The Right Wing in Dallas on 11/22/63

[Robert Howard]

I wanted to explore a few areas, that ostensibly provide new avenues of research within the context of "what we know now, that we didn't know then."

First of the bat is a name that is familiar to some - Warren Caster; He was the District Mgr. for Southwestern Publishing Co in the Texas School Book Depository, he also garnered attention by virtue of the fact that 'he brought a Mauser rifle (30.06) into the Depository (along with a Reminigton single shot rifle) two day's before the assassination, and there is more! At the time of the assassination he was eating lunch at North Texas State University, which oddly enough was also where the universities "Young Peoples Republican Club" had planned to join alongside Edwin Walker in a protest during President Kennedy's (now infamous) motorcade. The protest was called off after the Dallas Police learned of said plan, ostensibly Walker departed on Nov. 21, and neither he nor his 'group' as the Warren Commission referred to it materialized. It would be 'interesting to ascertain' whether there was any possible connection between this 'group' and the individuals who were arrested at Dallas Market Hall (William Lee Cummings, Gene Guinn, and the Joiner family) across from the Trade Mart, where Kennedy would have spoken that day, or even others. Is it true that 'bullets' were found on these individuals?

There are a plethora of other interesting characters, that may need to be looked at in light of what we now know. But I felt this would be a good beginning; Incidentally, Gene Guinn was 'rumored' to have done printing for George Lincoln Rockwell, a well known 'Nazi lover,' whose name glances the pages of Joan Mellen's infamous AFTJ as 'someone' who was associating with Thomas Beckham. But I guess since her book has been 'discredited' that is irrelevant.

Edited December 20, 2005 by Robert Howard

[John Dolva]

I think this is an interesting thread for many reasons.

One that comes to mind is that while researching the Oxford insurrection, General Walker has been described as the person who controlled the anti-integration forces from within the University grounds. He has been described as speaking to the students and giving advice. So there is a conncetion there with the student body.

Further: The young men waving the confederate battle flag at Love field and other locations along the motorcade have been described as students.

So, given how student bodies themselves connect between campuses, perhaps the demonstration described by Ron did go ahead after all.

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edit :: correction as per post #6

Edited December 21, 2005 by John Dolva

[William Kelly]

I wanted to explore a few areas, that ostensibly provide new avenues of research within the context of "what we know now, that we didn't know then."

....... It would be 'interesting to ascertain' whether there was any possible connection between this 'group' and the individuals who were arrested at Dallas Market Hall (William Lee Cummings, Gene Guinn, and the Joiner family) across from the Trade Mart, where Kennedy would have spoken that day, or even others. Is it true that 'bullets' were found on these individuals?

There are a plethora of other interesting characters, that may need to be looked at in light of what we now know. But I felt this would be a good beginning; Incidentally, Gene Guinn was 'rumored' to have done printing for George Lincoln Rockwell, a well known 'Nazi lover,' whose name glances the pages of Joan Mellen's infamous AFTJ as 'someone' who was associating with Thomas Beckham. But I guess since her book has been 'discredited' that is irrelevant.

Robert,

I too am now interested in Thomas Beckman, whose New Orleans Grand Jury testimony is posted on line [http://history-matters.com/arcive/jfk/garr/grandjury/beckman/html/beckman0029b.htm ]

from Feb. 15, 1968.

This testimony gives you a good idea of the grand jury questioning of a reluctant witness who eventually spills the beans - cut to the chase - p. 40-50 - where you can see a juror asking a question, and Garrison bringing out Beckman's association with Lt. Col. Lowery USAF, Operations Officer of the Planning Division of SAC at Alford AFB, who works with something called Looking Glass - a SAC "A long story."

BK

bkjfk3@yahoo.com

[Tim Carroll]

...North Texas State University, which oddly enough was also where the universities "Young Peoples Republican Club" had planned to join alongside Edwin Walker in a protest during President Kennedy's (now infamous) motorcade. The protest was called off after the Dallas Police learned of said plan, ostensibly Walker departed on Nov. 21, and neither he nor his 'group' as the Warren Commission referred to it materialized.

I believe there was a concerted effort reaching the highest levels of Dallas powerbrokering to keep the right-wing quiet that day. This connects to the information that had been received by H. L. Hunt and presumably others that an administration "incident" was planned for Dallas that could be blamed on the right-wing:

"The Hunts learned that President Kennedy's visit to Dallas might be greeted with violence nearly three weeks before the President crossed the state line. The warning came from the family's master intelligence man, Hunt Oil security chief Paul Rothermel. In a November 4, 1963, interoffice memo headlined 'POLITICS,' Rothermel informed his boss that there had been 'unconfirmed reports of possible violence during the parade' scheduled to take place when Kennedy arrived in town on November 22. Although Rothermel did not directly identify his sources, it was clear from his memo that he was sharing information the FBI and the Dallas Police Department were getting from informants placed in General Edwin Walker's right-wing political action groups in Dallas and on the campus of North Texas State University in Denton.

'The North Texas informant is reporting information that would indicate that that group may be planning an incident,' Rothermel wrote. 'There is another report from a left-wing group that an incident will occur with the knowledge of the President whereby the left-wingers will start the incident in hopes of dragging in any of the right side groups or individuals nearby and then withdrawing. The talk is that the incident involving Adlai Stevenson made the present administration hopeful in that if they could get the same thing to happen to Kennedy it could reassure his election....' As Rothermel pointed out in his memo to Hunt, 'If an incident were to occur, the true story of who perpetrated it would never come out.' Rothermel, however, had a solution to suggest. 'I have thought about the problem,' he wrote, 'and I am wondering if a few letters to the editor might not be a good way of pre-exposing this if, in fact, there is a planned incident.'"

Harry Hurt III, Texas Rich, (New York: W. W. Norton & Co., 1981), pp. 223-224.

Hunt did write an editorial, not to expose the administration's scheme, but rather to discourage any right-wing demonstrations that could be exploited. We don't know what Dallas oilmen like H. L. Hunt, Clint Murchison and Sid Richardson really did about their inside information. There can be little doubt, however, that their information was based on quality intelligence. An example would be the assertions in the new book, Ultimate Sacrifice, about a planned invasion of Cuba. On pages 237-238:

"In a provocative memo dated February 6, 1964, Rothermel informed Hunt that 'Lyndon B. Johnson is mortally afraid of being assassinated and does not trust the Secret Service to protect him. He has ordered the F.B.I. to be present everywhere he goes with no less than two men and more when there is any possibility that he will be exposed. Johnson has confidentially placed a direct telephone line from his office to J. Edgar Hoover's desk.'

Four days after the report on LBJ, Rothermel brought his boss some even more stunning news. 'There is information that the CIA and the State Department are currently planning a second invasion of Cuba,' Rothermel wrote. 'A very reliable source reports that the Manuel Ray group, which is extremely left-wing, has been in touch with the CIA and has agreed to a second invasion. The right-wing Cubans are being pressured to join the invasion. The second invasion is being closely scrutinized by John Martino, leader of the right-wing groups, for fear it will be a second Bay of Pigs fiasco.'"

T.C.

Harry Hurt III, Texas Rich, (New York: W. W. Norton & Co., 1981), pp. 223-224.

Edited December 21, 2005 by Tim Carroll

[Joan Mellen]

It is clear that the difference between what Beckham testified to under oath to a Grand Jury in 1968 and what he stated recently, not under oath, is like night and day. There are two possible explanations:

One is that Beckham lied in 1968 because of fear, but is now telling the truth.

The other is that Beckham told the truth in 1968 but is lying or exaggerating now.

The same choice applies to why Jack S. Martin, Beckham's friend (and perhaps more) told HSCA that Beckham was a xxxx, a dead end: One possibility is that Martin feared he would implicate him. The other is that Martin was correct, Beckham was a teller of tall tales.

Hi, Steve! I appreciate this question in particular because there has been a great deal of controversy on Thomas Edward Beckham, whose story runs throughout "A Farewell to Justice." In New Orleans on December 7th, I had a long talk with L. J. Delsa, whom you all know as a member of Team #3, the Louisiana team for the House Select Committee on Assassinations, and a long-time homicide detective with the New Orleans police department. L. J. believes firmly in the statements Thomas Edward Beckham made first to him and to Jonathan Blackmer and Robert Buras, and then his further statements to me. Here is a witness who is talking AGAINST INTEREST. Here is a witness who is asking for nothing, who refused to speak to Oliver STone's people, who were offering thousands of dollars to people as consultants. Here is a person who refused to speak to Jim Garrison when, as a judge, Garrison approached him in the 1980s. Some of Delsa's views about Beckham are offered in "A Farewell to Justice." Recently, we discussed the issue again. With his long experience with witnesses, Delsa remains certain that Beckham is an important piece of the puzzle regarding the planning, the origins, of the plan to murder President Kennedy. We are now in the process of approaching new witnesses, people never before questioned, to further this research.

On the other hand, the recent furor about Beckham in my book should excite suspicion. I told Beckham on Sunday about Gus Russo's statement that Beckham was peddling a 300 page manuscript about the assassination in the 1970s. "I couldn't write a three word manuscript," he said to me. As you all know, his formal education ended in the third grade. So disinformation is being spread, smoke to confuse, like the recent book with the absurd thesis that Santos Trafficante, Carlos Marcello and Johnny Rosselli, plotted the assassination of President Kennedy, a book that goes on to defame a very decent man, Alberto Fowler.

Beckham is not a well man today, Steve. He has no need to exaggerate or lie.

Jack Martin was not his friend but his handler. Jack Martin was also his enemy, and a man Beckham feared. When I first approached him, he asked, "is Jack Martin alive." L. J. notes, by the way, the very name "Jack Martin," a name so common (like Joe Jones) that it could refer to anyone....but that gets us into the Jack Martin controversy. I'll just add that there is no question in my mind, or in Delsa's, that Jack Martin was a CIA asset in New Orleans. In fact, Guy Banister told Thomas Edward Beckham as much.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

_________________________

Another point comes out of the 'police uniform' thread that looked at the minute men. There is a reference to anti Churchil minute men and their demonstrations. Here the Umbrella mans demonstration comes to mind. This turns out to have been a demonstration based on anti Churchil sentiments that involved umbrella. This was a sore point for Kennedy and the display of the umbrella was a reference to this as an anti Kennedy demonstration. In this instance apparently an isolated individual. (Nevertheless the minutemen connection is of interest.)

Just a small correction John, that would be Chamberlain, not Churchill. Neville Chamberlain's umbrella became a symbol of appeasement to Nazism after his 1938 meeting with Hitler.

[John Dolva]

_________________________

Another point comes out of the 'police uniform' thread that looked at the minute men. There is a reference to anti Churchil minute men and their demonstrations. Here the Umbrella mans demonstration comes to mind. This turns out to have been a demonstration based on anti Churchil sentiments that involved umbrella. This was a sore point for Kennedy and the display of the umbrella was a reference to this as an anti Kennedy demonstration. In this instance apparently an isolated individual. (Nevertheless the minutemen connection is of interest.)

Just a small correction John, that would be Chamberlain, not Churchill. Neville Chamberlain's umbrella became a symbol of appeasement to Nazism after his 1938 meeting with Hitler.

Thank's for the correction Steve.

[David Boylan]

I wanted to explore a few areas, that ostensibly provide new avenues of research within the context of "what we know now, that we didn't know then."

First of the bat is a name that is familiar to some - Warren Caster; He was the District Mgr. for Southwestern Publishing Co in the Texas School Book Depository, he also garnered attention by virtue of the fact that 'he brought a Mauser rifle (30.06) into the Depository (along with a Reminigton single shot rifle) two day's before the assassination, and there is more! At the time of the assassination he was eating lunch at North Texas State University, which oddly enough was also where the universities "Young Peoples Republican Club" had planned to join alongside Edwin Walker in a protest during President Kennedy's (now infamous) motorcade. The protest was called off after the Dallas Police learned of said plan, ostensibly Walker departed on Nov. 21, and neither he nor his 'group' as the Warren Commission referred to it materialized. It would be 'interesting to ascertain' whether there was any possible connection between this 'group' and the individuals who were arrested at Dallas Market Hall (William Lee Cummings, Gene Guinn, and the Joiner family) across from the Trade Mart, where Kennedy would have spoken that day, or even others. Is it true that 'bullets' were found on these individuals?

There are a plethora of other interesting characters, that may need to be looked at in light of what we now know. But I felt this would be a good beginning; Incidentally, Gene Guinn was 'rumored' to have done printing for George Lincoln Rockwell, a well known 'Nazi lover,' whose name glances the pages of Joan Mellen's infamous AFTJ as 'someone' who was associating with Thomas Beckham. But I guess since her book has been 'discredited' that is irrelevant.

George Lincoln Rockwell's name and address are in LHO's address book. Rockwell was also an associate of Banister's and Walker's. Walker's chief aide, Robert Surrey, later became Rockwell's printer and head of the Dallas branch of the American Nazi Party.

[Robert Howard]

I wanted to explore a few areas, that ostensibly provide new avenues of research within the context of "what we know now, that we didn't know then."

First of the bat is a name that is familiar to some - Warren Caster; He was the District Mgr. for Southwestern Publishing Co in the Texas School Book Depository, he also garnered attention by virtue of the fact that 'he brought a Mauser rifle (30.06) into the Depository (along with a Reminigton single shot rifle) two day's before the assassination, and there is more! At the time of the assassination he was eating lunch at North Texas State University, which oddly enough was also where the universities "Young Peoples Republican Club" had planned to join alongside Edwin Walker in a protest during President Kennedy's (now infamous) motorcade. The protest was called off after the Dallas Police learned of said plan, ostensibly Walker departed on Nov. 21, and neither he nor his 'group' as the Warren Commission referred to it materialized. It would be 'interesting to ascertain' whether there was any possible connection between this 'group' and the individuals who were arrested at Dallas Market Hall (William Lee Cummings, Gene Guinn, and the Joiner family) across from the Trade Mart, where Kennedy would have spoken that day, or even others. Is it true that 'bullets' were found on these individuals?

There are a plethora of other interesting characters, that may need to be looked at in light of what we now know. But I felt this would be a good beginning; Incidentally, Gene Guinn was 'rumored' to have done printing for George Lincoln Rockwell, a well known 'Nazi lover,' whose name glances the pages of Joan Mellen's infamous AFTJ as 'someone' who was associating with Thomas Beckham. But I guess since her book has been 'discredited' that is irrelevant.

George Lincoln Rockwell's name and address are in LHO's address book. Rockwell was also an associate of Banister's and Walker's. Walker's chief aide, Robert Surrey, later became Rockwell's printer and head of the Dallas branch of the American Nazi Party.

David, thanks for the input G.L. Rockwell sure seems to fit the category of those who walk 'between the raindrops' doesent he, I was looking at your posts and think you certainly have made your share of contributions to same; In that same spirit I felt that this document deserves attention as well.

From that always interesting 'Russ Holmes Work File'

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...593&relPageId=1

By the way, it would really be good if Gerry Hemming could talk about Mr. Augustinovich, and the FBI's S.A. Robert J. Dwyer memo's circa 1962-63 he wrote about anti-Castro goings on in the Miami area, those Dwyer memos seem to have wound up at the Dept. of Justice because 'Dame Edna' Hoover didn't want anyone to know about them.

Edited December 21, 2005 by Robert Howard

[Duke Lane]

I wanted to explore a few areas, that ostensibly provide new avenues of research within the context of "what we know now, that we didn't know then." ....

First of the bat is a name that is familiar to some - Warren Caster; He was the District Mgr. for Southwestern Publishing Co in the Texas School Book Depository, he also garnered attention by virtue of the fact that 'he brought a Mauser rifle (30.06) into the Depository (along with a Reminigton single shot rifle) two day's before the assassination, and there is more! At the time of the assassination he was eating lunch at North Texas State University, which oddly enough was also where the universities "Young Peoples Republican Club" had planned to join alongside Edwin Walker in a protest during President Kennedy's (now infamous) motorcade. The protest was called off after the Dallas Police learned of said plan, ostensibly Walker departed on Nov. 21, and neither he nor his 'group' as the Warren Commission referred to it materialized. It would be 'interesting to ascertain' whether there was any possible connection between this 'group' and the individuals who were arrested at Dallas Market Hall (William Lee Cummings, Gene Guinn, and the Joiner family) across from the Trade Mart, where Kennedy would have spoken that day, or even others. Is it true that 'bullets' were found on these individuals? ....

The people arrested at the Trade Mart (charged initially with "Investigation Conspiracy to Commit a Felony: To Wit Murder" and later downgraded to Trespassing) were:

William Lee Cummings, age 17, 2502 Waldron Dr;

Gary Dwayne Joiner, 2502 Waldrum, age 17;

Bobby Savelle Joiner, 1725 Armstead, Grand Prairie, age 34;

Gene Audra Guinn, 636 Lacwood, age 31;

Roy Eugene Joiner, 2413 Christopher, Grand Prairie, age 17.

The story behind the incident is that one man, not specified or named, was selling placards that read "Hurray for President Kennedy." Since he was selling these placards on the (private) Trade Mart property, he was asked to remove himself to public property across Industrial Boulevard, which he did.

At about the same time, two men showed up on the property carrying anti-Kennedy placards. They too were advised that they were on private property (the manager of the Trade Mart stated his objection to their being there) and if they didn't leave, they would be trespassing. They, too, went across the street.

After the news of the shooting, the latter two men and three others got into an argument with "spectators across the street." I don't know if that means "across the street from the Trade Mart," or "across the street from where they were" (i.e., back on Trade Mart property), but since it was a two-versus-three situation, my bet would be that it was Cummings and Guinn with the placards getting into an argument with the Joiners "across the street."

Given the identical ages of the Joiner boys and the different addresses, my guess would be that they were cousins, not brothers. Bobby Joiner, twice their age, was either an uncle or older cousin to the other two, or possibly the father to one not living with his family.

Hope this helps.

(Source: HSCA rec no 180-10107-10137, file no 003019, "Chronological report of events. Box 71." Opened in full 05/18/93, 35 pp, page 18. The order of the names is as it appears in the report.)

[James Richards]

After the news of the shooting, the latter two men and three others got into an argument with "spectators across the street." I don't know if that means "across the street from the Trade Mart," or "across the street from where they were" (i.e., back on Trade Mart property), but since it was a two-versus-three situation, my bet would be that it was Cummings and Guinn with the placards getting into an argument with the Joiners "across the street." (Duke Lane)

William Lee Cummings was Ed Joiner's son.

Bobby Joiner was a real piece of work. In 1964, he was charged with aggravated assault after shooting a teenage boy in the back several times with a pellet gun. The boy was employed to stack bottles in Joiner's grocery store in exchange for ice-cream.

One of the pellets penetrated an inch into his back.

James

[Steve Thomas]

Duke,

Given the identical ages of the Joiner boys and the different addresses, my guess would be that they were cousins, not brothers. Bobby Joiner, twice their age, was either an uncle or older cousin to the other two, or possibly the father to one not living with his family.

See CD 1179 Beginning on page 133 for info on the lineage of the Joiner family and Uncle Bobbie trying to get nephew Roy to shoot the President.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=143

On June 8, 1964 Bobbie Joiner was interviewed by the FBI in Grand Prairie. In this interview, he talks about renting an “Uncle Sam” suit for the upcoming visit by Adlai Stevenson in October.:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=152

I once ran across a reference to a person seen in the Dallas Police Headquarters on 11/22/63 wearing an “Uncle Sam” suit, but I haven’t been able to find it again. I suspect that it was Bobbie Joiner.

You might also be interested in the mimeographed sheet done up by Glover Bee Bellah here:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...mp;relPageId=55

In his FBI interview, he said that he had handed out a few of these sheets to people in Grand Prairie and that the only person he knew who had similar ideas was Bob Joiner.

He said he had discussed the questions in the sheet with Joiner.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...mp;relPageId=60

Steve Thomas