Mafia Lovers

[Tim Gratz]

It ought to be obvious from other threads how much I detest Naziism.

I also detest organized crime. Although in all its history I do not believe OC killed as many innocent people as Nazi Germany did, nevertheless the bosses of OC were evil men. I think it is important to understand that evil does exist in this world.

That is why I believe the CIA's alliance with OC was reprehensible.

Dan Moldea wrote an article decrying the glamorization of OC in mass media.

Certainly the dons of OC were powerful, rich men, and power can be an attractive thing.

In that regard, in his recent book, "Dean and Me (A Love Story)", Jerry Lewis descibes " the inescapable presence of the mob in the nightclub/casino business. In this connection, Lewis confesses—or possibly boasts—that he knew and mostly liked Bugsy Siegel in Las Vegas, the Fischetti brothers, Tony Accardo, and Sam Giancana in Chicago, and Frank Costello and Lucky Luciano in New York. His verdict: 'I found the great majority of these guys to be men of their word, far less hypocritical about their businesses than most of the politicians of the day.'”

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article.asp?aid=12102069_1

Notice Lewis' values: who cares if these guys were vicious, cold-blooded killers, they were true to their word and not hypocrites! And Maheu would add that on top of that, Giancana was a good cook!

And of one thing (about the JFK assassination) I am sure of: there WAS OC involvement.

[Lee Forman]

It ought to be obvious from other threads how much I detest Naziism.

I also detest organized crime. Although in all its history I do not believe OC killed as many innocent people as Nazi Germany did, nevertheless the bosses of OC were evil men. I think it is important to understand that evil does exist in this world.

That is why I believe the CIA's alliance with OC was reprehensible.

Dan Moldea wrote an article decrying the glamorization of OC in mass media.

Certainly the dons of OC were powerful, rich men, and power can be an attractive thing.

In that regard, in his recent book, "Dean and Me (A Love Story)", Jerry Lewis descibes " the inescapable presence of the mob in the nightclub/casino business. In this connection, Lewis confesses—or possibly boasts—that he knew and mostly liked Bugsy Siegel in Las Vegas, the Fischetti brothers, Tony Accardo, and Sam Giancana in Chicago, and Frank Costello and Lucky Luciano in New York. His verdict: 'I found the great majority of these guys to be men of their word, far less hypocritical about their businesses than most of the politicians of the day.'”

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article.asp?aid=12102069_1

Notice Lewis' values: who cares if these guys were vicious, cold-blooded killers, they were true to their word and not hypocrites! And Maheu would add that on top of that, Giancana was a good cook!

And of one thing (about the JFK assassination) I am sure of: there WAS OC involvement.

Tim,

Limited reading done on OC per se, plus of course films and documentaries, etc. What occurs to me is that there has been significant 'glorification' of the whole OC lifestyle - and it is very popular today - case in point was the popular show 'The Sopranos,' and 'Analyze this, that and the other ting.' There is at least one website I came across where you can find a large number of folks seeking to be recruited by the OC - they provide their email addresses and experience [i have experience as a sniper. Discrete. Seeking assignments, etc.]. It's truly amazing. And I do wonder personally about whether some of this 'genre' in film and media is simply some very sophisticated propaganda.

Anyway - the reason for my reply is some of the reading I was doing on WWII and Italy [plus a comment made in the film Catch 22 which I watched for the first time - loved it]. From a cultural perspective - it seemed to be essentially - Facism, Communism or Capitalism - who gives a xxxx - I'll support the side which will provide me with the most benefit, or the side that seems to be winning.

Furthermore - your post fails to take into account the local support in Italy during WWII of the Mafioso - who literally ruled Italy in scattered territories, much like a Feudal system. Without their cooperation and colloboration, many of the successful invasions would never have happened. US Intel alliances with OC began much earlier than Johnny Rosselli. And we were well aligned with the Corsican crowd.

When decisions are made to move into a Country - seems to me that you have to take into account a lot of factors - especially if you are looking to topple 'the powers that be.' And in order to do that, you look for alternate sources of power. In the case of many of the drug producing Countries of the world - you would be working with what are essentially drug barons. Hence drugs for guns, etc. Are the Drug related power players of South America and Asia not OC?

I am still reading McCoy's Politics of Heroin, btw...

http://infocollective.org/mccoyabstract.html

In the film 'The Rocketeer,' we have a bunch of Italian OC learning that the man funding their operations is a Nazi. Declaring their allegiance to the US, they turn on the Nazi. That's Hollywood. As per a History Channel special, the codes of honor and the ethics and 'omerta' - the integrity of the old school OC - this went out violently during the 1940s - 1950s and was replaced by a new breed of younger, sharper, and more cut-throat hoodlums.

http://users.aol.com/whizkid01/hist.html

At the turn of the century the American Mafia was different from the Sicilian Mafia in a number of ways. The European Mafia was founded on a sense of loyalty and respect for culture, family and the Sicilian heritage. The Mafia was to protect its' members interests and grant them freedom in business in exchange for absolute loyalty and submission to the "family". The Sicilian Mafia was based on the belief that justice, honor and vengeance are for a man to take care of, not for a government to take care of. The Sicilian mafia valued the code of "omerta" , the code of honor and silence and strictly adhered to the ruling that this was a secret society, open only to those who shared Sicilian blood. In contrast to the noble Sicilian mafia, the American mafia has proved to be a conniving, cold hearted organization. The American Mafia consists of a large group of glorified thieves, pickpockets and murderers. Although it began with the adoption of much of the Sicilian heritage it has evolved into an organization that's sole purpose is to make money using any illegal means possible. The members of the American mafia use extortion, bootlegging, prostitution, gambling, kidnapping, and murder to achieve their ends.

Anyway, FWIW - the allegiance you are speaking of, in broader terms, enabled OC to expand and become the powerful force it is today, seems to me, through a form of interdependence.

- lee

[Ron Ecker]

Lewis confesses—or possibly boasts—that he knew and mostly liked Bugsy Siegel in Las Vegas, the Fischetti brothers, Tony Accardo, and Sam Giancana in Chicago, and Frank Costello and Lucky Luciano in New York.

Jerry Lewis? Now you’ve done it. Anything Lewis “confesses” or “boasts” about is probably total crap. He recently had something interesting (and typically self-aggrandizing) to say about the Kennedys and Marilyn Monroe. More on that in a moment.

I’ll never forget a TV talk show years ago on which several guests one night included Lewis and Muhammad Ali in his prime. The guests were talking about some serious subject (I forget what), and Lewis, wanting to make a point to Ali, and simultaneously to let the audience know that he, Jerry Lewis, is friends with everyone of importance, turned to Ali and said, “Look, you and I have been friends for a long time – ” To which Ali immediately responded, “I never met you before in my life before tonight.” Lewis said lamely, “Well, you know what I mean.” And Ali let him off the hook by saying, “Yeah, I know what you mean.”

Did you catch O’Reilly interviewing Lewis a few months ago? Lewis said that he knew that the Kennedy brothers were not having any affair with Marilyn Monroe. O’Reilly asked him how he knew, and Lewis said, “Because she was having an affair with me.” O’Reilly said, “Oh really?”, and Lewis (he was being serious) said yes really, and added something cute about “it wasn’t bad.”

O’Reilly didn’t pursue it, probably thinking, as I was, that Lewis is full of crap.

[Scott Deitche]

IMO There is really no moral equivalent here. Wiseguys do not, as a rule, kill people for the sake of killing- of the hundreds of gangland hits I can think of off the top of my head, ony two or three come to mind of innocent people- cases of mistaken identity. GUys that are whacked are whacked for a reason. You do business with them, you skate the thin end of the wedge.

Now that's not to say that gangster do not make their money off innocent people as well- that's because they are criminals. They will steal from anybody and partner up with anybody.

But it's money, not racist ideology, that's the driving force. You cannot in any real or philosophical sense relate a mobster and a Nazi. Or in the case of your subject title, someone who likes the mob and a Nazi.

To take this a step further many mob guys go through their entire cirminal career without killing anyone- I can tell you for a fact that many Tampa wiseguys, like the Scaglione brothers, ran bookmaking and lottery. Was it right? no , it was illegal. Was it the same as rounding up people and hsipping them off to gas chambers? No.

Of course I'm not a moral absolutist, so in a way I can see if you feel the equivalency was there.

People like the mob idea for the same reaons as they like Western outlaws. It's a glimpse into a part of the human psyche that 99.9% of us would never delve into on our own. And then there's the whole cultural thing of the ethnic neighborhoods and areas where ethnic crminal groups emerged from.

I happen to have met a few wiseguys over the years- two of them I like- am I now a Nazi? I'm sure my rabbi would like to know

BTW- the mob groupie wannabe idiots are just that. If you want real good discussion of the Mafia from knowledgable people both inside and outside That Life, www.americanmaifa.com is a good starting point- there are alos a number of purely historical research sites.

[Robert Charles-Dunne]

It ought to be obvious from other threads how much I detest Naziism.

I also detest organized crime. Although in all its history I do not believe OC killed as many innocent people as Nazi Germany did, nevertheless the bosses of OC were evil men. I think it is important to understand that evil does exist in this world.

Yes, Virginia, there is evil in the world. Evil people do things like kill national leaders they find wanting, install right-wing despots who murder their own people, turn groteque profits from unnecessary wars, value money and power over the wellbeing of their citizenry, etc. Often, they are called Republicans, although they can also be known as Democrats.

That is why I believe the CIA's alliance with OC was reprehensible.

And yet, as you might be aware, OC played a pivotal role during and after WW II to help fight against the Nazis, and the scourge of Communism. Knowing how much you hate Nazis and Commies [whom you have equated as being equally odious in the past, as I recall], would you not give Luciano and his crew some props or brownie points for having done a good deed in that quest?

Dan Moldea wrote an article decrying the glamorization of OC in mass media.

Certainly the dons of OC were powerful, rich men, and power can be an attractive thing.

In that regard, in his recent book, "Dean and Me (A Love Story)", Jerry Lewis descibes " the inescapable presence of the mob in the nightclub/casino business. In this connection, Lewis confesses—or possibly boasts—that he knew and mostly liked Bugsy Siegel in Las Vegas, the Fischetti brothers, Tony Accardo, and Sam Giancana in Chicago, and Frank Costello and Lucky Luciano in New York. His verdict: 'I found the great majority of these guys to be men of their word, far less hypocritical about their businesses than most of the politicians of the day.'”

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article.asp?aid=12102069_1

Notice Lewis' values: who cares if these guys were vicious, cold-blooded killers, they were true to their word and not hypocrites! And Maheu would add that on top of that, Giancana was a good cook!

And of one thing (about the JFK assassination) I am sure of: there WAS OC involvement.

And since OC was press-ganged into national security service by OSS/CIA, and since OC was the arms-length proxy retained by CIA to murder Fidel Castro, what makes you think their JFK involvement wasn't arranged under the same auspices?