The CIA Did Not Do It!

[Charles Black]

Tom

Am I misinterpreting, or are you saying that all members of the WC believed that LHO was THE LN assassin?

I am not aking for what they "signed off". Are you saying that they were in agreement that LHO was a lone nut assssin?

Charlie Black

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Tom

Am I misinterpreting, or are you saying that all members of the WC believed that LHO was THE LN assassin?

I am not aking for what they "signed off". Are you saying that they were in agreement that LHO was a lone nut assssin?

Charlie Black

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That I am aware of, they all firmly believed that no evidence existed which would indicate other than LHO as the lone assassin/lone shooter.

At least they were correct in this, if little else.

Tom

[Terry Mauro]

I'm sorry, Mr. Purvis, but I believe the assassination, as well as the cover up, go much further up the ladder than your southern aristocracy. There were many factions attempting to oust Kennedy with their various agendas in mind. Oil? Follow the cobblestone road from Texas to Wall Street, where the granddaddy of oil himself, Rockefeller, had been holding court for a century. Where corporate law firms, such as Sullivan and Cromwell [how do you spell, DULLES?] became legal mouthpieces for the Houses of Finance, making possible the negotiations for the present-day mergers of such houses as MORGAN-CHASE. Do you smell the scent of MONEY, yet? How about the names: NORTHRUP-GRUMMOND, GENERAL DYNAMICS, HUGHES, BELL, MARTIN-MARIETTA? Do any of these names ring a BELL to you, Mr. Purvis? How about MILSPECS? I do believe that was a word with which you could commonly link those companies, as in CONTRACTS, gov. Not to mention whatever funds may have been necessary to cover up, both past and present transgressions and coup d'etats, implemented and deployed during the quest for Manifest Destiny in SEA of the 1950's and 1960's, as well as opening the door to further incursions into the Central Americas, and Middle East, in the 70's, 80's, 90's, on into the present millenium. Money talks, bulls**t walks, Mr. Purvis.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

I'm sorry, Mr. Purvis, but I believe the assassination, as well as the cover up, go much further up the ladder than your southern aristocracy. There were many factions attempting to oust Kennedy with their various agendas in mind.  Oil? Follow the cobblestone road from Texas to Wall Street, where the granddaddy of oil himself, Rockefeller, had been holding court for a century. Where corporate law firms, such as Sullivan and Cromwell [how do you spell, DULLES?] became legal mouthpieces for the Houses of Finance, making possible the negotiations for the present-day mergers of such houses as MORGAN-CHASE. Do you smell the scent of MONEY, yet? How about the names: NORTHRUP-GRUMMOND, GENERAL DYNAMICS, HUGHES, BELL, MARTIN-MARIETTA? Do any of these names ring a BELL to you, Mr. Purvis? How about MILSPECS? I do believe that was a word with which you could commonly link those companies, as in CONTRACTS, gov. Not to mention whatever funds may have been necessary to cover up, both past and present transgressions and coup d'etats, implemented and deployed during the quest for Manifest Destiny in SEA of the 1950's and 1960's, as well as opening the door to further incursions into the Central Americas, and Middle East, in the 70's, 80's, 90's, on into the present millenium. Money talks, bulls**t walks, Mr. Purvis.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, and!

Those who have little or no knowledge or understanding of how covert operations and misdirected concepts are applied continue to sit around and follow David Lifton and the crew of the "Body Kidnappers" ; Clay Shaw and the trials and tribulations of Jim Garrison;, etc; etc; etc.

As with other aspects of this subject, that there are/were undoubtedly certain elements creating multitude of "Smoke" in relationship to who were behind this event, does not mean that this diversion is related to the WC activities.

Ever think that perhaps this is why no one has placed each of the pieces of this puzzle into it's proper alignment?

Glad to know that there are still those who enjoy the chasing of smoke.

Tom

"As long as you keep them chasing the smoke, they are not likely to find the fire".

Old covert ops axiom.

[John Dolva]

Yes, and!

Those who have little or no knowledge or understanding of how covert operations and misdirected concepts are applied continue to sit around and follow David Lifton and the crew of the "Body Kidnappers" ; Clay Shaw and the trials and tribulations of Jim Garrison;, etc; etc; etc.

As with other aspects of this subject, that there are/were undoubtedly certain elements creating multitude of "Smoke" in relationship to who were behind this event, does not mean that this diversion is related to the WC activities.

Ever think that perhaps this is why no one has placed each of the pieces of this puzzle into it's proper alignment?

Glad to know that there are still those who enjoy the chasing of smoke.

Tom

"As long as you keep them chasing the smoke, they are not likely to find the fire".

Old covert ops axiom.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Tom, I would appreciate a comment on angletons 'orchids' from you, please.

from an old post of mine:

...reading about the history of the junkie virus got me thinking about Angletons mirrors and his orchid interests. The junkie virus was distributed in a pirated game level that quickly spread around the world before it was decoded. one of the problems was that the virus had been encrypted, then that encryption had been encrypted and then a third time.

angleton stopped talking about Nosenko when Oswald became the topic. He then firmly steered the conversation to orchids and kept it there during interviews at a number of locations.

:::

Epstein

"" Since Angleton's counterintelligence staff had the responsibility for evaluating information supplied by KGB defectors, I assumed that he would be in a position to clarify what Nosenko had been telling me about Oswald and the KGB. I had no idea then that Nosenko had been the subject of a bitter ten-year debate inside the CIA that had destroyed a half-dozen careers, and which helped precipitate the downfall of Angleton himself. Not knowing the mare's-nest of issues surrounding this case, I expected a simple answer when I asked him "Was there any problem with Nosenko's veracity?"

Angleton answered, with a thin smile, suggesting a deliberate understatement, "Truth is always complicated when its comes to defectors". He then added that the case was "still sensitive" and he could not discuss it. With that, he abruptly cut off the conversation about Nosenko, and moved on to a subject of which I had no understanding at all: Orchids. Ordering another bottle of vintage wine, he went into elaborate detail about the pollinating conditions for Dendrobian, Phalaenopsis, Cattyleas, Cymbidian and other tribes of orchids, especially their deceptive qualities. He explained it had not been the fittest but the most deceptive orchid that had survived. The perpetuation of most species of orchids depend on their ability to misrepresent themselves to insects. Having no food to offer the insects, they had to deceive them into landing on them and carrying their pollen to another orchid in the tribe. Orchids are too dispersed in nature to depend on the wind to carry their pollen.

To accomplish this deception, orchids use color, shape and odor to mimic something that attracts insects to their pods of pollen. Some orchids play on the sexual instincts of insects. The tricocerus orchid, for example, so perfectly mimics in three-dimensional the underside of a female fly, downs to the hairs and smell, that they trigger mating response from passing male flies. Seeing what he thinks is a female fly, the male fly swoops down on the orchid, and attempts to have sex with it-- a process called psuedo-copulation. In doing so, the motion causes the fly to hit the pollen pod, which attaches itself to his underside. The fly thus becomes an unwitting carrier. When the fly then passes another tricocerus orchid, and repeat the frustrating process, it pollinate that orchid.

It gradually became clear that he was not only talking about an insect being manipulated through deception but an intelligence service being similarly duped, seduced, provoked, blinded, lured down false trails and used by an enemy.

The last waitor was waiting for us to leave. It was almost 1 a.m. Angleton seemed drunk and I was disappointed. I had learned more than I ever wanted to know about botany but nothing about the subject at hand. As he got up to leave, I made a final try to get back to Nosenko. "But can Nosenko be believed about the assassination?" I asked.

He was silent for a long moment, obviously disappointed that I had not grasped the meaning of his orchid discourse. "I told you I could not discuss cases," he said. "But you might want to buy orchids for your greenhouse..."

"I don't have a greenhouse, but Nosenko..."

He cut me off. Why don't you come with me to Kensington Orchids next time I go."

The high humidity in Kensington Orchid house so fogged my glasses that I hardly see Angleton. He was examining a long, spiny orchid with a flash light. "See this oncidium orchid," he said, as I approached through the corridor of plants. "It has an almost exact replica of a bee's head on its petals." He meticulously traced the upside-down bee's head for me with his flashlight. "Here's the illusionary foe— the killer bee." Unable to distinguish the simulcrum from the real bee, the wasp is triggered to attack. When it plunges its stinger through the petal, the orchid's pollen pod adheres to it. The wasp then flies away and, if it sees another similar orchid, attacks again. But this time its stinger deposits the pollenate from the first orchid on the second. Angleton explains, " provocation is the means by which this species survives". Such deceptions work in nature, Angleton explains, because the deceived does not have the differentiate the real from the fake.

I asked if the CIA possesses that ability.

"It had counterintelligence," he said, speaking in the past tense.

"So did they know if Nosenko was real or fake."

Without answering, he proceeded on to a nearby odontoglossum orchid. He explained it blinded its carrier through deception. Its nectar odor lured moisquitos into its the coils of its fleshy tubes. When the moisquito pushes around a bend it runs into a spike of pollen pod, which jams into its eye. When it then back out of the tube, it is temporarily blinded. So it flies around until it smells a similar nectar and, again, following the trail of odor into a tube, it runs into another spike, which it willy-nilly pollinates with the pollen in its eye. "Did you come to buy orchids?" he asked.

"I came to Washingtonton for a second interview with Nosenko, tomorrow?" Angleton drove me back to the Madison hotel in his silver Mercedes. On the way back, he played a cassette of an Israel violenist he said he had had privately recorded, Evidently, Angleton's private world extentend to even his music. After several brandies in the Madison bar, he asked me what I planned to ask Nosenko.

"Any suggestions?" I replied.

He then dictated, with precision I had never heard before from anyone, thirteen questions. (see Missing Pieces) They contained names and aliases I had never heard before— Rumyanstev, General Rodin, xxxxov, Colonel Semonov and Corevan, for example, as well as KGB units like the 13th Department of the First Chief Directorate (which was rumored to handle assassinations abroad). I wote them down and asked if he could further elaborate.

"I can't do that. I would be revealing secrets. All you need to know-- and all I can tell you is that Nosenko never got his bona fides-- not while I was at the CIA." ""

::::

There are various interpretations of what Angleton was trying to get across.

Obviously he was a highly intelligent, well read person capable of subtle deceit.

But assuming perhaps in this instance he is telling perhaps not who pulled the trigger but where, in which greenhouse to look? Maybe just an other encryption?

Using the 'triple encryption' as analogy, at the core is the conspiracy proper. For the conspiracy (assassins) to survive undetected it assumes the guise of the illusionary foe, the orchid. The wasp, the fly, and the mosquito are the diverse conspiracy theorists and any legitimate law enforcement attempts to nail the assassin. :: " provocation is the means by which this species (orchid, (assassins)) survives". "Such deceptions work in nature, Angleton explains, because the deceived does not have the (ability to) differentiate the real from the fake".

These theorists and and law enforcement agencies are then manipulated to become the third, public layer. The conspiracy theory 'becomes' the conspiracy.

Because I think this is how it might have worked, I keep on trying to return to the early days, before the conspiracy got a life of its own. Those first few minutes even, half hour or so when rumours and reports were flying all over the place.

So, what use is this speculation? Assuming it's correct, I reason that to decode Angleton's orchid one needs to look past the 'smokescreen' to see the assassins. In other words, the assassins are what the smokescreen isn't. The smoke screen is the CIA, the Mob, the KGB, Oswald, Castro, anti-Castro, the FBI, JBS, KKK, Oil Barons, Johnson, Republicans, Democrats etc etc. These have in common a label, a grouping.

Angleton alludes to a shifting, adapting quality when he describes different species of orchid. So also the 'smokescreen' shifts to accommodate various attacks by the fly, mosquito, wasp etc.

I wonder if the assassins are to be found not in any of these groups but rather in a grouping that may have members in these groups. It seems to me that individuals involved in the JBS, KKK, DCC are likely as these groupings allow members from many groups that might otherwise be secular.

JohnD

Edited July 31, 2005 by John Dolva

[Shanet Clark]

That account reads like Carlos Castaneda and Don Juan......

What a weirdo !!!

Nosenko was probably telling the truth, and either way,

he got a really raw deal, similar to the stuff going on at

Abu Graib and Guantanano today........

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Yes, and!

Those who have little or no knowledge or understanding of how covert operations and misdirected concepts are applied continue to sit around and follow David Lifton and the crew of the "Body Kidnappers" ; Clay Shaw and the trials and tribulations of Jim Garrison;, etc; etc; etc.

As with other aspects of this subject, that there are/were undoubtedly certain elements creating multitude of "Smoke" in relationship to who were behind this event, does not mean that this diversion is related to the WC activities.

Ever think that perhaps this is why no one has placed each of the pieces of this puzzle into it's proper alignment?

Glad to know that there are still those who enjoy the chasing of smoke.

Tom

"As long as you keep them chasing the smoke, they are not likely to find the fire".

Old covert ops axiom.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Tom, I would appreciate a comment on angletons 'orchids' from you, please.

from an old post of mine:

...reading about the history of the junkie virus got me thinking about Angletons mirrors and his orchid interests. The junkie virus was distributed in a pirated game level that quickly spread around the world before it was decoded. one of the problems was that the virus had been encrypted, then that encryption had been encrypted and then a third time.

angleton stopped talking about Nosenko when Oswald became the topic. He then firmly steered the conversation to orchids and kept it there during interviews at a number of locations.

:::

Epstein

"" Since Angleton's counterintelligence staff had the responsibility for evaluating information supplied by KGB defectors, I assumed that he would be in a position to clarify what Nosenko had been telling me about Oswald and the KGB. I had no idea then that Nosenko had been the subject of a bitter ten-year debate inside the CIA that had destroyed a half-dozen careers, and which helped precipitate the downfall of Angleton himself. Not knowing the mare's-nest of issues surrounding this case, I expected a simple answer when I asked him "Was there any problem with Nosenko's veracity?"

Angleton answered, with a thin smile, suggesting a deliberate understatement, "Truth is always complicated when its comes to defectors". He then added that the case was "still sensitive" and he could not discuss it. With that, he abruptly cut off the conversation about Nosenko, and moved on to a subject of which I had no understanding at all: Orchids. Ordering another bottle of vintage wine, he went into elaborate detail about the pollinating conditions for Dendrobian, Phalaenopsis, Cattyleas, Cymbidian and other tribes of orchids, especially their deceptive qualities. He explained it had not been the fittest but the most deceptive orchid that had survived. The perpetuation of most species of orchids depend on their ability to misrepresent themselves to insects. Having no food to offer the insects, they had to deceive them into landing on them and carrying their pollen to another orchid in the tribe. Orchids are too dispersed in nature to depend on the wind to carry their pollen.

To accomplish this deception, orchids use color, shape and odor to mimic something that attracts insects to their pods of pollen. Some orchids play on the sexual instincts of insects. The tricocerus orchid, for example, so perfectly mimics in three-dimensional the underside of a female fly, downs to the hairs and smell, that they trigger mating response from passing male flies. Seeing what he thinks is a female fly, the male fly swoops down on the orchid, and attempts to have sex with it-- a process called psuedo-copulation. In doing so, the motion causes the fly to hit the pollen pod, which attaches itself to his underside. The fly thus becomes an unwitting carrier. When the fly then passes another tricocerus orchid, and repeat the frustrating process, it pollinate that orchid.

It gradually became clear that he was not only talking about an insect being manipulated through deception but an intelligence service being similarly duped, seduced, provoked, blinded, lured down false trails and used by an enemy.

The last waitor was waiting for us to leave. It was almost 1 a.m. Angleton seemed drunk and I was disappointed. I had learned more than I ever wanted to know about botany but nothing about the subject at hand. As he got up to leave, I made a final try to get back to Nosenko. "But can Nosenko be believed about the assassination?" I asked.

He was silent for a long moment, obviously disappointed that I had not grasped the meaning of his orchid discourse. "I told you I could not discuss cases," he said. "But you might want to buy orchids for your greenhouse..."

"I don't have a greenhouse, but Nosenko..."

He cut me off. Why don't you come with me to Kensington Orchids next time I go."

The high humidity in Kensington Orchid house so fogged my glasses that I hardly see Angleton. He was examining a long, spiny orchid with a flash light. "See this oncidium orchid," he said, as I approached through the corridor of plants. "It has an almost exact replica of a bee's head on its petals." He meticulously traced the upside-down bee's head for me with his flashlight. "Here's the illusionary foe— the killer bee." Unable to distinguish the simulcrum from the real bee, the wasp is triggered to attack. When it plunges its stinger through the petal, the orchid's pollen pod adheres to it. The wasp then flies away and, if it sees another similar orchid, attacks again. But this time its stinger deposits the pollenate from the first orchid on the second. Angleton explains, " provocation is the means by which this species survives". Such deceptions work in nature, Angleton explains, because the deceived does not have the differentiate the real from the fake.

I asked if the CIA possesses that ability.

"It had counterintelligence," he said, speaking in the past tense.

"So did they know if Nosenko was real or fake."

Without answering, he proceeded on to a nearby odontoglossum orchid. He explained it blinded its carrier through deception. Its nectar odor lured moisquitos into its the coils of its fleshy tubes. When the moisquito pushes around a bend it runs into a spike of pollen pod, which jams into its eye. When it then back out of the tube, it is temporarily blinded. So it flies around until it smells a similar nectar and, again, following the trail of odor into a tube, it runs into another spike, which it willy-nilly pollinates with the pollen in its eye. "Did you come to buy orchids?" he asked.

"I came to Washingtonton for a second interview with Nosenko, tomorrow?" Angleton drove me back to the Madison hotel in his silver Mercedes. On the way back, he played a cassette of an Israel violenist he said he had had privately recorded, Evidently, Angleton's private world extentend to even his music. After several brandies in the Madison bar, he asked me what I planned to ask Nosenko.

"Any suggestions?" I replied.

He then dictated, with precision I had never heard before from anyone, thirteen questions. (see Missing Pieces) They contained names and aliases I had never heard before— Rumyanstev, General Rodin, xxxxov, Colonel Semonov and Corevan, for example, as well as KGB units like the 13th Department of the First Chief Directorate (which was rumored to handle assassinations abroad). I wote them down and asked if he could further elaborate.

"I can't do that. I would be revealing secrets. All you need to know-- and all I can tell you is that Nosenko never got his bona fides-- not while I was at the CIA." ""

::::

There are various interpretations of what Angleton was trying to get across.

Obviously he was a highly intelligent, well read person capable of subtle deceit.

But assuming perhaps in this instance he is telling perhaps not who pulled the trigger but where, in which greenhouse to look? Maybe just an other encryption?

Using the 'triple encryption' as analogy, at the core is the conspiracy proper. For the conspiracy (assassins) to survive undetected it assumes the guise of the illusionary foe, the orchid. The wasp, the fly, and the mosquito are the diverse conspiracy theorists and any legitimate law enforcement attempts to nail the assassin. :: " provocation is the means by which this species (orchid, (assassins)) survives". "Such deceptions work in nature, Angleton explains, because the deceived does not have the (ability to) differentiate the real from the fake".

These theorists and and law enforcement agencies are then manipulated to become the third, public layer. The conspiracy theory 'becomes' the conspiracy.

Because I think this is how it might have worked, I keep on trying to return to the early days, before the conspiracy got a life of its own. Those first few minutes even, half hour or so when rumours and reports were flying all over the place.

So, what use is this speculation? Assuming it's correct, I reason that to decode Angleton's orchid one needs to look past the 'smokescreen' to see the assassins. In other words, the assassins are what the smokescreen isn't. The smoke screen is the CIA, the Mob, the KGB, Oswald, Castro, anti-Castro, the FBI, JBS, KKK, Oil Barons, Johnson, Republicans, Democrats etc etc. These have in common a label, a grouping.

Angleton alludes to a shifting, adapting quality when he describes different species of orchid. So also the 'smokescreen' shifts to accommodate various attacks by the fly, mosquito, wasp etc.

I wonder if the assassins are to be found not in any of these groups but rather in a grouping that may have members in these groups. It seems to me that individuals involved in the JBS, KKK, DCC are likely as these groupings allow members from many groups that might otherwise be secular.

JohnD

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It would also appear that he was expressing how difficult it would be to ever place this event directly back into the lap of those who originated it.

Too many orchids and too much deception.

In that regards, LHO is somewhat like the wasp. Unless one knows their orchids that well, it would be difficult to recognize which orchid the wasp actually lands on, stings, and pollinates, and which one he merely landed on for some unknown reason.

With the direction in which you would appear to be headed, then I would assume that the Touro Infirmary death of William Burke, Director of Covert Operations, Central Intelligence Group, would have been of interest.

As well as the death of the leader of the Flying Tigers/AVG Claire Chennault.

Which of course connects us directly to none other than Mr. William Pawley, whose wife of course also graduated from Tulane (Newcomb College).

Ever wonder exactly how it was that so many persons around the peripheral edge of LHO had been to china?

And of course Pawley leads us directly to United Fruit.

Ever wonder exactly why I posted the little issue of the Guatemala episode in New Orleans attempting to raise 1 million dollars with the attorney who frequently represented United Fruit?

Also, what most are not aware of is the fact that south Louisiana provided many of the "Jedburg" team personnel for WWII.

They were sought out due to their french language capability.

Those who survived, returned home with training and capabilities which far exceeded what most were aware of.

I do seem to recall that one named "Stuckey" was killed during the war.

Wonder if he had any family close to New Orleans?

Tom

[John Dolva]

.............

I wonder if the assassins are to be found not in any of these groups but rather in a grouping that may have members in these groups. It seems to me that individuals involved in the JBS, KKK, DCC are likely as these groupings allow members from many groups that might otherwise be secular.

..............

I forgot to add : the 'enemy' of these 'groupings' at that time were:

the catholic

the communist

the jew

the anti-segregationist

Kennedy

Oswald

Ruby

Civil Rights

Edited August 1, 2005 by John Dolva

[Thomas H. Purvis]

.............

I wonder if the assassins are to be found not in any of these groups but rather in a grouping that may have members in these groups. It seems to me that individuals involved in the JBS, KKK, DCC are likely as these groupings allow members from many groups that might otherwise be secular.

..............

I forgot to add : the 'enemy' of these 'groupings' at that time were:

the catholic

the communist

the jew

the anti-segregationist

Kennedy

Oswald

Ruby

Civil Rights

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In Diving School, we were of course issued the "diving knife".

When a student would inevitably ask the purpose of the knife, he would be informed it was primarily issued for any shark attacks.

And, although those who jump from airplanes and such are not necessarily known for being that smart, this reply would obtain their attention as even they knew that a small knife up against a 14-16 foot shark was perhaps futile, at best.

This would be usually brought to the attention of the instructor.

At which time the instructor would clarify the answer.

The knife was not for attacking the shark! The knife was for stabbing your swim-buddy with.

The shark would thereafter go after him due to the blood, and you could thereafter get the hell out of there while the shark ate your buddy.

Tom

http://www.wtcno.org/programs/2005/cunningham2-24.htm

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Of course, your "swim buddy" must be quite close to you in order that you may get in a good stab so that the "sharks" will all chase and follow him.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CIAshaw.htm

Anyone who has dealt with "land sharks" as well as ocean sharks, knows full well that the land versions are by far more dangerous.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Mississippi Valley World Trade Council

_______________________________

Incorporated: 09/05/1956

Registered Agent: Clay Shaw

Vice President: William T. Walshe

Crusade to Free Cuba

__________________

William T. Walshe

http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_...ue/arrb_11.html

[Thomas H. Purvis]

REX Carnival 1935

Dukes: William T. Walshe

[Mark Stapleton]

.............

I wonder if the assassins are to be found not in any of these groups but rather in a grouping that may have members in these groups. It seems to me that individuals involved in the JBS, KKK, DCC are likely as these groupings allow members from many groups that might otherwise be secular.

..............

I forgot to add : the 'enemy' of these 'groupings' at that time were:

the catholic

the communist

the jew

the anti-segregationist

Kennedy

Oswald

Ruby

Civil Rights

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In Diving School, we were of course issued the "diving knife".

When a student would inevitably ask the purpose of the knife, he would be informed it was primarily issued for any shark attacks.

And, although those who jump from airplanes and such are not necessarily known for being that smart, this reply would obtain their attention as even they knew that a small knife up against a 14-16 foot shark was perhaps futile, at best.

This would be usually brought to the attention of the instructor.

At which time the instructor would clarify the answer.

The knife was not for attacking the shark! The knife was for stabbing your swim-buddy with.

The shark would thereafter go after him due to the blood, and you could thereafter get the hell out of there while the shark ate your buddy.

Tom

http://www.wtcno.org/programs/2005/cunningham2-24.htm

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tom,

Remind me not to go diving with you.

[Terry Mauro]

Yes, and!

Those who have little or no knowledge or understanding of how covert operations and misdirected concepts are applied continue to sit around and follow David Lifton and the crew of the "Body Kidnappers" ; Clay Shaw and the trials and tribulations of Jim Garrison;, etc; etc; etc.

As with other aspects of this subject, that there are/were undoubtedly certain elements creating multitude of "Smoke" in relationship to who were behind this event, does not mean that this diversion is related to the WC activities.

Ever think that perhaps this is why no one has placed each of the pieces of this puzzle into it's proper alignment?

Glad to know that there are still those who enjoy the chasing of smoke.

Tom

"As long as you keep them chasing the smoke, they are not likely to find the fire".

Old covert ops axiom.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Tom, I would appreciate a comment on angletons 'orchids' from you, please.

from an old post of mine:

...reading about the history of the junkie virus got me thinking about Angletons mirrors and his orchid interests. The junkie virus was distributed in a pirated game level that quickly spread around the world before it was decoded. one of the problems was that the virus had been encrypted, then that encryption had been encrypted and then a third time.

angleton stopped talking about Nosenko when Oswald became the topic. He then firmly steered the conversation to orchids and kept it there during interviews at a number of locations.

:::

Epstein

"" Since Angleton's counterintelligence staff had the responsibility for evaluating information supplied by KGB defectors, I assumed that he would be in a position to clarify what Nosenko had been telling me about Oswald and the KGB. I had no idea then that Nosenko had been the subject of a bitter ten-year debate inside the CIA that had destroyed a half-dozen careers, and which helped precipitate the downfall of Angleton himself. Not knowing the mare's-nest of issues surrounding this case, I expected a simple answer when I asked him "Was there any problem with Nosenko's veracity?"

Angleton answered, with a thin smile, suggesting a deliberate understatement, "Truth is always complicated when its comes to defectors". He then added that the case was "still sensitive" and he could not discuss it. With that, he abruptly cut off the conversation about Nosenko, and moved on to a subject of which I had no understanding at all: Orchids. Ordering another bottle of vintage wine, he went into elaborate detail about the pollinating conditions for Dendrobian, Phalaenopsis, Cattyleas, Cymbidian and other tribes of orchids, especially their deceptive qualities. He explained it had not been the fittest but the most deceptive orchid that had survived. The perpetuation of most species of orchids depend on their ability to misrepresent themselves to insects. Having no food to offer the insects, they had to deceive them into landing on them and carrying their pollen to another orchid in the tribe. Orchids are too dispersed in nature to depend on the wind to carry their pollen.

To accomplish this deception, orchids use color, shape and odor to mimic something that attracts insects to their pods of pollen. Some orchids play on the sexual instincts of insects. The tricocerus orchid, for example, so perfectly mimics in three-dimensional the underside of a female fly, downs to the hairs and smell, that they trigger mating response from passing male flies. Seeing what he thinks is a female fly, the male fly swoops down on the orchid, and attempts to have sex with it-- a process called psuedo-copulation. In doing so, the motion causes the fly to hit the pollen pod, which attaches itself to his underside. The fly thus becomes an unwitting carrier. When the fly then passes another tricocerus orchid, and repeat the frustrating process, it pollinate that orchid.

It gradually became clear that he was not only talking about an insect being manipulated through deception but an intelligence service being similarly duped, seduced, provoked, blinded, lured down false trails and used by an enemy.

The last waitor was waiting for us to leave. It was almost 1 a.m. Angleton seemed drunk and I was disappointed. I had learned more than I ever wanted to know about botany but nothing about the subject at hand. As he got up to leave, I made a final try to get back to Nosenko. "But can Nosenko be believed about the assassination?" I asked.

He was silent for a long moment, obviously disappointed that I had not grasped the meaning of his orchid discourse. "I told you I could not discuss cases," he said. "But you might want to buy orchids for your greenhouse..."

"I don't have a greenhouse, but Nosenko..."

He cut me off. Why don't you come with me to Kensington Orchids next time I go."

The high humidity in Kensington Orchid house so fogged my glasses that I hardly see Angleton. He was examining a long, spiny orchid with a flash light. "See this oncidium orchid," he said, as I approached through the corridor of plants. "It has an almost exact replica of a bee's head on its petals." He meticulously traced the upside-down bee's head for me with his flashlight. "Here's the illusionary foe— the killer bee." Unable to distinguish the simulcrum from the real bee, the wasp is triggered to attack. When it plunges its stinger through the petal, the orchid's pollen pod adheres to it. The wasp then flies away and, if it sees another similar orchid, attacks again. But this time its stinger deposits the pollenate from the first orchid on the second. Angleton explains, " provocation is the means by which this species survives". Such deceptions work in nature, Angleton explains, because the deceived does not have the differentiate the real from the fake.

I asked if the CIA possesses that ability.

"It had counterintelligence," he said, speaking in the past tense.

"So did they know if Nosenko was real or fake."

Without answering, he proceeded on to a nearby odontoglossum orchid. He explained it blinded its carrier through deception. Its nectar odor lured moisquitos into its the coils of its fleshy tubes. When the moisquito pushes around a bend it runs into a spike of pollen pod, which jams into its eye. When it then back out of the tube, it is temporarily blinded. So it flies around until it smells a similar nectar and, again, following the trail of odor into a tube, it runs into another spike, which it willy-nilly pollinates with the pollen in its eye. "Did you come to buy orchids?" he asked.

"I came to Washingtonton for a second interview with Nosenko, tomorrow?" Angleton drove me back to the Madison hotel in his silver Mercedes. On the way back, he played a cassette of an Israel violenist he said he had had privately recorded, Evidently, Angleton's private world extentend to even his music. After several brandies in the Madison bar, he asked me what I planned to ask Nosenko.

"Any suggestions?" I replied.

He then dictated, with precision I had never heard before from anyone, thirteen questions. (see Missing Pieces) They contained names and aliases I had never heard before— Rumyanstev, General Rodin, xxxxov, Colonel Semonov and Corevan, for example, as well as KGB units like the 13th Department of the First Chief Directorate (which was rumored to handle assassinations abroad). I wote them down and asked if he could further elaborate.

"I can't do that. I would be revealing secrets. All you need to know-- and all I can tell you is that Nosenko never got his bona fides-- not while I was at the CIA." ""

::::

There are various interpretations of what Angleton was trying to get across.

Obviously he was a highly intelligent, well read person capable of subtle deceit.

But assuming perhaps in this instance he is telling perhaps not who pulled the trigger but where, in which greenhouse to look? Maybe just an other encryption?

Using the 'triple encryption' as analogy, at the core is the conspiracy proper. For the conspiracy (assassins) to survive undetected it assumes the guise of the illusionary foe, the orchid. The wasp, the fly, and the mosquito are the diverse conspiracy theorists and any legitimate law enforcement attempts to nail the assassin. :: " provocation is the means by which this species (orchid, (assassins)) survives". "Such deceptions work in nature, Angleton explains, because the deceived does not have the (ability to) differentiate the real from the fake".

These theorists and and law enforcement agencies are then manipulated to become the third, public layer. The conspiracy theory 'becomes' the conspiracy.

Because I think this is how it might have worked, I keep on trying to return to the early days, before the conspiracy got a life of its own. Those first few minutes even, half hour or so when rumours and reports were flying all over the place.

So, what use is this speculation? Assuming it's correct, I reason that to decode Angleton's orchid one needs to look past the 'smokescreen' to see the assassins. In other words, the assassins are what the smokescreen isn't. The smoke screen is the CIA, the Mob, the KGB, Oswald, Castro, anti-Castro, the FBI, JBS, KKK, Oil Barons, Johnson, Republicans, Democrats etc etc. These have in common a label, a grouping.

Angleton alludes to a shifting, adapting quality when he describes different species of orchid. So also the 'smokescreen' shifts to accommodate various attacks by the fly, mosquito, wasp etc.

I wonder if the assassins are to be found not in any of these groups but rather in a grouping that may have members in these groups. It seems to me that individuals involved in the JBS, KKK, DCC are likely as these groupings allow members from many groups that might otherwise be secular.

JohnD

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It would also appear that he was expressing how difficult it would be to ever place this event directly back into the lap of those who originated it.

Too many orchids and too much deception.

In that regards, LHO is somewhat like the wasp. Unless one knows their orchids that well, it would be difficult to recognize which orchid the wasp actually lands on, stings, and pollinates, and which one he merely landed on for some unknown reason.

With the direction in which you would appear to be headed, then I would assume that the Touro Infirmary death of William Burke, Director of Covert Operations, Central Intelligence Group, would have been of interest.

As well as the death of the leader of the Flying Tigers/AVG Claire Chennault.

Which of course connects us directly to none other than Mr. William Pawley, whose wife of course also graduated from Tulane (Newcomb College).

Ever wonder exactly how it was that so many persons around the peripheral edge of LHO had been to china?

And of course Pawley leads us directly to United Fruit.

Ever wonder exactly why I posted the little issue of the Guatemala episode in New Orleans attempting to raise 1 million dollars with the attorney who frequently represented United Fruit?

Also, what most are not aware of is the fact that south Louisiana provided many of the "Jedburg" team personnel for WWII.

They were sought out due to their french language capability.

Those who survived, returned home with training and capabilities which far exceeded what most were aware of.

I do seem to recall that one named "Stuckey" was killed during the war.

Wonder if he had any family close to New Orleans?

Tom

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"I do seem to recall that one named "Stuckey" was killed during the war."

Just wondering if "Stuckey" was any relationship to the restaurant chain running from the Mason-Dixon line to Key West, via I-95? Kind of like those Burma Shave road-side ads, only culminating with "Eat At Stuckey's", two miles up the road.

Loved the anecdote about the orchids. Things and places are never really what they seem, and all the world's a stage, or better yet, a greenhouse.

Col. Prouty said they were "actors".

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Yes, and!

Those who have little or no knowledge or understanding of how covert operations and misdirected concepts are applied continue to sit around and follow David Lifton and the crew of the "Body Kidnappers" ; Clay Shaw and the trials and tribulations of Jim Garrison;, etc; etc; etc.

As with other aspects of this subject, that there are/were undoubtedly certain elements creating multitude of "Smoke" in relationship to who were behind this event, does not mean that this diversion is related to the WC activities.

Ever think that perhaps this is why no one has placed each of the pieces of this puzzle into it's proper alignment?

Glad to know that there are still those who enjoy the chasing of smoke.

Tom

"As long as you keep them chasing the smoke, they are not likely to find the fire".

Old covert ops axiom.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Tom, I would appreciate a comment on angletons 'orchids' from you, please.

from an old post of mine:

...reading about the history of the junkie virus got me thinking about Angletons mirrors and his orchid interests. The junkie virus was distributed in a pirated game level that quickly spread around the world before it was decoded. one of the problems was that the virus had been encrypted, then that encryption had been encrypted and then a third time.

angleton stopped talking about Nosenko when Oswald became the topic. He then firmly steered the conversation to orchids and kept it there during interviews at a number of locations.

:::

Epstein

"" Since Angleton's counterintelligence staff had the responsibility for evaluating information supplied by KGB defectors, I assumed that he would be in a position to clarify what Nosenko had been telling me about Oswald and the KGB. I had no idea then that Nosenko had been the subject of a bitter ten-year debate inside the CIA that had destroyed a half-dozen careers, and which helped precipitate the downfall of Angleton himself. Not knowing the mare's-nest of issues surrounding this case, I expected a simple answer when I asked him "Was there any problem with Nosenko's veracity?"

Angleton answered, with a thin smile, suggesting a deliberate understatement, "Truth is always complicated when its comes to defectors". He then added that the case was "still sensitive" and he could not discuss it. With that, he abruptly cut off the conversation about Nosenko, and moved on to a subject of which I had no understanding at all: Orchids. Ordering another bottle of vintage wine, he went into elaborate detail about the pollinating conditions for Dendrobian, Phalaenopsis, Cattyleas, Cymbidian and other tribes of orchids, especially their deceptive qualities. He explained it had not been the fittest but the most deceptive orchid that had survived. The perpetuation of most species of orchids depend on their ability to misrepresent themselves to insects. Having no food to offer the insects, they had to deceive them into landing on them and carrying their pollen to another orchid in the tribe. Orchids are too dispersed in nature to depend on the wind to carry their pollen.

To accomplish this deception, orchids use color, shape and odor to mimic something that attracts insects to their pods of pollen. Some orchids play on the sexual instincts of insects. The tricocerus orchid, for example, so perfectly mimics in three-dimensional the underside of a female fly, downs to the hairs and smell, that they trigger mating response from passing male flies. Seeing what he thinks is a female fly, the male fly swoops down on the orchid, and attempts to have sex with it-- a process called psuedo-copulation. In doing so, the motion causes the fly to hit the pollen pod, which attaches itself to his underside. The fly thus becomes an unwitting carrier. When the fly then passes another tricocerus orchid, and repeat the frustrating process, it pollinate that orchid.

It gradually became clear that he was not only talking about an insect being manipulated through deception but an intelligence service being similarly duped, seduced, provoked, blinded, lured down false trails and used by an enemy.

The last waitor was waiting for us to leave. It was almost 1 a.m. Angleton seemed drunk and I was disappointed. I had learned more than I ever wanted to know about botany but nothing about the subject at hand. As he got up to leave, I made a final try to get back to Nosenko. "But can Nosenko be believed about the assassination?" I asked.

He was silent for a long moment, obviously disappointed that I had not grasped the meaning of his orchid discourse. "I told you I could not discuss cases," he said. "But you might want to buy orchids for your greenhouse..."

"I don't have a greenhouse, but Nosenko..."

He cut me off. Why don't you come with me to Kensington Orchids next time I go."

The high humidity in Kensington Orchid house so fogged my glasses that I hardly see Angleton. He was examining a long, spiny orchid with a flash light. "See this oncidium orchid," he said, as I approached through the corridor of plants. "It has an almost exact replica of a bee's head on its petals." He meticulously traced the upside-down bee's head for me with his flashlight. "Here's the illusionary foe— the killer bee." Unable to distinguish the simulcrum from the real bee, the wasp is triggered to attack. When it plunges its stinger through the petal, the orchid's pollen pod adheres to it. The wasp then flies away and, if it sees another similar orchid, attacks again. But this time its stinger deposits the pollenate from the first orchid on the second. Angleton explains, " provocation is the means by which this species survives". Such deceptions work in nature, Angleton explains, because the deceived does not have the differentiate the real from the fake.

I asked if the CIA possesses that ability.

"It had counterintelligence," he said, speaking in the past tense.

"So did they know if Nosenko was real or fake."

Without answering, he proceeded on to a nearby odontoglossum orchid. He explained it blinded its carrier through deception. Its nectar odor lured moisquitos into its the coils of its fleshy tubes. When the moisquito pushes around a bend it runs into a spike of pollen pod, which jams into its eye. When it then back out of the tube, it is temporarily blinded. So it flies around until it smells a similar nectar and, again, following the trail of odor into a tube, it runs into another spike, which it willy-nilly pollinates with the pollen in its eye. "Did you come to buy orchids?" he asked.

"I came to Washingtonton for a second interview with Nosenko, tomorrow?" Angleton drove me back to the Madison hotel in his silver Mercedes. On the way back, he played a cassette of an Israel violenist he said he had had privately recorded, Evidently, Angleton's private world extentend to even his music. After several brandies in the Madison bar, he asked me what I planned to ask Nosenko.

"Any suggestions?" I replied.

He then dictated, with precision I had never heard before from anyone, thirteen questions. (see Missing Pieces) They contained names and aliases I had never heard before— Rumyanstev, General Rodin, xxxxov, Colonel Semonov and Corevan, for example, as well as KGB units like the 13th Department of the First Chief Directorate (which was rumored to handle assassinations abroad). I wote them down and asked if he could further elaborate.

"I can't do that. I would be revealing secrets. All you need to know-- and all I can tell you is that Nosenko never got his bona fides-- not while I was at the CIA." ""

::::

There are various interpretations of what Angleton was trying to get across.

Obviously he was a highly intelligent, well read person capable of subtle deceit.

But assuming perhaps in this instance he is telling perhaps not who pulled the trigger but where, in which greenhouse to look? Maybe just an other encryption?

Using the 'triple encryption' as analogy, at the core is the conspiracy proper. For the conspiracy (assassins) to survive undetected it assumes the guise of the illusionary foe, the orchid. The wasp, the fly, and the mosquito are the diverse conspiracy theorists and any legitimate law enforcement attempts to nail the assassin. :: " provocation is the means by which this species (orchid, (assassins)) survives". "Such deceptions work in nature, Angleton explains, because the deceived does not have the (ability to) differentiate the real from the fake".

These theorists and and law enforcement agencies are then manipulated to become the third, public layer. The conspiracy theory 'becomes' the conspiracy.

Because I think this is how it might have worked, I keep on trying to return to the early days, before the conspiracy got a life of its own. Those first few minutes even, half hour or so when rumours and reports were flying all over the place.

So, what use is this speculation? Assuming it's correct, I reason that to decode Angleton's orchid one needs to look past the 'smokescreen' to see the assassins. In other words, the assassins are what the smokescreen isn't. The smoke screen is the CIA, the Mob, the KGB, Oswald, Castro, anti-Castro, the FBI, JBS, KKK, Oil Barons, Johnson, Republicans, Democrats etc etc. These have in common a label, a grouping.

Angleton alludes to a shifting, adapting quality when he describes different species of orchid. So also the 'smokescreen' shifts to accommodate various attacks by the fly, mosquito, wasp etc.

I wonder if the assassins are to be found not in any of these groups but rather in a grouping that may have members in these groups. It seems to me that individuals involved in the JBS, KKK, DCC are likely as these groupings allow members from many groups that might otherwise be secular.

JohnD

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It would also appear that he was expressing how difficult it would be to ever place this event directly back into the lap of those who originated it.

Too many orchids and too much deception.

In that regards, LHO is somewhat like the wasp. Unless one knows their orchids that well, it would be difficult to recognize which orchid the wasp actually lands on, stings, and pollinates, and which one he merely landed on for some unknown reason.

With the direction in which you would appear to be headed, then I would assume that the Touro Infirmary death of William Burke, Director of Covert Operations, Central Intelligence Group, would have been of interest.

As well as the death of the leader of the Flying Tigers/AVG Claire Chennault.

Which of course connects us directly to none other than Mr. William Pawley, whose wife of course also graduated from Tulane (Newcomb College).

Ever wonder exactly how it was that so many persons around the peripheral edge of LHO had been to china?

And of course Pawley leads us directly to United Fruit.

Ever wonder exactly why I posted the little issue of the Guatemala episode in New Orleans attempting to raise 1 million dollars with the attorney who frequently represented United Fruit?

Also, what most are not aware of is the fact that south Louisiana provided many of the "Jedburg" team personnel for WWII.

They were sought out due to their french language capability.

Those who survived, returned home with training and capabilities which far exceeded what most were aware of.

I do seem to recall that one named "Stuckey" was killed during the war.

Wonder if he had any family close to New Orleans?

Tom

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"I do seem to recall that one named "Stuckey" was killed during the war."

Just wondering if "Stuckey" was any relationship to the restaurant chain running from the Mason-Dixon line to Key West, via I-95? Kind of like those Burma Shave road-side ads, only culminating with "Eat At Stuckey's", two miles up the road.

Loved the anecdote about the orchids. Things and places are never really what they seem, and all the world's a stage, or better yet, a greenhouse.

Col. Prouty said they were "actors".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Stuckey's was owned by Senator Stuckey. Same spelling, not the same family.