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Dealy Plaza Survey Data


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In order to assure that the record and history are correct regarding the integrity and honor of Mr. Robert West*, and that he played no part in the WC lies and coverup of facts of the assassination of JFK, it is my hope that should anyone at any time question the integrity of Mr. West, that they be thereafter referred to this topic.

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*Since many of the CT group has at one time or another attempted to impune the integrity of virtually everyone else, I would expect that sooner or later Mr. West will fall under the umbrella of their claims.

________________________________________________________________________________

_________

Having corresponded with Mr. West on several occassions, as well as having visited him in his home on at least two separate occassions, there can be little doubt that Mr. West played absolutely no intentional role in the misrepresentation of facts as relates to the survey work in Dealy Plaza, which was directly related to the assassination of JFK.

In Fact, Mr. West fully questioned the work of the WC, and merely "wrote it off" as a bunch of politicians and FBI personnel who did not know what they wanted and/or how to go about achieving it.

In that regard, Mr. West shared many stories about those items which "did not make any sense" during his WC survey/re-enactment work.

As a result of the open, forthright, and honest discussions which Mr. West shared with me, it was quite obvious that he played no part in the WC obfuscation of the facts related to the assassination of JFK.

In fact, Mr. West was quite astonished when I personally presented to him, at him home in Dallas, that information relative to where the WC had "changed" data on his survey work.

He also could not believe that they had gotten away with the manner in which his actual survey was admitted into evidence in a "sealed" envelope without ever being opened and examined.

In that regard, Mr. West, who was now fully retired, shared with me copies of all survey notes and survey plats related the the assassination re-enactments in Dealy Plaza.

To that end, few if any were even aware of the fact that Mr. West had done survey work, as well as having completed a survey plat, for Time/Life Magazine on 11/25/63.

This of course also includes the later work done for the US Secret Service and completed on 12/5/63.

As well as the later work done for the FBI and completed on 2/7/64.

Then there is the work as done for the WC and completed on 6/25/64 in which the impact point for the third/last/final shot has been deleted, yet still contains the impact point for the first and second shots.

Which too was apparantly unacceptable!

And ultimately ended with a "re-drawn" survey plat which now deleted the First Shot, and had a line drawn shortly prior to this shot at "Point A"*, and now showed only impact point for the Z-313 head shot.

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*With this little "slicky boy" move the WC created a large survey plat which showed positions and angles to "Point A", on the map/plat.

Previous survey plats showed lines drawn to the impact point for shot#1, however even that copy of the other survey data as presented into evidence, is reduced to the extent that one can not distinguish between the fact that the SS Plat is drawn to Shot#1 whereas the WC Survey Plat in drawn to "Point A", which was located by the WC shortly prior to impact point for the first shot.

ALL survey work (Time/Life--SS/FBI (1 &2) demonstrate the impact point for shot#1, with the downward angles drawn onto the survey plat.

The WC made this work disappear and thereafter "blend" in to "Point A"!

In addition, of course, to making shot# 3 impact point disappear as well.

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'Thomas H. Purvis' wrote:

In order to assure that the record and history are correct regarding the integrity and honor of Mr. Robert West*, and that he played no part in the WC lies and coverup of facts of the assassination of JFK, it is my hope that should anyone at any time question the integrity of Mr. West, that they be thereafter referred to this topic.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Since many of the CT group has at one time or another attempted to impune the integrity of virtually everyone else, I would expect that sooner or later Mr. West will fall under the umbrella of their claims.

________________________________________________________________________________

_________

Having corresponded with Mr. West on several occassions, as well as having visited him in his home on at least two separate occassions, there can be little doubt that Mr. West played absolutely no intentional role in the misrepresentation of facts as relates to the survey work in Dealy Plaza, which was directly related to the assassination of JFK.

In Fact, Mr. West fully questioned the work of the WC, and merely "wrote it off" as a bunch of politicians and FBI personnel who did not know what they wanted and/or how to go about achieving it.

In that regard, Mr. West shared many stories about those items which "did not make any sense" during his WC survey/re-enactment work.

As a result of the open, forthright, and honest discussions which Mr. West shared with me, it was quite obvious that he played no part in the WC obfuscation of the facts related to the assassination of JFK.

In fact, Mr. West was quite astonished when I personally presented to him, at him home in Dallas, that information relative to where the WC had "changed" data on his survey work.

He also could not believe that they had gotten away with the manner in which his actual survey was admitted into evidence in a "sealed" envelope without ever being opened and examined.

In that regard, Mr. West, who was now fully retired, shared with me copies of all survey notes and survey plats related the the assassination re-enactments in Dealy Plaza.

To that end, few if any were even aware of the fact that Mr. West had done survey work, as well as having completed a survey plat, for Time/Life Magazine on 11/25/63.

This of course also includes the later work done for the US Secret Service and completed on 12/5/63.

As well as the later work done for the FBI and completed on 2/7/64.

Then there is the work as done for the WC and completed on 6/25/64 in which the impact point for the third/last/final shot has been deleted, yet still contains the impact point for the first and second shots.

Which too was apparantly unacceptable!

And ultimately ended with a "re-drawn" survey plat which now deleted the First Shot, and had a line drawn shortly prior to this shot at "Point A"*, and now showed only impact point for the Z-313 head shot.

dgh: Tom -- does the above square with what we see in the Zapruder camera original, more recently called the MPI DVD piece?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*With this little "slicky boy" move the WC created a large survey plat which showed positions and angles to "Point A", on the map/plat.

Previous survey plats showed lines drawn to the impact point for shot#1, however even that copy of the other survey data as presented into evidence, is reduced to the extent that one can not distinguish between the fact that the SS Plat is drawn to Shot#1 whereas the WC Survey Plat in drawn to "Point A", which was located by the WC shortly prior to impact point for the first shot.

dgh: did Mr. West work with photos provided by the SS/FBI when conducting his Dealey Plaza survey work for same? If so, who provided the photos? And, where those photos part of his submission when he completed the work?

ALL survey work (Time/Life--SS/FBI (1 &2) demonstrate the impact point for shot#1, with the downward angles drawn onto the survey plat.

dgh: Time-Life? when was their DP survey work completed? Were they copied, under seperate cover, the SS/FBI plat work?

The WC made this work disappear and thereafter "blend" in to "Point A"!

In addition, of course, to making shot# 3 impact point disappear as well.

dgh: Referencing current Z-film frame numbers - re Mr. West's plat work for the SS/FBI, that would put the 3rd shot impact point happening around what, Z-355? Closer to the knoll stairs on the north side of Elm...? Course these frame numbers are arbitrary IF the Z-film was altered, further down Elm none-the-less?

Thanks - David Healy

Edited by David G. Healy
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'Thomas H. Purvis' wrote:

In order to assure that the record and history are correct regarding the integrity and honor of Mr. Robert West*, and that he played no part in the WC lies and coverup of facts of the assassination of JFK, it is my hope that should anyone at any time question the integrity of Mr. West, that they be thereafter referred to this topic.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Since many of the CT group has at one time or another attempted to impune the integrity of virtually everyone else, I would expect that sooner or later Mr. West will fall under the umbrella of their claims.

________________________________________________________________________________

_________

Having corresponded with Mr. West on several occassions, as well as having visited him in his home on at least two separate occassions, there can be little doubt that Mr. West played absolutely no intentional role in the misrepresentation of facts as relates to the survey work in Dealy Plaza, which was directly related to the assassination of JFK.

In Fact, Mr. West fully questioned the work of the WC, and merely "wrote it off" as a bunch of politicians and FBI personnel who did not know what they wanted and/or how to go about achieving it.

In that regard, Mr. West shared many stories about those items which "did not make any sense" during his WC survey/re-enactment work.

As a result of the open, forthright, and honest discussions which Mr. West shared with me, it was quite obvious that he played no part in the WC obfuscation of the facts related to the assassination of JFK.

In fact, Mr. West was quite astonished when I personally presented to him, at him home in Dallas, that information relative to where the WC had "changed" data on his survey work.

He also could not believe that they had gotten away with the manner in which his actual survey was admitted into evidence in a "sealed" envelope without ever being opened and examined.

In that regard, Mr. West, who was now fully retired, shared with me copies of all survey notes and survey plats related the the assassination re-enactments in Dealy Plaza.

To that end, few if any were even aware of the fact that Mr. West had done survey work, as well as having completed a survey plat, for Time/Life Magazine on 11/25/63.

This of course also includes the later work done for the US Secret Service and completed on 12/5/63.

As well as the later work done for the FBI and completed on 2/7/64.

Then there is the work as done for the WC and completed on 6/25/64 in which the impact point for the third/last/final shot has been deleted, yet still contains the impact point for the first and second shots.

Which too was apparantly unacceptable!

And ultimately ended with a "re-drawn" survey plat which now deleted the First Shot, and had a line drawn shortly prior to this shot at "Point A"*, and now showed only impact point for the Z-313 head shot.

dgh: Tom -- does the above square with what we see in the Zapruder camera original?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*With this little "slicky boy" move the WC created a large survey plat which showed positions and angles to "Point A", on the map/plat.

Previous survey plats showed lines drawn to the impact point for shot#1, however even that copy of the other survey data as presented into evidence, is reduced to the extent that one can not distinguish between the fact that the SS Plat is drawn to Shot#1 whereas the WC Survey Plat in drawn to "Point A", which was located by the WC shortly prior to impact point for the first shot.

dgh: did Mr. West work with photos provided by the SS/FBI when conducting his Dealey Plaza survey work for same? If so, who provided the photos? And, where those photos part of his submission when he completed the work?

ALL survey work (Time/Life--SS/FBI (1 &2) demonstrate the impact point for shot#1, with the downward angles drawn onto the survey plat.

dgh: Time-Life? when was their DP survey work completed? Were they copied, under seperate cover, the SS/FBI plat work?

The WC made this work disappear and thereafter "blend" in to "Point A"!

In addition, of course, to making shot# 3 impact point disappear as well.

dgh: Referencing current Z-film frame numbers - re Mr. West's plat work for the SS/FBI, that would put the 3rd shot impact point happening around what, Z-355? Closer to the knoll stairs on the north side of Elm...? Course these frame numbers are arbitrary IF the Z-film was altered, further down Elm none-the-less?

Thanks - David Healy

Tom -- does the above square with what we see in the Zapruder camera original?[/b]

1. The Time/Life survey work of 11/25/63 for the Z-313 head shot corresponds almost exactly with the later WC survey data. There was virtually no way to eliminate and/or change this information due to the yellow mark on the curb where Mary Moorman and Jean Hill are standing.

2. The SS "mark"/X on Elm St. is slightly prior to the Time/Life & WC work, as, as indicated, the SS referenced the back bumper of their re-enactment vehicle.

The SS utilized the other Lincoln Continental (the white one), which although having a shorter overall length than the Presidential Limo, nevertheless had the virtual same measurements from the back bumper, across the trunk, to the seat position of JFK.

When this is taken into consideration, then the SS re-enactment position for JFK also correlates with the Time/Life as well as the later WC.

There are slight differences in angles & distances. This is due to the fact that Time/Life & the SS utilized an aiming point onto the Street position of JFK.

The WC utilized a far more accurate angle to the position of JFK's head at it's 4+feet of elevation above the actual point on the street.

Therefore, the minor differences between the survey data.

Also, as noted, the WC intentionally "Jacked" the rifle up in the TSDB firing position, which is obviously not realistic for any true firing position, and certainly does not correspond to the position one would have been in if firing from the snipers nest with the book cartons in their actual position.

Although I had seen the WC re-enactment photo of the "Sniper's Position", it did not register on exactly how asinine this was until Mr. West brought up the subject of how they had the rifle "Jacked up" in the window.

His survey data for the WC being of course to the end of the rifle barrel as seen in the re-enactment photo.

did Mr. West work with photos provided by the SS/FBI when conducting his Dealey Plaza survey work for same? If so, who provided the photos? And, where those photos part of his submission when he completed the work?[/b]

Although Mr. West claimed to have seen the photo's, he fully stated that he did not get to determine the positions to be surveyed.

In this, the WC confusion (which he tought was due to ineptness on their part), he stated that there was no difficulty in establishment of the points on Elm St. had he been given access to the photographic evidence.

He even insinuated that it would have been much easier if "they" had all just gone home and/or allowed him access to the photo's.

Mr. West specifically stated that he/and his crew, merely surveyed in the positions as stated to him by those persons who were in charge and had in their possession the photographic evidence.

Mr. West had no photo's relative to the survey work which he performed.

He did however have numerous newspaper clippings from Dallas papers, which were relative to the assassination, and of which he provided me with.

b] dgh: Time-Life? when was their DP survey work completed? Were they copied, under seperate cover, the SS/FBI plat work?[/b]

The work for Time/Life was completed on 11/25/63 (survey work was done primarly on 11/24 & 11/25, with the survey plat having been drawn and completed on 11/26/63.

In addition to Mr. West, Paul Hardin drew the plat and C. H. Breneman was the instrument man who determined the actual data.

The Time/Life Survey work, to my knowledge, has never been fully presented and/or seen by anyone.

The WC makes absolutely no reference to this work, and few, if any, are aware of it's existence.

I have a copy of the survey plat generated, which was received directly from Mr. West, along with copies of all survey notes for this work, which he could locate.

This survey, actually began the work of establishment of survey control points within the Dealy Plaza area, of which were later utilized for the SS/FBI/& WC survey work.

Considerable additional survey work was done by Mr. West for the SS re-enactment of the assassination, to include establishment of additional survey control points, survey work which established the position of Mr. Emmet Hudson on the steps/walkway, and "much, much more".

By the time the WC got around to it. Mr. West had very little work to do in establishment of additional Survey Control Points for his work with the WC.

And, since they all utilize common "Control Data", it is not difficult to take any piece of work and thereafter transfer data from one survey to the other.

b] dgh: Referencing current Z-film frame numbers - re Mr. West's plat work for the SS/FBI, that would put the 3rd shot impact point happening around what, Z-355? Closer to the knoll stairs on the north side of Elm...? Course these frame numbers are arbitrary IF the Z-film was altered, further down Elm none-the-less?

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Mr. HUDSON - Well, I was standing on those steps that came straight down to Elm there, just above that triple underpass, I was about halfway between the tripple underpass and Houston, where the steps are - somewhere near about halfway

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Yep, you were Mr. Hudson, and your exact position was surveyed in as well!

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Mr. HUDSON - Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty close to even with this here, the last shot was fired - somewhere right along in there.

Mr. LIEBELER - You think the last shot was fired and the car was about where it actually is in that picture when the third shot was fired?

Mr. HUDSON - Pretty close to it; yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - But you think the President had already been hit in the head by the time the third shot was fired?

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Anyone who has been to Dealy Plaza, at least has some idea as to the distance from Z313 to the steps down past Mr. Zapruder's position.

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Mr. HUDSON - Not in particular, I didn't. It was such an exciting time - now - I did notice a man back over here on this triangle.

Mr. LIEBELER - Standing across Elm Street?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - With a motion picture camera?

Mr. HUDSON - Well he had a camera - I don't know whether it was a motion picture camera or not, but he had a camera.

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Yep, you did see that also Mr. Hudson:

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z348.jpg

And, here is what the man with the camera had to say:

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Mr. ALTGENS - This would put me at approximately this area here, which would be about 15 feet from me at the time he was shot in the head--about 15 feet from the car on the west side of the car--on the side that Mrs. Kennedy was riding in the car.

I had refocused to 15 feet because I wanted a good closeup of the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and that's why I know that it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area, and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as far as I got with my camera.

Because, you see, even up to that time I didn't know that the President had been shot previously. I still thought up until that time that all I heard was fireworks and that they were giving some sort of celebration to the President by popping these fireworks. It stunned me so at what I saw that I failed to do my duty and make the picture that I was hoping to make.

There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing,

Mr. LIEBELER - And that it was 15 feet away at the time the third shot was fired.

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - I don't know how many feet it moved, but it moved quite a ways from the time the first shot was fired until the time the third shot was fired. I'm having trouble on this Exhibit No. 203 understanding how you could have been within 30 feet of the President's car when you took Commission Exhibit No. 203 and within 15 feet of the car when he was hit with the last shot in the head without having moved yourself. Now, you have previously indicated that you were right beside the President's car when he was hit in the head.

Mr. ALTGENS - Well, I was about 15 feet from it.

Mr. LIEBELER - But it was almost directly in front of you as it went down the street; isn't that right?

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER - So, it is clear from your testimony that the third shot--the last shot, rather--hit the President?

Mr. ALTGENS - Well, off and on we have been referring to the third shot and the fourth shot; but actually, it was the last shot, the shot did strike the President and there was no other sound like a shot that was made after that. I was just going to make a conclusion here, but that's not my place to do that, so I'll just forget it--what I was going to say.

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If one truly wants the answers, then they have to look down there, on Elm St. where the steps on one side of the street come in (the Z-side) and where Mr. Altgens & yellow stripe#3 are on the other side of the street.

Plus, they have to stop waisting their time chasing mythological multiple assassins.

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http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol18_0050b.htm

This little "adjustment" to the firing angle is relative to several items of the assassination.

One of which being why we have a series of multiple, and often confusing photo's, as to exactly how the boxes were actually stacked at the window of the TSDB.

So, were the boxes stacked "high", or were they stacked "low"?

Any "shooters" here who have ever attempted to accurately fire a rifle from this type position?

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http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol18_0050b.htm

This little "adjustment" to the firing angle is relative to several items of the assassination.

One of which being why we have a series of multiple, and often confusing photo's, as to exactly how the boxes were actually stacked at the window of the TSDB.

So, were the boxes stacked "high", or were they stacked "low"?

Any "shooters" here who have ever attempted to accurately fire a rifle from this type position?

CE 504

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0121b.htm

CE 733 & CE734

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0268a.htm

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0268b.htm

CE 1310/CE1311/ & CE1312

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol22_0257b.htm

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol22_0258a.htm

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When an understanding of the intentional confusion of the evidence is accomplished, then the rational and reasons can be derived.

Until then, it is all merely confusion.

One additional question: the yellow *curb* stripes, did Mr. West comment as to what were they for? If not, do you have any idea?

Thanks for the above 3 posts, Tom...

David Healy

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When an understanding of the intentional confusion of the evidence is accomplished, then the rational and reasons can be derived.

Until then, it is all merely confusion.

One additional question: the yellow *curb* stripes, did Mr. West comment as to what were they for? If not, do you have any idea?

Thanks for the above 3 posts, Tom...

David Healy

Mr. West had absolutely no knowledge as to what the yellow stripes were for.

His survey work ultimately encompassed all of Houston St. from the turn off Main, all the way down to Elm, St., as well as a short distance of Elm back up towards town, and all of Elm through Dealy Plaza, down to the Overpass, as well as additional portions of Main over across the grassy area, from the Tague hit, back up main.

The only location of the yellow stripes is on the curb along the South side of Elm St.

There were three of these stripes, each was 3-feet in length, and they were equidistant in separation as to their painted location.

Therefore, the only known location of any such markings on the curb are on the side which is visible from the TSDB side, and they are located directly within the "Kill Zone" in which the three shots were fired which are responsible for the wounds to JFK.

Of course, we must recall that there was also a 4th round which was found chambered, and although there is no "fourth" yellow mark, there is the curb inlet, located on the exact same side of the street, which is farther down Elm St. than was the third yellow stripe at which Mr. Altgens was standing.

The "traffic control" marker aspect/rumor sounds good, to the uninitiated.

However, in event these were painted onto the East Curb of Elm St. in order to keep drivers from striking the curb, one might ask exactly why no such items existed along the West side of the street, which had the exact same street curvature.

And, there is absolutely no other indication of any such painted markers anywhere else in Dealy Plaza.

ONLY within the kill zone where JFK was shot.

It would therefore also be worthwhile to verify the unconfirmed report that either Jean Hill or Mary Moorman (can't recall which) got some of this yellow paint on their shoe from it's still being fresh.

Remember "Range Markers" from Training Fire?

They were certainly in place at Kontoum just prior to Tet!

Not needed though, as the "Behive" rounds don't need them.

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West and Breneman were give enlargements of Zframes by Life to

use in their studies. Did West retain these color enlargements.

Breneman commented that the frames did not match their plat.

Jack

Mr. West stated that he was never provided with any copies of photo's and/or films with which to complete his work.

He stated that through the various survey's, he and members of his crew were allowed to look at various photo's of frames of the Z-film, as well as other films, but that he was never given these items and thereafter asked or allowed to determined positions exactly himself.

The Time/Life Survey allowed him the greatest access (viewing) of the photographic evidence.

I am aware of Mr. Breneman's claim, yet neither he nor Mr. West has produced any evidence to support that they were ever in possession of such items, and Mr. West was considerably compliant with my request for any and/or all information in his possession.

In that regard, he went back and searched several times to find and provide me with the survey notes from the various re-enactments as well as copies of newspaper clippings associated with the assassination.

Since Mr. Breneman makes this claim (whereas Mr. West did not) (at least not to me), then I would assume that Mr. Breneman can, in some way or another support his claim.

Certainly, he would not have thrown away anything he was given.

Lastly, Mr. Breneman was the "Instrumant Man" on the survey work. Which, more or less places him importance into perspective, as all that he would have been required to do is determine angles, distances, etc. after someone else determined what & where.

The "Party Chief" is the person responsible for the accuracy of all calculations and data conducted during the survey. In this case, Mr. West actually functioned as the Party Chief.

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http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol18_0050b.htm

Mr. SPECTER - Did you participate in the onsite tests at Dallas on May 24, 1964?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes.

Mr. SPECTER - What was your position during most of the time of those onsite tests?

Mr. FRAZIER - I was stationed at the window on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building at the southeast corner of the building.

Mr. SPECTER - How far was that window open at the time the tests were being conducted?

Mr. FRAZIER - I estimated it as approximately one-third. It was somewhat less than halfway open.

Mr. SPECTER - Is that the distance depicted on Commission Exhibit No. 492, which has heretofore been introduced in evidence?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER - Is the distance open on that window about the same as that which you had it open at the time these tests were run?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes; I would say that this is very close. The window was placed according to information already furnished to the Commission as to how much it had been opened at that time.

Mr. SPECTER - Did you handle the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle during the course of the onsite tests?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER - The rifle previously identified as Commission Exhibit No. 139?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. SPECTER - At what position--what was the basis for your positioning of that rifle during those tests?

Mr. FRAZIER - To position the rifle, we selected boxes of the same size and contour as boxes shown in a photograph or rather in two photographs, reportedly taken by the police department at Dallas shortly after the assassination.

We placed these boxes in their relative position in front of the window spacing them from left to right, according to the photographs which were furnished to us, and also placing them up against the window, with one of them resting on the window ledge as it was shown in the photographs.

Mr. SPECTER - In addition to the placement of the boxes, were there any other guides which you had for reconstructing the position of the rifle to the way which you believed it to have been held on November 22, 1963?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; there was one physical obstruction in the building which could not be moved consisting of two vertical pipes located just at the left side of the sixth floor window. These prevented me or anyone who was shooting from that window from moving any further to the left.

The position of the rifle, of course, had to be such that it could be sighted out through the window, using the telescopic sight high enough above the window ledge so that the muzzle of the weapon would clear the window ledge, and low enough in position so that the bottom of the window, which was only partially raised, would not interfere with a view through the telescopic sight, which is approximately 2 inches higher than the actual bore of the weapon.

Mr. SPECTER - Did you position the rifle further, based on information provided to you concerning the testimony of certain eyewitnesses at the assassination scene concerning what they observed?

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Whoa Nelly! That is Shaneyfelt at the window with the rifle, not Frazier!

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Mr. SPECTER - Is that the distance depicted on Commission Exhibit No. 492, which has heretofore been introduced in evidence?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0117a.htm

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Yep! That one really tells us a lot!

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Mr. SPECTER. Yes; stand-in.

Mr. Shaneyfelt, for purposes of illustration would you produce the photograph at this time showing the mounting of the motion picture camera on the weapon found on the sixth floor

I now hand you a photograph which is being marked as Commission Exhibit No. 887 and ask you to state for the record who that is a picture of, and what else is in the photograph.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 887 for identification.)

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Commission Exhibit No. 887 is a picture of me that was taken on May 24, 1964. My location was at the sixth floor window of the Texas School Book Depository that we have designated as our control point. I have the rifle that is the assassination rifle mounted on a tripod, and on the rifle is mounted an Arriflex 16-mm. motion picture camera, that is alined to take photographs through the telescopic sight.

This Arriflex motion picture camera is commonly known as a reflex camera in that as you view through the viewfinder a prism allows you to view directly through the lens system as you are taking your photographs so that as I took the photographs looking into the viewfinder I was also looking through the scope and seeing the actual image that was being recorded on the film.

Mr. SPECTER. How did you determine the level and angle at which to hold the rifle?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. I placed the rifle in the approximate position based on prior knowledge of where the boxes were stacked and the elevation of the window and other information that was furnished to me by representatives of the Commission.

Mr. DULLES. You used the same boxes, did you, that the assassin had used?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. No; I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. Were those boxes used by Mr. Frazier.

Mr. SHANEYFELT. They were used by Mr. Frazier and used in making the measurements. I had to use a tripod because of the weight of the camera and placed the elevation of the rifle at an approximate height in a position as though the boxes were there.

Mr. SPECTER. Was Mr. Frazier present at the time you positioned the rifle on the tripod?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; he was.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he assist in describing for you or did you have an opportunity to observe the way he held a rifle to ascertain the approximate position of the rifle at that time?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct.

Mr. SPECTER. May it please the Commission, we will, with Mr. Frazier, indicate, the reasons he held the rifle in the way he did to approximate the way we believe it was held at the time of the assassination.

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Shaneyfelt: My location was at the sixth floor window of the Texas School Book Depository

Frazier: Mr. FRAZIER - I was stationed at the window on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building at the southeast corner of the building.

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Sure must have gotten crowded at that window!

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Mr. SHANEYFELT. After Mr. Frazier had stationed the car at this point, I then went to the position of Mr. Zapruder. Based on his motion pictures, a comparison of the photograph that we made with the photograph from the film, I was able to state that because of the relative position of the car in the street and in relation to other objects in the background, it corresponded to frame 161 of the motion picture.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have on Exhibit No. 888 a reproduction of frame 161?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; the upper left-hand corner is a reproduction of the frame 161 of the Zapruder motion picture. The picture on the upper right is a photograph that I made with a speed graphic camera from Zapruder's position of the car reestablished in that location. The photograph in the lower left-hand corner, is a photograph of the view through the rifle scope that Mr. Frazier saw at the time he positioned the car there. This is the view that you would obtain from looking through the rifle scope from the sixth floor window.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the automobile in exactly the same position at the time of the taking of the "photograph through rifle scope" and the "photograph from reenactment"?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; approximately the same. We went through all stations with Mr. Frazier in the window and I took photographs from Mr. Zapruder's position, and once establishing a frame position, we marked it clearly in the street. After we had taken all of the photographs from Zapruder's position, we then took the car back, and went to the sixth floor window and mounted the motion picture camera on the rifle. These photographs were made by rolling the car in the same position based on the marks we had in the street so it was as accurate as could be done in the same position.

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Oh, now I see! The photo of you (Mr. Shaneyfelt) at the window of the TSDB was just to show us how well you and the others positioned everything.

Or else to blow smoke up our arse one!

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*With this little "slicky boy" move the WC created a large survey plat which showed positions and angles to "Point A", on the map/plat.

Previous survey plats showed lines drawn to the impact point for shot#1, however even that copy of the other survey data as presented into evidence, is reduced to the extent that one can not distinguish between the fact that the SS Plat is drawn to Shot#1 whereas the WC Survey Plat in drawn to "Point A", which was located by the WC shortly prior to impact point for the first shot.

ALL survey work (Time/Life--SS/FBI (1 &2) demonstrate the impact point for shot#1, with the downward angles drawn onto the survey plat.

The WC made this work disappear and thereafter "blend" in to "Point A"!

In addition, of course, to making shot# 3 impact point disappear as well.

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So, if one can make the third/last/final shot disappear by merely not reproducing and presenting copies of frames of the Z-film which may contain evidence of this shot, exactly how would one go about making evidence of the first shot disappear? (in addition to deletion from the previously conducted survey information)

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol18_0017a.htm

Last time that I checked, 208/209/210/& 211 should follow 207!

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West and Breneman were give enlargements of Zframes by Life to

use in their studies. Did West retain these color enlargements.

Breneman commented that the frames did not match their plat.

Jack

Mr. FRAZIER - On Commission Exhibit No. 892, also marked frame No. 207, the car was moved forward under the tree to the point where the spot on the Presidential stand-in's back just became visible beyond the foliage of the tree. I had the car stopped at that point so that this photograph could be made there.

On Commission Exhibit No. 893, also marked frame 210, we have the photograph made at the adjusted position to accommodate the 10-inch difference in height between the stand-in and the actual position of the wound above the street and on the President's body.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol18_0051b.htm

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol18_0052a.htm

When one utilizes a "sleight-of-hand" maneuver in which a 10 inch differential in vertical height of target can be transposed into a lineal change in the target position along Elm St., then it is no wonder that Breneman may have recognized that certain things did not match up.

Mr. West was merely of the opinion that these people were generally stupid, and had no idea as to what they were doing.

Of course this too changed when it was explained to him the reasons for the "adjusted position" manipulation.

He really got a good laugh at this one afterwards.

After Mr. West informed me of how the FBI/WC let most of the air out of the front tires of the re-enactment vehicle, and aired up the rear tires as much as possible, I also demonstrated how this little episode was part of how the "Thru Kennedy to Connaly" trajectory was an integral part of this manipulation of the elevations and angles.

The WC went through the motions (and filming) of their re-enactment so many times that Mr. West lost count.

He indicated that it was probably close to a dozen times that the car & occupants went down Elm St.

And, in many instances, they did not even "drive" the car to get it to it's EXACT position.

He stated that members of the re-enactment group would actually push the car the few inches (+/-) which someone from either the Z-position and/or the TSDB window would transmit by radio.

With this many "re-enactments", the WC was (from the multitude of photo's) extract those photographs with which they created the exhibits of their so-called reconstruction of the assassination.

There are several indicators of their actions.

1. Persons in the background: In many cases, those persons in the background of the various re-enactment photo's, as supposedly taken from the Zapruder position, have completely changed.

An excellent indicator of this is demonstrated by those persons in the backgound for re-enactment frames 207 & 210. As well as many frames thereafter.

2. In certain frames, there are full indicators that the re-enactment photograph was not even taken from the Z-position.

These re-enactment photo's appear to have been taken from the camera which was mounted on a tripod and was stationed on the steps which lead up to the concrete abuttment.

This is evidenced by the angular difference in position of the tree limbs in the background at/around Z210, in relationship to the concrete/block wall, as well as other items within the background of the photographs.

Those persons (primarily of the WC) who are responsible for manipulation of the facts and evidence, appear to have forgotten that once a lie is made, additional lies, to cover the first lie may be required.

Therein ( lies) much of the manipulations of the WC re-enactment of the assassination, which includes the "adjusted position" as well as the photographic re-enactment manipulations.

Much of which is directly associated with and attributable to the slight relocation of the road sign, as well as new stripes having been painted onto Elm St. just prior to the assassination re-enactment by the WC.

Whoever dreamed up this idea, certainly forgot to take into consideration the position of background items in the Z film as well as how movement of the road sign also affected the top elevation of the sign and the line-of-sight from Mr. Zapruder's position and height in relationship to items in the background of the film.

Needless to say, many mistakes/errors were made during the WC re-enactment of the assassination, and many of these items have long been known and pointed out.

It is the "WHY?" that continues to mystify and confuse!

Tom

P.S. Still only one shooter, who by the way had more than adequate time to get off the 3 shots fired!

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  • 1 month later...

Close-ups of the curb section in the estimated area of where Jean Hill and Mary Moorman were standing on the South side of Elm, taken last week.

Mrs. HILL - Then, he asked me I was asked did I know that a bullet struck at my feet and I said, "No; I didn't." And he said, "What do you think that dust was?" And I said, "I didn't see any dust." And I told Mark Lane that the Times Herald did run a picture in the paper of a concrete scar where a bullet had hit right where we were standing, which is evident to anybody that had an issue of the Times Herald.

Mr. SPECTER - Did you see that concrete?

Mrs. HILL - I didn't go back down there.

Mr. SPECTER - Do you know whether or not a bullet did hit that concrete?

Mrs. HILL - As I say, I saw the picture in the newspaper.

Mr. SPECTER - Aside from seeing it in the newspaper, do you know anything about that?

Mrs. HILL - No; other than what the man said he saw out of the window of the courthouse, the Secret Service man said and it struck at my feet, other than that--I don't know.

I believe Hill is confusing a photo of the concrete by the manhole cover, which was ~100 yards further down Elm from where she was standing.

Tom - do you have the original survey material for the curb strike in this area?

post-675-1142374603_thumb.jpg

post-675-1142374641_thumb.jpg

post-675-1142376289_thumb.jpg

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Close-ups of the curb section in the estimated area of where Jean Hill and Mary Moorman were standing on the South side of Elm, taken last week.
Mrs. HILL - Then, he asked me I was asked did I know that a bullet struck at my feet and I said, "No; I didn't." And he said, "What do you think that dust was?" And I said, "I didn't see any dust." And I told Mark Lane that the Times Herald did run a picture in the paper of a concrete scar where a bullet had hit right where we were standing, which is evident to anybody that had an issue of the Times Herald.

Mr. SPECTER - Did you see that concrete?

Mrs. HILL - I didn't go back down there.

Mr. SPECTER - Do you know whether or not a bullet did hit that concrete?

Mrs. HILL - As I say, I saw the picture in the newspaper.

Mr. SPECTER - Aside from seeing it in the newspaper, do you know anything about that?

Mrs. HILL - No; other than what the man said he saw out of the window of the courthouse, the Secret Service man said and it struck at my feet, other than that--I don't know.

I believe Hill is confusing a photo of the concrete by the manhole cover, which was ~100 yards further down Elm from where she was standing.

Tom - do you have the original survey material for the curb strike in this area?

There is absolutely ZERO/NATA/ZILCH survey information related to any purported bullet strike on the street curb in this location/vicinity.

This is to include ALL THREE (or 4) of the survey works:

1. Time/Life---------11/25/63

2. US Secret Service w/FBI Assistance-----12/ (2, 3, 4, & 5th) 63

3. FBI-------------2/7/63

4. WC

And even though Mr. West sent me copies of a newspaper photo which claimed to show Dallas Police looking for bullets & bullet marks down at the manhole inlet, there was no survey work done for any such bullet strike there either.

The one and only "curb strike" was the Tague location.

If not incorrect, that is the "self-proclaimed" drawing as made by a researcher, which you have posted.

Rest assured, Mr. West never made any reference to any "curb strike" in the area designated.

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