Michael Collins Piper: Final Judgement

[Jeff Dahlstrom]

Len,

My post #94 addresses your question in which I urged all participants in this thread to be honest, open minded, and willing to consider the possibilty that Piper may be right about Mossad/Israeli involvement in JFK's murder. There is a post in this thread that discusses one library's being barred from ordering copies of "Final Judgement" due to objections from the ADL, but Mr. Piper himself may be able to address the question of why his book is so difficult to find in America.

As for Zionist control of American foreign policies in the Middle East, I would recommend "Neoconned" and "Neoconned, Again" which are collections of articles from very reputable researchers including some authors that are retired from the CIA and responsible military services. You might also look at Mr. Piper's "High Priests of War". My question and suggestion for Len, Tim, and the others that are so upset about hearing the comments from an author like Mr. Piper is to obtain for yourselves a copy of this book and read what he says so you can more intelligently respond to the author's evidence.

The Neoconservatives that have hijacked the Republican party have aligned themselves with the motives and policy directives of Israel from my perspective. Their policy objectives and position papers were written for Benjamin Netanyehu. The Project for a New American Century (PNAC) was advocating war in the Middle East since early in the 1990's and includes Bill Kristol, Richard Perle, Don Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, Scooter Libby, Jeb Bush and a large cast of like minded characters in control of our policies and on the Boards of Directors of our major defense contractors.

The question is why does the United States provide Israel $5-$6 Billion in aid and weapon systems (including nuclear weapons that are considered "safe for civilians") and now we consider witholding $250 Million for the Palestinians when Hamas wins a democratic election in their country or territory? Who knows how many private donations are raised in the US for Israel, and why do we have dual citizenship status with Israel and not with any Arab countries? Terrorism is coming from both sides of this Arab-Israeli question and it seems to me that we have a double standard here in America towards the Middle East.

When I studied the Middle East at Stanford, my primary professor was Christina Harris, a Deputy Secretary in the State Department when Israel was recognized by the US, and another that was the curator of the Middle East collection at the Hoover Intitute of War Revolution and Peace. The hysteria in this thread about anti-semitism was not the issues we considered. The issues were to find compromises that would allow two different religions (plus Christians) to live side by side and stop the violence and terrorism from both sides. At that time (class of '68), we were not waging pre-emptive war in East Asia and sabre rattling with pending nuclear attacks on Iran to control oil and shipping lanes.

Again, I have not read Mr. Piper's book and would recommend that all members of this Forum posting their comments here, obtain a current copy (Sixth Edition) to discuss with the author when he is able to address all concerns of this discussion. Drop the labels and consider the thesis and evidence presented. I know for some, that is a tall order. As far as I have been able to determine, the assassination of JFK is still not a solved crime, and it is far from clear to me why a "banned book" on the subject should be discounted for reasons unrelated to it's merits.

Jeff D.

[Mark Stapleton]

Mark, I speak for myself. This is my position. I am under no delusions about myself having any more rights than yourself, or anyone else.

It's entirely up to any society or group to adopt a policy as suits them.

My position on holocaust denial is that it is special case, to which the answer must be unambiguous. I give you permission to take that or leave it as you wish. In fact, while I'm at it, I'll extend that right to all.

In this case 'relates to thread'? Hmm...I responded to the idea of whether such a person should be given voice on the forum with my opinion, which is no. It is not a statement about whether a proponent of Mossad involvement should have voice.

John,

Thanks for the clarification. At least now I'm clear about what you were talking about.

I respect your position about the holocaust being a special case. However, I don't agree that the natural extension of this argument is that anyone denying that this tragic event occured should be silenced on all other issues. Piper has written a book about the assassination which may shed light on this seemingly bottomless controversy. His possible myopia concerning the holocaust may be deeply disturbing to some who rightly believe that such theories are a distortion of history and their place in it.

To add to this dilemma, Piper believes that the assassination may have been carried out, in part at least, by the nation which grew out of many of the survivors of the holocaust. Because of the intensity of feeling involved, there are bound to be clashes from the outset, providing Piper's application is accepted, of course.

Piper will be bombarded with questions. He might have to give up his day job. He might not stay long, but I think his theory should be debated on its merits.

John - You are skirting the most important questions and issues to have come up in this thread, as moderator of this forum you really should address them.

What is happening with Piper? My position is that you shouldn't invite him to join if you haven't done so already but accept him as a member if he requests it.

I have not invited Piper to join the Forum. However, he did request to join the Forum at 21:18 on 10th Feb 2006. As it is not our policy to reject proposed members because Tim Gratz disapproves of them, his application to join is currently being processed.

That's good news, John. I hope the debate doesn't get too nasty.

[John Dolva]

No worries Mark, I agree with you about 'I don't agree that the natural extension of this argument is that anyone denying that this tragic event occured should be silenced on all other issues'.

However, a position that does not affirm in any way, is seen to not affirm, such views by any grouping does not silence Piper. He has a voice, and an audience.

Nazism is not an ideology in need of affirmative action. For any reason. IMO.

There seem to be a number of individuals here up to speed on his assassination theories. Through them he has a voice here.

[Len Colby]

Jeff,

Neither your post above nor #94 addressed my questions to you. In Post # 46 you referred “the Zionist/Neoconservatives controlling our current government.” You didn’t limit this to US foreign policy these are very different statements. Coincidentally or not this is the party line of the neo-Fascist Nazi/Klan friendly ultra-right such as Piper and his “newspaper” the American Free Press.

They also blame most cultural ills on Jews and believe the Holocaust was a hoax and believe the Zionists want to take over the World. Do they represent your views? A simple yes or no will suffice.

You still have to offer evidence of your assertion that the “Israel lobby” has kept the book out of bookstores and that it can not be found in any library. If there was a post about it being kept out of a single library I don’t remember reading it.

As for me buying the book, as the descendant of a Holocaust victim I do not want to give my money to neo-Nazi Holocaust deniers. If he or any of his Hitler worshiping friends want to send me a copy I’ll read it when I find the time. Why do you make such a point of pushing people to buy it?

I believe that an author’s prejudice directly relates to a books merits. Ideally a researcher can be objective, not that he doesn’t have a POV but that 1) that the POV not be based on prejudice and 2) he can be impartial enough that he does filter out information that is contrary to such prejudiced beliefs. His colleagues* start with a thesis and work backwards to find supporting evidence. His thesis is basically ‘the Jews killed JFK, RFK and MLK jr and were responsible for Watergate, Monicagate, and the pedophile priests scandal’. Did his thesis lead him to the facts, or did the facts lead him to his thesis, I suspect the former is the case. His disingenuousity about his views makes me doubt he is intellectually honest.

Will I give him a ‘fair hearing’? Well I won’t pretend to like him and will ask him some rather pointed questions and if he or anybody else doesn’t like it that’s their problem. I will try to judge what he has to say impartially though. I suspect he won’t do very well he as he will have to debate his views with people very well versed on the subject.

*As far as I can tell he has always written for “Revisionist” publications and publishing houses run by Willis Carto like the Institute for Historical Review, the Barnes Review, the Spotlight and the American Free Press

[Ron Ecker]

The Neoconservatives that have hijacked the Republican party have aligned themselves with the motives and policy directives of Israel from my perspective. Their policy objectives and position papers were written for Benjamin Netanyehu. The Project for a New American Century (PNAC) was advocating war in the Middle East since early in the 1990's and includes Bill Kristol, Richard Perle, Don Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, Scooter Libby, Jeb Bush and a large cast of like minded characters in control of our policies and on the Boards of Directors of our major defense contractors.

One name you didn't mention is Dov S. Zakheim. An ordained rabbi with dual Israeli-U.S. citizenship, Zakheim was the Comptroller and Chief Financial Officer for the U.S. Department of Defense from May 2001 to April 2004.

Before his financial tenure at the Pentagon (which of course spanned 9/11, as well as the Pentagon's failure reported in 2003 to account for 1 trillion dollars), Zakheim was corporate vice president of System Planning Corporation (SPC), a firm that builds a remote control system for drone aircraft, for use as targets in wargames or other such purposes as remotely controlled aircraft might serve.

[Jeff Dahlstrom]

Jeff,

Neither your post above nor #94 addressed my questions to you. In Post # 46 you referred “the Zionist/Neoconservatives controlling our current government.” You didn’t limit this to US foreign policy these are very different statements. Coincidentally or not this is the party line of the neo-Fascist Nazi/Klan friendly ultra-right such as Piper and his “newspaper” the American Free Press.

Len,

In those two previous posts I was suggesting that it would be better to tone down the inflammatory and hateful rhetoric concerning the possibility that there might be Israeli/Mossad complicity in the JFK assassination. I empathize with your pain of having your ancestors slaughtered in the holocost. Loss of innocent lives is atrocious and I don't have a dog in your fight about holocost deniers. When I got out of the USAF I toured Europe and visited the concentration camps at Dacchau and Auschwitz. It was abhorent to me as a concerned human being that the cruelty and horror took place under Hitlers regime in these death camps during WW II.

My words in response to your question are not important as to yes or no to your attempt to label me as a bigoted and prejudiced monster your statement. You are attributing that view to the wrong persons in this thread when you say it is the party line of the neo-Fascist Nazi/Klan friendly ultra-right such as Piper and his "newspaper" the American Free Press.

Consider the following quote: “I want to tell you something very clear, don’t worry about American pressure on Israel, we, the Jewish people control America, and the Americans know it.”

—Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to cabinet member Shimon Peres, October 3rd, 2001, as reported on Kol Y’Israel radio.

Here is another from Mr. Sharon: “We are Judeo-Nazis, and why not? If your nice, civilized parents, rather than writing books about their love for humanity had instead come to Israel and killed six million Arabs, what would have happened? Sure, two or three nasty pages would have been written in the history books, and we would have been called all sorts of names, but we would be here today as a people of 25 million! What you don’t seem to understand is that the dirty work of Zionism is not finished yet, far from it.”

—Ariel Sharon, 1982

Here is the view of a US Senator: “Israel controls the United States Senate. Around 80 percent are completely in support of Israel; anything Israel wants it gets. Jewish influence in the House of Representatives is even greater.”

- United States Senator William Fulbright

And a US Congressman has this to say on the topic of this Forum: “It is interesting, but not surprising, to note that in all the words written and uttered about the Kennedy assassination, Israel’s intelligence service agency, the Mossad, has never been mentioned. And yet a Mossad motive is obvious. On this question, as on almost all others, American reporters cannot bring themselves to cast Israel in an unfavorable light - despite the fact that Mossad complicity is as plausible as any of the other theories.”

—US Representative Paul Findley, March 1992

No Beauty in the Beas[/u]t, Chapter titled "in Their Words". Excerpts of Glenn's other writings located at www.crescentandthecross.com]

When you were posting your last comment, Piper Collins, called me and said he would join the Forum and answer your concerns from his research, and so all I ask is that you try not to "pre-judge" (prejudice) what he says, until he says it, here, for all to see, review, discuss and comment. He tried to log on earleir but he still does not have posting access. I'm not the author or looking for a verbal fight with anyone here. I want to know who killed JFK.

I also want to know who planted the explosives in the WTC #1, #2, and #7 which led us into war with Afghanistan, Iraq, and possibly into Iran with thermo-nuclear bombs (that the Pentagon says are "safe for civilians") next month, not based on Iran's nuclear weapons plans (5 to 10 years), but on Iran's plans to open an Iranian Oil Bourse pegged to the Euro, as opposed to the petro-dollar created by Nixon and Kissinger in 1971 in the New York and London exchanges.

Who benefits from the destruction of all of Israel's enemies and arab (persian) neighbors in the middle east?

While we discuss the JFK assassination 42 years ago, there are madmen and lunatics in charge of the US Government (Republican Neocons referenced and named in an earlier post) that think its good policy, and are planning and implementing, a nuclear attack on a sovereign nation with disastrous results for ALL human beings that live on the planet earth. This did not just happen in the Bush-Cheney White House... IMO. Stop the madness. Tone down the rhetoric. At the very least, we could all experience a financial collapse worse than 1929, worldwide. Restore sanity in government, try the truth for a change.

I can't prove it, but I think there are threads that run through JFK's death, Watergate, Iran/Contra, and 9/11. I just want the truth as opposed to the obvious lies and propoganda about these major world events that affect all mankind. We need a miracle... NOW!

"Let's give peace a chance"... a REAL CHANCE.

Jeff D.

[Owen Parsons]

Consider the following quote: "I want to tell you something very clear, don't worry about American pressure on Israel, we, the Jewish people control America, and the Americans know it."

—Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to cabinet member Shimon Peres, October 3rd, 2001, as reported on Kol Y'Israel radio.

This quote is a fabrication. See here.

Here is another from Mr. Sharon: "We are Judeo-Nazis, and why not? If your nice, civilized parents, rather than writing books about their love for humanity had instead come to Israel and killed six million Arabs, what would have happened? Sure, two or three nasty pages would have been written in the history books, and we would have been called all sorts of names, but we would be here today as a people of 25 million! What you don't seem to understand is that the dirty work of Zionism is not finished yet, far from it."

—Ariel Sharon, 1982

As is this one. See here. The quote debunked on this page is somewhat different, but it is given the same date and repeats key phrases and a sentence.

The only source I can find for the Fulbright quote is on neo-Nazi and militant Islamic sites. It looks just as phony as the two Sharon quotes.

Its this sort of stuff that lead me to take a second look at my original position on the Israel-Palestine conflict.

Edited February 14, 2006 by Owen Parsons

[Mark Stapleton]

Consider the following quote: "I want to tell you something very clear, don't worry about American pressure on Israel, we, the Jewish people control America, and the Americans know it."

—Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to cabinet member Shimon Peres, October 3rd, 2001, as reported on Kol Y'Israel radio.

This quote is a fabrication. See here.

Here is another from Mr. Sharon: "We are Judeo-Nazis, and why not? If your nice, civilized parents, rather than writing books about their love for humanity had instead come to Israel and killed six million Arabs, what would have happened? Sure, two or three nasty pages would have been written in the history books, and we would have been called all sorts of names, but we would be here today as a people of 25 million! What you don't seem to understand is that the dirty work of Zionism is not finished yet, far from it."

—Ariel Sharon, 1982

As is this one. See here. The quote debunked on this page is somewhat different, but it is given the same date and repeats key phrases and a sentence.

The only source I can find for the Fulbright quote is on neo-Nazi and militant Islamic sites. It looks just as phony as the two Sharon quotes.

Its this sort of stuff that lead me to take a second look at my original position on the Israel-Palestine conflict.

I want to stick primarily to the JFK assassination aspect of this thread but (briefly digressing), I would suggest you also consider the following comments, from a book called "Iron Wall, Israel and the Arab States" by Israeli historian Avi Schlaim. These quotes are from Moshe Dayan, arguably Israel's greatest soldier and also a former Defense Minister in the Israeli Government. In an interview in 1976, he describes how the confrontation with the Syrians began in 1967:

Never mind that (when asked if the Syrians initiated the war from the Golan Heights). After all, I know how at least 80% of the clashes there started.

We would send a tractor to plough someplace where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarised area, and we knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. Then we would use artillery and later the Air Force also, and that's how it was.

I did that, and also Laskov and Chara (Zvi Tsur, Rabin's successor as Chief of Staff). Yitzhak did that, but it seems to me the person who enjoyed these games was Dado (David Elzar, OC Northern Command, 1964-1969). (Iron Wall pp. 236-237).

Moshe Dayan also had this to say about Israel's relationship with America:

Our American friends offer us money, arms and advice. We take the money, take the arms and decline the advice. (Iron Wall, p.316)

I welcome your research into these areas, Owen.

Edited February 14, 2006 by Mark Stapleton

[John Dolva]

So, even before Piper is a memeber he phones another memeber who post's his position on Jews. And it's based on bullxxxx as shown by the links.

This will inevitably turn into a xxxxfight and a dissemination of his views. It already has. And you want him as a member???

Obviously those who are interested in his attitudes have no problem already accessing them. Why go further and give him and his ilk a legup here?

[Tim Gratz]

Mark S. wrote:

Injecting your daughter into this debate, especially in this manner, has the implication, however veiled, that I am indifferent to the killing of innocent children. I'm a father too and you and I both know that such an implication is unthinkable and greatly resented. This is a debate about whether Michael Collins Piper's views on JFK's assassination should be heard. Michael Collins Piper: Final Judgement--that's the name of this thread. You're taking this debate way beyond its parameters.

Well, Mark, let me try to personalize it for you even more.

Mark, for your information, of the 1,500,000 Jews that Piper admits the Nazis killed during a war that he says we should not have fought, many of them were young girls just like my daughter. I know what I would feel like if my daughter was killed in either an accident or by a murderer. Can you imagine what it was like being a Jewish father in a concentration camp knowing your young daughter was about to have her life stomped out, and you would not even be there to comfort her and hold her as she died? Can you imagine the young children crying for their parents as they faced death alone?

And when I think about the Holocaust I cannot help but thinking of the two young sons of my Jewish friends, Sherman, on of the brightest nine year olds around, and Jason, who is the spitting image of his father. And I think about how many young boys like them were slaughtered by the regime that Piper defends. It literally sickens me.

Like I said in a previous post, if it doesn't sicken you, too, you have moral myopia. You care more about who killed one American than who killed millions of Jews. Well, let me tell you something, in the eyes of God, the life of every one of those Jewish children was as precious as the life of JFK.

Absent your moral myopia, you would not want to provide a forum for Piper (John Dolva correctly calls him "filth") who attempts to minimimize the Nazi atrocities by reducing the number by a couple of million, regardless of whether he has interesting views on the assassination. I would not shake the guy's hand.

And to John, you say you are going to admit Piper because I do not dictate who can join the Forum. Well, I say you ought to deny him admission because Andy Walker has stated he cannot countenance giving a platform to a Nazi. But if you want to admit such ilk, then you ought to reinstate Astucia.

Edited February 14, 2006 by Tim Gratz

[Mark Stapleton]

So, even before Piper is a memeber he phones another memeber who post's his position on Jews. And it's based on bullxxxx as shown by the links.

This will inevitably turn into a xxxxfight and a dissemination of his views. It already has. And you want him as a member???

Obviously those who are interested in his attitudes have no problem already accessing them. Why go further and give him and his ilk a legup here?

I wish you would be more specific in your posts and not make wild rants.

You have a problem with a Forum member and Mr. Piper communicating by phone? Why? Do you also wish to have phone contact banned?

For your information, I am interested in what Piper has to say about JFK. I resent you trying to determine what I may or may not hear. It probably will be a xxxxfight, judging by the extraordinary invective and animosity being whipped up by you and Tim. As far as I am concerned, Tim has slipped over the edge on this one. Looks like you are right behind him.

[Tim Gratz]

Jeff wrote:

Here is the view of a US Senator: “Israel controls the United States Senate. Around 80 percent are completely in support of Israel; anything Israel wants it gets. Jewish influence in the House of Representatives is even greater.”

- United States Senator William Fulbright

Jeff, let us not forget that Fulbright was a racist.

So it should surprise us that he was also an anti-Semite?

[John Dolva]

So, even before Piper is a memeber he phones another memeber who post's his position on Jews. And it's based on bullxxxx as shown by the links.

This will inevitably turn into a xxxxfight and a dissemination of his views. It already has. And you want him as a member???

Obviously those who are interested in his attitudes have no problem already accessing them. Why go further and give him and his ilk a legup here?

I wish you would be more specific in your posts and not make wild rants.

You have a problem with a Forum member and Mr. Piper communicating by phone? Why? Do you also wish to have phone contact banned?

For your information, I am interested in what Piper has to say about JFK. I resent you trying to determine what I may or may not hear. It probably will be a xxxxfight, judging by the extraordinary invective and animosity being whipped up by you and Tim. As far as I am concerned, Tim has slipped over the edge on this one. Looks like you are right behind him.

An interesting take on my post.

What do you think Mark. Do I want to ban phone contacts?

You as well as myself and anyone who reads the posts know the answer to that.

You suggest I do, Why?

________________________________

What power do I have to determine what enters your ears?

John is clear as to where the power resides as to who joins or doesn't join this forum.

________________________________

I find Pipers comments extremely inflammatory.

I think Tim happens to be right on this one, and would be quite pleased if you would characterise me as already having gone over the edge on this one. Way over. What Tim or anyone else chooses is up to them.

My position on membership for Piper is no. His situation takes precedence over the assassination.

Others are in contact with him and can state his position. That's fine with me.

[Tim Gratz]

Excellent final point John. I can adequately summarize the basis for Piper's scenario that the Mossad did it. It is all speculation. He has no evidence whatsover to prove it. Part of his scenario of course is that JJA was involvedand everyone knows JJA was close to the Mossad. Well, #1, JJA was not involved, and #2, even if he was, his involvement is obviously an insufficient basis to indict the Mossad.

Moreover as Scott pointed out it would have been political suicide for the Mossad to kill POTUS. Scott also points out that Piper is wrong in his scenario (which places a great emphasis on Meyer Lansky) because he misinterprets Lansky's role in the Mafia.

Piper pulls together his scenario because he has an obvious agenda to "get Israel".

[Tim Gratz]

Here's another laugh about Piper's scenario.

He accepts the theory that Corsican murderers were imported for the job (a theory I also tend to credit).

It does not take a rocket scientist to know the Mossad would not subcontract assassins. It had its own highly efficient killers.

That is a giant hole in Piper's absurd scenario.

Edited February 14, 2006 by Tim Gratz