Pure Speculation

[Charles Black]

Charlie, it is not my intention to give offence. If I have then I am sorry.

To understand my references to God, you need to read my two rather longer posts in this thread which deal with ideas of American exceptionalism, and the mythology which surrounds this belief. Many countries before yours have had this belief (My own included.) And it generally leads to no good.  Steve.

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Here here to that, Steve. There's no such thing as God's chosen people, it's a supreme arrogance for any race to claim they are.

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Thanks Mark, It really was not my intention to upset anyone with my comments, and certainly not Charlie, a man who's postings here I usually agree with. But the idea of American exceptionalism is an established fact.This on its own is not a particular problem, But look at the Nazi's if you want an extreem example of where this kind of thinking can lead.. Steve.

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Steve and Mark,

It was not my intent to take on the "EMPIRE", but if need be I will.

I frankly don't place much merit in what either of you feel religiously as I don't know what that is and could care even less.

I do take offense to your not well hidden references to what you perceive to be American arrogance!

Not in any way backing off, I must mention that even given my prior military, I have been, am now, and will continue to be vehemently opposed to the actions of both your country and mine regarding Iraq.

That said however, I am not about to sit back and listen to rhetoric from a country that proudly and vociferously boasted for hundreds of years that "The Sun Never Sets on the British Empire". Speak of "ARROGANCE"?

And then you refer to us as NAZI'S. The people that are in large part responsible for the fact that you are not posting in German.

And just as a parting thought, do either of you have direct communication with the Divine who has so advised you that there are no "chosen people"? Please remember that it was not me who introduced the references of "God's chosen people" / " more favored by the deity" / "mythological perception..."

I think that you two should "re - think" or possibly begin thinking more deeply of what you have said and inferred. Better yet, you should probably quit while you are only behind rather than making yourselves one!

Charlie Black

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Charlie,

It's probably not the right Forum for this kind of debate as it won't get us closer to finding a solution to this unsolved crime. However, if you have a direct communication link to the Divine, I would be interested to know who his "chosen people" are. Perhaps you could post it in the "Religion" section of the Forum.

p.s. I'm not British.

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So sorry Mark

For the misinterpretation. It was probably foolish of me but when you stated that "there are no chosen people", I just assumed that you would not have said this so forcefully if you did not have a Direct Link.

Charlie Black

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Charlie, couple of points.

1, I did most emphatically did not say that Americans were Nazi's, if thats the impression I gave then once again sorry. The Nazi doctrine was however built on the idea of German exceptionalism. Divine ordination is a very dangerous idea, especially when combined with military power. Quote on "Time Life, 1945, "The victory in the war gives the US the right to exert upon the world the full impact of our influence, for such purposes as we see fit, and by such means as we see fit"quote off. " God told me to go after Saddam" George Bush.

2, Is Britain arrogant, you bet your socks we are. But I believe I have already admitted this in a previous post. The only thing the sun never set on was our ego's

Regards Steve.

[Mark Stapleton]

Charlie, it is not my intention to give offence. If I have then I am sorry.

To understand my references to God, you need to read my two rather longer posts in this thread which deal with ideas of American exceptionalism, and the mythology which surrounds this belief. Many countries before yours have had this belief (My own included.) And it generally leads to no good.  Steve.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Here here to that, Steve. There's no such thing as God's chosen people, it's a supreme arrogance for any race to claim they are.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks Mark, It really was not my intention to upset anyone with my comments, and certainly not Charlie, a man who's postings here I usually agree with. But the idea of American exceptionalism is an established fact.This on its own is not a particular problem, But look at the Nazi's if you want an extreem example of where this kind of thinking can lead.. Steve.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Steve and Mark,

It was not my intent to take on the "EMPIRE", but if need be I will.

I frankly don't place much merit in what either of you feel religiously as I don't know what that is and could care even less.

I do take offense to your not well hidden references to what you perceive to be American arrogance!

Not in any way backing off, I must mention that even given my prior military, I have been, am now, and will continue to be vehemently opposed to the actions of both your country and mine regarding Iraq.

That said however, I am not about to sit back and listen to rhetoric from a country that proudly and vociferously boasted for hundreds of years that "The Sun Never Sets on the British Empire". Speak of "ARROGANCE"?

And then you refer to us as NAZI'S. The people that are in large part responsible for the fact that you are not posting in German.

And just as a parting thought, do either of you have direct communication with the Divine who has so advised you that there are no "chosen people"? Please remember that it was not me who introduced the references of "God's chosen people" / " more favored by the deity" / "mythological perception..."

I think that you two should "re - think" or possibly begin thinking more deeply of what you have said and inferred. Better yet, you should probably quit while you are only behind rather than making yourselves one!

Charlie Black

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Charlie,

It's probably not the right Forum for this kind of debate as it won't get us closer to finding a solution to this unsolved crime. However, if you have a direct communication link to the Divine, I would be interested to know who his "chosen people" are. Perhaps you could post it in the "Religion" section of the Forum.

p.s. I'm not British.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So sorry Mark

For the misinterpretation. It was probably foolish of me but when you stated that "there are no chosen people", I just assumed that you would not have said this so forcefully if you did not have a Direct Link.

Charlie Black

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Charlie,

I've got no direct link (and I very much like Americans--if I didn't, I probably wouldn't care who killed JFK). What I mean to say, minus the provocative language, is that if ANY nation, race or creed can lay claim to being the chosen people, then I would love to see the proof (in the "Religion" section, of course).

[John Dolva]

an interesting and thought provoking series of posts

what I take out of it is the possible important contribution of mind-set to a group of conspirators

rightly or wrongly attitudes are often the things that bind us

to continue one thread of mine, theat of the confederate yankee civil war

'

Four years of bloody fighting had saved the Union of states. The northern victory had settled for all time the question of whether states could leave the Union. And it had put to rest the great problem of slavery, which had troubled the nation for so many years.

But the costs were great. More than six hundred thousand men of the north and south lost their lives. Hundreds of thousands more were wounded.

Many of them were bitter. They wanted to continue to fight. They spoke of guerrilla war against the Yankees. But most of the Confederate commanders opposed this. Many, like cavalry General Nathan Bedford Forrest, urged their men to accept defeat.

Said Forrest in a farewell speech to his men:

"It is a clear fact that we are beaten. We would be foolish to try to fight further. The government which we tried to establish is at an end. Civil War -- such as you have just passed through -- naturally causes feelings of bitterness and hatred. We must put these feelings aside. Whatever your responsibilities may be, meet them like men. You have been good soldiers. You can be good citizens."'

maybe some passed this bitterness on to sons to sons and one day in Dallas...

(the above from http://www.voanews.com/specialenglish/2005-06-22-voa2.cfm)

[Tim Gratz]

Stephen wrote:

Hi Charlie, sorry if i'm reading you wrong,but do you mean to say that you believe that you are one of Gods chosen people. Or that America is more favoured by the diety than other lands?

Stephen: Please read "Angel in the Whirlwind." That should answer your question!

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Stephen wrote:

Hi Charlie, sorry if i'm reading you wrong,but do you mean to say that you believe that you are one of Gods chosen people. Or that America is more favoured by the diety than other lands?

Stephen:  Please read "Angel in the Whirlwind."  That should answer your question!

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Tim, I shall procure it from my local library this W/E.. Steve.

[Tim Gratz]

Stephen, it is the story of how the Americans won the Revolutionary War.

It mentions one incident that implies, as the verse states, "Surely there was an angel in the whirlwind" that assisted in the American victory.

Mark Howell once posted some place on this forum that there was one incident in WWII that surely looked like divine providence was protecting English troops from the Nazis.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

I should perhaps make it clear that I am not suggesting America is the first nor last country to believe its actions are sanctioned by a God. Where this does get worrying however is when that country is the only global superpower, and when this generally held belief in a God proscribed destiny, is hi-jacked and shackled to an extremist political agenda. And in this I am only saying what many American members of this Forum have articulated,only they usually go much further in their condemnation than I have. Steve.

[Tim Gratz]

Famous Abe Lincoln quote:

It is not whether God is on OUR side; what is important is that we are on God's side. (Words to that effect.)

In his Second Inaugural Address (shortly before his assassination) Lincoln expressed the possibility that all the blood being shed by both sides in the civil war was a necessary atonement America must pay for having allowed the evils of slavery.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Just to show that I can recognise the mote in mine own eye, some of our less salubrious moments

" Britain will rule the entire Universe" Sir George Wall, British east India Company.

" Rule Britannia, Britannia rules the waves" Jingoist song.

" That demi paradise, that Eden, England" Poem.

" Madam I have seen their backs before" Duke of Wellington, when a group of french officers turned there backs on him at an Embassey function.

"Ireland will either bow the knee, or burn" Oliver Cromwell.

[Tim Gratz]

And how about: "The sun never sets on the British empire."

Contray to that, Key West is made in part by its sunsets. They can be spectacular!

But now we are breathing out a huricane named Dennis which is menacing us!

[John Simkin]

Stephen, it is the story of how the Americans won the Revolutionary War.

You rightly rejected our attempts to impose our system of democracy on you. Bit like what you are trying to do in Iraq. Only difference is that we had more collaborators in America than you have managed to find in Iraq? Never mind, the result will be the same.

[Charles Black]

Hi John,

My thoughts exactly. As I have stated many times both here and on several forums, I strongly opposed American aggression against a defenseless sovereign nation before, during and after my nations uncalled for aggression in Iraq.

I also strongly feel that my current President has dishonored a proud country that for so many years has "legally" sought to aid the truly oppressed and downtrodden in all parts of the world.

My apologies go out in general to the British, whom I have always had the utmost respect and support for, but second only to being a human being, I am an American whose "true values" I and many like me have fought for!

My further apologies if I have disrupted this forum thread.

Charlie Black

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Charlie, you are a gentleman.

And you were right to remind me of my countries certain fate had you not fought with us in WW2. Steve.

[John Simkin]

I also strongly feel that my current President has dishonored a proud country that for so many years has "legally" sought to aid the truly oppressed and downtrodden in all parts of the world.

This is a problem that all powerful nations have. In the past Britain has been guilty of this. In fact, Tony Blair has been attempted to revive this tendency with his actions in Iraq. The only solution to this is for brave men and women to resist this process. I am confident that Americans will do that in the 21st century as we did it in early times.