headshot head movements

[Bill Miller]

Am I the only person who sees a problem with

Jackie's hand in Zapruder and Altgens?

Jack

Jack - I think that if you had someone hold their hand in the same position and you looked at it from the same two angles in question - there would be very little change take place. I know this to be true because I just tested it myself. To the eye it would appear to be even less of a change because of the white gloves Jackie wore.

Bill

[John Dolva]

John Dolva Posted Yesterday, 02:24 PM

Where did the shot come from?

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...pe=post&id=5297

What's your opinion John?

I will not base my opinion solely on the Zapruder film. I have done my best at taking into account 1) witness statements, 2) physical evidence 3) photographic and video evidence.

Order of significance above.

My opinion is that Kennedy was shot at from at least 2 different positions. From the TSBD area or from behind Kennedy at the least, and probably from Kennedy's left front (the head shot). It is also a possibility that Kennedy was shot in the head twice, once from two different positions.

It's possible to interpret the movement in different ways.

If you look at only Jackies forearms and imagine her hands where they might be, you can see a movement that almost appears as if she is pushing Kennedy's TORSO almost directly towards Zapruder.

I don't think she pushes him, I think her hands are on his body. The right hand (her right) is about behind his left shoulder. The left hand is probably on his left forearm. What happens is that his body moves towards Zapruder and her arms extend.

On top of this the head tilts towards Zapruder to a greater degree so that the shadow it casts extends to cover his right shoulder and to half way up the cuff on his right forearm..

It also appears to me that during this tilt the head also twist anti clockwise to a degree.

The question after making any sort of determination is to try to visualise what 'impulse' or applied force would impart such a movement to a trunk resting on a seat and a head swiveling on a spine surrounded by a network of tendons and muscles.

It seems to me that the possible movements are fairly limited, but a proper interpretation combined with some knowledge of ballistics would make a good guess posssible.

Naturally, rather than making my mind up, any persons interpretations are valuable. I find looking intently at a continuously cycling film, letting the eyes rove over the entire scene and stepping back and refocusing etc, makes for some rather startling possibilities, one of which is headshot, Antti, as you describe. If it's not possible to have general concensus then that I suppose shows shortcomings that must be considered in evaluating any conclusions.

How a shot here from the rear can cause a body tilt towards Zapruder is hard for me to understand.

As far as orders of significance goes, these movements are of such a speed that eye witness statements would lessen in significance compared to photographs. Like, in this film a split second change is slowed down a lot.

......................................

Yep, that one slipped me by., Bill. Anyways, you know what I mean.

I wonder how much you felt you had to rotate one of the frames in order to line the limo up correctly to only look at the relative movements of objects (persons in this case). It'd be nice to check angles there as it impacts on what angle a persons head is in relation to that of a previous frame.

(At the moment kids and easter are here and computer time down for a few weeks, but will read and comment regularly. and make up for brief replies)

Edited April 8, 2006 by John Dolva

[Bill Miller]

"If you look at only Jackies forearms and imagine her hands where they might be, you can see a movement that almost appears as if she is pushing Kennedy's TORSO almost directly towards Zapruder.

I don't think she pushes him, I think her hands are on his body. The right hand (her right) is about behind his left shoulder. The left hand is probably on his left forearm. What happens is that his body moves towards Zapruder and her arms extend.

It also appears to me that during this tilt the head also twist anti clockwise to a degree.

It seems to me that the possible movements are fairly limited, but a proper interpretation combined with some knowledge of ballistics would make a good guess posssible.

......................................

Yep, that one slipped me by., Bill. Anyways, you know what I mean.

I wonder how much you felt you had to rotate one of the frames in order to line the limo up correctly to only look at the relative movements of objects (persons in this case). It'd be nice to check angles there as it impacts on what angle a persons head is in relation to that of a previous frame."

"If you look at only Jackies forearms and imagine her hands where they might be, you can see a movement that almost appears as if she is pushing Kennedy's TORSO almost directly towards Zapruder.

I don't think she pushes him, I think her hands are on his body. The right hand (her right) is about behind his left shoulder. The left hand is probably on his left forearm. What happens is that his body moves towards Zapruder and her arms extend.

It also appears to me that during this tilt the head also twist anti clockwise to a degree.

It seems to me that the possible movements are fairly limited, but a proper interpretation combined with some knowledge of ballistics would make a good guess posssible.

......................................

Yep, that one slipped me by., Bill. Anyways, you know what I mean.

I wonder how much you felt you had to rotate one of the frames in order to line the limo up correctly to only look at the relative movements of objects (persons in this case). It'd be nice to check angles there as it impacts on what angle a persons head is in relation to that of a previous frame."

Jackie's hands can be seen on JFK in Altgens photo and I have never seen any evidence that she ever placed them anywhere else until after the kill shot to the President. I feel that much of what you feel that you see is related to 'perspective'.

Bill

Edited April 8, 2006 by Bill Miller

[John Dolva]

I acknowledge what is said about Jackies right hand. I'll digest that and see how it fits with how I see the movements.

In order to properly see how the persaons move in relation to each other , it's important to have the back ground setting lined up properly. In this instance that is the limousine, not the road or the grass.. As the perspective shifts continually, it can't be perfect. One has to chooose within a few pixels.

What is relatively easy is to make both limos at same level to each other, and then choosing an item to line them up. Perhaps the door handle, or the back of the seat.

[Bill Miller]

What is relatively easy is to make both limos at same level to each other, and then choosing an item to line them up. Perhaps the door handle, or the back of the seat.

.... or perhaps the black reference line I placed on the clip in post 18.

Bill

[John Dolva]

Where did the shot come from?

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...pe=post&id=5297

Antti:"What's your opinion John?

I will not base my opinion solely on the Zapruder film. I have done my best at taking into account 1) witness statements, 2) physical evidence 3) photographic and video evidence.

Order of significance above.

My opinion is that Kennedy was shot at from at least 2 different positions. From the TSBD area or from behind Kennedy at the least, and probably from Kennedy's left front (the head shot). It is also a possibility that Kennedy was shot in the head twice, once from two different positions."

me;It's possible to interpret the movement in different ways.

If you look at only Jackies forearms and imagine her hands where they might be, you can see a movement that almost appears as if she is pushing Kennedy's TORSO almost directly towards Zapruder.

I don't think she pushes him, I think her hands are on his body. The right hand (her right) is about behind his left shoulder. The left hand is probably on his left forearm. What happens is that his body moves towards Zapruder and her arms extend.

On top of this the head tilts towards Zapruder to a greater degree so that the shadow it casts extends to cover his right shoulder and to half way up the cuff on his right forearm..

It also appears to me that during this tilt the head also twist anti clockwise to a degree.

The question after making any sort of determination is to try to visualise what 'impulse' or applied force would impart such a movement to a trunk resting on a seat and a head swiveling on a spine surrounded by a network of tendons and muscles.

It seems to me that the possible movements are fairly limited, but a proper interpretation combined with some knowledge of ballistics would make a good guess posssible.

Naturally, rather than making my mind up, any persons interpretations are valuable. I find looking intently at a continuously cycling film, letting the eyes rove over the entire scene and stepping back and refocusing etc, makes for some rather startling possibilities, one of which is headshot, Antti, as you describe. If it's not possible to have general concensus then that I suppose shows shortcomings that must be considered in evaluating any conclusions.

How a shot here from the rear can cause a body tilt towards Zapruder is hard for me to understand.

As far as orders of significance goes, these movements are of such a speed that eye witness statements would lessen in significance compared to photographs. Like, in this film a split second change is slowed down a lot.

......................................

Yep, that one slipped me by., Bill. Anyways, you know what I mean.

I wonder how much you felt you had to rotate one of the frames in order to line the limo up correctly to only look at the relative movements of objects (persons in this case). It'd be nice to check angles there as it impacts on what angle a persons head is in relation to that of a previous frame.

(At the moment kids and easter are here and computer time down for a few weeks, but will read and comment regularly. and make up for brief replies)

OK, How's this: Kennedy's arms are restrained as you say, Bill.

the extreme difference in Kennedys head orientation in the two frames. Or the furthermost position read from the motion blur of 313. compared to the stability of head in the previous frames.

Is such that at the moment I can only (until someone corrects my interpretation of course) think of one thing that seems doable.

the headshot comes from (forget about all the other evidence for the moment, please) almost directly left of kennedys head. and forward or up.

A tangential strike that meets a wall of bone rather than a even surface like a direct strike, so a lot of its energy is absorbed by hard bone which of course shatters heavilyn in a direction in line with this strike,

His right arms knuckles are roughly inline with his jaw.

This heavy strike from the left knocks his head to the right , where it encounters the knuckles hand arm wrist elbow etc fixed system and the rest of the head continues its rightwards snap but now pivoting as the jaws movement is now blocked.

Edited April 8, 2006 by John Dolva

[John Dolva]

'pivoting'

in this transition from 313 to 312 one can see the head 'unpivots' and the body/head starts the 'back and to the left' movement.

[Bill Miller]

'pivoting'

in this transition from 313 to 312 one can see the head 'unpivots' and the body/head starts the 'back and to the left' movement.

I think JFK's head appears to pivot early on much the same way that the crossbar on the limo appears to pivot. I believe this pivot gives a false impression that JFK is continually leaning towards Jackie, but note that the top of his head remains at the level of Jackie's eyebrows. While these frames do not represent the moment of the headshot - I believe the same principals applied all the way through the shooting.

Bill

Edited April 12, 2006 by Bill Miller

[John Dolva]

'pivoting'

in this transition from 313 to 312 one can see the head 'unpivots' and the body/head starts the 'back and to the left' movement.

I think JFK's head appears to pivot early on much the same way that the crossbar on the limo appears to pivot. I believe this pivot gives a false impression that JFK is continually leaning towards Jackie, but note that the top of his head remains at the level of Jackie's eyebrows. While these frames do not represent the moment of the headshot - I believe the same principals applied all the way through the shooting.

Bill

Bill, I agree, this is definitely a factor to consider throughout the movie. As well, as is pointed out by Craig, there are aspect shifts of the lens that present different views frame by frame.

However, here ( http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...pe=post&id=5334 ) we have a widening of the distance between the wound and the back of the head, and other indicators, if one lets ones eyes rove over the head outline, thet indicates a 'unpivoting' in a clockwise direction. The movement to expect as per the pivot you are talking about should be anti clockwise, which then indicates that the pivot here is actually MORE than one actually sees.

[Bill Miller]

However, here ( http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...pe=post&id=5334 ) we have a widening of the distance between the wound and the back of the head, and other indicators, if one lets ones eyes rove over the head outline, thet indicates a 'unpivoting' in a clockwise direction. The movement to expect as per the pivot you are talking about should be anti clockwise, which then indicates that the pivot here is actually MORE than one actually sees.

John, I wish I could view the clip, but it doesn't play for me.

Bill

[John Dolva]

Bill, it's a windows media file, should run in any windows media player compatible. The GNU open licence 'Media Player Classic' by Gabest works well too. So if you run Linux that should do it. The codecs would be standard to xp home. I've viewed it in xnview but it doesn't work in windvd etc. Full screen at continuous loop is best to view and get faniliar with which part ends up where in the transition.

I'll convert to avi and mpeg and post that as well.

[Bill Miller]

Bill, it's a windows media file, should run in any windows media player compatible. The GNU open licence 'Media Player Classic' by Gabest works well too. So if you run Linux that should do it. The codecs would be standard to xp home. I've viewed it in xnview but it doesn't work in windvd etc. Full screen at continuous loop is best to view and get faniliar with which part ends up where in the transition.

I'll convert to avi and mpeg and post that as well.

John, I see what you are talking about, but the clip may be misleading in the sense that it isn't sized equally from frame to frame. Note how far Jackie shifts on her left side. I will create a better clip that keeps Jackie in place and display it in a day or so once I am back in my office and hopefully we can have a more accurate look at what is going on.

Bill

[John Dolva]

Bill, I look forward to it. Plese note that the apparent shift of her left arm is a 'widening' of her arm. Caused by motion and or camera blur. What appears to be a shift happens actually in BOTH directions of limo travel. Look carefully and you can see this blur also in a 'widening' of the hat.

This film is a result of careful rotation and alignment, in order to as closely as I can, compensate for all such factors. So unless someone can show where and particularly why this alignment I have here is NOT accurate, or perhaps as accurate as one can expect, I'll continue to regard it as such.

Also it must be kept in mind that 'grossly' or largely, this is an indication of RELATIVE movements, and a lot of determination of an interpretation should consider such things as, what would it look like if whatever movement one focuses on had not happened. Taking into account of course such factors as can be understood to be camera related.

But, like I say, I look forward to see what (and why) your results will be.

[Bill Miller]

Bill, I look forward to it. Plese note that the apparent shift of her left arm is a 'widening' of her arm. Caused by motion and or camera blur. What appears to be a shift happens actually in BOTH directions of limo travel. Look carefully and you can see this blur also in a 'widening' of the hat.

This film is a result of careful rotation and alignment, in order to as closely as I can, compensate for all such factors. So unless someone can show where and particularly why this alignment I have here is NOT accurate, or perhaps as accurate as one can expect, I'll continue to regard it as such.

Also it must be kept in mind that 'grossly' or largely, this is an indication of RELATIVE movements, and a lot of determination of an interpretation should consider such things as, what would it look like if whatever movement one focuses on had not happened. Taking into account of course such factors as can be understood to be camera related.

But, like I say, I look forward to see what (and why) your results will be.

John, in the meantime ... have you checked your conclusion against the Muchmore or Nix films?

Bill

[John Dolva]

John, in the meantime ... have you checked your conclusion against the Muchmore or Nix films?

Bill

Bill, no I haven't. I am keeping that in mind as a 'next thing to do'. I see this process of determination as being something that will take time. Not only does the process of doing this publicly at the speed at which things actually develop as per discussion, create the knowledge and abiltiy to feel confident with the results, it will hopefully arrive at a conclusion that CAN be crossreferenced. This process then would be transferred to the other films. This will be an interesting phase. It may indicate that the conclusions (whatever they may be) are not doable, or it may show they are. (One way or the other the conclusions would reliably build on each other should each step be attentively hashed through). Personally, I fell this is an ok way to proceed, the results so far are, to my mind, startling. It's not what I expected. Particularly the 'head twist' and the 'body roll' towards and then away from Zapruder. As they (to my mind) indicate a possible left field shot, it's important to determine the things you are touching on here, such as proper alignment and rotation of that part of the limousine containing John and Jackie.

ps the avi and mpeg conversion arrives at files too large to post, I take it you found a way to view the clip so I'll leave it like that for now.