Yellow Marks

[Jack White]

I'm not exactly sure what to make of it, but the yellow areas seem damned irregular.

Looking at several films, there don't appear to be marks visible on Main or Commerce. Unless the view of the north side of Elm is blocked at the right times, there also don't appear to be any on the north side, either.

I also noted from the Hughes film that the stoplight post out in front of the TSBD is also painted yellow part way up. Within the limited scope of the films and stills available, this was the only one I noticed painted as such. While this might have been normal procedures, I thought it should be pointed out.

From my studies, the yellow stripes on the south side of Elm were the only

such stripes in Dealey Plaza. I drove up and down other streets looking for

similar stripes, but never found others. But of course I did not cover ALL of

Dallas.

It is interesting that one of the yellow stripes in Zapruder can be used to

precisely locate Moorman on the grass, with her left foot 2 feet south

of the east end of the stripe. This is one thing which establishes the film

as a hoax, since a camera in the position shown in frame 303 cannot

be on the line of sight of the Moorman camera.

Jack

[Jack White]

Attached is the only photo I can locate on short notice

showing the deteriorated condition of the yellow stripes.

If they were EVER necessary, the Dallas street

department never repainted them or kept them where

they could be seen.

Jack

[Jack White]

In the attachment, researcher Tom Fohne stands measuring a rod, the

top of which is on the Moorman line of sight. Judge for yourself what

height Mary needs to be for her camera lens to be on the line of sight.

Jack

[Bill Miller]

In the attachment, researcher Tom Fohne stands measuring a rod, the

top of which is on the Moorman line of sight. Judge for yourself what

height Mary needs to be for her camera lens to be on the line of sight.

Jack

Even if Moorman was in the street ... her height would be much higher than Fohne's waist, which should have been a clue that your study had a big flaw in it.

By the way ... The yellow stripes were painted on the curb in Dealey Plaza years before JFK was ever elected President. I have posted this information before. The stripes are to let drivers know that the road bends and is why you will not find them on Main Street. I obtained this informaion by way of talking to several sources ... one of them being Dallas Cab drivers.

Bill

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Attached is the only photo I can locate on short notice

showing the deteriorated condition of the yellow stripes.

If they were EVER necessary, the Dallas street

department never repainted them or kept them where

they could be seen.

Jack

Well, of course one must consider that the intelligent thing would have always been to install larger/better lighting bulbs in the street lights in event there was a darkness/visibility problem.

Is that not what street lights are for?????

In the attachment, researcher Tom Fohne stands measuring a rod, the

top of which is on the Moorman line of sight. Judge for yourself what

height Mary needs to be for her camera lens to be on the line of sight.

Jack

Since it is not likely that the WC "obfuscators" were smart enough to recognize that MR. West also installed survey controll pins all over Dealy Plaza for his work, which pins can/could now be utilized to physically re-establishe virtually every known and surveyed in item, there happens to be "iron" pin "gold mines" all over the place there.

Might I recommend either a good "White's"/Gold Mountain"/ or Metrotech for the ambitious searcher for the facts.

Tom.

P.S. One would also need all of the angles and distances which Mr. West turned and measured.

That is what one must do in order to complete an accurate survey plat such as the WC version.

And, since his initial control station's were established during the Time/Life Survey and the SS work of 12/5/63, there is not much that the WC had an opportunity to move, change, delete; etc; when this original data was determined.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Here is the West-Breneman plat which shows the location

of the yellow curb stripes.

Jack

A word to the "non-shooters"!

When one's target is confined to an exact and given zone/track/ field of fire, any experienced person would know better than to waste time, especially with a scope, in attempting to re-acquire the target after the first shot.

Rather, one would find his reference point location, assume the firing position, and thereafter allow the target to come into the field of view/zone of fire.

Any hunter, of even the young age down here in the woods of South Mississippi, knows that it is always best to allow the quarry to come to you and thereafter be in "your" plan.

Immediate target re-acquisition through a scope on a moving target is relatively difficult for even the most experienced shooters.

It is "damned" hard when the target is moving laterally across the field of fire, and although usually somewhat easier, it is still not that simple when the target is in fact moving allmost directly away from the firing position.

Re-acquisition of reference firing locations and awaiting the target to come into the field/zone of fire is not.

However, it would also demonstrate shooting/targeting knowledge which should by far exceed anything that LHO would have received in the USMC, and/or shooting rabbits with a .22 caliber rifle.

[Jack White]

In the attachment, researcher Tom Fohne stands measuring a rod, the

top of which is on the Moorman line of sight. Judge for yourself what

height Mary needs to be for her camera lens to be on the line of sight.

Jack

Even if Moorman was in the street ... her height would be much higher than Fohne's waist, which should have been a clue that your study had a big flaw in it.

By the way ... The yellow stripes were painted on the curb in Dealey Plaza years before JFK was ever elected President. I have posted this information before. The stripes are to let drivers know that the road bends and is why you will not find them on Main Street. I obtained this informaion by way of talking to several sources ... one of them being Dallas Cab drivers.

Bill

Miller is unfamiliar with Dealey Plaza. The south side of Elm is MUCH LOWER

than the pedestal. Therefore THE LINE OF SIGHT RISES DRASTICALLY FROM

SOUTH TO NORTH. Thus a person standing in the street is much taller to reach

the line of sight. Dr. Mantik, who is PhD in physics, used a theodolite to establish

PRECISELY the line of sight to the pedestal. (see attached) It is obvious that

a person on the line of sight ON THE GRASS is much too short, but a person

on the line of sight IN THE STREET is exactly the correct height.

Jack

[Thomas H. Purvis]

The Playing Field

All bets are off once the playing field has been revamped!

Top of pedastal where Mr. Z was standing:-------Elevation 430.8

Street elevation directly adjacent to Mooreman position:-------Elevation 418.6 (+/-)

Note: The beginning/leading edge of the yellow mark corresponds exactly with the street elevation 418.50 contour line.

Distance, Mr. Z to beginning/leading edge of yellow mark on curb:-------95 feet (+/-)

Standard Street curbs are poured 6 inches high above the street elevation/concrete gutter portion of the curb which is a part of the concrete structure of the curb itself. (Curb & Gutter)

Edited February 24, 2006 by Thomas H. Purvis

[Thomas H. Purvis]

In the attachment, researcher Tom Fohne stands measuring a rod, the

top of which is on the Moorman line of sight. Judge for yourself what

height Mary needs to be for her camera lens to be on the line of sight.

Jack

Along with the Altgens photo, an excellent example of how the "road bends" prior to the first yellow mark on the curb.

Yet, to repeat, NO yellow marks through the first two hundred feet of the curvature of Elm St on this side of the street, and absolutely ZERO yellow marks on the opposite (Zapruder) side of the street.

[Bill Miller]

"Miller is unfamiliar with Dealey Plaza. The south side of Elm is MUCH LOWER

than the pedestal. Therefore THE LINE OF SIGHT RISES DRASTICALLY FROM

SOUTH TO NORTH. Thus a person standing in the street is much taller to reach

the line of sight. Dr. Mantik, who is PhD in physics, used a theodolite to establish

PRECISELY the line of sight to the pedestal. (see attached) It is obvious that

a person on the line of sight ON THE GRASS is much too short, but a person

on the line of sight IN THE STREET is exactly the correct height.

Jack"

Jack, it is good to see that you are reading my post despite you saying otherwise. I know Dealey Plaza a little better than you think. I know Dealey Plaza well enough to know that there is about a 10 to 12 inch difference in elevation where you claim Moorman's camera lens was and where her camera actually was when she took her #5 Polaroid. I know that difference lies in the distance from where Mary is seen in the Zapruder film on the grassy slope and where you think she stood over the curb in the street. Let's look at the facts ...

Moorman thinks you are silly for saying she was standing in the street when she took her famous #5 Polaroid. I know this because Mark Oakes who stays in constant touch with and sells autographed photos for Mary has told me so. The Muchmore film shows Mary and Jean Hill standing side by side as the cycles rode by their location and Jean said point blank that she was back over the curb and on the grass BEFORE the first shot was ever heard. Groden, Mack Thompson, myself and others have shot recreation photos that match the details seen in Mary's photograph in every way. One such example is seen below on he left ... the comparison on the right is from where you took your photogragh and the degree of both vertical and horizontal differences between the corner of the pedestal and the window gap are quite distinct.

I might also add that what Josiah Thompson said about the windshield height of the motorcycles is a fact. It is mathematically impossible for a 54" camera lens height to see over the top of a 58" high motorcycle windshield if both are in the street and only a few feet apart. Moorman's camera was clearly elevated in such a way that she was able to see over the tops of those cycles windshields and the only way that could happen is that she was standing in the grass, which confirms why the pedestal and window gap in your animation is so far off. Your line of sight is too low and had you raised it and moved west you could have duplicated Moorman's photograph correctly.

Bill Miller

Edited February 24, 2006 by Bill Miller

[Trent Adams]

I saw this thread while waiting for my registration to be complete, and thought I would add my observations regarding this topic.

Having grown up and traveled the DFW metroplex for the past 30 years, these type of markers have been common, especially in Dallas and its suburbs. (No, I was not around at the time of the assassination, so I am not claiming ANY knowledge regarding these particular marks at that particular time...just fyi)

Throughout Dallas, one will notice these types of markings/signs/indicators where roadways begin a significant change of direction, or curve, in the roadway. Obviously, these are there as to catch the attention of a driver....just in case they aren't paying attention as they should. Since the 70's, I have seen these in many different forms:

- paint on curbs

- reflective plastic in the street, on the curb, on a cement/metal guardrail (aka "city titties")

- actual signs with directive arrows (like >)

These are in addition to any "Curve Ahead" type warning signage. I have seen paint on the curb progress from yellow paint, to relective yellow paint, to reflective yellow and black striped paint, to reflective yellow with black >'s painted in the yellow; to reflective white and black in the same manners.

Since we are primarily concerned with this paint on the curb, I won't list all the different progressions of "city titties" or actual signage. However, I believe that these are indeed the same type "warning" stripes as I have seen, but that's just my personal belief based on my personal experience. However, some in this thread have raised some points/issues that I will address below:

The Paint Marks are Evenly Spaced Out

I would expect this to be the case if the person(s) who performed the work had some standards and pride in their work. This seems rather innocuous to me.

No Marks at the Beginning of Elm and Only on the South Side of Elm

Traveling west on Elm (prior to reaching Houston) is a straight shot into the eventual "unnatural" curvature in the "killing zone". Due to the fact that a reduction in speed might not be necessary if traveling in this manner, it becomes more imperative that some type of "warning" be placed when the DRIVER of a vehicle is facing straight ahead, can notice them. Turning on to Elm from Houston is a benefit of not to be traveling at a greater rate of speed after the turn, but the driver will still end up in the same position eventually. Painting marks on the curb all the way from Houston down Elm is not necessary and would not be noticed by a driver, so that is why they would not be necessary until further down the street. It is only at the point where the driver is facing straight ahead and the curve puts the curb directly in front of him/her, is it beneficial to have the warning stripes begin.

As far as the stripes on being on the south side of Elm, that is the only place on Elm street that they would be necessary. There would be no reason to have any on the North side of Elm, as the curb does not ever cross in front of the driver's line of sight.

No Marks Noticed on Main or Commerce Streets

Main Street is straight and would have no reason to have these marks. Commerce is curved like Elm, and if there would be any painted marks on Commerce, they would only be necessary on the North side of the street.

Painted Marks were Necessary Due to Poor Lighting

Up until this day, where lighting is sufficient, they still use these type of markings around the Dallas area. I'll try to verify what is there now, if anything....I honestly don't remember right now. However, lighting could have been an issue then, but even now there are markers in areas where lighting is definitely sufficient.

Paint was Fresh on Nov. 22, 1963

I have no idea. It is possible that Dallas tried to make preparations for a visit by the President and had these painted prior to his visit. In my experience, it is not necessary for paint to be wet to create a transfer to a shoe, if it is on cement. When I worked for the airline, we had many things painted with yellow relective traffic paint, both metal and concrete items. If I accidentally hit a metal pole with my shoe, there was not transfer of paint. If I accidentally hit a painted concrete item, you bet I got a paint on my black or brown shoes. I'm not saying that the paint wasn't wet at the time that she got paint on her shoes, I'm just saying it didn't necessarily have to be wet to scuff her shoe and get a paint transfer on the shoe.

Food for Thought

I guess that it's possible that the marks were created by the shooters as reference points in the kill zone, and part of the coverup was to keep using these for the next 40 years, so as to claim that these were just innocent marks that had always been there. Thank goodness for "them", the shooter's paint marks were in such a location that they could create a viable explanation for these, by saying that they are only located for a curve in the street. That's a good bit of luck there! (Yes, I am being a little sarcastic on this one)

This one is a little more serious, and takes into account that the marks were already there. I ask this of Tom, as he seems to be a true expert in this area. Instead of creating the marks to identify and reference where the shooters established the "kill zone", is it likely that they could have decided, indentified and/or referenced the existing marks for areas of the "kill zone"?

I guess this just seems more plausible to me, because I don't see the advantage to any possible assassin (applies to a lone shooter or multiple shooters) to advertise with long yellow marks on the curb, that something "is different" in Dealey Plaza. Even any potential assassin(s) couldn't have believed at the time that the SS, FBI, DPD or anybody else wouldn't question the sudden appearance of long yellow marks along the curb of the President's motorcade route.

Additionally, throughout the years, we have had people come forward with all sorts of claims. This could be people claiming to see people walking up the grass with a rifle hours before the President was to arrive, or every possibility under the sun of who could have shot the President. To this day, I have not ever heard ANYBODY claim they saw anybody painting the curb on Elm the day of or the day before the assassination. Additionally, I have never heard any claim that "The Painter's Did It", or anything silly like that. I KNOW that is not what anybody on this thread is claiming, but it just goes to what I see as viable toward this possibility.

Honestly, I think this is a great thread because it is an area that deserves to be explored and ALL areas need to be evaluated, in my opinion. I believe that is all part of the "leave no stone left unturned".

OT: I completely agree with Tom's comments regarding target acquisition through a scope. I am not claiming any expertise in this area, but I am familiar with firing a rifle with and without a scope. I always found it more difficult to use a scope to shoot quickly, than to not use it. Personally, if I had only one shot, I would definitely use a scope. If I was firing multiple shots quickly (or figured I would be), I would definitely not be trying to spot targets through a scope each time. But that's just my novice experience talking.

Edited March 2, 2006 by Trent Adams

[James Richards]

Having grown up and traveled the DFW metroplex for the past 30 years, these type of markers have been common, especially in Dallas and its suburbs. (No, I was not around at the time of the assassination, so I am not claiming ANY knowledge regarding these particular marks at that particular time...just fyi) (Trent Adams)

Hi Trent,

Welcome to the forum.

The image below shows Stemmons Freeway circa 1960. If you look at the traffic island, could those be the markers in question on the curb?

James

[Trent Adams]

Hi Trent,

Welcome to the forum.

The image below shows Stemmons Freeway circa 1960. If you look at the traffic island, could those be the markers in question on the curb?

James

Thanks for the welcome James!

I will never claim something as fact, if I don't know for sure. Having stated that and reviewing the photo, it definitely appears that there are spaced out markings of some kind along the curb of the median. Obviously, the clearest markings in the photo appear on the "inside" of the curve, which would never cross the driver's line of sight, per se. However, if I had to offer an opinion based on this, it appears and makes sense that they actually lined the freeway on the median and shoulder as some type of safety precaution. One, to help avoid anybody crossing the median into oncoming traffic. Two, to keep a driver from driving up on the curb at a high rate of speed and losing control of his/her vehicle.

I sincerely hope there weren't that many "kill zones" painted throughout Dallas back then. LOL

Today, obviously stretches of highway are separated by barriers and the immediate freeway is not lined by "curbs", per se. In fact, I believe that this particular stretch of highway today, has a left hand shoulder also, as many of the freeways do. To answer your question, I would be comfortable saying that it is possibly the same type of markers. Additionally, they appear to be about the same size to my untrained eye.

BTW, cool picture. I've never seen it before.

[Ron Ecker]

Mark Oakes who stays in constant touch with and sells autographed photos for Mary

Bill,

How can I get one of those autographed photos of Mary? I think she's a babe.

[Frank Agbat]

I saw this thread while waiting for my registration to be complete, and thought I would add my observations regarding this topic.

...

Trent,

Welcome to the forum -- and what a great post to start with! Thank you for sharing that very sensible, level-headed explanation. I think it is valuable to explore the reasonable before launching into wild speculation.

It should be noted that since these painted areas are common, this does not *exclude* their use as a sighting aid, as described by Thomas Purvis. It does seem to reduce their existence, though, to a more "serendipitous" event for the shooters than one specifically designed for it -- if, in fact, they factored at all into the shooting scenario.