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A Southwestern Intel. rival of the CIA?


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Reviewing some of Peter Dale Scott's Deep Politics, and making use of the outstanding Index feature (see top 3 postings of the Forum) I have come up with a line of associated concepts that could hopefully be clarified or rejected by more experienced researchers.

Was there a distinct and functional Intelligence network that could be counted on to do the work of the Suite 8F group? This group might be made up of the following ingredients:

1) Old China Lobby people who thought the CIA was too "liberal, multinationalist" during the early 1950s

2) A jealous J. Edgar Hoover who was resentfull of Dulles for getting control of foreign intel after WWII,

when Hoover wanted it for the FBI

3). Independent Oil resentful of Gov. oil regulation and the liberal approach to foreign policy.

4.) Sectors of the Defense industry who saw a more aggressive unilatteralism as a recipie for

yummy land wars and a world based on trading blocks rather than World Bankishness.

5.) The Southern Caucus of the U.S. Senate, who could often work with independent oil interests and

rar rightists in exchange for their help in preserving the Jim Crow South.

6.) Various military intel officers, symapthetic to unilatteralism, such as MaCarthur's far right hand man

Maj. Gen. Charles Willoughby?

I was particularly intrigued by Johns comment on the Fensterwald thread that Nixon may have been trying to implicate the CIA in Watergate, so as to get them helping in the coverup, as they did in the JFK assasination.

Scott suggests that, although this Independent Group may have been independent of the CIA, they had connections to it, (a faction?)

If we think it is usefull to think of this Southwestern Independent Intel Network, as a rival of the CIA, but also as having connections to it, THEN WHAT DO WE MAKE OF THE FOLLOWING INDIVIDUALS who seem to crop up at the intersection of this model? e.g. what was thier role in mediating, doublecrossing, deception,

that tok place at this intersection.

1. Richard Nixon-- Here was a citizen, who it would seem started out closer to Hoover than the CIA. Yet by

1972, he must have sounded frightfully multilatteralist to anything in Cowboy boots.

2. John J. McCloy-- if what I have just described really are 'two camps' chances are this guy had a foot in

each.

3. Robert Maheu--

4. William Pawley-- Scott describes these latter two as having pre-Kennedy ties to Nixon in convincing the

the CIA to link with the mafia against Castro. Might this allince have been continued by

the Western Intel, group after the main branch of the CIA had moved on to other things

in 1963? Later their connections to the CIA could have motivated compleet Agency

assistence in coverup.

5. I. Irving Davidson-- friend to Marcello who had a a stake in the more agressive unilatteralist approch to

Latin America. He also lobbied on behalf of the CIa on capital Hill.

6. Angleton-- as the CIA person closest to Hoover, and most suspicious of Multilatteralism in the CIA as the

as the result of KGB infiltration, could he have been a key player at this intersection? Did he

take papers from Win Scotts office after the Scotts death that showed that aspects of the

Southwestern intelligence groups New Orleans machinations with Oswald had not

been conveyed to Scott, and hence Langley before the assasination?

(How) Does this this model of two rival but connected intelligence networks help answer the question of

a) How was the Special Group supervised by Bobby Kennedy in 1963 was turned?

:lol: David Phillips role in dividing the CIA about what they knew re: Oswald in mexico City. Was Phillips

a point of intersection between this western group and the CIA?

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Nathaniel, since you are a teacher I suggest you learn how to spell unilateral. (Only one "t".)

_________________________________

Thanks, Gratz.

At least it gets your name on the front page of the "Tim Gratz's JFK Assassination Debate Website" one more time, huh? Would you have corrected Nathaniel's spelling if GPH hadn't corrected yours recently on the 'How does Ruby work in a Castro-did-it scenario' thread? Kinda like when you have a "bad day at the office" and go home and "kick the dog?" Why now, all of a sudden?

If I'd corrected all of the misspelled words and bad grammar etc, etc that I'd seen on this website since I joined in September, I'd have nearly as many posts by now as you've got. And that's one hell of a lot.

_________________________________

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Thomas, perhaps you are not astute enough to realize that I think that many of Nathaniel's positions are not well-reasoned. Sometimes (not always) I find a correlation between sloppy spelling and sloppy reasoning.

And by the way I had been spelling Trescornia the way I had seen it spelled many many times. I should have realized that Gerry, who spent significant time in Cuba, had it right.

I do not recall, by the way, the last time you posted a comment of any substance.

You wrote:

If I'd corrected all of the misspelled words and bad grammar etc, etc that I'd seen on this website since I joined in September, I'd have nearly as many posts by now as you've got. And that's one hell of a lot.

You have raised a good point, Thomas. Why do you suppose there are so many misspellings and so many examples of improper grammar?

Edited by Tim Gratz
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My question to Mr. Gratz is: Tim, do you have anything OF SUBSTANCE to either add to or to debunk the speculation that Mr. Heidenheimer has put forth on this thread? [it's a RHETORICAL question, Tim, and doesn't require a reply.] Typographical errors occur, even in newspapers that have editors. So let's agree to discuss the substance of the post, shall we?

I believe that what Nathaniel proposes is plausible...but there are Forum members more knowledgeable tham I on these individuals, so I welcome their comments.

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  • 2 weeks later...

"Was there a distinct and functional Intelligence network"in the south?

(In a hope that the above posts will not be perpetuated, added to)

From another angle I think there may have been such a network that existed separately in the south set up to deal with southern interests.

In late 1940's to deal with a major attack on segregation Mississippi passed an act to form a Mississippi Bureau of Investigation, desribed as a 'secret government agency'. It was funded for a short period, then appeared to 'disappear' however the act that created was not changed. Then in the early 60's there was speculation that the MBI it was still active. (Birdsong) I suspect (and at this point it is specualtion), that the Mississippi Sovereignty commisssion was a more public variant. It liased and coordinated closely with sovereignty commissions in NO and Florida and probably others as well. At some point Alabama started such a commisssion.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Nathaniel. Over time I'm noting the existence of a 'south centered' network that could possibly contribute to this idea.

Firstly there was the MBI or Mississippi Bureau of Intelligence. This secret government agency was set up by the passage of an act and an initial funding of 100,000 in 1947 as a response to some civil rights actions. Apparently the funding stopped but the act remained. Later in the early 60's obeservers speculated it was still active.

A number of the southern states had Sovereignty Commissions or 'Commissions to uphold the peace'. They employed its own agents as well as private agencies. The chief investigators in the late 50's and early 60's was an ex assistant to JEH. Other ex FBI agents were employed on its staff, and privately, for example Bannister.

These commissions received donations from private individuals as well as from businesses.

As well so far I've come across

at least one instance of a comprehesive report made to Dulles.

two instances of sharing with members of the presidential detail.

while there is plenty of indications of interactions with the FBI, it seems to be covert, while overtly during the civil rights era they actively withheld information from out of state FBI.

It seems to me that the FBI acted as both a government body and independently.

___________________

a number of other organisations and individuals contributed to the gathering and sharing of intelligence within the south.

John Birch Society, law enforcement such as Highway patrol, and the latest I've come across is a reference to the KBI or the Klan Bureau of Investigation.

So, I wonder if these could be regarded as a separately identifiable south centered network, with established connections to the CIA and the FBI, of a nature as theorised by your post?

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  • 1 month later...

The group of people mentioned in the following documents and the links to further pages form a core group of representatives of southern intelligence agencies.

the first meeting was held in june 61, when the 'Southern States Investigators Association' was formed.

http://www.mdah.state.ms.us/arlib/contents...30|1|1|1|68064|

http://www.mdah.state.ms.us/arlib/contents...3|1|1|1|22841|A

http://www.mdah.state.ms.us/arlib/contents...2|1|1|1|15082|A

related

________________

http://www.mdah.state.ms.us/arlib/contents...|4|1|1|1|67872|

http://www.mdah.state.ms.us/arlib/contents...31|1|1|1|15697|

http://www.mdah.state.ms.us/arlib/contents...29|1|1|1|15678|

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  • 1 year later...
The group of people mentioned in the following documents and the links to further pages form a core group of representatives of southern intelligence agencies.

the first meeting was held in june 61, when the 'Southern States Investigators Association' was formed.

http://www.mdah.state.ms.us/arlib/contents...30|1|1|1|68064|

http://www.mdah.state.ms.us/arlib/contents...3|1|1|1|22841|A

http://www.mdah.state.ms.us/arlib/contents...2|1|1|1|15082|A

related

________________

http://www.mdah.state.ms.us/arlib/contents...|4|1|1|1|67872|

http://www.mdah.state.ms.us/arlib/contents...31|1|1|1|15697|

http://www.mdah.state.ms.us/arlib/contents...29|1|1|1|15678|

Topical Bump

Over time, since this thread, it seems that there was what one can call a unified 'Southern Intelligence Network' with FBI elements, ex FBI plants in various organisations like the various southern State Sovereignty Commissions, and various government bodies like Highway patrol, plus a number of civilian bodies like the white Citizen Councils, private Detective agencies like Guy Bannister's*, and others within other groupings like the Klan (KBI) and other persons like in the Post Office and the Military etc etc etc that together shared information.

For example there are documents that indicate that JBS heads could write to the MSC and get Military records from Military Personell on individuals. Also there seems there was a source in the Florida airports that provided info and also that in turn the MSC provided info to Dulles, and also a Post Office employee passing info back and forth between the presidents security detail and the MSC.

If one goes back to the Civil War surrender one finds that captured with Davis was his most able Cabinet member, the Confederate Post Master General, who, after some time in Jail, was rehabilitated. At the beginning of the Civil War he, when forming the Confederate PO department, took into his employ members of the pre Civil War Postal Service.

My suggestion, for which I have no supporting evidence, merely a speculation, which, given the secrecy of various organisations that formed such as the "Invisible Empire" KKK, is that elements in the south, after the re-establishment of the Union and through the reconstruction, remained loyal to the Confederate cause. Thus there is much scope for 'non existent' departments within departments with their own agenda and loyalty.

* there are dccuments indicating that before Guy died he may have been employed by the MSC through N.O. persons recommendation.

Edited by John Dolva
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The group of people mentioned in the following documents and the links to further pages form a core group of representatives of southern intelligence agencies.

the first meeting was held in june 61, when the 'Southern States Investigators Association' was formed.

http://www.mdah.state.ms.us/arlib/contents...30|1|1|1|68064|

http://www.mdah.state.ms.us/arlib/contents...3|1|1|1|22841|A

http://www.mdah.state.ms.us/arlib/contents...2|1|1|1|15082|A

related

________________

http://www.mdah.state.ms.us/arlib/contents...|4|1|1|1|67872|

http://www.mdah.state.ms.us/arlib/contents...31|1|1|1|15697|

http://www.mdah.state.ms.us/arlib/contents...29|1|1|1|15678|

Topical Bump

Over time, since this thread, it seems that there was what one can call a unified 'Southern Intelligence Network' with FBI elements, ex FBI plants in various organisations like the various southern State Sovereignty Commissions, and various government bodies like Highway patrol, plus a number of civilian bodies like the white Citizen Councils, private Detective agencies like Guy Bannister's*, and others within other groupings like the Klan (KBI) and other persons like in the Post Office and the Military etc etc etc that together shared information.

For example there are documents that indicate that JBS heads could write to the MSC and get Military records from Military Personell on individuals. Also there seems there was a source in the Florida airports that provided info and also that in turn the MSC provided info to Dulles, and also a Post Office employee passing info back and forth between the presidents security detail and the MSC.

If one goes back to the Civil War surrender one finds that captured with Davis was his most able Cabinet member, the Confederate Post Master General, who, after some time in Jail, was rehabilitated. At the beginning of the Civil War he, when forming the Confederate PO department, took into his employ members of the pre Civil War Postal Service.

My suggestion, for which I have no supporting evidence, merely a speculation, which, given the secrecy of various organisations that formed such as the "Invisible Empire" KKK, is that elements in the south, after the re-establishment of the Union and through the reconstruction, remained loyal to the Confederate cause. Thus there is much scope for 'non existent' departments within departments with their own agenda and loyalty.

* there are dccuments indicating that before Guy died he may have been employed by the MSC through N.O. persons recommendation.

though I don't view the existance of such units with the horror that I'm sure many here do, remember every major PD and State had "Red Squads". I got to be friends with a guy who did alot of wire tap work for these units in MI and it became obvious there was a "ratline" that existed among all these seperate groups.

also, I wonder why the DIA hasn't gotten a harder look in the JFK murder.

Edited by Evan Marshall
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  • 4 years later...

bump

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