Dealy Plaza Survey Data

[John Dolva]

and that might explain the anterior left of midline top of head bullet sized hair blowout with the attendant fascia destruction as the bullet seems to split into three different sized fragments that behave as they do in arcs until then again striking a dense medium and in this case causing (with the help of explosive cavitation in a closed, but compromised system.) the troughlike path of lacerations, shattered bone and pulped tissue with lesser visible paths of destruction attending.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Yes.

I miss your input. There are a number of avenues of research that are brought to a halt for me by a lack of an absolutely certified correct surevey of LEVELS, ANGLES and TRAVERSE POINTS and the transition between points, and all the correct notes taken from which a proper plat can be drawn. Do you have them, are they accessible. I'm not interested in shot locations but topography as can be drawn on a preperly detailed survey. I'm talking what we in OZ call ''high detail'' with regards to object locations and levels throughout the area surveyed.

What exactly is your opinion of Drommer?

"What exactly is your opinion of Drommer?"

It gives me a headache!

Actually, the Drommer works are some of the most accurate information available.

There is of course, the old "however".

Without that knowledge contained within the previous survey works, as well as the actual survey notes, the Drommer work merely leaves one with information in which much of that information is not even know the significance of.

Is it not "Chris" who has the Drommer plat???

Whoever it was, many of the "keys" to deciphering this important document have been provided.

As to "accuracy" on other survey items, therein lies much of the problems.

Very little of any of the actual survey was done beyond the accuracy of degrees & minutes. (no angles, (vertical or horizontal) were taken to the "seconds" of accuracy.

Likewise, one must place into perspective that this was the "old" days of tape measures and long/drawn out mathmatical calculations utilizing logrithmic tables as well as the process of interpolation.

All of which interject a given amount of error by nature of the process.

And, although I never thought to ask Mr. West as to exactly why the survey accuracy was of such an extent to have actually allowed for such errors, I would bet my beret on the fact that the WC did not want such detailed accuracy.

Kind of difficult to complete pull the wool over someone's eyes when there is no room for error.

That information gathered during the Time/Life work is unfortunately the most lacking in physical accuracy, but then again, it was all done within a single day's time without benefit of any true physical survey related to the topographic terrain/surrounding area.

So, as much as possession of this information aides one in resolution of some problems, it only generates further confusion and speculations among those who do not understand that, by it's very nature, the process was somewhat flawed even without the WC's interjected alignment errors.

[John Dolva]

Yes, the accuracy of the Plaza (or northern half) is essentially 2d spatially as correct as one could ecpect. This is what I have found also. I've got the link to a very big zoomable copy on photobucket on another thread.). The however point is well taken. I think it's good to get a basic knowledge in the old theodolite, plumb, traversing, etc and the inevitable errors creeping in. The eastern border of victoia and nsw and south australia is a classic*.

edit add *though that was an equipment error from the start. Pretty straight from both sides, hence the wiggle.

Drommer

Edited March 12, 2010 by John Dolva

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Hi Jerry

Link to some of Tom's images in my gallery.

Tom Purvis Gallery

And, your "gallery" happens to contain many of those "EEI's" (Essential Elements of Information) necessary to resolve many of the often confusing and highly obscured facts relative to the event.

Might want to post the "Bond# 8" again and see if David can figure our exactly how it comes into play in regards to his (& others) attempts at demonstration of their favorite subject matter.

IE: Zapruder Film alteration.

Are we having fun yet?

Tom

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/galle...&fullsize=1

One can rest assured that this too has significance in the matter.

As does this!

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0464a.htm

And, one would not want to leave out that comparison between the SS assassination photograph taken from the Zapruder pedestal, which was quite obviously taken from a position which was actually slightly left of the position at which Zapruder was actually standing, yet:

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z272.jpg

The lamp post, in relationship to background objects, remains in virtually the identical location in the Z-film as when compared with the SS photo.

Note: Two more pieces of the puzzle (which have, by the way, been previously brought out here), next time I return to the Library.

[Mark Knight]

Keep it coming, Tom...appreciate all the information!

[Chris Davidson]

Yes.

I miss your input. There are a number of avenues of research that are brought to a halt for me by a lack of an absolutely certified correct surevey of LEVELS, ANGLES and TRAVERSE POINTS and the transition between points, and all the correct notes taken from which a proper plat can be drawn. Do you have them, are they accessible. I'm not interested in shot locations but topography as can be drawn on a preperly detailed survey. I'm talking what we in OZ call ''high detail'' with regards to object locations and levels throughout the area surveyed.

What exactly is your opinion of Drommer?

"What exactly is your opinion of Drommer?"

It gives me a headache!

Actually, the Drommer works are some of the most accurate information available.

There is of course, the old "however".

Without that knowledge contained within the previous survey works, as well as the actual survey notes, the Drommer work merely leaves one with information in which much of that information is not even know the significance of.

Is it not "Chris" who has the Drommer plat???

Whoever it was, many of the "keys" to deciphering this important document have been provided.

As to "accuracy" on other survey items, therein lies much of the problems.

Very little of any of the actual survey was done beyond the accuracy of degrees & minutes. (no angles, (vertical or horizontal) were taken to the "seconds" of accuracy.

Likewise, one must place into perspective that this was the "old" days of tape measures and long/drawn out mathmatical calculations utilizing logrithmic tables as well as the process of interpolation.

All of which interject a given amount of error by nature of the process.

And, although I never thought to ask Mr. West as to exactly why the survey accuracy was of such an extent to have actually allowed for such errors, I would bet my beret on the fact that the WC did not want such detailed accuracy.

Kind of difficult to complete pull the wool over someone's eyes when there is no room for error.

That information gathered during the Time/Life work is unfortunately the most lacking in physical accuracy, but then again, it was all done within a single day's time without benefit of any true physical survey related to the topographic terrain/surrounding area.

So, as much as possession of this information aides one in resolution of some problems, it only generates further confusion and speculations among those who do not understand that, by it's very nature, the process was somewhat flawed even without the WC's interjected alignment errors.

Hi Tom,

Yes, I do have the Drommer plat.

Many others do also.

I recommend converting the resolution of Drommer from 72 to 100 DPI.

Might help with the 1inch=10Ft. key.

Some important info from Tom in previous posting's.

It is highly unlikely that, from this limited testimony, one would be aware that the SS Survey plat of 12/5/63 was even generated and that actually some four days of survey work (December 2/3/4/ with a full scale re-enactment complete with Lincoln Continental convertable limo and surveyed in positions for JFK conducted on the 5th, actually transpired.

Unless of course one had a copy of the Survey Plat as well as the survey notes.

This is why, with the current survey notes which Mr. West provided to me, were one to obtain authorization to do so, Dealy Plaza could be re-constructed back, virtually exactly, to it's 11/22/63 configuration, complete with road signs; lamp posts; yellow marks on the curb; manhole and inlet covers; correct elevation differences; etc; etc; etc.

The great majority of this accurate survey data was obtained during the three days of survey work in December, 1963 when Mr. West did the work and assassination re-enactment for the US Secret Service.

And, fortunately, this work was done PRIOR to anyone seeing the need to begin moving and/or elimination of many items.

chris

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Yes.

I miss your input. There are a number of avenues of research that are brought to a halt for me by a lack of an absolutely certified correct surevey of LEVELS, ANGLES and TRAVERSE POINTS and the transition between points, and all the correct notes taken from which a proper plat can be drawn. Do you have them, are they accessible. I'm not interested in shot locations but topography as can be drawn on a preperly detailed survey. I'm talking what we in OZ call ''high detail'' with regards to object locations and levels throughout the area surveyed.

What exactly is your opinion of Drommer?

"What exactly is your opinion of Drommer?"

It gives me a headache!

Actually, the Drommer works are some of the most accurate information available.

There is of course, the old "however".

Without that knowledge contained within the previous survey works, as well as the actual survey notes, the Drommer work merely leaves one with information in which much of that information is not even know the significance of.

Is it not "Chris" who has the Drommer plat???

Whoever it was, many of the "keys" to deciphering this important document have been provided.

As to "accuracy" on other survey items, therein lies much of the problems.

Very little of any of the actual survey was done beyond the accuracy of degrees & minutes. (no angles, (vertical or horizontal) were taken to the "seconds" of accuracy.

Likewise, one must place into perspective that this was the "old" days of tape measures and long/drawn out mathmatical calculations utilizing logrithmic tables as well as the process of interpolation.

All of which interject a given amount of error by nature of the process.

And, although I never thought to ask Mr. West as to exactly why the survey accuracy was of such an extent to have actually allowed for such errors, I would bet my beret on the fact that the WC did not want such detailed accuracy.

Kind of difficult to complete pull the wool over someone's eyes when there is no room for error.

That information gathered during the Time/Life work is unfortunately the most lacking in physical accuracy, but then again, it was all done within a single day's time without benefit of any true physical survey related to the topographic terrain/surrounding area.

So, as much as possession of this information aides one in resolution of some problems, it only generates further confusion and speculations among those who do not understand that, by it's very nature, the process was somewhat flawed even without the WC's interjected alignment errors.

Hi Tom,

Yes, I do have the Drommer plat.

Many others do also.

I recommend converting the resolution of Drommer from 72 to 100 DPI.

Might help with the 1inch=10Ft. key.

Some important info from Tom in previous posting's.

It is highly unlikely that, from this limited testimony, one would be aware that the SS Survey plat of 12/5/63 was even generated and that actually some four days of survey work (December 2/3/4/ with a full scale re-enactment complete with Lincoln Continental convertable limo and surveyed in positions for JFK conducted on the 5th, actually transpired.

Unless of course one had a copy of the Survey Plat as well as the survey notes.

This is why, with the current survey notes which Mr. West provided to me, were one to obtain authorization to do so, Dealy Plaza could be re-constructed back, virtually exactly, to it's 11/22/63 configuration, complete with road signs; lamp posts; yellow marks on the curb; manhole and inlet covers; correct elevation differences; etc; etc; etc.

The great majority of this accurate survey data was obtained during the three days of survey work in December, 1963 when Mr. West did the work and assassination re-enactment for the US Secret Service.

And, fortunately, this work was done PRIOR to anyone seeing the need to begin moving and/or elimination of many items.

chris

The "combined" information gleaned from the multiple surveys conducted, adds considerable compliment to the important and overall grasp of various locations of persons as well as fixed objects within Dealey Plaza.

Unfortunately, even the most accurate Survey Plats available (Drommer and/or WC) are only on a scale of 1" = 10 feet.

When one takes into consideration the inherent "plotting error" in drawing such a scaled item, then attempting to fully utilize the survey plat as if it represented an "absolute", can get one into serious trouble.

Likewise! What few seem to be aware of is the simple fact that when one takes a photograph and they are "leaning" by just the smallest amount, it makes considerable difference in alignment of foreground and background items within that photograph. Especially the closer the foreground item is to the camera.

In that regards, the Zapruder film has most assuredly confused many!

Especially in regards to the sign location and other items of alignment.

And, when one takes into consideration the slight difference between "right-eye" alignment and "left-eye" alignment in regards to fixed foreground and background items, coupled with the slightly enhanced/enlarged/increased dimensions created by "close-up" photography, then it is little wonder why many can not even correlate the simple aspects of the road-sign location in the SS re-enactment photo as compared to the Zapruder film, when in fact the sign is at the exact same location in both photographic images.

As example: In the SS Photo, one could take one step to the right and be considerably closer to Zapruder's actual location. This alone would "move" the location of the lamp post in regards to background items.

Then, dependent upon which "eye" is being utilized to film, one can easily cause the lamp post to move additionally (in either direction).

Finally, if one truly wants to make the lamp post "move" in relationship to backgound fixture alignments, just try leaning one's head some 3-degrees or so and observe the tremendous change which is to be observed in the final photographic product.

Rest assured that when the WC created their "re-enactment" photographs, they took advantage of virtually all of these anomalies in photographic alignment.

To include slight elevation changes as well as actual camera position.

But then again, a "leaning" Zapruder camera would create a film in which the actual amount of "lean" could be easily determined.

After all, one would merely have to look closely at close foreground and far background items in order to determine the amount of "lean" to the camera. Especially when compared with the natural vertical and horizontal planes of the sprocket holes in the film.

Provided of course that such items had not, through some mysterious means, have been deleted from the film.

"Stretched" sprocket holes certainly can confuse one as to exactly what the true horizontal and vertical plane actually and originally were.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Keep it coming, Tom...appreciate all the information!

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0464a.htm

Long ago, I posted this, and so informed that it is not the factual/true WC Survey Plat.

Of those items referenced as being amiss from this was the "curb drain/inlet", which is in fact surveyed in and plotted on the true survey plats in my possession.

I also long ago mentioned that on March 16, 1964, when the Autopsy Surgeons were called to testify, Mr. West was also called and asked to go get exact measurements relative to sign sizes/dimensions and physical locations relative to curbs and light posts.

To include the sign and lamp post which was farther down Elm St. from Zapruder's position.

Which, when combined with the curb drain and inlet into this drain, make for some pretty fair "alignment" items in event that one wishes to "backplot" their (or someone else's) position.

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/galle...um=38&pos=2

HMMMMMMMMMM?

Sort of makes one wonder if deletion of the curb drain/inlet location from the "Purported" WC Survey Plat (CE882), would have anything to do with alignment of photographic images relative to these background items.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Chris,

It was 90-feet from centerline of the first lamp post to the going away side of the second lamp post (aka the one down in front of Zapruder's position).

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z125.jpg

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z272.jpg

It was 55 feet from the corner of the concrete wall in the background, to the leading edge of the first skylight (of the second grouping of skylights/hole in wall)

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z210.jpg

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z265.jpg

There were 9 skylights with a "beginning first to end of last" distance of 9.3 feet.

Distance from corner of concrete wall to end of last skylight/hole in wall was 64.3 feet.

In event that you plot the lamp post location, might want to extend a line from the Zapruder pedestal (elevation point at the bottom of the steps, through that street & curb elevation on the South curb of Elm St.

[John Dolva]

The complete Wests Survey Notes as taken on the day is essential.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

The complete Wests Survey Notes as taken on the day is essential.

Since no such "animal" of that nomenclature exists, then one just may be hoping for nothing in event they expect ALL to be given.

The "essential" elements of information can only be derived when one has access to ALL information.

Some of this information, as limited as it actually is, comes from the TIME/LIFE works of November 1963.

Other critical information is derived from the three days of survey work (December 2, 3, & 4th) which culminated in the SS Survey assassination re-enactment and Survey Plat of 12/5/63.

Other critical information is derived from the FBI Assassination re-enactment and Survey Plat, with limited survey work done, which was thereafter done on 2/7/64.

Other critical information is derived from an understanding of the additional survey points (& survey notes) which are associated with the WC's assassination re-enactment and Survey Plat of May, 1964.

Much of this knowledge thereafter provides various "keys" to an understanding of the survey points and elevations as shown on the later Drommer Survey Plat.

And lastly, the handwritten (measurement) notes of Lyndal Shaneyfelt also happen to shed additional light/knowledge as to exactly what the FBI fully knew, when! Not to mention additional elements of information relative to "key" marker locations such as sidewalk/street curbing construction joints, etc.

And lastly, even (if) when in possession of each of the above items, the capability of deriving answers from this knowledge is limited by the accuracy/inaccuracy of dealing with, at best, a survey plat on which the scale is 1" = 10 feet.

Not to mention actually "disappearing/moving" non-permanently fixed items of Dealey Plaza.

And, although most "non-permanent"/fixed items of Dealey Plaza could be re-placed based on the cumulative data contained within the survey notes, even this would contain a given error.

Very little of the survey work was carried out into the "seconds" of accuracy, as well as some measurements having not even been carried to the "tenth" of a foot.

Therefore, one could go to Dealey Plaza, and utilizing the existing information/data, still only replace certain items to within a foot-or so of accuracy.

And, without utilization of the "EXACT"/same camera's utilized in much of the assassination photography, establishment of many of the alignments of items would contain the errors of photography as well.

Nevertheless, it could still be accomplished. Just that it would require time/money/and complete access to all known and available data.

Tom

P.S. For "Parrothead"! The SS placement for impact of the SECOND SHOT/aka the Z312/313 impact, was actually less than one-foot in distance from that as determined by the WC.

The actual street elevation difference for the two impact locations varies by only a few hundredths of a foot.

And of course, the SS works of 12/5/63 and the FBI works of 2/7/64 maintained the exact same location for the THIRD/LAST/FINAL shot as being some 30-feet farther down Elm St, directly in front of James Altgens location.

Just as he stated in his deposition when he was finally called.

I would suppose that possibly only "Mr. Parrothead" is of the misguided opinion that James Altgens was actually standing at some point between the TSDB and the location where Jean Hill/Mary Moorman were standing. Which happens to be where the WC managed to "move" him too.

As Mr. Shaneyfelt could have told you, James Altgens was standing virtually exactly at the construction joint in the concrete curb & gutter, which construction joint happens to be exactly 5-feet from the leading edge of the SECOND yellow curb mark.

[John Dolva]

I agree, and I'd very much like to have it.

edit: ok, by it I mean the handwritten tabulated notes that West took from where he stepped off the benchmark and detailed level changes. 1:10 is more than enough to produce a workable topographic map with fixed objects marked, with elevations.

Edited March 23, 2010 by John Dolva

[Thomas H. Purvis]

The complete Wests Survey Notes as taken on the day is essential.

Since no such "animal" of that nomenclature exists, then one just may be hoping for nothing in event they expect ALL to be given.

The "essential" elements of information can only be derived when one has access to ALL information.

Some of this information, as limited as it actually is, comes from the TIME/LIFE works of November 1963.

Other critical information is derived from the three days of survey work (December 2, 3, & 4th) which culminated in the SS Survey assassination re-enactment and Survey Plat of 12/5/63.

Other critical information is derived from the FBI Assassination re-enactment and Survey Plat, with limited survey work done, which was thereafter done on 2/7/64.

Other critical information is derived from an understanding of the additional survey points (& survey notes) which are associated with the WC's assassination re-enactment and Survey Plat of May, 1964.

Much of this knowledge thereafter provides various "keys" to an understanding of the survey points and elevations as shown on the later Drommer Survey Plat.

And lastly, the handwritten (measurement) notes of Lyndal Shaneyfelt also happen to shed additional light/knowledge as to exactly what the FBI fully knew, when! Not to mention additional elements of information relative to "key" marker locations such as sidewalk/street curbing construction joints, etc.

And lastly, even (if) when in possession of each of the above items, the capability of deriving answers from this knowledge is limited by the accuracy/inaccuracy of dealing with, at best, a survey plat on which the scale is 1" = 10 feet.

Not to mention actually "disappearing/moving" non-permanently fixed items of Dealey Plaza.

And, although most "non-permanent"/fixed items of Dealey Plaza could be re-placed based on the cumulative data contained within the survey notes, even this would contain a given error.

Very little of the survey work was carried out into the "seconds" of accuracy, as well as some measurements having not even been carried to the "tenth" of a foot.

Therefore, one could go to Dealey Plaza, and utilizing the existing information/data, still only replace certain items to within a foot-or so of accuracy.

And, without utilization of the "EXACT"/same camera's utilized in much of the assassination photography, establishment of many of the alignments of items would contain the errors of photography as well.

Nevertheless, it could still be accomplished. Just that it would require time/money/and complete access to all known and available data.

Tom

P.S. For "Parrothead"! The SS placement for impact of the SECOND SHOT/aka the Z312/313 impact, was actually less than one-foot in distance from that as determined by the WC.

The actual street elevation difference for the two impact locations varies by only a few hundredths of a foot.

And of course, the SS works of 12/5/63 and the FBI works of 2/7/64 maintained the exact same location for the THIRD/LAST/FINAL shot as being some 30-feet farther down Elm St, directly in front of James Altgens location.

Just as he stated in his deposition when he was finally called.

I would suppose that possibly only "Mr. Parrothead" is of the misguided opinion that James Altgens was actually standing at some point between the TSDB and the location where Jean Hill/Mary Moorman were standing. Which happens to be where the WC managed to "move" him too.

As Mr. Shaneyfelt could have told you, James Altgens was standing virtually exactly at the construction joint in the concrete curb & gutter, which construction joint happens to be exactly 5-feet from the leading edge of the SECOND yellow curb mark.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol18_0054a.htm

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/MC14.htm

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/galle...&fullsize=1

And, as long ago mentioned and "marked". Even a "crack" in the asphalt of Elm St. can serve a purpose.

Be it to assist in locating the position of an idividual or attempting to "hide" the location of an individual.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol18_0047b.htm

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk..._Vol5_0076b.htm

Just gotta love anyone who can pull the wool over everyone's eyes so easily!

[Thomas H. Purvis]

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0449a.htm

Of course, one must also "love" anyone who is sufficiently smart enough to "hide-in-plain-sight", knowledge which effectively destroys the myth in regards to "THE SHOT THAT MISSED".

And, so long as one is not expending cerebral function in chasing "mythological multiple assassins", one just may find something else of relevance within the WC documents.

[John Dolva]

if that was the view I would have whacked him between 877 and 878. One shot.