How many shots?

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Rather than count the sound of gunfire,which can easily be redered almost noiseless by a silencer, and a flash suppressor, lets take a look at the number of objects reportedly struck in D/P. thanks to total truth sciences.

1, First shot hits the street behind the motorcade, sending up a shower of sparks.

2, Hits the curb near the railway overpass. (James tague)

3, Strikes a manhole cover, and lodges in the grass. Police stand guard over the site, and an unknown man removes the projectile hidden in his pocket. (This is reported in a newspaper the next day, but denied by Gov officials)

4, Strikes JFK in the back, approx 4 ins down from the nape of the neck.

5, A shot from the front strikes JFK in the throat.

6, Strikes the limo windshield, penetrating the glass, witnessed by two D/P officers, Serg Stavis Ellis, and patrolman H R freeman. According to Ellis it was not just chipped glass he witnessed at Parkland "You could put a pencil though it" he said later.

7,Strikes the freeway sign on Elm. This sign, apparantly, quickly disappears

8, Strikes Gov John Connelly from behind, causing all his wounds.

9, The fatal shot to the head of JFK.. and quite possibly the Republic.

Anyone agree/ disagree.. More shots, or less.. I think the key lies in the physical objects struck, rather than the ( possibly deliberately) disorientating sound of gunfire...

[Jack White]

TWO shots to JFK head plus ONE to throat and ONE to back.

TWO shots hit Connally, one in chest, one thru wrist to thigh.

One bullet furrow in grass.

One bullet in chrome strip.

Jack

[Lee Forman]

Hi Stephen!

I did a range a few times - they are buried here in the forum somewhere. I came up with between 9 to 14. The problem I had was trying to determine which shots may have been related [eg: clip to Stemmons sign and throat wound, or occiput and chrome dent, etc.].

Jack caught two that I was going to add [chrome and furrows] - but there are still questions over a few of the other ones.

For example - how many shots hit Elm street? There are multiple witnesses to shots striking Elm - are they all witnesses to the same round? There is the .45 that allegedly glanced off the fender of one of the motorcops bikes, for instance. Same one?

Did any shots hit the Lincoln [body of the car]? I read someplace that there was, only to be stuck for a reference when questioned on it.

'Through and through hole' in the windshield - but what of the crack and the rearview mirror?

Gary Mack indicated that the striation in the concrete of the sidewalk on the north side of Elm pre-existed the assassination.

The key one of interest to me is the one that struck the curb in front of Jean Hill and Mary Moorman. You can read about this in Hill's Warren testimony - also it was noted on the original surveyor's map - Tom Purvis did a thread about this one I believe.

Mrs. HILL - Then, he asked me I was asked did I know that a bullet struck at my feet and I said, "No; I didn't." And he said, "What do you think that dust was?" And I said, "I didn't see any dust." And I told Mark Lane that the Times Herald did run a picture in the paper of a concrete scar where a bullet had hit right where we were standing, which is evident to anybody that had an issue of the Times Herald.

Mr. SPECTER - Did you see that concrete?

Mrs. HILL - I didn't go back down there.

Mr. SPECTER - Do you know whether or not a bullet did hit that concrete?

Mrs. HILL - As I say, I saw the picture in the newspaper.

She appears to have confused the shot that struck the concrete near the manhole cover for the shot that struck the curb where they were standing. The concrete by the manhole cover is ~100 feet further down Elm towards the underpass. Someone correct me if I am wrong - I believe that is the photo that was published in the newspaper.

Anyway - it's an interesting exercise - I was just thinking the other day about what Hoover didn't say to Johnson - that Oswald was using specially made 'boomerang' rounds - which is why Connally would have blocked a shot at Kennedy, causing him to be hit in the chest from the shot fired from the 5th floor east window of the TSBD as it was making it's return.

On a serious note, as stated before, the silencer was invented in 1909.

[Adam Wilkinson]

I have reports of the following:

Barbee Specimen: Found embedded in the roof of a building located at 1615 Stemmons Freeway by William Barbee in 1966. The building, about 1/4 a mile away from the TSBD was in the line of fire from the sixth floor window. It was handed over to the FBI where they determined the bullet to be a .30 calibre full metal jacketed military bullet.

This bullet is consistent with that which could be shot from the CIA's silenced M-1 .30 calibre carbine.

Lester Specimen: A bullet fragment found in Dealey Plaza by Richard Lester in 1974. Its precise location was reported to be 500 yards from the TSBD and 61 paces east of the triple overpass abutment. It was handed over to the FBI, the FBI concluded that the fragment, which consisted of the base portion of a bullet and weighed 52.7 grains, was consistent with the diameter of a 6.5mm bullet. It was also determined that the fragment came from a metal jacketed soft point or hollow point sporting bullet. The rifling characteristics did not match those of a Mannlicher-Carcano.

[Ron Ecker]

There is no evidence that a bullet hit the Stemmons sign, and the sign did not quickly disappear (as it might have done if there were indeed bullet damage). The sign was still there at the time of the WC reenactment. The sign was removed at some point in time after that.

[James Richards]

There is no evidence that a bullet hit the Stemmons sign, and the sign did not quickly disappear (as it might have done if there were indeed bullet damage). The sign was still there at the time of the WC reenactment. The sign was removed at some point in time after that.

This is the best image of the Stemmons sign I could find post assassination. I remember reading somewhere that the bit which was allegedly struck was in fact the lower 'Texas 77' section. I can't find that reference for now.

FWIW.

James

[Duke Lane]

Rather than count the sound of gunfire,which can easily be redered almost noiseless by a silencer, and a flash suppressor, lets take a look at the number of objects reportedly struck in D/P. thanks to total truth sciences.

1, First shot hits the street behind the motorcade, sending up a shower of sparks.

2, Hits the curb near the railway overpass. (James tague)

3, Strikes a manhole cover, and lodges in the grass. Police stand guard over the site, and an unknown man removes the projectile hidden in his pocket. (This is reported in a newspaper the next day, but denied by Gov officials)....

... or obfuscated by echoes!

Here's an semi-educated (semi-literate?) guess based upon a curious question and an even more curious response: these are the three shots that came from the 6th floor southeast window. Lee Oswald was not the shooter ....

[Tim Carroll]

1, First shot hits the street behind the motorcade, sending up a shower of sparks.

2, Hits the curb near the railway overpass. (James tague)

3, Strikes a manhole cover, and lodges in the grass.

... or obfuscated by echoes! Here's an semi-educated (semi-literate?) guess based upon a curious question and an even more curious response: these are the three shots that came from the 6th floor southeast window. Lee Oswald was not the shooter ....

I believe that a highly possible scenario is that the Carcano was fired from the SE window as a sight and sound decoy, as part of what some may have considered an Operation Northwoods action to stage a Castro assassination attempt.

Tim

Edited December 29, 2005 by Tim Carroll

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Rather than count the sound of gunfire,which can easily be redered almost noiseless by a silencer, and a flash suppressor, lets take a look at the number of objects reportedly struck in D/P. thanks to total truth sciences.

1, First shot hits the street behind the motorcade, sending up a shower of sparks.

2, Hits the curb near the railway overpass. (James tague)

3, Strikes a manhole cover, and lodges in the grass. Police stand guard over the site, and an unknown man removes the projectile hidden in his pocket. (This is reported in a newspaper the next day, but denied by Gov officials)....

... or obfuscated by echoes!

Here's an semi-educated (semi-literate?) guess based upon a curious question and an even more curious response: these are the three shots that came from the 6th floor southeast window. Lee Oswald was not the shooter ....

Duke, interesting. So the first three shots eminate from the sixth floor, lets further speculate that these were all decoy shots, never intended to strike Kennedy, but rather to confuse potential witnesses, and place the shooter in the TSBD, and so to the patsy. Do you believe that these shots came from the bolt action carcano, or some other rifle? Of the remaining six shots 4, to 5 hit JFK, and Connelly the other/others miss. Three further shots from behind? and three from the front? from silenced rifles. Of course some of these could have been fired during the three shots from the depository, further confusing bystanders/witnesses, and on side Secret Service personel.

[Mark Johansson]

This is not in order but according to me a possible scenario.

Mark

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Mark, just for claritys sake, how many gunman are you postulating in this scenario.. regards Steve.

[John Dolva]

Steve, I haven't completed looking at any of this, but the bits I've looked at have led to a few ideas.

noise like firecrackers to kick things off, it startles and introduces the aural 'blindness' described elsewhere.

a low trajectory shot through Kennedy's neck hitting the dash. (daltex)

a high trajectory causing Connally's wounds. (upperfloors tsbd)

a flurry at z313+, double tap to head, and 1+ misses causing furrows. this is from Carrs position, Harry/Price or the south knoll.

at the same time as:

a loud noise from the knoll by a gunpowder cracker, possibly with other decoys like people, flash and a lungful of cigarette smoke for effect. (This one is essential to kickstart the conspiracy merry go round.)

________________

I'd like to see a comprehensive critical analysis of the reported Tague shot. It's fundamental to many and seems not to have been questioned, so I do.

Edited December 29, 2005 by John Dolva

[Tim Carroll]

This is not in order but according to me a possible scenario.

Sequencing the hypothetical Badge Man's shot as being prior to the headshot(s) is a logical inconsistency (therefore impossible). If one believes in Badge Man at all, it is based upon the image some see in the Moorman photo (Zf-316), in which a shooter wearing a police uniform is supposedly seen at the moment of muzzle flash, a fraction of a second after the headshot(s).

Mark, just for claritys sake, how many gunman are you postulating in this scenario.. regards Steve.

Tim

[Mark Johansson]

This is not in order but according to me a possible scenario.

Sequencing the hypothetical Badge Man's shot as being prior to the headshot(s) is a logical inconsistency (therefore impossible). If one believes in Badge Man at all, it is based upon the image some see in the Moorman photo (Zf-316), in which a shooter wearing a police uniform is supposedly seen at the moment of muzzle flash, a fraction of a second after the headshot(s).

Mark, just for claritys sake, how many gunman are you postulating in this scenario.. regards Steve.

Tim

Tim,

Did you see what I wrote?

"This is not in order but according to me a possible scenario."

Stephen,

I believe there were 7 shooters.

TSBD = 2 shooters

Grassy knoll = 2 shooters (James Files and maybe badgeman if he exists)

Dal-Tex Building = 1 shooter

At the pergola or behind the pergola = 1 shooter

Record County building = 1 shooter

Mark

Edited December 30, 2005 by Mark Johansson

[Guest Stephen Turner]

This is not in order but according to me a possible scenario.

Sequencing the hypothetical Badge Man's shot as being prior to the headshot(s) is a logical inconsistency (therefore impossible). If one believes in Badge Man at all, it is based upon the image some see in the Moorman photo (Zf-316), in which a shooter wearing a police uniform is supposedly seen at the moment of muzzle flash, a fraction of a second after the headshot(s).

Mark, just for claritys sake, how many gunman are you postulating in this scenario.. regards Steve.

Tim

Tim,

Did you see what I wrote?

"This is not in order but according to me a possible scenario."

Stephen,

I believe there were 7 shooters.

TSBD = 2 shooters

Grassy knoll = 2 shooters (James Files and maybe badgeman if he exists)

Dal-Tex Building = 1 shooter

At the pergola or behind the pergola = 1 shooter

Record County building = 1 shooter

Mark

Hi Mark, thanks. Thats a pretty top heavy crew of assassins in my opinion, each shooter requires a "spotter"for radio comunication, and to watch the shooters back whilst he is sighting the target, that means 14 men, with rifles and walkie-talkies to get in and out of D/P. i believe three higly trained marksmen, correctly placed, and three spotters would have been equal to the task, even allowing one shooter to deliberately miss his three shots, given a ground crew to clear incriminating debris from the Plaza on the spot. I would place two behind, TSBD, and Dal Tex, and one in front, probably South Knoll. regards, Steve.