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headshot head movements


John Dolva
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A minor point, after the headshot cavitation Kennedy didn't right himself. A barely living bag of bones, tissues and fluids held up by such things as various tissues and a steel rod tightly wrapped with cloth brace obeys, sans voluntary muscle, according to various predictable forces.

John,

Blood spatter science states that the spatter is immediate. If a bullet has already entered JFK's head in Z312 as you suggest ... then where is the blood spatter should have been released when the bullet first brong through the skull? remember ... I said everything must add up and fall into place.

Bill

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A minor point, after the headshot cavitation Kennedy didn't right himself. A barely living bag of bones, tissues and fluids held up by such things as various tissues and a steel rod tightly wrapped with cloth brace obeys, sans voluntary muscle, according to various predictable forces.

John,

Blood spatter science states that the spatter is immediate. If a bullet has already entered JFK's head in Z312 as you suggest ... then where is the blood spatter should have been released when the bullet first brong through the skull? remember ... I said everything must add up and fall into place.

Bill

Bill, sufficient extraneous materiasl has crept into this thread to divert from the original intention which is to see what were the head movements at the time of the headshot.

Separating out only peripheral iussues diverts and is my own fault for introducing them. So I'm going to start a new thread which hopefully will answer 'how is the head orientated in 313.'

I note you state that 313 is 'too blurred'. I disagree.

You say the movements I suggest are too much to happen in the time frame. I disagree.

So it's up to me to show why I think I'm right.

In the process of doing so

I may find that my hypothesis is correct.

I may find that it is impossible to be certain.

I may find that I am wrong.

It doesn't matter. I want to know before I can comfortably go on to other things.

__________ meanwhile in this thread.

I don't get the point you make here in quoting one thing and dealing with another.

"1. there is reason to believe that in 312 the bullet is just about to exit the skull. Stll looking into it.

the movement or energy absorption is already happening. The cavitation that produces the bulk of the ejecta indicates that this is just about to start happening in 312.

However

2. either way we are talking 1/9 of a second headsnap 312-314, roughly 25 degrees right 30 degrees left.

The impact energy of a supersonic bullet is roughly equivalent to a slow (at human swung speed) sledgehammer."

"John,

Blood spatter science states that the spatter is immediate. If a bullet has already entered JFK's head in Z312 as you suggest ... then where is the blood spatter should have been released when the bullet first brong through the skull? remember ... I said everything must add up and fall into place.

Bill"

in 1/9 of a second the bullet will have travelled 80 odd meters. The skull fragmentation and distance of ejected bone, and the bullet fragmentation indicates most of its energy is absorbed. Sufficient to cause many inches of rapid movement of a head, particularly with, as in this case, a basically tangential strike edge on to what are sheets of skull layers. Much more likely to absorb energy and to transform that into movement.. When the cavitation happens the brain is essentially dead as far as any voluntary movement goes. Reactions are spasticity and energy transmission.

As that speculation is not relevant to the issue(312 to 313 movement), I see I need to leave out the more speculative things from this as there are important points that are not being adressed.

The initial spatter is fine, better described as mist. A fine red mist on a green background is washed out to a whitish greyish color. At 312 (bearing in mind the theory here) the left of midline strike is on the other side of the head.

After the penetration the skull is fractured and cavitation starts.

This cavitation is then the reason for the tearing open of the scalp and the dislodging and dispersal of bone fragments. One of these fragments spins off to some didtance in 313. This must therefore have happened prior to 313. Of course it must. When? I don't know, perhaps immediately after 312. It's a worthwhile research and this site indicates it may be knowable.

http://history.amedd.army.mil/booksdocs/ww.../chapter3.1.htm

Edited by John Dolva
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I note you state that 313 is 'too blurred'. I disagree.

You say the movements I suggest are too much to happen in the time frame. I disagree.

What I am saying is that a bullet smashing into a human skull will cause the skull to transfer the momentum of that bullet immediately. This is what I refer to as a primary reaction. This can occur in less than 1/18th of a second. However, it would continue on for no less than a few more frames and in no way could JFK withstand the impact of a bullet wrenching his head volently and then he right himself on a right to left axis within the next 1/18th of a second. That would be what I refer to as a secondary reaction.

The Zapruder film frames are increments in time and space. As with the strawberry example - if a bullet has entered JFK's head and is on its way to the back of the skull as captured on a single film frame, then the science of blood spatter says that if a bullet is inside JFK

s head at Z312, then blood spatter should also be present in the image immediately at the point of impact. Z312 shows no sign of backspatter being released.

Bill

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It would indeed continue for more than one frame and it does. However it gets complicated by a number of things.

A summary of what a film frame is is worthwhile.

Increments is good. Also somethigng that is sometimes ignored, perhaps because its so obvious, is that all photons that strike the surface of the film leaves some impression. As these photons obey basic laws of nature (even in Dealey plaza) the scene as it happened during the registry of 313 is represented by frame 313. There are no magic photons. Detail is another question. Photon vresus grain versus grain density versus reproduction technique versus pixel size, color correction, hue saturation correction, equalisation, any changes in dimension, format saved, rotation etc etc go towards widening the gap between what is seen today and the original jumble of objects that sent the photons on their way in the first place.

Increment: there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to think that 313 shows an extreme of movement. The head may very well be continuing its swing towards zapruder before striking the raised shoulder, muscle bone tissues kept upright by various restraints, far more inert than a dead head. Or it may have already done so and is captured in the movement back.

Most energy is usually absorbed by the bullet passing through the water which composes most of what the brain is. A tangential strike edge on to a wall of skull bone means more energy absorbed by solid body and causing the violent movement necessary

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Most energy is usually absorbed by the bullet passing through the water which composes most of what the brain is. A tangential strike edge on to a wall of skull bone means more energy absorbed by solid body and causing the violent movement necessary

John, I took the liberty to go back and run a comparison between Z311 and Z312 to see if there were any signs of a bullet having already struck the President's head at the time of Z312's exposure.

post-1084-1147162298_thumb.gif

My findings were that there was no signs that a bullet had struck the President by the time Z312 had been exposed. That there were no visible signs of forward spatter that would have been appearent upon the intital penetration of the President's skull. And that there were no signs of any violent moments or jolts to the President's head between these two frames and that the only visible changes I witnessed were attributed to the limo making its counter clockwise rotation between Z311 and Z312.

post-1084-1147162320_thumb.gif

Bill

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The motion sequence from an 10 ms impact simulation is shown in a QuickTime movie (1,7 Mb).

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/research/visible/vh...pics/impact.mov

accompanying text

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/research/visible/vh...bel/krabbel.htm

`

Unfortunately details of the setup are omitted. But what I get is that the time of energy absorption to start of acceleration is significant.

The movement direction I suggest is roughly towards zapruder so there would be a lapse until major changes in head profile occurs.

Beautifully centered aligned gif by the way, Keep that as a demonstration of the rotation (not just in the left right plane but also as the limo descends. This is perhaps best seen by a larger gif.

If you look at the periphery of the hair at the top you can see some suspicious localised fluffing, (remember witness statements about rippling hair.) and if you do a difference analysis between 311 and 312 you can see luminance changes that is an oval circle surrounding kennedy's head. There are other indications as well. However this is marginal stuff and it may very well be correct that the bullet has not struck. On the other hand , it may be 0.0000000001 mm away from the first hair in its way. Who knows. Can a backtrack using formulas etc from the site I posted before help provide an answer?

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If you look at the periphery of the hair at the top you can see some suspicious localised fluffing, (remember witness statements about rippling hair.) and if you do a difference analysis between 311 and 312 you can see luminance changes that is an oval circle surrounding kennedy's head.

Once again, had a bullet of entered the President's head causing the hair to stand up, then there would also have been an equally immediate release of bloody crainial fluid. I refer to the example once again. Before a bullet could even pass through this strawberry - the release of back spray was already being propelled into the air.

post-1084-1147182745_thumb.jpg

The problem with what you have suggested in that you have found a couple pieces of a puzzle that have a similar pattern that allows them to fit together on one side, but the remaining pieces of the puzzle cannot match up the rest of the way around them, thus the original two pieces do not go together. I only wish that piece of hair standing up in Z311 meant something because I had never seen where anyone ever noticed it before, but without the immediate release of back spatter, then it is nothing more than a tuff of hair that a wind gust moved and was in the process of coming back down in Z312 just prior to the bullet hitting the President in the head.

post-1084-1147183438_thumb.jpg

That would be the same wind gust that stopped the blood mist in midair and drifted it back over the President's head.

post-1084-1147183951_thumb.gif

There are other indications as well. However this is marginal stuff and it may very well be correct that the bullet has not struck. On the other hand , it may be 0.0000000001 mm away from the first hair in its way. Who knows. Can a backtrack using formulas etc from the site I posted before help provide an answer?

I agree and that is why I look for the others things that have to occur to support what your are saying may have happened, the problem has been for me is that I do not see them being there.

Bill

Edited by Bill Miller
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Bill, I'm not talking about hair settling from 311 but rising from 311. If you can't see it then that is a good sign that it is an extremely marginal issue. I'll wait to see if anyone spots it or spots what I mean and see what is said before going into it. I understand what you say about the backspatter, it'svalid. I'll address that shortly.

___________________

The blood has been travelling forward at about 10mph or whatever. It doesn't instantly lose this momentum just because it's been shifted outside the vessel it was in. It loses the momentum imto the surrounding air..

The speed of loss is determined not just by the gusts which may or may not have been at .. speed at this particular instant. Here we can see that this loss is less than the speed at which the dot on the ground is moving hence less than the speed of the limousine. The gusts on the day were something more than that.There is actually a brief lull at that moment for a few frames according tho the coat movement. Also so close tothe knoll and the trees there, gusting can be quite localised. However I get the point you make, and the wind surely did contribute to movements, particularly something like mist of blood. As (I understand) Sherry explains, dispersal and settling of heavier droplets is rapid leaving the harder to see mist. Which also settles (and dries) rapidly.

Technically here the blood is not drifting back. It's drifitng forward at a decreasing rate while Kennedy's head also slows its forward movement and then picks up speed to match the speed of the limousine.

________

often much is made of impossible movements. I understand you are also talking about the reversal of the suggested head movement Bill, and in "Decoding 313" I hope to reach a conclusion on what the head position was in 313 and then make a suggestion as to the movements that could account for this.

here's "the magic toe snap" (more commonly referred to as "a foot step") in two frames of mentesena. One of innumerable examples of a body part that is not hit by a supersonic bullet that nevertheless travels many inches in a split second.

Edited by John Dolva
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"Bill, I'm not talking about hair settling from 311 but rising from 311. If you can't see it then that is a good sign that it is an extremely marginal issue. I'll wait to see if anyone spots it or spots what I mean and see what is said before going into it. I understand what you say about the backspatter, it's valid. I'll address that shortly."

Hair rising or falling in Z311 is meaningless for you surely are not going to assert that a bullet had enetered JFK's skull as early as Z311. In fact, I can pick of that hair movement as early as Z308 and I am not sure but what it isn't the sunlit hair on Jackie's head that is the culprit.

post-1084-1147236465_thumb.gif

"here's "the magic toe snap" (more commonly referred to as "a foot step") in two frames of mentesena. One of innumerable examples of a body part that is not hit by a supersonic bullet that nevertheless travels many inches in a split second."

That would be a "voluntary action" ... a bullet slamming into ones head causes an "involuntary action" which I am saying that JFK could not have countered in the next 1/18th of a second.

I look forward to whatever else you come up with.

Bill

Edited by Bill Miller
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"Bill, I'm not talking about hair settling from 311 but rising from 311. If you can't see it then that is a good sign that it is an extremely marginal issue. I'll wait to see if anyone spots it or spots what I mean and see what is said before going into it. I understand what you say about the backspatter, it'svalid. I'll address that shortly."

Hair rising or falling in Z311 is meaningless for you surely are not going to assert that a bullet had enetered JFK's skull as early as Z311.

I look forward to whatever else you come up with.

Bill

How about this?

Bill Miller Yesterday, 03:15 PM Post #82

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If you look at the periphery of the hair at the top you can see some suspicious localised fluffing, (remember witness statements about rippling hair.) and if you do a difference analysis between 311 and 312 you can see luminance changes that is an oval circle surrounding kennedy's head.

Once again, had a bullet of entered the President's head causing the hair to stand up, then there would also have been an equally immediate release of bloody crainial fluid. I refer to the example once again. Before a bullet could even pass through this strawberry - the release of back spray was already being propelled into the air.

The problem with what you have suggested in that you have found a couple pieces of a puzzle that have a similar pattern that allows them to fit together on one side, but the remaining pieces of the puzzle cannot match up the rest of the way around them, thus the original two pieces do not go together. I only wish that piece of hair standing up in Z311 meant something because I had never seen where anyone ever noticed it before, but without the immediate release of back spatter, then it is nothing more than a tuff of hair that a wind gust moved and was in the process of coming back down in Z312 just prior to the bullet hitting the President in the head.

"I only wish that piece of hair standing up in Z311 meant something"

I never mentioned any such thing. Drop the attitude and lets just get on with it. Please.

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"I only wish that piece of hair standing up in Z311 meant something"

I never mentioned any such thing. Drop the attitude and lets just get on with it. Please.

Sorry, John ... it was I who hoped the tuff of hair meant something for it could have shown the beginning of the bone plate being broken, but my further investigation has told me that wasn't the case. Maybe I didn't make it clear enough. The part about the pieces of the puzzle stems from the relationship between Z312 and Z314 and that trying to draw a conclusion on merely Z312 and Z313 was a mistake due to the unbelieveable amount of blur in Z313.

Now you have mentioned "luminance changes that is an oval circle surrounding kennedy's head". I think what you are seeing is the degree of blurring that is occurring between frames that give the impression of edging movement around the border of JFK's outline. Another factor may be attributed to the term "reflective angle" which means as JFK's body passes by Zapruder - the sunspot on his head will take on various shaping changes with each frame. A while back there was a discussion going on over at Lancer pertaining to the classic gunman image seen in the Nix and Bell films. I was able to show that two sunspots on the south shelter wall gave off an illusion of movement just from the camera movement alone. So these are just a couple of more things to consider IMO.

Bill

Edited by Bill Miller
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no worries, I figured as much, it is the 'bordering on sarcasm', or that's how I read it, of the last sentence that I would reject.

I don't trust costellas frames for this sort of research, and as I only have the high res cropped you sent me of 312 to 317, I hesitate to post my findings, I wonder if you could email me 311 in the large cropped frame and if it differs from the ones you sent me before, could you send 311 and 312 in the same size., please? In the meanwhile, what I see is a luminance corona about a third of skull diameter again, which is larger than the usual corona you mention. Also looking elsewhere there is actually an oval of difference between 311 and 312 with its centre around kennedy's head this whole circle or oval has the above luminance change as a component but is best seen with a hue saturation increase.

EDIT:: PS> Thank's for the frames, Bill. I can see now what is so called 'cleraned up' and 'corrected' in the other frames is more likely a contour difference in the grass, or perhaps a glint from something shiny casting a corona. Interesting, but not what I thought (I think) :)

Edited by John Dolva
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I hope I explain this clearly enough for interested people to follow.

This is a perspective view of a grid (oblique) overlaying a composite of a few frames showing the orientation of the cross bar.

I f the limousine had been travelling straight left to right the cross bar would have 'turned' like the lines in the overlay.

Therefore it is possible to theorise about the movement of the limo. Bearing in mind that it also descends.

The beginning of the turn to the right is 314 it increases in 315 and is uniform for a few frames then direction changes again. The frames of change coincide with the blurriest two frames.

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.."it also descends."

As well as the rotation compnent of any movement from the travel from left to right, there is also a component from change in vertical.

here the frames are shifted down by 4 pixels compared to the preceding one, which seems to work well.

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This seems to have slowed down for now. I made a serious mistake in publicly admonishing Bill (and I suppose assuming I even have a right to) over what I realise now to be a misinterpretation on my part.

excuses? I have thenm but they are irrelevant because it is ultimately my responsibility for what I choose to post.

I apologise unreservedly to Bill. I believe he was simply being 'chatty'. And even if he wasn't, as this is an investigation which involves solely technical data interpretation, I don't (and should at all times) care whether I'm discussing it with a grumpy misogynist or prince charming. Fortunately for myself, my projected selfimage is sufficiently irrelevant to be able to, when I remember to do so, give my ego a swift kick in the butt before sitting down to the keyboard.

______________

getting back to topic.

It's possible theoretically to discover the solution to the problem by going out the backyard and looking under a rock and posing the question 'what color was the lining of the trunk of the limousine'. A serious study aimed at finding the truth leads to a set of inevitable answers and questions that will eventually lead to the solution. The first thing would be to drop the rock and look elsewhere.

In this waythis topic which hypothesises a shot that caused the head movements, has led to a great leap (for me) in understanding connected issues such as perspective etc so that a better interpretation of movements can eventually be made.

I've been reading the testimony and conclusions of the hsca and there are some remarkable omissions. Conclusions are drawn based on incomplete studies such as shooting a goat in the head with the neck firmly gripped in a vice like thing. The expert then states that the movements he has seen in no way support the idea of a shot from anywhere but the rear. He states that he has studied the issue clearly, but no, he can't answer anything about head movements because er..well... the head was always restrained. But because the body dropped any way , forward down or back in relation to direction of strike, the head was not an issue. My own limited research of head shots is that the head is a different thing altogether in weight and centre of gravity, density of bone etc.

He satetes that in the goat experiment the head did not move because it was restrained. A careful look at the first few frames which are immediately overshadowed by a spectacular body reaction, shows a defintite head snap before the body moves at all. This head snap is considerable but almost invisible because of the direction the camera was pointing.

Also some classic head shots like the saigon street some are no doubt familiar with, shows the beginning of the head snap with no visible mist, admittedly it is a revolver and in BW but it is clear.

Also a film of an execution shows the bullet strike the ground about a meter behind the victim before the main blood appears. Here again, a head snap away from the shooter,

The body movement is not as precise an indication of where the shot came from.

Edited by John Dolva
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