Oliver Stone's JFK

[Pat Speer]

The problem with the LBJ/Warren line that the WC was needed or else 40 mil might die is that so many misinterpret the line. Since there was NO WAY nukes could be launched without LBJ's approval, it's clear he was saying one of two things. 1) I, LBJ, am responsible for the murder of President Kennedy and will protect my ill-gotten office by all means possible, including starting WW3!!! or 2) I, LBJ, am so unsure of my situation, and so fearful that President Kennedy was killed by AN INTERNAL MILITARY COUP, that I believe the military might over-throw me if I attempt to investigate their complicity in President Kennedy's murder, and thereby start WW3!!... Either interpretation tells us that Democracy went awry.

There is no rational way to interpret the LBJ/Warren line other than one of these two ways. Your attempt to search for an "innocent" way out is at times admirable but in this instance pathetic. The oft-repeated interpretation that LBJ was concerned Eastland, Thurmond, et al would try and blame the Russians and "force" po' Lyndon into a nuclear war just doesn't wash in the real world. It's prime b.s. Johnson was the President, and knew better than anyone the power of the Presidency. No war could have happened without his say so, and he would only have said so if he thought the investigation was coming after him. Look what happened to Ferrie after Boggs and Clark warned Johnson Garrison considered him (Johnson) a suspect!

[Tim Gratz]

Pat, I always respect your opinions (and I always preface my responses that way!) but, one easy way to refute the lofic of your position is that, apparently, LBJ used the logic that a war might necessarily follow if a foreign conspiracy was proved to convince Earl Warren. True?

Your statement that only LBJ could trigger a war is certainly true. I think it was the logic that if a foreign assassination was proved, the weight of public opinion would be strong enough to force LBJ to take some action against the foreign nations involved (short of a nuclear launch, of course) that might have, inexorably, led to a nuclear exchange, even if our enemies fired the first nuclear missile.

It was, of course, an assassination that led to WWI.

Also is it not true that many theorists believe that Oswald was selected as a patsy in hopes of forcing an invasion of Cuba? And if we had invaded Cuba might that not have led, ultimately, to a nuclear exchange?

[Dawn Meredith]

And my point, whicch you do not seem to dispute, is that it was not only morally defensible but almost morally required for Warren to prevent an investigation that might have led to a nuclear war. It of course makes no difference whatsoever to my argument if your position is correct that LBJ knew it was not a foreign conspiracy but only used that as a ploy to con Earl Warren.

Warren does not get off with that nonsense in my book. I have always wondered if there was not some other reaseon the chief justice came out of that room in tears: Like some kind of blackmail. Just a thought.

Can you read? I do not argue here that it was IN FACT a foreign conspiracy. Merely that there was evidence sufficient to convince LBJ (if he was innocent) or Earl Warren that there might be.

Yes you do argue this constantly and consistently. LBJ "innocent"? Not likely, imo.

Let me attempt to restate my point. If by "the heavens falling" what is meant is a nuclear war that would have killed millions of innocent Americans and Russians, then the only morally defensible choice was to let justice fail to prevent that awful scenario. [

[color=#CCCCFF]Twisting what Garrison thought is another dishonest tactic you employ. He was likely referring to the discovery that our institutions, FBI< CIA etc were all corrupt. Garrison did NOT think there was a foreign conspiracy, hence no thought of nuclear war. That's you twisting YOUR theory.

/ Had those surveillance techniques been disrupted, our national security could indeed have been dangerously impacted. That fact in and of itself may have been sufficient to warrant only a limited investigation.

Hogwash. There was no national security interest "sufficient to warrant only a limited investigation". Only in your brainwashed skull. "National security" is what they tell us when they lie. That it's for some "noble good"

In this case it was for the conspirator's interest which did not coincide with the NATIONAL interest.

[color=#3333FF]My basic point is that Garrison's famous quotation (whatever its source) "Let justice be done though the heavens may fall" is, philosophically wrong. Even apart from the Kennedy case, one can easily suggest situations where it is better to let justice fail than to have the heavens fall. Heck, you are a criminal lawyer. You know that there are many situations where the preservation of a guilty defendant's constitutional rights is considered so important by our society that our courts exclude clear evidence of guilt if it was obtained through a violation of the defendant's constitutional rights (the so-called exclusionary rule). In such cases, our society has determined that in that and other similar cases it is better to let the guilty go free than to "let the heavens fall" (in my analogy, permitting the abridgement of constitutional rights). Is there not an entire panopoly of criminal justice policies that contemplate that it is often necessary in individual cases to let justice fail in an individual case to support an even more important societal consideration?The fact that I disagreed with Garrison's rhetoric in this case ought not be interpreted as a full-fledged attack on Garrison's methods or motives (which you clearly do). In fact, I betcha if pressed Garrison himself would have agreed with me that in certain situations society has justifiable policy considerations that are more important than "justice" in a particular case (where "justice" is narrowly defined as the conviction of the guilty; the sense in which Garrison was using the phrase vis a vis the Kennedy case).

[/color]

What tortured logic.

Dawn

[Pat Speer]

Tim, my post was deliberately heavy-handed, but I stand by the basic point. Lyndon was a xxxx...a notorious xxxx at that. Even historians who like him admit he was one of the biggest fattest liars in U.S. history. As a result we have to to look behind everything he says to see if there is any REAL reason to believe him. He wanted Warren on the Commission to appease the liberals and the rest of the world. He wanted Russell on the Commission to appease the Southerners and the right wing. He would tell ANY lie to get them on the Commission. Since there is NO congressional authority to command troops, it only makes sense that LBJ's assertion that 40 miillion could die is an acknowledgement that he considered himself powerless to prevent a nuclear exchange without Warren's help--this means LBJ either had no faith in his skills as President or had no faith in the military's following the chain of command, either of which were far more frightening than the possibility Santa Oswald had some helper elves. That LBJ would admit his powerlessness to Warren in order to control him was vintage Johnson--whine like a baby until you get your way. Under any other President such an admission might be taken as an admission of guilt. Johnson was such a manipulative little whiner, however, he very well could have just been doing what it would take to get Warren on the Commission. To think Johnson REALLY was scared of a nuclear exchange, however, is to be naive to the ways of Johnson, and the ways of politics. Remember this is the same man who bombed the crap out of North Vietnam--in China's sphere of influence. To think he wouldn't have run to the U.N. with any evidence Castro did it, and then push the OAS to back him in a retaliatory action, is, thoroughly, and hopelessly, naive

[Gerry Hemming]

Pat, I always respect your opinions (and I always preface my responses that way!) but, one easy way to refute the lofic of your position is that, apparently, LBJ used the logic that a war might necessarily follow if a foreign conspiracy was proved to convince Earl Warren. True?

Your statement that only LBJ could trigger a war is certainly true. I think it was the logic that if a foreign assassination was proved, the weight of public opinion would be strong enough to force LBJ to take some action against the foreign nations involved (short of a nuclear launch, of course) that might have, inexorably, led to a nuclear exchange, even if our enemies fired the first nuclear missile.

It was, of course, an assassination that led to WWI.

Also is it not true that many theorists believe that Oswald was selected as a patsy in hopes of forcing an invasion of Cuba? And if we had invaded Cuba might that not have led, ultimately, to a nuclear exchange?

-----------------------------------

Gratz, et al.

I do believe that you need to bleach the "Dr. Strangelove" scenario out of your respective minds !! That is where the "Brit" movie infers that president dipxxxx lost launch control to a renegade General played by ex-O.S.S./Marine Corps Officer (WWII) & actor Sterling Hayden; who launches B-52s under his control against the USSR !!

Ever since the early 1950s [per Harry Truman's best braintrust] there has been 2-man & 3-man rules as to launching strikes. Y'all need to rent "Crimson Tide" [Gene Hackman, et al.] the movie and witness that it is not at all difficult to bypass any launch protocols, especially where our "Boomers" [sSN Nuke Subs] are involved. In the missile silos, both launch officers have been weighed by their command chairs as they sat down upon starting their shifts, and the computers insure that not only must both launch keys be turned simultaneously, but both officers must be seated and harnessed. Some LOs were ordered to carry lead waist belt weights in order that the computer carried a distinct weight rather than their known normal body weight, so as to frustrate use of a doppleganger or "barbells??"

[For general reference purposes only, see: "Launch under Attack" - Scientific American (1984)]

There is a general igorance as to the function of the "Nuclear Suitcase", commonly referred to as "The Football". [i had a member inquire as to more on same, but AOL screwed me up and I lost a Gig of e-mails] The "Football" is a transmit ONLY cipher device, but can be queried by transponder from either the flying command post styled as "Looking Glass", or other relay vehicle. During the JFK era, "Looking Glass" was an RC-707, same fuselage as "Air Force One" [tail #25000] but cram packed with ELINT/ECM & communications relay equipment. Later, an AWACS type aircraft was used [one with the dorsal rotating radar antenna], and thus it was not only a signals relay vehicle, but had the ability to observe and track all aircraft [and vehicles] in the vicinity of either the president on the ground, or when airborne.

"Looking Glass" can transmit its discrete frequency messages via both "line-of-sight" (VHF/UHF) and low frequency (HF/SSB) to predetermined radio relay sites, which then pass same to the command authority.

Therefore, the president exercises NO direct control over any launch components, he just has the capability to use a communication link which in turned is relayed to SAC/NORAD/NCA.

The "Football" contains a transponder which alerts "Looking Glass" as to whether the cipher device is up and running, or has failed and gone off of the air. I was told that NSA refused to release the "Looking Glass" tapes generated on November 22nd, 1963. Some retired NSA CTs "speculated" that:

(1) There were numerous spurious radio transmissions recorded that day, and they were disguised as

air traffic control verbage; [we used similar background radio traffic in the JFK movie, and Dale Dye was the voice responding to my transmissions]

(2) The transponder inside the football sent a "red-alert" to Looking Glass, indication power supply or tranmitter failure moments before the motorcade entered Dealey Plaza; and,

(3) The term "Minesport" [which is similar sounding, but incorrect for that era] referred to a backup football which was ordered sent by the Looking Glass CT commander at approx. 1627 hours G.M.T.

Nevertheless, it would take, even today, serious collusion to replicate the events depicted in "Crimson Tide" and other movies. However, the Soviets before, and the Russians today, have serious deficiencies in their "Fail-Safe" protocols, despite what Tom Clancy has projected in "The Sum of All Fear" !!

Case in point, a cashiered Russian Colonel who currently lives in a rundown Moscow apartment, the very one who refused to launch during a false crisis during 1993.

So, to wind it up -- could a military clique, or a single subordinate group, have had the capability to unilaterally & spontaneously "launch" upon discovery of a foreign nexus to the JFK murder ?? MAYBE !!

Cheers,

Gerry

_________________________________

PS: In the movie "3 Days of the Condor", actor John Houseman [CIA/DDO] is heard to state to Cliff Robertson's character that: During WWII OSS service, he sailed aboard a vessel cruising the Adriatic with a "movie Star" -- that was a reference to Sterling Hayden's tale of covert ops service in his book "Wanderer".

------------------------------------------

[John Dolva]

Quote : "At the end he makes a personal statement that elaborates on Costners summing up speech sentence " ...a little further west'. What he says amounts to a call for revolution. The statement 'though the heavens might fall' is I believe from a longer writing from around the time of declaration of independence? It basically also says 'if the government is no good, get rid of it. by arms if necessary.'"

I found where I originally spotted the quote. It's from the October 12, 1962 issue of 'Time'. This article is about events that occurred at Oxford Mississippi, Late September and early October, where Governor Barnett called for an armed response to integration and Walker responded by calling for men to come from around the south to defend against Yankee influence.

__________________________________

"The constitution does not allow reasons of state to influence our judgement. God forbid it should! We must not regard political consequences, however formidable they might be; if rebellion was the certain consequence, we are bound to say - Justitia fiat, ruat coleum.

Let justice be done, though the heavens fall."

-Lord Mansfield, Chief justice of England, 1768.

"Beneath the rich golden toned sky that October brings to the Deep South,...

Edited October 17, 2005 by John Dolva

[John Dolva]

"The constitution does not allow reasons of state to influence our judgement. God forbid it should! We must not regard political consequences, however formidable they might be; if rebellion was the certain consequence, we are bound to say - Justitia fiat, ruat coleum.

Let justice be done, though the heavens fall"

It seems to me that this statement could be interpreted in a number of ways. It's reasonable for Garrison to be familiar with it for a couple of reasons. Firstly from his profession in Law. from this he would have a deep understanding of the full quote. thus when paraphrasing it he means the whole. ie. justice irrespective of any consequences, even the fall of government. Secondly, he probably read 'Time' and the use of it in an article on the Oxford insurrection by Barnett and Walker would not have escaped anyone keeping up with current events.

Walker made a call for men. Louisiana (NO) responded with a promise of 10000. This seldom noted event (oxford insurrection) was so significant that the government sought to bury it by refusing to consider medals for those involved in putting down the rebellion in order to not draw attention to it. The use of the 'heavens fall' quote could be seen as a support by 'Time' for the rebellion. Justice to these right wingers was the defeat of integration. legal means had been exhausted, arms was next on the agenda.

By Garrison using the quote in New Orleans, I wonder if he was turning the tables and throwing it back in the face of these rightwingers.

[Lee Forman]

-----------------------------------

Gratz, et al.

I do believe that you need to bleach the "Dr. Strangelove" scenario out of your respective minds !! That is where the "Brit" movie infers that president dipxxxx lost launch control to a renegade General played by ex-O.S.S./Marine Corps Officer (WWII) & actor Sterling Hayden; who launches B-52s under his control against the USSR !!

Ever since the early 1950s [per Harry Truman's best braintrust] there has been 2-man & 3-man rules as to launching strikes. Y'all need to rent "Crimson Tide" [Gene Hackman, et al.] the movie and witness that it is not at all difficult to bypass any launch protocols, especially where our "Boomers" [sSN Nuke Subs] are involved. In the missile silos, both launch officers have been weighed by their command chairs as they sat down upon starting their shifts, and the computers insure that not only must both launch keys be turned simultaneously, but both officers must be seated and harnessed. Some LOs were ordered to carry lead waist belt weights in order that the computer carried a distinct weight rather than their known normal body weight, so as to frustrate use of a doppleganger or "barbells??"

[For general reference purposes only, see: "Launch under Attack" - Scientific American (1984)]

There is a general igorance as to the function of the "Nuclear Suitcase", commonly referred to as "The Football". [i had a member inquire as to more on same, but AOL screwed me up and I lost a Gig of e-mails] The "Football" is a transmit ONLY cipher device, but can be queried by transponder from either the flying command post styled as "Looking Glass", or other relay vehicle. During the JFK era, "Looking Glass" was an RC-707, same fuselage as "Air Force One" [tail #25000] but cram packed with ELINT/ECM & communications relay equipment. Later, an AWACS type aircraft was used [one with the dorsal rotating radar antenna], and thus it was not only a signals relay vehicle, but had the ability to observe and track all aircraft [and vehicles] in the vicinity of either the president on the ground, or when airborne.

"Looking Glass" can transmit its discrete frequency messages via both "line-of-sight" (VHF/UHF) and low frequency (HF/SSB) to predetermined radio relay sites, which then pass same to the command authority.

Therefore, the president exercises NO direct control over any launch components, he just has the capability to use a communication link which in turned is relayed to SAC/NORAD/NCA.

The "Football" contains a transponder which alerts "Looking Glass" as to whether the cipher device is up and running, or has failed and gone off of the air. I was told that NSA refused to release the "Looking Glass" tapes generated on November 22nd, 1963. Some retired NSA CTs "speculated" that:

(1) There were numerous spurious radio transmissions recorded that day, and they were disguised as

air traffic control verbage; [we used similar background radio traffic in the JFK movie, and Dale Dye was the voice responding to my transmissions]

(2) The transponder inside the football sent a "red-alert" to Looking Glass, indication power supply or tranmitter failure moments before the motorcade entered Dealey Plaza; and,

(3) The term "Minesport" [which is similar sounding, but incorrect for that era] referred to a backup football which was ordered sent by the Looking Glass CT commander at approx. 1627 hours G.M.T.

Nevertheless, it would take, even today, serious collusion to replicate the events depicted in "Crimson Tide" and other movies. However, the Soviets before, and the Russians today, have serious deficiencies in their "Fail-Safe" protocols, despite what Tom Clancy has projected in "The Sum of All Fear" !!

Case in point, a cashiered Russian Colonel who currently lives in a rundown Moscow apartment, the very one who refused to launch during a false crisis during 1993.

So, to wind it up -- could a military clique, or a single subordinate group, have had the capability to unilaterally & spontaneously "launch" upon discovery of a foreign nexus to the JFK murder ?? MAYBE !!

Cheers,

Gerry

_________________________________

PS: In the movie "3 Days of the Condor", actor John Houseman [CIA/DDO] is heard to state to Cliff Robertson's character that: During WWII OSS service, he sailed aboard a vessel cruising the Adriatic with a "movie Star" -- that was a reference to Sterling Hayden's tale of covert ops service in his book "Wanderer".

------------------------------------------

Mr. Hemming.

An amazing post. I watched that sequence in JFK again this past weekend - as well as 3 Days of the Condor in it's entirety. Facinating stuff.

I'm assuming that the jamming in Dealey Plaza would have been done via mobile, handheld devices, as opposed to some form of rooftop mounted apparatus. Would that have also impacted the DPD radio communications, as well as the SS, would you know?

Here's a photo of the interior of Looking Glass I found on the internet.

- lee

[Lynne Foster]

Despite the fact that Jim Garrison was a total fraud, Oliver Stone needed him because he had hijacked all the best conclusions of genuine critics like Weisberg and Epstein and provided Stone the opportunity to focus without spending a lifetime, trying to uncover the truth.

What I find fascinating about Oliver Stone's movie, if memory serves me correct, is that he discerned the actual motivation(s) that claimed Kennedy's life, despite the fact that Garrison was more interested in misleading rather than informing the public.

In the final analysis, disinformation agents like John McAdams, Gerald Posner and Jim Garrison have failed to cover up the truth about the Kennedy assassination, because every fraud has generated a counter-response.

Jim Garrison was countered by those who recall the historical record of critics like Epstein, Gerald Posner was countered by Harold Weisberg who wrote Case Open and John McAdams is countered by every independent researcher who challenges the propaganda he promotes.

With every discussion, I think we inch closer and closer to the truth, as long as the people participating are genuinely concerned about discovering it. Unfortunately, I think that Posner's apologists, the disinformation that McAdams promotes and Garrison's apologists make the road unecessarily bumpy, not because they are not intelligent, but because they seek to control rather than to learn and to educate the public.

Edited November 15, 2005 by Lynne Foster

[Lee Forman]

When the Warren Report went over like a lead balloon, the government knew it would only be a matter of time before stuff came out. So they created the JFK activists and groups to play upon the people's outrage. They're ALL C.I.A. agents.

From an anonymous source...

Watched Stone's film again - specifically the operation piece, which was for me the truly interesting part. I saw that there was the use of a dark skinned cuban in the DalTex broom closet - and I noted a few other details - like the 6th floor team splitting up, etc. The use of a what seemed to be a Signal Corps Field Telephone to place to bogus call to Looking Glass, etc.

I am curious to know if there is any genuine footage used in the film, that most researchers don't have access to - as per a sale on eBay I learned that a 16mm Bolex camera was used to create the visual effect for some of the recreated scenes - however, there were a few scenes [not Nix, Muchmore, 'Zapruder,' etc.] that I was unsure of - maybe this isn't the first time this has come up. There is a view of the West side of the TSBD, for example. A view of a man standing by the Telephone Switch Box. Etc.

Another item I am curious about is why Stone didn't incorporate more of the cameras that clearly were present in DP - beyond simply Zapruder, Babushka, etc. The 'other' cameras. Also, why he didn't seek to illustrate the operatives and the use of frequency jamming gear.

Was his representation of the bogus SS man behind the fence supposed to resemble someone?

- lee

[Gerry Hemming]

When the Warren Report went over like a lead balloon, the government knew it would only be a matter of time before stuff came out. So they created the JFK activists and groups to play upon the people's outrage. They're ALL C.I.A. agents.

From an anonymous source...

Watched Stone's film again - specifically the operation piece, which was for me the truly interesting part. I saw that there was the use of a dark skinned cuban in the DalTex broom closet - and I noted a few other details - like the 6th floor team splitting up, etc. The use of a what seemed to be a Signal Corps Field Telephone to place to bogus call to Looking Glass, etc.

I am curious to know if there is any genuine footage used in the film, that most researchers don't have access to - as per a sale on eBay I learned that a 16mm Bolex camera was used to create the visual effect for some of the recreated scenes - however, there were a few scenes [not Nix, Muchmore, 'Zapruder,' etc.] that I was unsure of - maybe this isn't the first time this has come up. There is a view of the West side of the TSBD, for example. A view of a man standing by the Telephone Switch Box. Etc.

Another item I am curious about is why Stone didn't incorporate more of the cameras that clearly were present in DP - beyond simply Zapruder, Babushka, etc. The 'other' cameras. Also, why he didn't seek to illustrate the operatives and the use of frequency jamming gear.

Was his representation of the bogus SS man behind the fence supposed to resemble someone?

- lee

__________________________

Lee:

I too watched just a few of the "JFK" scenes last week. The full movie is a bit tiresome. My 6th floor window & floor shots has me using a Motorola MT-200 "Lunchbox" radio transceiver with 2 channel capability. [i lost the "Director's Edition " that Oliver sent to me a few years back.]

[semi-duplex - transmits on one crystal & recieves on a different frequency. Full duplex is like a telephone, you can simultanously talk back and forth -- and interrupt the other party. Kinda like I do, when I shout at Gratz on the telephone !! Simplex means both parties are on the same frequency -- and this permits eavesdroppers to hear the "to & fro" conversation, where with semi-duplex, even an NSA scanner is going to only get one side of the chatter !!]

This Motorola model is the very same type used by Gene Hackman's guys in "The French Connection", and moreover: the very same kind that railway users, such as "Bowers-in-the-Tower" used as back-up, or when he was "walking-the-yard"!!

My Parabellum Corp. purchased 100 of these same radios from Sam MacIntosh of Microwave Inc. -- sited just across from Miami Int'l Airport [1971] These were FBI/ATF/Customs radios -- surplused out to public bid, and Sam bought them all. The dumb-ass feds left their crystals in all of the sets, so we spent hours listening to their chatter ["simplex"] with our extra radios !!

I vouched for Stone, so Sam sent some of those same radios to Dallas for "JFK". "Bean-Counter" Clayton Townsend [see the film credits at the opening] later failed to pay Sam, so I paid the freight instead of "Camelot Productions" !!

The window shot [from the outside & depicting "God" - the "final controller"] was done with a large crane, with saddled-in camera crew. This was one of the few times that Bobby Richardson didn't man the camera, as he dislikes heights !! Just as the crane lowered the crew back down to terra firma, the asst. cinematographer was heard to say: "...That was the meanest looking dude I have ever filmed..!!" Bobby asked: "...Who are you referring to [with a knowing smirk] the guy in the window talking on the radio, Bobby...was there anybody else up there in that damn window...??" !!"

I wrote the dialogue for the scene, and Dale Dye is the "radio" guy responding initially to my commands.

Was I surprised the other day. I had never noticed that Stanley White [w/ the black kid] was indeed shooting through an improvised "silencer/chicken-box"; surprised that Oliver had followed my insistence on either a Sionics or Maxim type silencer, or the "chicken-box]

I asked Oliver to provide all of the camera-toting "extras" viewing the motorcade be supplied with workable cameras, and loaded with new film -- so that we might review same later, and maybe incorporate the footage into the movie. He did it.

I also asked Oliver: That since the exterior shots of Stanley and the black kid would be filmed at a time when the dozen or so motorcade cycles weren't to be filmed -- could we please have both a scoped rifle & a "iron-sights" rifle [mounted with cameras] used during the next motorcade cycle. I told him that it would be quite interesting to see [as I suspected] that any 2nd floor DalTex window shooter would have had NO SHOT at JFK after the turn in front of the TSBD.

When he inquired as to my theory, I responded that: With the "J/Canoe" now going downhill, the Secret Service "outriders" would have totally blocked any rear-view of JFK !!

He responded: "..Well...I don't know if Garrison suspected this..??!! I interrupted stating that: IT is for us Oliver, IT is for us....don't use it in the movie if you talk to Garrison tomorrow -- and he gives you a blank stare....leave it out...but IT is for us...!!" He did it, but left it out of the movie. I was correct, the window shooters were completely blocked by the SS "Outriders" 100% !! Somebody tell "THAT" to the fools in Dallas next week. Give'm a cardiac, won't you ??!! But don't tell a certain Lady, cause she opted to ignore THAT when I began assisting her over 5 years ago !!

Chairs,

GPH

_________________________

[Lee Forman]

When the Warren Report went over like a lead balloon, the government knew it would only be a matter of time before stuff came out. So they created the JFK activists and groups to play upon the people's outrage. They're ALL C.I.A. agents.

From an anonymous source...

Watched Stone's film again - specifically the operation piece, which was for me the truly interesting part. I saw that there was the use of a dark skinned cuban in the DalTex broom closet - and I noted a few other details - like the 6th floor team splitting up, etc. The use of a what seemed to be a Signal Corps Field Telephone to place to bogus call to Looking Glass, etc.

I am curious to know if there is any genuine footage used in the film, that most researchers don't have access to - as per a sale on eBay I learned that a 16mm Bolex camera was used to create the visual effect for some of the recreated scenes - however, there were a few scenes [not Nix, Muchmore, 'Zapruder,' etc.] that I was unsure of - maybe this isn't the first time this has come up. There is a view of the West side of the TSBD, for example. A view of a man standing by the Telephone Switch Box. Etc.

Another item I am curious about is why Stone didn't incorporate more of the cameras that clearly were present in DP - beyond simply Zapruder, Babushka, etc. The 'other' cameras. Also, why he didn't seek to illustrate the operatives and the use of frequency jamming gear.

Was his representation of the bogus SS man behind the fence supposed to resemble someone?

- lee

__________________________

Lee:

I too watched just a few of the "JFK" scenes last week. The full movie is a bit tiresome. My 6th floor window & floor shots has me using a Motorola MT-200 "Lunchbox" radio transceiver with 2 channel capability. [i lost the "Director's Edition " that Oliver sent to me a few years back.]

[semi-duplex - transmits on one crystal & recieves on a different frequency. Full duplex is like a telephone, you can simultanously talk back and forth -- and interrupt the other party. Kinda like I do, when I shout at Gratz on the telephone !! Simplex means both parties are on the same frequency -- and this permits eavesdroppers to hear the "to & fro" conversation, where with semi-duplex, even an NSA scanner is going to only get one side of the chatter !!]

This Motorola model is the very same type used by Gene Hackman's guys in "The French Connection", and moreover: the very same kind that railway users, such as "Bowers-in-the-Tower" used as back-up, or when he was "walking-the-yard"!!

My Parabellum Corp. purchased 100 of these same radios from Sam MacIntosh of Microwave Inc. -- sited just across from Miami Int'l Airport [1971] These were FBI/ATF/Customs radios -- surplused out to public bid, and Sam bought them all. The dumb-ass feds left their crystals in all of the sets, so we spent hours listening to their chatter ["simplex"] with our extra radios !!

I vouched for Stone, so Sam sent some of those same radios to Dallas for "JFK". "Bean-Counter" Clayton Townsend [see the film credits at the opening] later failed to pay Sam, so I paid the freight instead of "Camelot Productions" !!

The window shot [from the outside & depicting "God" - the "final controller"] was done with a large crane, with saddled-in camera crew. This was one of the few times that Bobby Richardson didn't man the camera, as he dislikes heights !! Just as the crane lowered the crew back down to terra firma, the asst. cinematographer was heard to say: "...That was the meanest looking dude I have ever filmed..!!" Bobby asked: "...Who are you referring to [with a knowing smirk] the guy in the window talking on the radio, Bobby...was there anybody else up there in that damn window...??" !!"

I wrote the dialogue for the scene, and Dale Dye is the "radio" guy responding initially to my commands.

Was I surprised the other day. I had never noticed that Stanley White [w/ the black kid] was indeed shooting through an improvised "silencer/chicken-box"; surprised that Oliver had followed my insistence on either a Sionics or Maxim type silencer, or the "chicken-box]

I asked Oliver to provide all of the camera-toting "extras" viewing the motorcade be supplied with workable cameras, and loaded with new film -- so that we might review same later, and maybe incorporate the footage into the movie. He did it.

I also asked Oliver: That since the exterior shots of Stanley and the black kid would be filmed at a time when the dozen or so motorcade cycles weren't to be filmed -- could we please have both a scoped rifle & a "iron-sights" rifle [mounted with cameras] used during the next motorcade cycle. I told him that it would be quite interesting to see [as I suspected] that any 2nd floor DalTex window shooter would have had NO SHOT at JFK after the turn in front of the TSBD.

When he inquired as to my theory, I responded that: With the "J/Canoe" now going downhill, the Secret Service "outriders" would have totally blocked any rear-view of JFK !!

He responded: "..Well...I don't know if Garrison suspected this..??!! I interrupted stating that: IT is for us Oliver, IT is for us....don't use it in the movie if you talk to Garrison tomorrow -- and he gives you a blank stare....leave it out...but IT is for us...!!" He did it, but left it out of the movie. I was correct, the window shooters were completely blocked by the SS "Outriders" 100% !! Somebody tell "THAT" to the fools in Dallas next week. Give'm a cardiac, won't you ??!! But don't tell a certain Lady, cause she opted to ignore THAT when I began assisting her over 5 years ago !!

Chairs,

GPH

_________________________

Thanks Mr. Hemming.

Facinating stuff. I plan to rewatch it again. I can't hear the dialogue too well since Costner is talking a bit loud during that portion.

Perhaps the SS blocking the shot had something to do with a botched shot that ended up hitting the curb by Tague? Elm has a very serious pitch and curve to it. The 2nd floor of the DalTex would literally provide a small 'window' of opportunity seems to me.

The inset is a crop from the Altgens 6 - maybe there is a face in the bottom right of the window. The radio seems consistent with one of those sliver Motorola Slimline 220s.

I laid down in the dirt for this shot. Covered in burrs, and amused the tourists. Took it from approximately where the round hit the curb that ended up sending a chip of concrete into Tague's cheek.

Thanks as always for the response.

- lee

[Lee Forman]

To add a little illustration to the discussion...

[Guest Tom Scully]

The problem with the LBJ/Warren line that the WC was needed or else 40 mil might die is that so many misinterpret the line. Since there was NO WAY nukes could be launched without LBJ's approval, it's clear he was saying one of two things. 1) I, LBJ, am responsible for the murder of President Kennedy and will protect my ill-gotten office by all means possible, including starting WW3!!! or 2) I, LBJ, am so unsure of my situation, and so fearful that President Kennedy was killed by AN INTERNAL MILITARY COUP, that I believe the military might over-throw me if I attempt to investigate their complicity in President Kennedy's murder, and thereby start WW3!!... Either interpretation tells us that Democracy went awry.

There is no rational way to interpret the LBJ/Warren line other than one of these two ways. Your attempt to search for an "innocent" way out is at times admirable but in this instance pathetic. The oft-repeated interpretation that LBJ was concerned Eastland, Thurmond, et al would try and blame the Russians and "force" po' Lyndon into a nuclear war just doesn't wash in the real world. It's prime b.s. Johnson was the President, and knew better than anyone the power of the Presidency. No war could have happened without his say so, and he would only have said so if he thought the investigation was coming after him. Look what happened to Ferrie after Boggs and Clark warned Johnson Garrison considered him (Johnson) a suspect!

Quick review of how I got here, dredging up this ole thread:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...mp;#entry166876

Warren Commission Born Out of Fear; Washington Wanted to Stop Speculation Series: THE ASSASSINATION FILES Series Number: 1/3;

Walter Pincus, George Lardner Jr.. The Washington Post . Washington, D.C.: Nov 14, 1993.

..."We were just scared to death that this was something bigger than just the act of a madman," recalled George Ball, the undersecretary then running the State Department in Dean Rusk's absence.

Neither Katzenbach, nor Ball, nor other top foreign policy and defense officials charged with maintaining domestic security and international stability believed the Soviet Union was behind the assassination of the president. The Soviets, they thought, simply had too much to lose from the repercussions of such an act, and were as mindful of the delicate balance of superpower relations as the Americans....

..Sunday, Nov. 24...

....The acting attorney general began calling friends and colleagues he hoped would share his belief that a blue-ribbon commission was needed. One call interrupted Katzenbach's friend, Yale Law School Dean Eugene Rostow, in the midst of a party at his house. Rostow called Ball to talk it over, and then called the White House to talk with Johnson aide Bill D. Moyers....

Quoting the 1993 news reporting above, I think Max Holland protests too much, for the details are in the "back story", as you can see below, he

reposted this the following 1999 WCR "apology" piece, again in 2007:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=...brdOL3hSEeIR9jQ

The Key to the Warren Report

By Max Holland

Seen in its proper historical context — amid the height of the Cold War — the investigation into Kennedy’s assassination looks much more impressive and its shortcomings much more understandable.

..The Warren Commission’s inquiry occurred at what we now know was the height of the Cold War, and it must be judged in that context. Perhaps with its history understood, the Warren Commission, instead of being an object of derision, can emerge in a different light, battered somewhat but with the essential integrity of its criminal investigation unscathed. The terrible events that began in Dallas are not an overwhelming, unfathomable crossroads; they are another chapter in the history of the Cold War.

In September 1964, when seven lawyers filed into Lyndon Johnson’s White House to deliver their 888-page report on the most searing national event since the attack on Pearl Harbor, the transmogrification of the commission into a national joke would have seemed impossible....

....For security-conscious officials, however, Oswald’s arrest meant replacing one Cold War scenario with another, and the second script filled them with no less dread than the first. Undersecretary of State George Ball ordered a search of federal files as soon as the networks broadcast Oswald’s capture. Dallas authorities found pro-Soviet and pro-Castro literature in Oswald’s boardinghouse room, and frantic searches of FBI, CIA, and State Department records revealed Oswald’s defection to the Soviet Union, his recent contacts with the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City, and his one-man Fair Play for Cuba committee in New Orleans. Top officials working through the night to assemble all the pieces had to wonder if the KGB had transformed a onetime defector into an assassin or if Castro had used an overt sympathizer to retaliate against an administration plotting his downfall. As Ball told The Washington Post in 1993, “we were just scared to death that this was something bigger than just the act of a madman.”...

http://www.washingtondecoded.com/site/2002/09/index.html

09 September 2002

Editor’s Note: In the August 5/12, 2002 issue of The Nation, Oliver Stone and Zachary Sklar published an advertisement that consisted of a letter to the editor of Foreign Affairs, which they had written but the journal refused to run. The letter criticized a review in Foreign Affairs of an article about Jim Garrison that had been published in Studies in Intelligence.

The Stone/Sklar advertisement is posted here verbatim, along with a rebuttal that subsequently appeared in the September 2/9 issue of The Nation, and lastly, Stone/Sklar's October 7 rejoinder.

Oliver Stone on Jim Garrison, the KGB, and the CIA

An Open Letter to Foreign Affairs Magazine

Last fall, Nation contributing editor Max Holland wrote an article for the CIA publication Studies in Intelligence asserting that former New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison was duped by a KGB disinformation operation that led him, along with most Americans, to believe that the CIA had been involved in the assassination of President Kennedy.

This spring, Foreign Affairs magazine published a generous review of Holland’s article. As co-writers of the film JFK, we sent a reply to Foreign Affairs. The editors refused to publish it. We offered to pay for an ad, but Foreign Affairs again refused.

For the record, here is our reply:

Dear Editors of Foreign Affairs:

Philip Zelikow’s review of Max Holland’s recent article in the CIA publication Studies in Intelligence is a disservice to your readers. Zelikow uncritically accepts Holland’s theory that a KGB disinformation operation back in 1967 is at the root of most Americans’ current belief that the CIA was involved in the assassination of President Kennedy......

Max Holland fails to mention that reacting with "fear", and "ordering a search" within minutes of the announcement of Oswald's capture, was not all that George Ball, Nicholas Katzenbach, Eugene Rostow, and LBJ and his Warren Commissioners did.....

They compromised the credibility of the WC and it's report via the appointments to the commission and it's counsels, and by the way these carefully picked individuals were conflicted in theirs interests at the start, and then manipulated as they went about the work of their inquiry, crimes not so different than jury tampering.....In addition to what we know about the conflicts of WC assistant counsel Albert E. Jenner Jr., the fact that he was the personnel attorney of Henry Crown and also represented General Dynamics in court in 1963, and the fact that Crown's son, John was an associate or a partner at Jenner's Chicago law firm since 1959, we now know that George Ball advised Eugene Rostow just before he called Bill Moyers within two hours of Oswald's death to pitch the idea of a Commission to investigate the JFK and Oswald murders, and now, that Ball had a hand in the appointment of another key WC assitant counsel....the one granted CIA security clearance and the close attention of Allen Dulles:

http://www.lbjlib.utexas.edu/Johnson/archi...l-G/Ball-g1.pdf

George Ball -- Interview I -- 9

Page 12 of 34

I took away from the department was telecons of my conversations for six years. I could

tell you a lot more, actually, if I sat down and reviewed them....

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hscslaw.htm

Attachment E: Executive Session Testimony of W. David Slawson and Wesley Liebeler.

SUBCOMMITTEE HEARING

TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 15, 1977

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

SUBCOMMITTEE ON THE ASSASSINATION

OF JOHN F. KENNEDY OF THE SELECT

COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS,

Washington, D.C.

... Mr. SLAWSON. I was an attorney in private practice in Denver, Colo. That really was the sum of my professional experience at that point

in 1964 when I received the telephone call. I graduated from law school in 1959. I had been in practice that entire time.

Mr. CORNWELL. What had been the nature of your practice?

Mr. SLAWSON. General corporation and business law with an emphasis on antitrust work.

Mr. CORNWELL. Who first contacted you with respect to possible

employment at the Warren commission?

Mr. SLAWSON. I have really forgotten. I think that it was Howard Willens but I did not know him at the time. i was a stranger who telephoned me, to my recollection.

Mr. CORNWELL. If you recall what was the nature of that first conversation?

Mr. SLAWSON. He introduced himself as a staff member of the recently formed Warren Commission and said that I had ben recommended highly to him by Tom Ehrlish, a classmate of mine at Harvard. At the time I think I remember he was a special assistant to George Ball, subsequently went into law school teaching, became a dean at Stanford. In any event he asked me if I would be interested in coming back for 3 to 6 months, I think was the time estimate. I thought I was interested but of course I would have to check it with my employers at the law firm and call him back. I did check with them and they approved of my going. I called him back. As I recollect I was on my way in about 2 days.....

...Mr. CORNWELL. With respect to statements made to you concerning the fact that you would be working in the foreign area what did they describe to you would be the objective of your work?

Mr. SLAWSON. Two things. The possibility of foreign conspiracy, foreign involvement. I have reread part of my old memos and I notice I used the words "foreign involvement' because it was a broader term. I have forgotten whether that was the way it was first given to me. And second, a simple narrative of everything that Lee Harvey Oswald or anyone else connected with him, like Marina, did while they were abroad.

Mr. CORNWELL. Were there any statements made to you initially concerning the fact that the staff was in any way restricted or confined to anything narrower than the general assignment, that you were to investigate the possibility that the assassination had been related to a foreign conspiracy?

Mr. SLAWSON. No; I don't think so.

Mr. CORNWELL. What was your understanding at this point in time either from statements made to you during the hiring process or from any other source, if there was any, concerning the reasons that the Warren Commission had been formed?

Mr. SLAWSON. I can't remember any particular statements other than those I have just related to you. of course, the whole country knew that it was to investigate the assassination of the President and determine the facts as to what happened and who was responsible so far as we could.

Mr. CORNWELL. To ask the question in reverse, would it be accurate to state that you had been given no specific information and had no impressions concerning the question of why it was that a special Presidential Commission was formed, as possibly contrasted to other alternatives for investigating the same event?

Mr. SLAWSON. I had no special instructions or information on that....

....Mr. CORNWELL. You mentioned in your answer just then that you had told us that the objective was to state the truth. I believe perhaps in our informal conversations you went into more detail on the subject matter than you have given the committee. What can you recall specifically of such conversations?

Mr. SLAWSON. I think it is hard to remember 13 years ago what the timing of all these things was but among the staff members themselves, like when I talked to Jim Liebeler and Dave Belin and Bert Griffin particularly we would sometimes speculate as to what would happen if we got firm evidence that pointed to some very high official. It sounds perhaps silly in retrospect to say it but there were even rumors at the time, of course, that President Johnson was involved. Of course that would present a kind of frightening prospect because if the President or anyone that high up was indeed involved that clearly were not going to allow someone like us to bring out the truth if they could stop us. The gist of it was that no one questioned the fact that we would still have to bring it out and would do our best to bring out just whatever the truth was. The only question in our mind was if we came upon such evidence that was at all credible how would we be able to protect it and bring it to the proper authorities.

Mr. CORNWELL. Where did such conversations occur when you speculated about the possible repercussions of findings that you might ultimately come across?

Mr. SLAWSON. Mostly at dinner at night. We should typically work late, again I can't remember but I would say 9 or 9:30, and then break for dinner and go to some restaurant nearby together and have drinks and sometimes we would kind of relax at the end of the day there. That would be most of the time.

During the office hours, of course, that kind of speculating wasn't so common. We were each busy with our separate tasks.

Mr. CORNWELL. Were there conversations like that of the possible repercussions from the nature of your investigation which went to matters other than the possible uncovering of evidence that President Johnson could have been involved? Were there other types of things you considered?

Mr. SLAWSON. When I said higher-ups I would include the people high up in the organization, the FBI and CIA tool Everybody was of course a possible suspect. If it had been say, a CIA conspiracy or some group within the CIA, then everything I said about Johnson would apply to them too. Anybody who was ruthless and determined enough to carry out the assassination of their President obviously would not stop at killing somebody else to cover up their tracks.

Mr. CORNWELL. What about the question of whether there was any similar speculation in the field of the possible repercussions in international relations, particularly your field?

Mr. SLAWSON. Well, that reminds me that later on, I think this kind of thing probably came up in the spring of 1964, March, April, around there, my end of the investigation went into following up some possible leads. I have forgotten their nature but they were very speculative but we ere following them up as best as we could about the anti-Castro Cubans. My interest in that possibility I think was especially strong because it seemed to me on the motivation side to make sense.

My theory was that perhaps, one, the anti-Castro Cubans we knew were very angry with Kennedy because they felt they had been betrayed with the Bay of Pigs. Oswald on the other hand was identified publicly with Castro, he was pro-Castro. so, we felt that if somehow the anti-Castro Cubans could have got Oswald to do it or done it themselves but framed Oswald, either way, somehow put the blame on Oswald, that they would achieve two objectives that they presumably wanted. One was revenge on Kennedy and the second would be to trigger American public opinion strongly against Castro and possibly cause an invasion of Cuba and overthrow of Castro, and of course these people would be able to go back to their homes in Cuba and not have to live under the Castro government. As I say, this made a lot of sense to me and I think it was a hypothesis held in mankind for quite a while trying to see if the facts would fit it. Ultimately they didn't.

Mr. CORNWELL. You focused on that area of inquiry and considered the possible motives that would be connected with that group. Did you likewise consider the possible international repercussions of investigations directed in that area?

Mr. SLAWSON. Sure. What you meant by that of course there would be an international repercussion that the United States would invade Cuba bur if it turned out that our investigation showed that Castro was involved, which of course is another line of inquiry we followed through as thoroughly as we could, this would I think probably have triggered at the very least the downfall of the Cuban Government.

I don't think that the American Government would have ever or would today stand by and upon proven charges that their President had been killed at the order of some other government, would just allow it to go by. they would either insist that the people in that government be prosecuted or if they weren't I suppose we would invade. So we thought we might be triggering a war with Cuba. But again that was something that the chips would have to fall where they may.

Mr. CORNWELL. You told us initially in our conversations that possible repercussions of finding evidence of officials of the United States being involved were discussed during conversations among various members of your staff at your level including Redlich and Rankin.

Mr. SLAWSON. That is right.

Mr. CORNWELL. Would that also include the international repercussions you have just told us about?

Mr. SLAWSON. With Redlich, yes. With Rankin also yes but more briefly. Rankin, you remember, was the boss of the whole operation. Consequently I had far fewer informal discussions with him. He was my superior. Also he was married and had his family here and whereas most of the rest of us, I wasn't married at the time and those that were had left their families someplace else, so we spent alot more time together at meals and stuff than with Redlich and Rankin.

Mr. CORNWELL. Did you discuss it with any members outside the staff?

Mr. SLAWSON. No.

Mr. CORNWELL. Did you discuss it with any members of the Warren Commission?

Mr. SLAWSON. That I can't remember. The only one I might have would have been Allen Dulles. Allen Dulles and I became fairly close,....

Read Slawson's entire testimony of his reaction to Allen Dulles, and then click on the history-matters link and read all of this excerpted page:

http://www.history-matters.com/essays/fram...Mysteries_1.htm

More Mexico Mysteries

Rex Bradford

May 2002

I. Introduction - Mexico City: The Rosetta Stone.....

...Coleman. By that time…..we were sophisticated with the CIA, and therefore we wrote memoranda…..we tried to use the jargon of the CIA, because we felt it was important not to even indicate to everybody on the Commission some of these sources, because…..Dave Slawson had a special clearance with the CIA and there were some people that didn't [Taped HSCA interview of William Coleman, 8-2-78].....

.....According to Mr. Slawson, only Messrs. Rankin, Willens, Coleman (?) and he presently know of the telephone taps in Mexico City. Slawson, Willens and Coleman were briefed on the taps during their visit to Mexico City.

According to Mr. Slawson, no member of the Commission now knows of the telephone taps in Mexico City (he did not mention Mr. Dulles).

Mr. [ ******** ] carefully briefed Mr. Slawson (probably rebriefed him) on the importance of these telephone taps to U.S. security and the grave damage that would be done to U.S. - Mexican relations if knowledge of their existence became public.

Mr. Slawson quite clearly was a bit unhappy that certain information could not be used, since the taps were the only source....

40 Million Americans

....Who's Kostikov? Warren Commission Document 347, one of those withheld until the 1990s, is a CIA report on Oswald's Mexico City trip, written on January 31, 1964. It contains the following: ......

.....This information is apparently what prompted Lyndon Johnson to tell Senator Richard Russell:

…..we've got to be taking this out of the arena where they're testifying that Khrushchev and Castro did this and did that, and kicking us into a war that can kill 40 million Americans in an hour [Phone call between Lyndon Johnson and Richard Russell, 11-29-63, 8:55 PM]

Johnson, of course, had learned almost immediately that it wasn't really Oswald on the phone, and so this Department Thirteen connection was a phony one. But he presumably didn't tell that to Chief Justice Earl Warren when he arm-wrestled Warren onto his President's Commission, with "what Hoover told me about a little incident in Mexico City" [from 11-29-63 LBJ-Russell call].

Max Holland seems to still be playing LBJ's and the CIA's "con" on the WC and on the American people.

Edited May 6, 2009 by Tom Scully

[Peter McGuire]

The movie “JFK” can not be dismissed outright, although those who cover-up the assassination try to do just that.

There is a thing called "artistic license " for those who have not heard of it.

Despite that, it is closer to the truth than the official version; and not that far off from what really happened .

Edited January 1, 2010 by Peter McGuire