JFK, & Vested interest.

[George Bollschweiler]

Why do you imagine that nearly all who meet their end in this fashion are either Socialists, liberals, or reformers.

"Ibi fas ubi proxima merces." (Lucanus)

It seems that this war has been lost a long time ago

George

[Christopher T. George]

Question to Forum members.

Why do you imagine that nearly all who meet their end in this fashion are either Socialists, liberals, or reformers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Stephen

Your list of reforming figures can be extended to include Czar Alexander II, assassinated in Russia in 1881, for his land reforms and partially emancipation of the serfs, and U.S. President Abraham Lincoln assassinated in 1865, after he emancipated the slaves. And before that, the Huguenot French king Henry IV, who renounced Protestantism to ascend the throne, and was assassinated in 1610, twelve years after he passed the Edict of Nantes, ending the religious wars in France. This Edict granted to Huguenots the right to worship publically, to occupy public office, to assemble, to gain admission to schools and universities, and to administer their own towns.

All my best

Chris

Edited August 8, 2005 by Christopher T. George

[Mark Knight]

So...I guess history would prove Lincoln to be a liberal. Slaves were considered property of the slaveowner, and the emancipation of the slaves then amounts to an assertion of eminent domain, or the government's right to deprive a property owner of the ownership, use, and benefit of said property. So Lincoln, in effect, participated in the largest case of government taking of property from individuals without compensation in US history. The human rights arguments notwithstanding, when cast in this light--the light in which most Southerners most likely saw the emancipation of the slaves--Lincoln must have surely been seen as setting precedent for government seizure of property that was both unconstitutional and unconscionable. While Republicans everywhere might stand aghast at this assessment of one of icons of their party's early days, on one level it is a true assessment of what Lincoln meant to many.

And so the conservatives had to take action, in order to preserve what was left of their beloved country...which is the same mantra we hear yet today.

And, from some corners, what was quietly spoken in some corners on and after November 22, 1963.

[Dawn Meredith]

Question to Forum members.

Why do you imagine that nearly all who meet their end in this fashion are either Socialists, liberals, or reformers.

____________________

Because the real powers that be, who run this world, hate to see any reform. It gets in the way of their greed, their need for war, their need for a slave society, where we are presently headed.

I am half-way thru Clinton's auto bio: a lot of shockers. All the great things he accomplished, ignored by the media. I HIGHLY recommend this book.

Dawn

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Question to Forum members.

Why do you imagine that nearly all who meet their end in this fashion are either Socialists, liberals, or reformers.

____________________

Because the real powers that be, who run this world, hate to see any reform. It gets in the way of their greed, their need for war, their need for a slave society, where we are presently headed.

Dawn

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Spot on Dawn,Assassination appears to be a political tool of the Facist tendency.Off the top of my head I can only think of two prominant right wingers who have been murdered in this manner, Pym Fortune,and Ernst Rohm,and as Rohm was killed on Hitlers orders I dont think he counts.This is interesting because of what it tells us about the probable political stance of JFK's assassins.

[Tim Gratz]

Stephen perhaps you do not read all of my posts.

A KGB assassin killed two anti-Communist dissidents. One was named Stephen Bandera.

a. j. weberman states he believes the KGB probably killed Daj Hammerskjald (spelling?).

The KGB was probably behind the plot to kill the Pope in the 1980s.

And of course there were attempts to kill Reagan and Ford (although I suspect the attempted assassins in those cases were probably lone nuts).

[Tim Gratz]

And I do not want to be accused of "hijacking" this thread but I believe (as 'yall know) that Communists were behind the assassination of JFK. Castro had called JFK "the Batista of our times" only a few months before the assassination.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Stephen perhaps you do not read all of my posts.

Tim, I try, I try. But I only have one life to live

""A KGB assassin killed two anti-Communist dissidents. One was named Stephen Bandera."

Ah, but do you read all my post's. see my post on Trotsky's murder in this thread.

"a. j. weberman states he believes the KGB probably killed Daj Hammerskjald (spelling?)."

"The KGB was probably behind the plot to kill the Pope in the 1980s".

And your evidence for this statement is? The KGB were a deeply reactionary, semi facist organisation, working in a deeply reactionary,semi facist state.

"And of course there were attempts to kill Reagan and Ford (although I suspect the attempted assassins in those cases were probably lone nuts)."

I suspect, you are correct in that assumtion. and dont fear,I shant accuse you of hi-jacking,these are valid points you raise....Steve.

Edited August 9, 2005 by Stephen Turner

[Tim Gratz]

Stephen, I credit the late Pope for assisting in the defeat of Communism. He helped inspire the freedom fighters in Poland, as you know. The Soviets certainly had reason to want to remove his influence.

I shall attempt to post the links to the attempted assassination of the Pope tomorrow night.

I also think the Communists killed Paisley.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

An Italian judicial investigation into the assassination attempt, and an inquiry by the CIA were inconclusive. In his testimony Agca first said he had planned the shooting with accomplices, but then recanted. Later he helped to push the KGB theory, he accused three Bulgarian nationals of helping to plot the Pope's death, they had, he said, paid him $1.2M The Bulgarians were later acquitted, and Agca, once again recanted his story. If you've got more than this Tim I would love to hear it. But perhaps on a seperate thread....Steve.

[Tim Gratz]

I agree it probably deserves a thread of its own. It is funny how a thread starts on one topic and can end far, far afield!

[Guest Stephen Turner]

If,as history shows political assassinations are, in the main,a tool of Far right/Facist elements, how do we explain Oswald,Sirhan, and Bremmer, all, apparently from the left, all acting within a few years of each other, all targeting American politicians who's deaths benifited the right wing vested interests group.

As a certain English comedian is fond of saying "What are the chances of that?"

[John Dolva]

Various entries from Wikipedia on dubious deaths of social activists

Sven Olof Joachim Palme (January 30, 1927 - February 28, 1986) was a Swedish politician. He was the leader of the Social Democrat Party from 1969 to 1986 and was Prime Minister of Sweden with a Privy Council Government from October 1969 to October 1976 and with a Cabinet Government starting in October 1982. Palme was assassinated in 1986 and was succeeded by Ingvar Carlsson.

Palme was born in Östermalm, Stockholm, Sweden. He came from an upper-class background. However, his political orientation came to be influenced by Social Democratic ideas and ideals.

On a scholarship, he studied at Kenyon College, Ohio 1947-1948, graduating with a B.A. in less than a year. Inspired by the radical debate in the student community, he wrote a critical essay on Friedrich Hayek's The Road to Serfdom. After hitchhiking through the U.S., he returned to Stockholm to study law at Stockholm University. During his time at university, Palme became involved in student politics, working with the Swedish National Union of Students. In 1951, he became a member of the social democratic student association in Stockholm, although it seems he did not attend their political meetings at the time. The following year he was elected President of the Swedish National Union of Students, a position making it necessary to tone down party loyalties.

In 1953, Palme was recruited by social democratic Prime Minister Tage Erlander to work in his secretariat. From 1955 he was a board member of the Swedish Social Democratic Youth League. In 1958 he was elected Member of Parliament.

Olof Palme held several cabinet posts from 1963 and onwards. In 1967 he became Minister of Education, and the following year he was the target of fierce critisism from left-wing students protesting against the government's plans for university reform. When party leader Tage Erlander stepped down in 1969, Palme was unanimously elected as the new leader by the Social Democratic party congress and succeeded Erlander as Prime Minister.

Palme was a controversial political figure with strong views, criticising the United States for the Vietnam War, fighting nuclear weapons proliferation, and condemning the apartheid politics in South Africa. He received some criticism for being too idealistic about the PLO and Fidel Castro. Palme is the most internationally known Swedish politician of the 20th century (with the possible exclusion of "humanitarians" like Raoul Wallenberg and Dag Hammarskjöld).

Assassination

Olof Palme could often be seen without any bodyguard protection, and the night of his murder was one such occasion. Walking home from a movie theatre with his wife Lisbet on the central Stockholm street Sveavägen, close to midnight on February 28, 1986, the couple was attacked by a lone gunman firing two rounds with a magnum revolver. The first bullet killed Olof Palme, the second missed Lisbet Palme. The attacker escaped eastwards on the crossing Tunnelgatan and disappeared.

His assassination remains unsolved. Similar to that of John F. Kennedy, several conspiracy theories surround the murder. Christer Pettersson, a small-time criminal and alcoholic, was arrested for the murder in December 1988. Identified by Olof Palme's wife Lisbet as the killer, he was tried and convicted for the murder, but was later acquitted on appeal. After additional evidence against Pettersson surfaced in the late 1990s, Attorney General Klas Bergenstrand filed for a new court hearing, but in May 1998 the Swedish Supreme Court turned down the demand.

The case against Christer Pettersson (and also the rest of the investigation) has been criticised for several procedural errors. Critics say that the confrontation in which Lisbet Palme identified Christer Pettersson was grossly mishandled. According to the criticism, Lisbet Palme was affected by undue influence, resulting in a convinction that the man she saw was Christer Pettersson, which ruined the evidence value of the witness testimony of Lisbet Palme.

The murder weapon was never found. The police investigation remains open to this day.

The assassination of Olof Palme was the first murder of a Swedish politician since that of Axel von Fersen in 1810, and the first assassination of a Swedish head of government since that of King Gustav III of Sweden in 1792.

............................................

Raoul Wallenberg (born August 4, 1912, in Stockholm, Sweden – date of death uncertain) was a Swedish diplomat and a member of the influential Swedish Wallenberg family. He had earned his bachelor's degree in architecture from the University of Michigan in 1935. As a Legation Counsellor in Budapest, he used his diplomatic status to save many Hungarian Jews during the later stages of World War II.

Wallenberg was arrested by the Red Army on January 17, 1945, probably on suspicion of being a spy for the United States. What happened to him since is not known — the official Russian version is that he died in captivity on July 17, 1947, but a number of testimonies have placed him alive in Siberian or Russian prisons as late as the 1960s.

Raoul Wallenberg was made an Honorary Citizen of the United States in 1981. The bill was sponsored by Representative Tom Lantos, a Hungarian Jew who as a teenager sought refuge in one of Wallenberg's safe houses. He was later made an honorary citizen of Canada in 1985, and of Israel in 1986.

..................................................

Dag Hammarskjöld (July 29, 1905 – September 18, 1961) was a Swedish diplomat who served as Secretary-General of the United Nations from April 1953 until his death in September 1961.

In 1960 the newly independent Congo asked for UN aid in defusing the escalating civil strife. Hammarskjöld made four trips to Congo. In September 1960 the Soviet Union denounced his decision to send a UN force to keep the peace. They demanded his resignation and replacement of the office of secretary general with a three-man troika.

In September 1961 he found out about the fighting between non-combatant UN forces and Katanga troops of Moise Tshombe. He was en route to negotiate a cease-fire on the night of September 17-18 when his plane crashed near Ndola, Northern Rhodesia (now Zambia). He and fifteen others perished. There is still speculation as to the cause of the crash.

On July 29, 2005, exactly 100 years after Hammarskjöld's birth, the Norwegian Major General Bjørn Egge gave an interview to the newspaper Aftenposten on the events surrounding his death. According to Egge, who was the first UN-officer to see the body, Hammarskjöld had a hole in his forehead, and this hole was subsequently airbrushed from photos taken of the body. It appeared Hammarskjöld had been thrown from the plane, and grass and leaves in his hands could indicate that he survived the crash, and had tried to scramble away from the wreckage. Egge’s statement confirms earlier speculations.

Olof Palme, Lisbet Palme and Fidel Castro in Cuba 1975

[Dawn Meredith]

If,as history shows political assassinations are, in the main,a tool of Far right/Facist elements, how do we explain Oswald,Sirhan, and Bremmer, all, apparently from the left, all acting within a few years of each other, all targeting American politicians who's deaths benifited the right wing vested interests group.

As a certain English comedian is fond of saying "What are the chances of that?"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

_____________________________

The key here Stephen is "apparently" from the left. We know a lot about LHO, and his "leftist " ties are all bogus. He was mil intel and did what ever he was told to do. Members of this forum are well versed in this.

Sirhan was a MC. The autopsy clearly showed that no bullet of Sirhan's killed RFK.

Bremmer, again , good work has been done on this forum proving Nixon et al tried to link him to Teddy Kennedy, (the tapes, the Colson stuff...interesting man, Mr. Colson).

Yes, "who benefited?", Tim can argue "Castro" til the cows come home.

He's a minority of 1 here.

And Tim, I would include the KGB as a group hardly dedicated to reform. BUT they did not off JFK.

And I sincerely believe that you KNOW this. You're too intelligent and too well- studied in this case to truly believe the Government fall- back crap. (Castro/ or mafia).

You just post it, on every thread, to confuse this case. This is my opinion and always has been. I beleive that my opinion- "thoughts" are protected speech in this country. I am not accusing you of any CRIME. (So, I trust you will not throw around the words "litigation", and "interrogatories", as you did with Shanet and John).

Dawn

[Christopher T. George]

Hi all

The supposed murder of United Nations Secretary General Dag Hammarskjöld (1905–1961) while on a peace mission to the Congo is probably related to the murder of Patrice Lumumba (1925-1961), the first prime minister of the Republic of the Congo. Lumumba was killed on January 17, 1961 by CIA-backed counter-revolutionary forces while in the custody of the illegitimate separatist government in Katanga, and Hammarskjöld died eight months later on September 18, 1961. See The Assassination of Lumumba by Ludo De Witte. Following is a poem I wrote about Lumumba.

Patrice Lumumba

Patrice, pater patriae, por patriae mori, lacrimae rerum

In the Katanga savannah that terrible night,

they sacrificed you on an altar of pan-Africanism;

in your Congo of violets and violence, copper and blood.

You were the expendable African, who died for your people,

liquidated because faceless men decreed it be so,

Ike who wished you "would fall into a river of crocodiles"

and the British foreign secretary who "regretted the loss

of the techniques of old-fashioned diplomacy,"

your old masters, the Belgians, the CIA, the Russians,

the U.N. How many stood by and watched your

degradation? So you were delivered into the hands

of your enemies that night in Katanga, delivered for execution.

Later, the butler said the Katangan ministers lined up

to wash blood from their hands and more bottles

of whiskey were drunk. Your elimination was well done.

Patrice, pro patriae mori.

Christopher T. George

Edited August 9, 2005 by Christopher T. George