Dealy Plaza Survey Data

Thomas H. Purvis · March 20, 2006

I did pose a minor question, but I'm not sure it was really answered, so to elaborate a bit and repose Q:
Tom, I haven't 'made my mind up' (as if if I did it would make any difference to the truth either way) in looking at the autopsy and other material I can't shake the notion of a shot from the south.

However, I try to be objective and do follow your threads with careful reading (as far as I can with the volume of it). So, I'm not 'against' your premise re the first shot.

__________

with regards to the survey (and you may very well have answered this question, but I can't find a specific sentence that addresses it particularly) when I (long ago now) worked as a survey assistant to a sureveyor in south australia, we roamed statewide on a number of divers projects, and I can't remember (except for a time when we simply guided a bulldozer many kilometers on a straight line through the bush to establish a fence line so levels were not a factor) any instance where one of the first things we did was to not locate a previously determined level and location, which ultimately related to a very initial level established at various points throughout the state.

We'd never go anywhere and just start shooting levels and angles off a object existing or created by us.

This info would be in the very initial worksheet or job description or whatever it's called that the surveyor receives and studies often before arriving on site. This point is located and THEN nails are driven into trees etc. This is partly to be consistent and 'provable', but also to aid relocation in case some 'naughty boy' (or girl) comes along with a pair of pliars to pull the nail out)

I know it's a minor point but do you have the initial job description?

(another point, as survey assistant I was never in personal posession of any of this data, in OZ and I presume in the US this stuff is 'legal' and important, forming (hopefully) indisputable facts. Surveying is an honourable profession of critical importance to a society obsessed with personal land rights.)

As you have indicated, in "Legal" land survey work (prior to the GPS system), in event one required a legal survey and the closest & only TRUE established survey control marker/post/etc; was 50 miles away, one had to start at the 50-mile away established control marker and thereafter work towards the area to be surveyed. Cutting line-of-sight through the brush if necessary, traversing around impassable points such as mountains, large water bodies, etc.

As one went along, they progressively established control stations in which to continue to carry forward the information necessary to derive the POINT OF BEGINNING for the actual area to be surveyed in.

And of course, due to the trig function; interpolation; and rounding up/and or down, the farther from the actual established control marker one moved, and the more calculations required, the more error was interjected into the final product.

In a general "area" survey such as was the Dealy Plaza work, it is not necessary to find a survey control marker with which to establish accuracy.

Therefore, in event one desires to do so they can pick any "Fixed Object'(s)" in or near the area to be surveyed, and thus work from these established points.

In essence, this is how all of the actual survey work in DealyPlaza was accomplished.

However, due to the various survey's, there were changes.

The Time/Life Survey work dealt with no "true" elevations relative to Sea Level, etc.

Instead, this survey merely dealt with the elevation differences between given points of survey, as referenced from the established control stations.

As can be seen from the provided copies of the Time/Life survey work, it was extremely "crude" in it's content as well as context, and the work was obviously not done to an accuracy which would ultimately be recognized as much more than what one could do with a tape measure.

As example is the 0.7 foot elevation "bust" on the height of the window ledge of the sixth floor window above the concrete sidewalk at the base of the building.

Mr. Breneman's information would appear to indicate that this height was 60 feet---even.

Survey work done for the US Secret Service, beginning December 2, 1963, established an elevation of 430.2 feet for the sidewalk at the base of the TSDB, and an elevation of 490.9 for the top of the window sill for the sixth floor window, for a true height difference of 60.7 feet.

Many years ago, any survey work carred to the 0.1 foot in either horizontal or vertical distance, was considered to be a "Legal" survey.

As one looks at the Time/Life survey work, it should be quite obvious that even in 1963, a couple of high school kids with a long tape measure as well as a higher math (trig) training, could have done better than this had they wanted to.

An item of most importance which the Time/Life Survey gave us was the points which were utilized as the temporary survey control stations.

During the work for the US Secret Service, which was begun on 12/2/63, (in which Mr. Breneman apparantly played no part as well as not even being aware of) Mr. West suvey work utilized these exact same temporary control stations. However, from some established control point, true (above sea level) elevations were assigned to these stations.

Thereafter, we have the accuracy of survey work which would be required for the work to be considered as "Legal" survey, as the work was carried to the 0.1 foot in distance as well as to the "second" in angular determination.

And in that regards, a temporary Survey Control Point on the street curb of Elm St. was assigned an elevation, just as was the nail which had been driven into the street by the Time/Life Survey crew and which identified the location of impact for the first shot, and which is identified as "K" on the original Time/Life Survey.

With the "quality" of finished product which Mr. Breneman secured for Mr. West, it is fully understandable as to why a "re-survey" was conducted.

Breneman utilized the "K" position for virtually every angle and measurement.

In many ways, this is good for those who are attempting to re-construct certain aspects of the exact distance from "K" to the corners of the road signs, etc.

However, when attempting to establish the exact dimensions of items which are farther away and for which the anglular difference is extremely small, it certainly makes it difficult for someone who is doing this by trig function to come up with the established and true measurement.

Such appears to be the instance for the Time/Life survey and the one and only yellow mark identified on the Elm St. Curb in relationship to the Z-313 head shot (which will be presented soon).

Who knows? the rationale behind why the Time/Life survey work is so lacking??. Perhaps it is all that they wanted?

Whatever the reason, the person who drew the survey plat (Paul Hardin) could have done nothing better with the limited information with which he was provided.

And, as you have stated, few persons on the survey crew would have seen all of the data/information.

The "instrument man" which was Breneman's designation, merely determines the horizontal and vertical angular differences and gives this information to the Party Chief who logs it in his book.

The Chain Crew measures the "slope distance" and provides this informtion to the Party Chief who logs it in his book.

Then, at some point, someone does the math necessary to determine the actual distances, etc;, and it is usually done by someone else.

In the case of the Time/Life survey, virtually all of this information is "crowded" into a single drawing from which the control station was the nail driven into the pavement at Elm St. at the "K"/first shot impact position.

From this point, and thus radiating out in virtually a full 360 degree circle are the lines which represent the angular line-of-sight to the various identified objects in the background.

"(as if if I did it would make any difference to the truth either way)"

Truth is a "perception" which we accept based upon the available knowledge at the time. As knowledge of a specific item increases, our perception of "truth" must (or at least should) also change/adjust to accept what are now identifiable facts.

As recalled, truth was once that the world was "flat" and the earth was the center of the universe.

Tom

Thomas H. Purvis · March 20, 2006

The Survey'(s) & their Survey Plats

Since this topic heading is dedicated to Mr. Robert West who was ultimately responsible for ALL of the survey work related to the JFK assassination, perhaps it would be of some benefit, for the sake of history, to present the exact information relative to the survey work and subsequently generated survey plats.

1. November 26, 1963, a survey and survey plat was completed for Time/Life Magazine

2. December 2/3/4/& 5th, survey work was completed for the US Secret Service, with the generated survey plat being dated 12/5/1963

3. Minor survey work was done for the FBI on/about Februrary 7, 1964. The Survey Plat which was generated as a result of this work is merely a modified version of the Secret Service Survey Plat of 12/5/63.

4. The WC Survey work was completed on May 24, 1963, and the actual date of completion of the WC Survey Plat was May 31, 1963.

5. On June 25, 1963, the FBI had Mr. West create another "modified" version of the original Secret Service Survey Plat. There was no known actual survey work conducted in association with generation of this survey plat, as Mr. West basically relied on previously obtained survey data.

In addition to the actual survey work done for creation of the various survey plats, Mr. West and Paul D. Hardin were, on 3/16/64*, contacted by US Secret Service John Joe Howlet and directed to determine the "EXACT" position of two of the road signs in Dealy Plaza, in regards to their exact position relative to the street curb, as well as the exact measurements of the signs and sign posts.

*It should be noted that this is the exact date on which the Autopsy Surgeons were being questioned by the WC, and while all "eyes" were watching the WC and the autopsy surgeons, Mr. West was, unknowingly, gaining information for the WC relative to generation of the later WC misrepresentation of facts related to their re-enactment of the assassination.

Progressively, I will make an attempt to "walk through" the genesis of the survey work and how it assisted in "changing history" by the ultimate actions of the FBI and the WC.

Hopefully, an open discussion and presentation of the work of Mr. Robert West may provide the information required that those who have interest in the actual facts of the events in Dealy Plaza, will no longer waste time in attempting to determine exactly WHO does one believe when it comes to this subject.

TIME LIFE#1.

Survey completed for Time/Life with the actual survey work being done generally on 11/26/63, and the subsequent survey plat being dated 11/26/63.

The survey plat for this survey was generated on a small scale in which 1-inch = 20 feet.

The survey was extremely limited in scope and provided only the most basic of information relative to an extremely limited drawing of the Elm St. Dealy Plaza area.

Absolutely no street elevations contour lines, etc; are provided, and even the elevation/height of 60 feet from the sixth floor window ledge of the TSDB to the sidewalk below was later corrected to an accuracy of 60.7 feet for subsequent survey work.

2. Firing angles and distances provided on this survey are in fact the angle and distance from the sixth floor window ledge to an impact point on the street where it was determined was the position of JFK at given/identified points of the Z-film.

The person responsible for this work DID NOT take into consideration the actual elevation of JFK/his head above the elevation of Elm St. at the point identified.

3. What is of most critical importance as regards this survey lies in the establishement of various SCP's (survey control points/stations) for thereafter identification of distances and directions to given points to be surveyed in. These SCP's are referenced in the survey notes with their exact distance/direction from fixed objects such as trees, concrete structures, etc; which do not move, and can thereafter be readily found and re-utilized again as an established "Control Station" for any future work. Thus establishing that all work, to include future work, begins from known and established points.

Thus is the case of the importance of several of the SCP's from the Time/Life survey work, as these established points provided the "common ground" for determination of information which is actually never seen/provided on the finalized survey plat.

The next attachment represents that information relative to the first shot fired in the assassination of JFK, as determined during the Time/Life survey work of 11/26/63.

For reasons which will ultimately be explained, I have, as usual, utilized "white-out" to delete information from this portion of the survey plat. However, said information is relative ONLY to the other shots fired, and portions of that information have already been presented, just as I will ultimately present ALL of the pertinent information relative to the Time/Life issue.

It is specifically noted as to the limited extent of actual survey information which was obtained in preparation of this very "plain" survey plat.

There are absolutely no street elevations for Elm St, as well as other surrounding areas, and virtually all of the permanent type identifiable objects in Dealy Plaza are omitted with the exception of a single tree and as will be later shown, the Zapruder position and the road sign located between the position of Zapruder & JFK.

This is the work, as referenced by the Breneman letter, on which he gathered the information, and as identified in his letter, the mark "K" for the impact point of the first shot fired is correct.

However, I might add that I would like to see someone take this drawing and thereafter derive the Z-204/206 ending point of trajectory line which I long ago drew onto the WC Survey Plat, and which has been the topic of much discussion.

In fact, the platted position of "K" for the first shot, as presented by Mr. Breneman in this actual survey, is not even near the center of Elm St as is the impact position of the previously presented Z-204/206 controversy survey plat.

The Z-204/206 impact position for the first shot fired was determined by myself utilizing the SCP's as established during this Time/Life survey, and thereafter plotting their positions onto the full scale WC Survey Plat, and then from these determined locations thereafter determining the impact location for the first shot fired, as relative to the considerably more detailed WC Survey Plat.

And, since Mr. West and his crew later utilized the nail driven into Elm St. for the Time/Life Survey impact point of the first shot, as a reference point for much of the SS Survey work, it provides a "carryover" means of verification of the impact point for this first shot.

And, since it would appear that I am the only person sitting out here on the end of this limb (all by myself & lonesome) who claims that the impact point for the first shot fired was in the Z-204/206 locations, and Mr. Breneman would have had little if any idea as to what position "K" actually fell, relative to both Z-frame number as well as location on later surveys, then the "provenance" of that copy of the WC Survey plat which demonstrates a line of fire for the first shot imminating from the sixth floor of the TSDB and ending in virtually the center of Elm St on the WC Survey Plat at the small "X" which was created by the "arc" of a compass from the established SCP's, would seem quite demonstratably clear,

What is of importance in regards to this "first shot" of the Time/Life work, is

That Time/Life, utilizing the original Z-film in their possession, was able to, with apparantly little difficulty, able to demonstratably identy a position on Elm St. for the point at which the first shot fired struck JFK.

In Mr. Breneman's purported letter, he states that the distance from the sixth floor window to the point of impact on Elm St. for the first shot fired was 156 feet.

Certainly, most would tend to take the word of someone who was there as opposed to some "wannabe" researcher who claims that Mr. Breneman is incorrect.

However, when that "wannabe" has in hand the physical drawings generated, as well as the notes made during the survey, perhaps some "new light" is revealed.

As stated, the 156 feet is in fact the "slope/chain" distance from the point on Elm St, back to the bottom corner of the TSDB directly below the sixth floor window.

The "Slant" distance, which is in fact that distance from the sixth floor window to the point of impact on Elm St. was determined to be 170 feet.

However, this "slant" distance is also actually incorrect for an aiming point for the head of JFK which was several feet above the actually plotted point on the street.

Nevertheless, Mr. Breneman's reference to the 156 foot distance, is indicative of the fact that he neither had in his possession a copy of the actual Time/Life Survey Plat which demonstrates the 170 foot "SLANT" distance, as well as the fact that he also apparantly had no input into the trig functions which were utilized to convert the survey information (slope distance & vertical angle) to the Slant Distance.

Showtime again!

This portion of the Time/Life survey plat demonstrates the reported view from the Zapruder position to impact position on Elm St. for the first shot fired. ("K").

Two items are of note:

1. According to this drawing, the impact of the first shot to JFK, it would appear, could be seen just prior to the point that he disappeared behind the leading edge of the road sign.

In this regard, one must ask exactly how it was that Breneman/Time-Life/whoever, could see and determine, something that we can no longer determine today.

2. The distance of "128' " from the Z-position is a straight line distance which runs from the forward edge of the top of the concrete pedestal on which Zapruder was standing, to the "K" position on Elm St.

It IS NOT the distance from the Zapruder/camera height above the pedestal to the "K" positon.

John Dolva · March 20, 2006

Hoping not to distract or delay the presentation

Tom, this thread, as well as the ones by you on genealogy, the rifle, the bullet, trajectory, wounds and ballistics, etc. much appreciated.

I thought things were probably as you describe re survey purposes. I suppose should I have the entire body of documents I could answer this in time, but is it posssible to see an origin of error in the survey that would account for later errors?

What I mean could be illustrated by an error anyone in the world can see by looking on a map of australia where the border between south australia and victoria has a 'kink' in it about halfway where two survey teams one from north and one from south didn't meet as planned, so rather than redoing it they made the error official and true. So all subsequent surveys in this area are technically wrong but legally correct. Not that it really means much to anyone today.

Anyway, this error was made right at the start (I think from memory a calibration error), that was then carried through by one team all the way to the supposed meeting place. So could an error have been made that resulted in the wrong measurements and then subsequent individuals perhaps not really knowing what they were doing, attempted to correct this without actually correcting the original error. So the last effort was correct while the sequence of production had undocumented corrections or corrections that were not regarded for the purposes important to detail, so what one is looking at here is an incomplete history and perhaps not a 'let's deceive' directive?

Thomas H. Purvis · March 20, 2006

Hoping not to distract or delay the presentation
Tom, this thread, as well as the ones by you on genealogy, the rifle, the bullet, trajectory, wounds and ballistics, etc. much appreciated.

I thought things were probably as you describe re survey purposes. I suppose should I have the entire body of documents I could answer this in time, but is it posssible to see an origin of error in the survey that would account for later errors?

What I mean could be illustrated by an error anyone in the world can see by looking on a map of australia where the border between south australia and victoria has a 'kink' in it about halfway where two survey teams one from north and one from south didn't meet as planned, so rather than redoing it they made the error official and true. So all subsequent surveys in this area are technically wrong but legally correct. Not that it really means much to anyone today.

Anyway, this error was made right at the start (I think from memory a calibration error), that was then carried through by one team all the way to the supposed meeting place. So could an error have been made that resulted in the wrong measurements and then subsequent individuals perhaps not really knowing what they were doing, attempted to correct this without actually correcting the original error. So the last effort was correct while the sequence of production had undocumented corrections or corrections that were not regarded for the purposes important to detail, so what one is looking at here is an incomplete history and perhaps not a 'let's deceive' directive?

Being thoroughly familiar with such "kinks" in survey, we have that all the time down here in the South, as well as virtually everywhere else.

If one reviews the history of our various States and their arguments over the EXACT state line boundary, they are aware of how such actions have, and continue to create problems.

When one surveys from one established "Monument"* to a given Section Corner, and then goes to another established "Monument"* and surveys to the exact same Section Corner, they will come out at different locations which could easily vary by 15 to 20 feet.

This is merely an end result of the established errors which were long ago made when these "Monuments" were placed.

*To us, a monument is an established Survey Control point/marker/etc; which was placed in the ground by the USGS years ago. Even though we now know that they are all in "error", they nevertheless represent the Legal starting point for a survey, from which one must work. These Monuments were frequently established/set in a position which represented the given intersection point of four different Sections of land.

With a "SECTION" being a given 160 acre area.

We have down here, Section lines that have been established by different survey's, utilizing separate Monuments as the beginning of the survey, and these section lines do not even connect to one another.

As does most of the world no doubt.

The "Margin of Error" for the survey work in Dealy Plaza was greatly diminished due to the fact that Mr. West & Company, utilized the exact same beginning points of reference and established SCP's from the original Time/Life Survey. ( the mark of a good surveyor I might add)

And most importantly, the nail which was driven into the asphalt of Elm St. at the "K"/impact point for shot#1 on the Time/Life Survey was a point of reference from which virtually ALL other temporary survey control stations were established.

Were it not for this, then one would have trouble in "EXACTLY" re-establishing many of those items in Dealy Plaza which have been ABSOLUTELY & INTENTIONALLY moved/re-located/eliminated.

This is why, with the current survey notes which Mr. West provided to me, were one to obtain authorization to do so, Dealy Plaza could be re-constructed back, virtually exactly, to it's 11/22/63 configuration, complete with road signs; lamp posts; yellow marks on the curb; manhole and inlet covers; correct elevation differences; etc; etc; etc.

The great majority of this accurate survey data was obtained during the three days of survey work in December, 1963 when Mr. West did the work and assassination re-enactment for the US Secret Service.

And, fortunately, this work was done PRIOR to anyone seeing the need to begin moving and/or elimination of many items.

Very little actual "area" survey work was done for the WC re-enactment, as this represented primarily that work associated with the positioning of the JFK stand-in, etc.

However, Mr. West did, during this work, also establish a few other control points, some of which are on remaining "fixed" objects and have not changed, and the others of which represent "iron pins" driven down into the ground and for which few would be aware of and which would be difficult to locate without a general knowledge of their location and a metal detector.

He also completed the survey-in of all of the surrounding concrete structures, etc.

This is why, in event a reduced version of the WC drawing is authentic and done in a "single" copy, that it will also show virtually all of the surrounding concrete structures as well as trees and other surrounding items.

Therefore, the combined knowledge still exists to fully and accurately present virtually ALL of the details of how the WC assassination re-enactment is a complete and intentional misrepresentation of the facts.

They may have been "good & sneaky" lawyers, but they should have taken an elective course in Survey.

Had they done so, then they would have recognized the critical importance of survey notes and insured that these too were collected and thereafter made to "disappear".

So, in summary, the only fully recognized error (other than the previously referenced "street elevation 426" repetition, in the survey work, it would appear, is a "plotting error" due to inadequate information, which I will soon be presenting in regards to the yellow mark on the curb in the Time/Life survey work.

Question Answered?????

John Dolva · March 20, 2006

Than you, Tom. Yes, I believe so. Please continue.

partly what I wanted to see was: 'This is why, with the current survey notes which Mr. West provided to me, were one to obtain authorization to do so, Dealy Plaza could be re-constructed back, virtually exactly, to it's 11/22/63 configuration, complete with road signs; lamp posts; yellow marks on the curb; manhole and inlet covers; correct elevation differences; etc; etc; etc.'

thank's again

Thomas H. Purvis · March 20, 2006

John;

Will respond to your last post as soon as my scanner's brain catches up.

Not unlike myself, it is somewhat old and frequently forgetful as to what it's true purpose is.

In continuation of the "TIME/LIFE" Survey

For purposes which will be later demonstrated and hopefully explained, I have jumped "forward" in the Time/Life survey work to the last shot which is shown.

As Mr. Breneman has stated in his letter to whomever, impact point of the first shot to JFK was the previously identified position "K" which ultimately plots/plats out at what would be Z-204/206 (according to the WC identification of frames# locations on Elm St.)

The next shot to strike JFK, as stated by Mr. Breneman, and also as plotted on the Time/Life Survey Plat, was the position of "K1".

Attached is that portion of the Time/Life Survey which demonstrates this location.

Of note is the following:

One will see that, according to this survey plat, the impact point of "K1" is in direct alignment with the yellow mark on the street curb of Elm St. in the background.

From a review of the Z-film, one can easily see that this would appear to be "incorrect" at best.

However, rest assured that one should not always believe each and every item of the Z-film.

Nevertheless, the location of the yellow mark on the street curb was not changed for the WC work, and the Z-film depiction of where JFK was at the time of impact for this shot is quite correct.

This is easily verified by cross-checking the WC position for this shot with that position as established during the US Secret Service survey work of December 1963.

The US Secret Service Survey work and the WC survey work and placement of impact point for this, the Z-313 head shot, are exact and identical.

Therefore, it is my educated (our uneducated) opinion, that the error in alignment for the Zapruder to Z-313 impact location to yellow mark on street curb, derives from the person who made the survey plat (Paul Hardin" not having sufficient information to accurately position the yellow mark on the street curb.

From all available information, the location of this single yellow mark was determined strictly by turning an angle from the "K"/nail/first impact point position to the two edges of the yellow curb mark, and thereafter obtaining the distances.

With the previous identified problems associated with inaccuracies in elevations, as well as the extreme "closeness" of the two angles necessary to determine the actual position of this yellow mark, it bears all of the familiar "traits" of merely a plotting error due to it haveing been placed on the survey plat based on the "BEST EVIDENCE" available.

In later work, (US Secret Service Survey), Mr. West/survey personnel physically measured the exact lenght of this (& two more) of the yellow marks, as well as establishment of additional SCP's from which to more accurately survey in the position of these there yellow curb marks.

Portions of this survey work, which demonstrated this, were previously provided.

As an additional note, the "76" foot distance from Z to K1 is in fact a "slant" distance which originates at the leading edge of the top of the concrete pedestal on which Mr. Z was standing, and terminates at the K1 position on Elm St.

Therefore, it does not represent the "True" distance from the "eye" & position of Mr. Zapruder, to the actual K1 impact point.

Lastly, as previously stated, the 250 foot distance from "K1" "slope" back to the bottom corner of the TSDB was not the computed distance from the window to "K1".

This distance was in fact calculated to be 260'.

All of which is in fact incorrect due to the error in the actual height of the firing position above the street, as well as other apparant errors due to lack of accurate street elevations for the impact points on Elm St.

Thomas H. Purvis · March 20, 2006