwin Walker with regard to the Ole Miss riots.

7.5) In early February 1963 Walker went on a coast-to-coast speaking tour with segregationist preacher Billy James Hargis, to the irritation of American liberals (like Michael and Ruth Paine, George and Jeanne De Mohrenschildt and Volkmar Schmidt).

7.6) During this rightist tour, liberals in Dallas worked on Lee Harvey Oswald to turn his hostility away from the Bay of Pigs and onto General Walker. They used psychological methods for this (as Volkmar Schmidt admitted).

7.7) Then Oswald purchased a rifle and a gun and began toying with photographs of himself as a modern Robin Hood -- and probably made fake photo variations of Marina’s single photo, at his workplace at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall, which had sophisticated camera equipment. Roscoe White was probably one of his models for Oswald’s variations (which would give Oswald plausible deniability, if needed). The Worker newspaper later admitted receiving one of these photos from Oswald.

7.8) The very night after Edwin Walker returned from his coast-to-coast speaking tour, Lee Harvey Oswald tried to kill Walker in his own home in Dallas – but he missed.

7.9) Edwin Walker believed that JFK and RFK sent Lee Harvey Oswald to kill him. He was enraged. This is clear from his pesonal papers. At this point, a former US General became personally involved in the Cuban connection of revenge against JFK. I think there is ample evidence for this.

8.0) You suspect, Larry, that Walker, a former US General, had become incompetent to organize anything. Yet only one month before the JFK murder, Walker personally organized the John Birch Society humiliation of Adlai Stevenson in Dallas.

8.1) Note that Walker organized the Adlai attack on October 23rd, and was nowhere in town the next night, October 24th, when his Team carried out their orders with precision.

9.0) You suggest that Oswald’s trek in Mexico City was to become involved in the CIA details of the Dallas Operation – and that would be a fair guess – except nobody has enough evidence to draw a conclusion about the Mexico City episode, yet.

9.1) Insofar as Oswald was the patsy, it would have been folly for the Operators to involve Oswald too much in the details.

9.2) Oswald took his INCA credentials – his NOLA newspaper clippings – to Mexico City. Bannister and Butler evidently lied to Oswald – i.e. Oswald believed that he could get easy passage into Cuba (probably to kill Fidel Castro) because he was an FPCC officer.

9.3) Bannister and Butler knew that was a lie. They knew Oswald would be turned down in the first few moments he applied. Even the Cuban Embassy was not that sloppy.

9.4) Oswald was dashed – he was probably led to believe during his Sheep-dip that he would be given a ton of money and a parade for his role in the Cuba caper. Or, if he failed, he would get nothing.

9.5) Thus, after failing, the real Operators were there in Mexico City to pick up the broken pieces of Lee Oswald’s life.

9.6) Harry Dean’s memoirs suggest a viable scenario. Loran Hall and Larry Howard drove Lee Harvey Oswald to the DACA offices of Guy Gabaldon.

9.7) Gabaldon’s book, "America Betrayed," places him squarely in the John Birch Society ideology.

9.8) According to Harry Dean, Guy Gabaldon fed Lee Harvey Oswald a line – and some cash. Oswald’s new ‘task’ would be in Dallas – and he would simply sit tight and wait for instructions.

9.9) Oswald was clearly aware that something ugly was being planned -- but the details would have been kept from him.

9.10) Oswald’s role, according to Gerry Patrick Hemming, was to bring his Manlicher-Carcano rifle to the TSBD building on Fri22Nov63, and some underworld person would pick it up, and Hemming would pay Oswald double the market price for it.

9.11) That’s the last contact that Lee Harvey Oswald had with the Operators until his final moment with Jack Ruby.

10.0) Larry, you conclude that I’m missing the data showing that the Dallas Operation was organized by serious CIA and paramilitary professionals, with support from the Mafia, like Johnny Roselli and Jack Ruby.

10.1) Actually, I considered that, yet my response is Jim Garrison’s: “yes, the Mafia were involved, but at a lower level."

10.2) The Mafia does not assassinate with sniper rifles; their hits are like the hit on Lee Harvey Oswald.

10.3) I include the CIA and paramilitary because Fletcher Prouty, personally involved at close range testifies to it, and even names General Edward Lansdale as a key conspirator.

10.4) Only Operators in the CIA and Pentagon (like Ed Lansdale) could organize the autopsy manipulation, the media and the control of the Warren Commission; granted.

10.5) Still, former FBI Agent and whistle-blower, Wesley Swearingen, also stops with a CIA-Mafia plot, and my reply to Swearingen is this: I think you underestimate the ground-crew.

10.6) The ground-crew in Dallas had to include the Dallas Police. This was made clear by Penn Jones and Roger Craig. Dealey Plaza was always under complete control of Dallas Police.

10.7) The parking lot behind the picket fence of the grassy knoll was actually a parking lot for Dallas policemen. Dallas Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig said that all DPD officers who rented a space there got a key for the one lock for the one gate in that entire lot. It was always closed to the public.

10.8) Just because no on-duty DPD cops were scheduled to be there at that hour, that says nothing about off-duty cops.

10.9) Philips and Wilson claim photographic evidence of multiple uniformed policemen behind the picket fence at the moment of the JFK murder.

10.10) William Turner wrote that membership in an extreme right-wing organization was practically mandatory for all DPD officers in 1963.

10.11) One of the most active right-wing organizations in Dallas in 1963 was the "Friends of Walker."

I’m currently researching the membership of DPD officers in the Friends of Walker organization. I think Wes Swearingen is missing this critical piece of history. I invite further participation in my exploration of the organizational powers of Ex-General Edwin Walker.

I conclude with the observation that the memoirs of Harry Dean place Ex-General Walker at one of the highest points of power with regard to the JFK murder.

Loran Hall and Larry Howard figure larger in the Dallas Operation than ordinarily thought. The same is true of Gerry Patrick Hemming. The same is true of Ex-General Edwin Walker.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited March 27, 2014 by Paul Trejo

Thomas Graves · March 27, 2014

[...]

Paul Trejo wrote:

4.3) [...] The fact that DPD Chief Jesse Curry was actually driving the lead car which led the JFK motorcade down Elm Street, and immediately named the TSBD alone as the shooting site, makes him into a major suspect, IMHO.

Uhhh, that's not true, Paul.

Where in the world did you come up with that ?

Police tapes from that day show that Chief Curry, right after radioing in "Approaching Triple Underpass", immediately said, "Go to the hospital - Parkland Hospital. Have them stand by." And then, Paul, the very next thing he said was, "Get a man on top of that triple underpass and see what happened up there."

He doesn't say anything about the TSBD, Paul...

A few seconds later Sheriff Decker says, "Have my office move all available men out of my office into the railway yard to try to determine what happened in there and to hold everything secure until Homicide and other investigators should get there."

Now, regarding who did say anything about the TSBD over the police radio:

1) At 12:35 Patrolman C. A. Haygood radioed in, "I just talked to a guy up here who was standing close to it and the best he could tell it came from the Texas School Book Depository Building here with that Hertz renting sign on top."

Chief Curry still hasn't said anything about the TSBD....

2) Then at 12:36 Sergeant D. V. Harkness radioed, "I have a witness that says that it came from the fifth floor of the Texas Book Depository Store."

Chief Curry still hasn't said anything about the TSBD....

3) At 12:37 Patrolman L.L. Hill radioed, "Get some men up here to cover this school depository building. It's believed the shot came from, as you see it on Elm Street, it would be upper right hand corner, second window from the end." (Apparently Hill was with James Tague and possibly Bill Newman when he radioed in because he said, "I have one guy that was possibly hit by a richochet from the bullet off the concrete and another one saw the President slump.")

4) Also at 12:37 Patrolman E.D. Brewer, apparently with Patrolman L.L. Hill, radioed that he was about "three quarters of a block from" the TSBD and also said, "We have a man here who says he saw him pull the weapon back through the window off of the second floor from the southeast corner of that depository building." The dispatcher asked him if the TSBD was "covered off" yet and when told that it wasn't, told Brewer (and Hill?) to "pull on down there."

5) Also at 12:37 Assistant Chief of Police Charles Batchelor pipes in with this disjointed radio communication, "Can you give us any information as to what happened for these people out here, evidently they had - seriousness of it - the President involved - 1 is at Parkland, along with Dallas 1. We have word it is unknown - Texas Depository Store, corner of Elm and Field - officers are now surrounding and searching the building. (Garbled)"

But Chief Curry still hasn't said a word about the TSBD....

6) At 12:42 Police Inspector J.H. Sawyer gets his two cents in, "We need some more men down at the Texas School Book Depository. We should have some on Main if we could get someone to pick up and bring them down here."

At 12:44 Inspector Sawyer reports over the radio, "The type of weapon looked like a 30-30 rifle or some type of Winchester" and, when asked to describe the clothing the shooter was wearing, relays this problematic description (from a mysterious, still-unknown "witness"): "About 30, 5'10", 165 pounds."

7) At which point (12:45) the dispatcher broadcasts this infamous statement, "Attention all squads, the suspect in the shooting at Elm and Houston is supposed to be an unknown white male, approximately 30, 165 pounds, slender build, armed with what is thought to be a 30-30 rifle, - repeat, unknown white male, approximately 30, 165 pounds, slender build. No further description at this time or information, 12:45 p.m."

Captain C.E. Talbert then asks Sawyer, through the dispatcher, if the suspect was still in the building, and Sawyer replies, "On this building, it's unknown whether he is still in the building or not known if he was there in the first place."

8) Interestingly, Sergeant G.D. Henslee then pipes up and says, "Well, all the information we have received, 9 [inspector Sawyer], indicates that it did come from about the 5th or 4th floor of that building [the TSBD].

And, still, Chief Curry hasn't said a word about the TSBD, Paul......

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/

--Tommy :sun

P.S. As far as Chief Curry's possible complicity in the plot against JFK, I would say that his actions are the least suspicious of all of the Dallas upper-level police officers.

Edited March 27, 2014 by Thomas Graves

Larry Hancock · March 27, 2014

Paul, I think you have made it clear over time who you picture as the villains and as I've said, I have no wish to argue or debate anyone's personal view of the conspiracy.

My most concrete view of the origins and nature of the conspiracy is in NEXUS - so I've made my view of the villains clear as well.

At this point I'm perfectly content to let everyone draw their own conclusions. There's no need to keep covering the same ground repeatedly so I will leave the thread to

you. I'm always happy to respond to specific questions, especially about what's in my books and if anyone wishes personal opinions they can always email me....

-- Regards, Larry

Paul Trejo · March 27, 2014

4.3) [...] The fact that DPD Chief Jesse Curry was actually driving the lead car which led the JFK motorcade down Elm Street, and immediately named the TSBD alone as the shooting site, makes him into a major suspect, IMHO.

Uhhh, that's not true, Paul.

Where in the world did you come up with that ?

...

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/

--Tommy

P.S. As far as Chief Curry's possible complicity in the plot against JFK, I would say that his actions are the least suspicious of all of the Dallas upper-level police officers.

Since you asked, Tommy, I got that claim from Joachim Joesten and his book, Oswald: Assassin or Fall Guy (1964) which I thought was fairly well documented.

Since your account differs sharply from Joesten's account, I'll look deeper into the primary sources.

All best,

--Paul Trejo

Paul Trejo · March 27, 2014

...I'm always happy to respond to specific questions, especially about what's in my books and if anyone wishes personal opinions they can always email me....
-- Regards, Larry

Thanks, Larry. I have just a few final observations and questions about your, Appendix H: Odio Revisited, in SWHT/2010.

We tend to agree that Oswald in NOLA was in contact with pro-Castro and anti-Castro Cuban Exiles, as well as double agents. There were Cuban Exiles from Miami who tried to make Oswald into their patsy for a possible Washington DC murder of JFK. We have hard evidence gleaned from letters from Oswald's own hand to the FPCC and CPUSA, about a move to Baltimore.

This drama was witnessed by Richard Case Nagell -- it involved a phony Castro supporter and a genuine Castro supporter. The skullduggery was thick..

You suggest that a JFK murder in DC was possibly foiled by Nagell’s efforts, or by Oswald's failure to obtain a Cuban visa in time, or both. In any case, you opine that the Washington DC plotters were -- at a high level -- the same as the Dallas plotters -- correct?

You then suggest that these plotters took advantage of Oswald's trip to Mexico City to form a totally a new image of Oswald as a "loose cannon" that could be traced to Fidel Castro.

If I have that right, then my question is why did these plotters believe that Oswald went to Mexico in the first place? Or are we possibly observing two sets of plotters -- those who sent Oswald to Mexico, and those who formed a new plot involving Oswald as a "loose cannon"?

There is also disagreement between JFK researchers about whether Oswald was really recorded at those Embassies in Mexico City -- Oswald's photographs and voice are nowhere to be found. Also, the descriptions of Oswald given by the clerks often fails to match Oswald at all.

You then suggest that the Dallas plot only became firm as of October 1st, after Oswald's failure to get a Cuban Visa. But what were the plotters hoping to do in case Oswald succeeded in getting a Cuban Visa? Again, are we looking at two sets of plotters here?

(In Harry Dean's scenario, the original plan given by Guy Gabaldon in Southern California was for Loran Hall and Larry Howard to deliver Oswald to Gabaldon in Mexico City, and then for Gabaldon to give Oswald phony instructions regarding Dallas. As Harry Dean heard the plot first-hand, the JFK murder was to take place at the Trade Mart. Yet this Dallas plot was firmly set in place two weeks before Loran Hall and Larry Howard made their trip to give Oswald a ride to Mexico.)

Your theory and Harry Dean's theory agree fully that the setup of Oswald in Dallas was done without Oswald's direct knowledge. Oswald was totally ignorant of any role he was playing in Dallas from the time he arrived there -- so he had to be managed.

If Gerry Patrick Hemming was telling the truth when he claimed that he offered Lee Harvey Oswald double the market price for his rifle if he would bring it to the TSBD on 22Nov63, then this is a bit of information that Harry Dean did not know about.

First, it suggests that plans had been changed to murder JFK at Dealey Plaza, instead of at the Trade Mart, as Harry Dean expected. Secondly, it means that Hemming was more deeply involved with Loran Hall and Larry Howard than Harry Dean knew.

You then suggest, Larry, that during the month of October 1963, the plotters began selecting other patsies -- just in case they might be needed. Jack Ruby was a candidate, as was Loran Hall and possibly Carlos Quiroga.

I would add here that Guy Gabaldon acted suspiciously one night in a Los Angeles restaurant when out of the blue he hired a female restaurant photographer to take a dozen photographs of Harry Dean from many different angles. Was Harry Dean also considered as a candidate for patsy? After all, Harry could also be associated with Fidel Castro in official records. Two others feared they could be made into patsies because of their past affiliation with Fidel Castro -- Hemming and Nagell.

Following the murder of JFK, all of these guys would be reported in contact with Oswald before the assassination. But the information was never used. For example, as you point out, Larry, the FBI can be shown to have officially avoided investigating either Quiroga or Hall to the fullest. Is it possible that this frustrated the actual plotters?

Harry Dean and I affirm today that the plotters who murdered JFK were hoping for the USA to invade Cuba and kill Fidel Castro -- first and foremost. Yet the "Lone Assassin" theory of J. Edgar Hoover (and promoted actively by LBJ, Earl Warren and Allen Dulles) would politically undercut that hope.

Comments on any of this?

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited March 27, 2014 by Paul Trejo

Harry Dean: Memoirs

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Announcements