42nd anniversary and where are we?

[Tim Gratz]

This excerpt from the appellate decision confirming Hiss' conviction may be helpful:

The jury had ample evidence other than the testimony of Mr. Chambers on which to find, as it evidently did, that the documents of which Mr. Chambers produced copies were all available to Mr. Hiss at the State Department and that finding, coupled with the admitted fact that they were copied on a typewriter which the jury could well find was used for that purpose when in the possession of Mr. Hiss in his home, supplied circumstances which strongly corroborated the testimony of Mr. Chambers. Indeed, such known circumstances tend to fill out a normal pattern of probability when so interpreted, while in attempting to reconcile them with the appellant's denial of association with the delivery of State Department documents, or their copies, to Mr. Chambers, one approaches the realm of sheer speculation. To the prosecution's theory that the appellant abstracted these copied documents and took them home where they were copied on a typewriter which the jury could, and doubtless did, find was then in his home, the only possible alternative is that one or more others abstracted them (for there is not the slightest evidence or suggestion that this Woodstock typewriter was ever in the State Department) and then took what pains were needed to copy them, or have them copied, on that particular typewriter either at the Hiss home or elsewhere on some later date and, if at the Hiss home, unbeknown to Mr. or Mrs. Hiss. Obviously that would have entailed some risk of detection by the Hisses which the use of some other means of copying would not have involved. It seems abundantly clear that the jury was amply justified in believing that these circumstances did not indicate some ulterior motive to harm the appellant at some future date to harm the appellant but in believing that they pinned the abstractions and deliveries fast to the appellant himself. The foregoing is an attempt not to summarize the mass of evidence introduced at the trial below, but only to show, as we think it does, that there was independent evidence sufficient as a matter of law, if believed and so considered by the jury, to substantiate the testimony of Mr. Chambers in compliance with the rule in perjury cases as to both counts.

United States v Alger Hiss. 185 F2d 282 (SecondCir.1950).

Edited November 20, 2005 by Tim Gratz

[Tim Gratz]

An article on Hiss b y Ron Capshaw:

In Oliver Stone's "JFK," the whistleblower about the government plot to kill Kennedy explains how conspiracy theories have misdirected the public: "Oswald, Ruby, Cuba, Castro. It's like a parlor game that keeps them guessing, keeps them from asking the important questions."

This same comment could be applied to the defense strategy of Alger Hiss, State Department official, the man who sat behind FDR at Yalta, the man who shook Harry Truman's hand on the United Nations' stage, and agent ALES of the fourth section of Soviet Military Intelligence. Exposed as a Soviet spy in his lifetime by the pumpkin papers and posthumously by declassified Soviet cables, Hiss responded by generating his own parlor game -- accusing forged typewriters, spurned homosexuals, anti-New Deal forces, FDR, Hoover, Nixon, and the China lobby as being all part of the vast, rightwing conspiracy that tried to frame him. Hiss’s parlor game was designed to obscure the most important questions: namely, why did he spy for the Soviet Union and why did he maintain his innocence for nearly 50 years?

In his new biography, Alger Hiss: The Looking Glass Wars, G. Edward White ignores the parlor game and instead focuses the spotlight on Hiss himself. He does well in offering a psychological portrait of a compartmentalizer who jealously guarded his secret life. But he is more interested in uncovering Hiss's psychological makeup than his ideology. He merely attributes Hiss's turn toward Stalinism in the early 1930s to his wife, Priscilla, a member of the Socialist Party at that time (White forgets the enmity between the CPUSA and the American Socialist Party in the early 1930s, which expressed itself during a famous dustup at Madison Square Garden in 1934).

Focusing solely on the ideological influence of Priscilla ignores an earlier event that may have politicized Hiss and served as a model for his own defense.

Hiss was a student at Harvard during a feverish campaign to save Sacco and Vanzetti, the two Italian anarchists accused of murder. His mentor, Felix Frankfurter, led this campaign and would later write a book asserting their innocence. The pair's execution politicized an entire generation of leftists. Playwright John Howard Lawson would join the Communist Party because of it and go on to head the Hollywood branch. John Dos Passos, already a sympathizer with the Communist Party, would be pushed by the event as far to the left as he ever would, according to his biographer, Townshend Ludington.

During the protests, Dos Passos wrote that "the case has become part of the world struggle between the capitalist class and the working class, between those have power and those who are struggling to get it." Writer Robert Lovett said that the case "forced me to accept a doctrine which I had always repudiated as partisan tactics -the class war." Although Hiss never commented publicly on how this event affected him, his close friend, Harvard classmate, State Department confidant, and fellow cell member, Noel Field, spoke of his own conversion experience:

“...my wife and I sat beside the radio in our tiny Washington apartment and with waning hope followed the last-minute efforts to save the lives of Sacco andVanzetti. I remained true to the beliefs that began to take shape, oh, how vague and how slowly, during the ghastly wake, when hope changed to despair ....The shock of the Sacco-Vanzetti executions drove me leftward."

Soon after that, Field began the dual life of government official and Soviet agent. Hiss himself followed this same trajectory. His exposure to Sacco and Vanzetti may also explain the tactics he used to vindicate himself from 1948 on. Being a witness to, and possible participant in the campaign to save them, Hiss was undoubtedly aware of what a powerful recruiting poster for the Left the pair was, and how this power came from their continued protestations of their innocence (later evidence showed their guilt). To the Left, the propaganda message of two innocent immigrants executed by the government was a powerful indictment of a nativist, repressive society.

Hiss may have adopted a similar role of the innocent liberal whose imprisonment was an indictment of American society. Such a pose of innocence would require a lifetime commitment, one fuelled by either game playing or ideology or both. Evidence certainly points to ideology. Hiss's fellow cell members, Whittaker Chambers and Nathan Weyl, characterized Hiss as a dedicated communist. This dedication became apparent when he tried to obtain atomic information that was not part of his official duties at State, which was carried out while he was under investigation by the State Department's security branch. Part of this may have been recklessness, an O.J Simpson-like belief of being immune from consequences. But it may have also been powered in his mind by a desire to push history toward communism.

White highlights the self-serving aspects of the Hiss personality, but he ignores the propagandist who popped up at odd moments. During his investigation by HUAC, Hiss implied a favorable view of the Popular Front period, a period from 1936-39 when liberals and communists formed alliances to fight fascism. In the 1970s, Hiss was interviewed while surrounded by former members of his cell, John Abt and Jessica Smith. All the while, he spoke admiringly of FDR and the New Deal; the intended effect may have been to blur the distinctions between Soviet spies and the more respected New Deal -- the Party Line in the1930s.

Aware of Hiss's penchant for propaganda, one can ascertain why he was reportedly "exhilarated" at going to prison in 1950. Here was an opportunity to become a recruiting poster for the cause of Sacco and Vanzetti. The two had inspired a generation by both proclaiming their innocence and their status as political prisoners of a repressive America. Hiss did likewise. While inside and outside of prison, he played the role of political prisoner, reading Lenin's works behind bars and telling interviewers throughout his life that his trial was "contrived for political purposes." At the same time, he spent the remainder of his life asserting his innocence.

If Hiss' post-1948 tactics were intended for recruiting purposes, he certainly got his wish. The Nation Magazine from 1948 to his day deifies Hiss (recently, editor Victor Navasky has admitted Hiss's espionage but has tried to attach patriotic motives to it). Hiss had his own Felix Frankfurter in lawyer/activist John Lowenthal, who championed his cause in books and documentaries and by pressuring Soviet historians to clear Hiss. Today, Barnard College has an Alger Hiss chair in history. Like the pair that politicized Hiss, Hiss politicized others.

But Hiss also emulated Sacco and Vanzetti in a more long-lasting respect: he sent his followers out on a limb he knew would one day break.

[Dawn Meredith]

[quote name='Terry Mauro' date='Nov 19 2005, 10:06 PM' post='45777']

*****************************************************************************

Owen, you are SO gifted!!!

Thank you for the link.

Dawn, this kid should go directly to Harvard or Stanford, NOW! Then, we should send him on a summer sabbatical, to do internship for the Education Forum, at NARA. If there's anyone who'd be able to decipher the filing system over there, it'd be him.

Ter,

I totally agree. He's one very bright boy/man. I hope he's applying to Ivy League. Certainly deserves to be in the best this nation has to offer.

Dawn

[Tim:

I am not going to debate you on the Hiss case. I believe he was framed. Period. You believe the opposite, that your guy Tricky Dick could do no wrong.

Read the posted article Tim. If you disagree it's your right to do so. After all you still support the disinformation that it was Castro that killed JFK, in spite of all the evidence to the contrary, so your logic is not something I am going to attempt to "take on". I will leave that to your able debating partner Robert Dunne (sp?) (Sorry Robert if I should have an "o" and not a "u".) I really enjoy THOSE posts and debates!!!.

"There ain't not good guys, there ain't no bad guys; there's only you and me and we just disagree"

On pretty much everything.

Dawn

[Owen Parsons]

You didn't address a single article I posted, Tim. That article you posted is wrong on several points (Hiss as ALES, and Navasky admitting Hiss' "espionage") and is in general pretty irrelevant.

The reason Hiss denied knowing Chambers was because he knew him under another name at the time ("George Crosley") and Chambers looked much different by the time he began making his accusations public. It was only later that it occured to Hiss that they might well be the same man.

Edited November 20, 2005 by Owen Parsons

[Terry Mauro]

An article on Hiss b y Ron Capshaw:

In Oliver Stone's "JFK," the whistleblower about the government plot to kill Kennedy explains how conspiracy theories have misdirected the public: "Oswald, Ruby, Cuba, Castro. It's like a parlor game that keeps them guessing, keeps them from asking the important questions."

This same comment could be applied to the defense strategy of Alger Hiss, State Department official, the man who sat behind FDR at Yalta, the man who shook Harry Truman's hand on the United Nations' stage, and agent ALES of the fourth section of Soviet Military Intelligence. Exposed as a Soviet spy in his lifetime by the pumpkin papers and posthumously by declassified Soviet cables, Hiss responded by generating his own parlor game -- accusing forged typewriters, spurned homosexuals, anti-New Deal forces, FDR, Hoover, Nixon, and the China lobby as being all part of the vast, rightwing conspiracy that tried to frame him. Hiss’s parlor game was designed to obscure the most important questions: namely, why did he spy for the Soviet Union and why did he maintain his innocence for nearly 50 years?

In his new biography, Alger Hiss: The Looking Glass Wars, G. Edward White ignores the parlor game and instead focuses the spotlight on Hiss himself. He does well in offering a psychological portrait of a compartmentalizer who jealously guarded his secret life. But he is more interested in uncovering Hiss's psychological makeup than his ideology. He merely attributes Hiss's turn toward Stalinism in the early 1930s to his wife, Priscilla, a member of the Socialist Party at that time (White forgets the enmity between the CPUSA and the American Socialist Party in the early 1930s, which expressed itself during a famous dustup at Madison Square Garden in 1934).

Focusing solely on the ideological influence of Priscilla ignores an earlier event that may have politicized Hiss and served as a model for his own defense.

Hiss was a student at Harvard during a feverish campaign to save Sacco and Vanzetti, the two Italian anarchists accused of murder. His mentor, Felix Frankfurter, led this campaign and would later write a book asserting their innocence. The pair's execution politicized an entire generation of leftists. Playwright John Howard Lawson would join the Communist Party because of it and go on to head the Hollywood branch. John Dos Passos, already a sympathizer with the Communist Party, would be pushed by the event as far to the left as he ever would, according to his biographer, Townshend Ludington.

During the protests, Dos Passos wrote that "the case has become part of the world struggle between the capitalist class and the working class, between those have power and those who are struggling to get it." Writer Robert Lovett said that the case "forced me to accept a doctrine which I had always repudiated as partisan tactics -the class war." Although Hiss never commented publicly on how this event affected him, his close friend, Harvard classmate, State Department confidant, and fellow cell member, Noel Field, spoke of his own conversion experience:

“...my wife and I sat beside the radio in our tiny Washington apartment and with waning hope followed the last-minute efforts to save the lives of Sacco andVanzetti. I remained true to the beliefs that began to take shape, oh, how vague and how slowly, during the ghastly wake, when hope changed to despair ....The shock of the Sacco-Vanzetti executions drove me leftward."

Soon after that, Field began the dual life of government official and Soviet agent. Hiss himself followed this same trajectory. His exposure to Sacco and Vanzetti may also explain the tactics he used to vindicate himself from 1948 on. Being a witness to, and possible participant in the campaign to save them, Hiss was undoubtedly aware of what a powerful recruiting poster for the Left the pair was, and how this power came from their continued protestations of their innocence (later evidence showed their guilt). To the Left, the propaganda message of two innocent immigrants executed by the government was a powerful indictment of a nativist, repressive society.

Hiss may have adopted a similar role of the innocent liberal whose imprisonment was an indictment of American society. Such a pose of innocence would require a lifetime commitment, one fuelled by either game playing or ideology or both. Evidence certainly points to ideology. Hiss's fellow cell members, Whittaker Chambers and Nathan Weyl, characterized Hiss as a dedicated communist. This dedication became apparent when he tried to obtain atomic information that was not part of his official duties at State, which was carried out while he was under investigation by the State Department's security branch. Part of this may have been recklessness, an O.J Simpson-like belief of being immune from consequences. But it may have also been powered in his mind by a desire to push history toward communism.

White highlights the self-serving aspects of the Hiss personality, but he ignores the propagandist who popped up at odd moments. During his investigation by HUAC, Hiss implied a favorable view of the Popular Front period, a period from 1936-39 when liberals and communists formed alliances to fight fascism. In the 1970s, Hiss was interviewed while surrounded by former members of his cell, John Abt and Jessica Smith. All the while, he spoke admiringly of FDR and the New Deal; the intended effect may have been to blur the distinctions between Soviet spies and the more respected New Deal -- the Party Line in the1930s.

Aware of Hiss's penchant for propaganda, one can ascertain why he was reportedly "exhilarated" at going to prison in 1950. Here was an opportunity to become a recruiting poster for the cause of Sacco and Vanzetti. The two had inspired a generation by both proclaiming their innocence and their status as political prisoners of a repressive America. Hiss did likewise. While inside and outside of prison, he played the role of political prisoner, reading Lenin's works behind bars and telling interviewers throughout his life that his trial was "contrived for political purposes." At the same time, he spent the remainder of his life asserting his innocence.

If Hiss' post-1948 tactics were intended for recruiting purposes, he certainly got his wish. The Nation Magazine from 1948 to his day deifies Hiss (recently, editor Victor Navasky has admitted Hiss's espionage but has tried to attach patriotic motives to it). Hiss had his own Felix Frankfurter in lawyer/activist John Lowenthal, who championed his cause in books and documentaries and by pressuring Soviet historians to clear Hiss. Today, Barnard College has an Alger Hiss chair in history. Like the pair that politicized Hiss, Hiss politicized others.

But Hiss also emulated Sacco and Vanzetti in a more long-lasting respect: he sent his followers out on a limb he knew would one day break.

**********************************************************************

"White highlights the self-serving aspects of the Hiss personality, but he ignores the propagandist who popped up at odd moments. During his investigation by HUAC, Hiss implied a favorable view of the Popular Front period, a period from 1936-39 when liberals and communists formed alliances to fight fascism. In the 1970s, Hiss was interviewed while surrounded by former members of his cell, John Abt and Jessica Smith. All the while, he spoke admiringly of FDR and the New Deal; the intended effect may have been to blur the distinctions between Soviet spies and the more respected New Deal -- the Party Line in the1930s."

John Abt. Wasn't that the name of the attorney LHO keep requesting to speak with, or have represent him?

[Tim Carroll]

John Abt. Wasn't that the name of the attorney LHO keep requesting to speak with, or have represent him?

On page 275 of Joan Mellen's book there is this account of Ruth Paine's testimony at the Shaw trial: "A chilling moment came when Paine struggled to explain why she had failed to honor Oswald's request that she call lawyer John Abt on his behalf."

Tim Carroll

[Terry Mauro]

John Abt. Wasn't that the name of the attorney LHO keep requesting to speak with, or have represent him?

On page 275 of Joan Mellen's book there is this account of Ruth Paine's testimony at the Shaw trial: "A chilling moment came when Paine struggled to explain why she had failed to honor Oswald's request that she call lawyer John Abt on his behalf."

Tim Carroll

*********************************************************

""On page 275 of Joan Mellen's book there is this account of Ruth Paine's testimony at the Shaw trial: "A chilling moment came when Paine struggled to explain why she had failed to honor Oswald's request that she call lawyer John Abt on his behalf.""

Thank you, T.C.

[Dawn Meredith]

John Abt: Wasn't that the name of the attorney LHO keep requesting to speak with, or have represent him?

Yes, that is who he asked for. I spent years trying to find him in the early 70's thru mid 80's. Called ACLU all over, including NY where he was allededly out of. But never could find him. I wanted to ask HIM why he thought Lee was asking for him, if he ever learned this, and what his response whould have been.

Anyone here ever manage to track him down and ask those questions?

Dawn

[William Kelly]

John Abt: Wasn't that the name of the attorney LHO keep requesting to speak with, or have represent him?

Yes, that is who he asked for. I spent years trying to find him in the early 70's thru mid 80's. Called ACLU all over, including NY where he was allededly out of. But never could find him. I wanted to ask HIM why he thought Lee was asking for him, if he ever learned this, and what his response whould have been.

Anyone here ever manage to track him down and ask those questions?

Dawn

Hello Dawn,

John Abt did testify before the Warren Commission, one of the shortest testimonies on record, quick hello, who are you, why are you here? Okay, Goodbye, perfunctory interviews, just to say that they did it.

More important is the book I Led Three Lives, which gets into the types of cases that Abt handled, at least the cases Oswald was familiar with. I hope somebody got to Abt and asked him the right questions because I think he's dead, though I could be wrong on that count.

And Dawn, I wanted to say that I think the topic of this thread is probably the most important one on topic at this point in time, and hope we can get back to it sometime.

Bill Kelly

[Dawn Meredith]

[quote name='William Kelly' date='Nov 27 2005, 12:29 AM' post='46563']

John Abt: Wasn't that the name of the attorney LHO keep requesting to speak with, or have represent him?

Yes, that is who he asked for. I spent years trying to find him in the early 70's thru mid 80's. Called ACLU all over, including NY where he was allededly out of. But never could find him. I wanted to ask HIM why he thought Lee was asking for him, if he ever learned this, and what his response whould have been.

Anyone here ever manage to track him down and ask those questions?

Dawn

Hello Dawn,

John Abt did testify before the Warren Commission, one of the shortest testimonies on record, quick hello, who are you, why are you here? Okay, Goodbye, perfunctory interviews, just to say that they did it.

More important is the book I Led Three Lives, which gets into the types of cases that Abt handled, at least the cases Oswald was familiar with. I hope somebody got to Abt and asked him the right questions because I think he's dead, though I could be wrong on that count.

And Dawn, I wanted to say that I think the topic of this thread is probably the most important one on topic at this point in time, and hope we can get back to it sometime.

Bill Kelly

Thanx Bill. I just now thought of something. I read someplace last week that Dallas DA Bill Hill is not running for re-election. Wouldn't it be terrific is someone who gives a xxxx ran, got elected and convened a Grand Jury there, while there are people still living TO indict??? Justa thought....

Dawn

[William Kelly]

[quote name='William Kelly' date='Nov 27 2005, 12:29 AM' post='46563']

John Abt: Wasn't that the name of the attorney LHO keep requesting to speak with, or have represent him?

Yes, that is who he asked for. I spent years trying to find him in the early 70's thru mid 80's. Called ACLU all over, including NY where he was allededly out of. But never could find him. I wanted to ask HIM why he thought Lee was asking for him, if he ever learned this, and what his response whould have been.

Anyone here ever manage to track him down and ask those questions?

Dawn

Hello Dawn,

John Abt did testify before the Warren Commission, one of the shortest testimonies on record, quick hello, who are you, why are you here? Okay, Goodbye, perfunctory interviews, just to say that they did it.

More important is the book I Led Three Lives, which gets into the types of cases that Abt handled, at least the cases Oswald was familiar with. I hope somebody got to Abt and asked him the right questions because I think he's dead, though I could be wrong on that count.

And Dawn, I wanted to say that I think the topic of this thread is probably the most important one on topic at this point in time, and hope we can get back to it sometime.

Bill Kelly

Thanx Bill. I just now thought of something. I read someplace last week that Dallas DA Bill Hill is not running for re-election. Wouldn't it be terrific is someone who gives a xxxx ran, got elected and convened a Grand Jury there, while there are people still living TO indict??? Justa thought....

Dawn

New Orleans DA Harry Connick, Sr. also has been replaced, so there is some new blood in the ranks, who could conceiveably at least read a grand jury petition and consider it.

I think it will be easier to convince an asst. Federal DA to take the evidence to his boss - a Federal District Attorney - like Fitzpatrick - and get them to empanal a special grand jury, and once that happens, the folks in Dallas and New Orleans will try to claim jurisdiction and do their own, though after what happend to Garrison, it won't be an easy sell.

BK

[Tim Gratz]

To Bill:

I fully support your idea.

Now with the old caveat that a grand jury would indict a ham sandwich if requested by the prosecuitor, do you believe there is sufficient evidence to seriously indict any living individual (even for being an accessory)? That I think is one problem.

But Dawn's idea to run a right-thinking (here I mean "right" in the sense of understanding there was a conspiracy) in Dallas is an excellent opportunity and a necessary first step!

Edited December 2, 2005 by Tim Gratz

[Dawn Meredith]

To Bill:

I fully support your idea.

Now with the old caveat that a grand jury would indict a ham sandwich if requested by the prosecuitor, do you believe there is sufficient evidence to seriously indict any living individual (even for being an accessory)? That I think is one problem.

But Dawn's idea to run a right-thinking (here I mean "right" in the sense of understanding there was a conspiracy) in Dallas is an excellent opportunity and a necessary first step!

Tim: I think there is sufficient evidence to indict under the engaging in criminal activity statute here in Tx. All that is required is an "overt act, beyond mere preparation". It takes little to fall into this category. We called it "the law of parties" in law school, (the terminology I still perfer).

But HOW TO GET someone to run who is also aware of this case is the big problem. And also someone with the integrity to actually DO SOMETHING. Keep in mind that many have died under mysterious causes; that alone would give most DA's pause.

Bill: I had been hopeful about Fitzgerald himself, after reading about him, but it would be a stretch to go from the Plame matter to JFK, tho it is all tied together, sort of. However, to understand that, one would have to have a very good working knowledge of this case and how all the dots do connect to today.

I nominate Ron to draft a memo to Fitzgerald, adding to his "why I don't vote" post. You never know.

It is really up to us to educate people, tho when I tried to sell the idea of conspiracy to a bunch of juvenile court prosecutors this time two years ago, at a luncheon, it was met with schocked restistance.

Dawn

[Tim Gratz]

Dawn, indict WHO?

One suggestion: Indict Files; seek the death penalty; see what he then says.

But use a "Files grand jury" to re-open the investigation.

Problem is whether a responsible DA would indict Files.

[William Kelly]

Dawn, indict WHO?

One suggestion: Indict Files; seek the death penalty; see what he then says.

But use a "Files grand jury" to re-open the investigation.

Problem is whether a responsible DA would indict Files.

T.G.

You're the one who brings up Files. I don't think anyone has even mentioned him seriously here.

First off, DAs don't indict, they take the evidence to a grand jury, who examines the evidence and then votes on whether to indict or not.

There are dozens of crimes - and once a grand jury begins takeing sworn testimony - perjury.

Forget Files, the Paines would be first in line.

BK