Suspicious Vehicles and 11/22/63

[Lee Forman]

anyone ever find the original of the car in Gen walkers yard with the license plate not blacked out?

that always struck me as odd...

Hey Blair,

Not that I am aware of personally.

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/03/JA/DR/.dr08.html

...Furthermore, for reasons unknown, the most incriminating photograph --

the view of Walker's house -- may have been deliberately mutilated while

in the possession of the authorities. (Whether the DPD or the FBI is not

known; either is possible.) The image of the license plate of the car in

Walker's driveway was torn out -- again, for reasons about which we can

only speculate -- by either a member of the DPD or the FBI. For years the

authorities maintained that the photograph is in the condition in which

it was found. Significantly, the Paines, at whose home the photograph was

found, testified that the photo indeed had the large hole before the

police received it.

Then in 1969, retired Chief of Police Jesse Curry published a book, *JFK

Assassination File,* sharing his doubts about the alleged assassin's

guilt, and publishing a number of rare and previously unseen photographs.

One of these photos showed a number of items of Oswald's found at the

Paine house. Clearly visible in this photo is the photograph of the

Walker house -- unmistakably the very same one. Unfortunately it is far

too small in this photo for a definitive statement to be made about

whether the license plate is torn out or not.

But was planning to add these...car in driveway is #39. I don't know the make and model? I did read somewhere on the line that the claim about Curry's book having the plate detail was in fact erroneous.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce5.jpg

#40 is the 1949 or 1950 Ford, light green or light blue car.

#41 is the 1953 Chevrolet, black and white stripe side down.

http://www.ajweberman.com/nodules/nodule10.htm

A Dallas Police report stated: "A witness by ear, Kirk Coleman, w/m 14 states he was sitting in the back room of his home and heard what sounded like a shot. (Illegible) up over the backyard fence and he looked onto the church parking lot he saw some unknown white male speed down the driveway towards Turtle Creek, in either 1949 or 1950 Ford, light green. He then noticed what appeared to be (illegible) with the door open on a 1953 Chevrolet, black with white stripe side down, states this person (illegible) pushed up and was leaning over as if he was putting something into the floorboards. This person got inside the Chevrolet and sped away from the lot. (There was a meeting of some sort at the church and the lot of was full of cars but at the time the witness looked out there they were the only people on the lot)."

When Dallas policeman W.E. Chambers contacted Kirk Coleman, Coleman stated: "that he was in the back room and heard a noise. He thought it was a blowout. The boy who was with him, Ronald Andries said it was a gun shot. Kirk stated that he then ran out the back and climbed the back fence and saw a man getting into a 1949 or 1950 Ford, Light Green or Light Blue and take off. This was on the parking lot of the church next to General Walker's home. Also on further down the parking lot was another car, unknown make or model and a man was in it. He had the dome light on and Kirk could see him bend over the front seat as if he was putting something back in the floorboard. The only description Kirk could give on this car was the fact that it was black with a white stripe. The other boy, Ronald, did not climb the fence, so he did not see this. The only description the boy could give on the person who got into the Ford was that he was middle size and had long, black hair. There were several other cars on the parking lot because some function was in process at the church. The church has lights for the parking lot but Kirk stated the lights were not on. The person that was in the Ford took off in a hurry but the person in the other car did not seem to be in a hurry."

[Lee Forman]

I may have to go back over this - the Oswald shooting range sightings at the Sportsdrome...there are many different makes, models and years of cars....

#42

Mr. SLACK. No . . . A four-door sedan, and it was a dark color, and he left there like a crazy bunch of hoodlums. And Lucille would remember that because she made a remark to me. You know how boys take off and make dust fly.

#43 -

Sports Drome witness Malcolm Price saw Oswald with an old model Chevrolet; Mrs. Lovell Penn had seen Oswald and two other men with a 1957 black and white Chevrolet with Texas plates.

#44 -

"Possible corroboration for Ryder's story is provided by two women, Edith Whitworth, who operates the Furniture Mart, a furniture store located about one and a half blocks from the Irving Sports Shop, and Mrs. Gertrude Hunter, a friend of Mrs. Whitworth. They testified that in early November 1963, a man who they later came to believe was OSWALD, drove up to the furniture mart in a two tone blue and white 1957 automobile, entered the store and asked about a part for a gun, presumably because of a sign that appeared in the building advertising a gunsmith shop that had formerly occupied part of the premises. When he found that he could not obtain the part, the man allegedly returned to his car and then came back into the store with a woman and two young children to look at furniture, remaining in the store for about 30 to 40 minutes.

OSWALD had stayed in the Furniture Mart for 20 minutes, then left in a 1957 or 1958 Ford

#45 - The black Cadillac Clinton incident - taken from Garrison's opening remarks.

The state will show that shortly thereafter, still in late August or early September 1963, the defendant, Clay L. Shaw, Lee Harvey Oswald and David W. Ferrie drove into Clinton, Louisiana--which is very close to Jackson--in a black Cadillac, parking the Cadillac near the voter registrar's office on St. Helena Street. While the defendant, Clay L. Shaw, and David W. Ferrie remained in the car, Lee Harvey Oswald got out of the car and got in line with a group of people who were waiting to register.

The state will introduce witnesses who will testify that they saw the black Cadillac parked in front of the registrar's office and who will identify the defendant, Clay L. Shaw, Lee Harvey Oswald and David W. Ferrie as the individuals in that car

Edward James Whalen's story - Car #46, a 1953 black Galaxie Ford.

After this meeting, WHALEN spent the night at an apartment provided by FERRIE. The apartment, as WHALEN recalls, was located near or on Carrollton Avenue near its intersection with Tulane Avenue. FERRIE also provided WHALEN with a 1953 black Galaxie Ford for his use while he was in town. WHALEN was to [the next section is illegible and my transcription may not be entirely accurate] meet FERRIE and the rest at the Absinthe House the next night at [illegible] 11:45 PM[?].

It appears that Ford did not begin making the Galaxie until 1959, but I make note of it in any case.

[Lee Forman]

1. Tramp - Curly

2. Tramp - Moe

3. Tramp - Larry

4. Tramp [Jack Beers photo] Shemp?

5. Name escapes me - the guy that turned himself in for outstanding warrants in another state. Robin Unger brought that one up once.

6. The unknown hispanic individual in the squad car photo - possibly Ronald Ponce de Leon. James Richards posted that photo before.

7. Lonnie Ray Wright - RR Tracks

8. John Elrod - RR Tracks

9. Lee Harvey Oswald

10. James Braden

11. ARTHUR ALVIS MCDUFFIE, DOB February 6, 1944, date of arrest November 25, 1963. Doesn't count for 11/22 however [tnx to Bernice Moore]

12. Russell McLarry - not 11/22 [tnx to James Richards]

13. Larry Florer

14. There is the youth coming out of Fritz' office when Oswald was being taken in. I think Greg Parker said that this individual may have been associated with the Indignant White Coucil.

15. There is Donald Wayne House - but that is Fort Worth.

16. So is the other individual, Kenneth Glenn Wilson - Fort Worth. Tnx to Duke Lane's Cowtown Connection.

17. Then there is the man who appears to be under arrest, being taken off the knoll. I don't have this frame handy. Robin posted that one someplace.

Let's eliminate the 'protective custody arrests' for the time being...Euins, Brehm and son, TSBD workers including Givens and Arce, etc.

18. There is also the odd Boyscout story, which can be found in Walt Brown's stuff - and the incident with a toy gun that allegedly took place higher up on Main st. If Robinson saw this boy at the station - wouldn't he have been under arrest as well?

19. In the John Elrod account, the man whom he believes may have been Lee Harvey Oswald is also thought to perhaps by JT Masen. Was Masen arrested that day?

http://www.dealeyplazauk.co.uk/John%20Masen.htm

Per Mark Bridger:

The arrest of Whitter and Miller forced Ellsworth’s hand, and he had Masen arrested on 20th November. The DPD arrest case report shows it occurred at his Gunshop at 11.30am by Dallas Officers Homer Burris and Tommy Taylor. Three witnesses listed were ATF agents William Fuller, Frank Ellsworth and Archie Kirkpatrick. The charge was Violation of the National Firearms Act – illegal possession of explosives. This lesser charge only warranted a small fine, and was the first of three arrests that week, culminating in a 22nd November arrest for “investigation purposes.” Probe magazine in 1996 printed his 22.11.63 fingerprint card. No mug shots taken by DPD have ever surfaced. My June 2004 request to LT.Wesson, the DPD custodian of mugshot record books, for information on Masen’s missing arrest photos was ignored. The DPD are still happy 40 years on then, to obstruct and ignore any research into this matter

http://ourworld.cs.com/mikegriffith1/id88.htm

Mike Griffith...

Another Dallas police document which has recently surfaced and which adds to the possibility that Oswald was associating with Ruby is a December 11, 1963 memo signed by Dallas Police Department Detective W.S. Biggio. This memo cites a report that Oswald had driven Jack Ruby's car several times prior to the assassination. Even though the original source was an unidentified auto mechanic of Ruby, no one in an official capacity ever asked Whitter, who was known to be a mechanic of Ruby's, about this. Moreover, it seems strange that a 14-page report on Donnell Whitter is still classified. As this withdrawal sheet indicates, this document was reviewed as recently as June 1993. I find the withholding of such documents unsatisfactory and not in the spirit of the Records Act.

?

Only hit at NARA at present:

AGENCY : HSCA

RECORD NUMBER : 180-10131-10131

RECORDS SERIES : NUMBERED FILES

AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 009978

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR : CITIZEN

FROM : ALLEN, MARK

TO : WIZELMAN, LESLIE

TITLE : GUN-RUNNING ACTIVITIY

DATE : 07/17/1978

PAGES : 5

DOCUMENT TYPE : MEMORANDUM

SUBJECTS : RUBY, JACK; GUN-RUNNING ACTIVITIES; WHITTER, DONNELL

DARIUS; MILLER, JAMES E.; ELROD, JOHN FRANKLIN;

MILLER, LAWRENCE REGINALD

CLASSIFICATION : UNCLASSIFIED

RESTRICTIONS : OPEN IN FULL

CURRENT STATUS : OPEN

DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 09/27/1996

COMMENTS : Contains 4 pages summary of evidence; FBI 184-2. Box

184.

What kind of car did Jack Ruby drive? I can't seem to find that anywhere.

What kind of car was Rose Cheramie thrown from on her trip to get the heroin?

- lee

[James Richards]

What kind of car did Jack Ruby drive? I can't seem to find that anywhere. (Lee Forman)

Lee,

This is Ruby's car below. A 1960 Oldsmobile.

James

[Blair Dobson]

the car in walkers driveway looks very much like a 57 chevy belair.

i could be wrong

[Lee Forman]

Thanks for that James. Maybe I should enter it into the queue, just in case.

#47 - A 1960 white Oldsmobile, driven by Jack Ruby. May or may not be significant.

Thanks Blair - Sounds good for now. #39 a 1957 Chevy Belair.

I probably should create 2 separate schemes - one for vehicles peripheral to 11/22 and then ones noted on 11/22. Someday....

#48 - an brown, sort-of beige, off-white '56 Pontiac - according to Jim Hicks, from where one of the shooters was located, backed up to the fence, in the area behind Zapruder and Sitzman.

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/garr...y/pdf/Hicks.pdf

Still have to capture the Ford pick-ups, the Oswald sighting after his arrest and a few others.

I need to recap with a summary. I just noticed that I doublecounted at least 2 cars.

Also curious - may take a look and see if it's noted anywhere - I would be interested to know the make, model, color and year of the automobile used by Ferrie on his ice skating goose hunt. I did look through a number of Cheramie related materials - no reference to the type of car that she was allegedly thrown from that I could find.

Here's an odd one. One week before the assassination, a woman claimed that her '57 Rambler had the window blown out by a rifle shot - [close to] where Kennedy was assassinated. The Continental Street underpass appears to have been located close to where the old MKT railroad roundhouse was located - which appears to be several blocks away, from as near as I can make out. Someone correct me please if I am mistaken.

- lee

Edited March 30, 2006 by Lee Forman

[James Richards]

The arrest of Whitter and Miller forced Ellsworth’s hand, and he had Masen arrested on 20th November. The DPD arrest case report shows it occurred at his Gunshop at 11.30am by Dallas Officers Homer Burris and Tommy Taylor. (Lee Forman quoting text)

Lee,

Burris and Taylor were a couple of very interesting characters, especially Burris. His resume includes being suspended for beating a prisoner in 1952.

In 1953, he was mixed up in the middle of a police theft ring. He and 5 others were suspended but eventually reinstated.

1953 was a busy year as Burris partnered J.D. Tippit in a plain clothes operation where they nabbed two men for distributing Communist leaflets. I'm sure the irony there hasn't escaped you.

FWIW.

James

[Lee Forman]

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...indpost&p=65021

Just to get that link in there on the 59 Olds.

Wish I had more info on that '56 Pontiac.

- lee

[Lee Forman]

What kind of car did Jack Ruby drive? I can't seem to find that anywhere. (Lee Forman)

Lee,

This is Ruby's car below. A 1960 Oldsmobile.

James

Interesting James - thanks. Holland has a light tan '61 olds parked 2nd from the corner in the back lot, next to the GKS location. There is a difference in the style between '60 - '61 - one wonders how these guys all got their makes, models and years down so well.

- lee

[Blair Dobson]

a fast question and it may have been or i may have asked this this before:

the picture of the 57 in Walkers driveway....

didn't Groden say somewhere thet the license number on this car was once visible and then altered later?

does anyone know what it was or might have been?

i have always thought it odd that so many other things that should have been blacked out weren't and this was.

i suspect (although it is a wild guess) that this car is not walkers but rather someone they don't want associated with Walker..

Just a thought....

Thought i would throw it out there.

Cheers,

Dobson...

[James Richards]

didn't Groden say somewhere thet the license number on this car was once visible and then altered later? does anyone know what it was or might have been? (Blair Dobson)

This blow-up shows the photograph itself before it was altered. No details unfortunately.

James

[Lee Forman]

didn't Groden say somewhere thet the license number on this car was once visible and then altered later? does anyone know what it was or might have been? (Blair Dobson)

This blow-up shows the photograph itself before it was altered. No details unfortunately.

James

Somewhere I also read a debunking of the idea that the vehicle had the tag in Curry's book. It was determined by someone ? that there was a piece of paper under the photo showing through - confusing someone into thinking that Curry had the unaltered version. I looked at it and would agree. However, Gary Mack told me that there is no mystery about this car - that it belonged to Charles Klihr - it's even detailed in the Warren Report.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a document, a picture which is a copy of Commission No. 5 and ask you if you recognize the scene portrayed in that picture?

General WALKER. I recognize my house in this picture.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize anything else? Specifically, I draw your attention to the automobile that is shown in there.

General WALKER. I do not recognize the car.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Charles Klihr?

General WALKER. Would you spell it again?

Mr. LIEBELER. I will spell it right in just a minute. K-l-i-h-r. 2046 Rosebud Street, Irving, Tex. Do you know that man?

General WALKER. Not that spelling. I know a Charles Clyr. As I know the spelling, it is C-l-y-r.

Mr. LIEBELER. Does he live out in Irving?

General WALKER. I think he does.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you recognize his address?

General WALKER. I wouldn't recognize his address. I don't recognize that address. That could or couldn't be it.

Mr. LIEBELER. How about that car, do you recognize that as his car?

General WALKER. I don't recognize that car.

Mr. LIEBELER. This gentleman that we may be talking about we may be talking about the same man, is a volunteer worker for you from time to time?

General WALKER. If it is the one I am referring to, he is in and out quite often, right. He and his wife have helped me quite a bit.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you aren't able to identify that car as being his?

General WALKER. No; I am not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Does that car appear to be a 1957 Chevrolet? Or aren't you able to tell by looking?

General WALKER. I am not able to tell. I am not very good on cars.

1957 Chevrolet in the Allen photo? I don't believe that this vehicle was parked there when the motorcade came through.

- lee

Edited June 10, 2006 by Lee Forman

[Dawn Meredith]

Somewhere I also read a debunking of the idea that the vehicle had the tag in Curry's book. It was determined by someone ? that there was a piece of paper under the photo showing through - confusing someone into thinking that Curry had the unaltered version

Does anyone have a copy of Curry's book? J Harrison once told me that all the copies were bought soon's they hit the shelves. Has anyone read it? Does he reveal anything of interest?

Great pics guys!!! And infor on other- than- the Rambler, tho that car remains one interesting mistery.

Dawn

[Steven Tomlinson]

didn't Groden say somewhere thet the license number on this car was once visible and then altered later? does anyone know what it was or might have been? (Blair Dobson)

This blow-up shows the photograph itself before it was altered. No details unfortunately.

James

It would seem greatly against logic 'and' probability for the outline of a somewhat irregular alteration to be easily visible before said alteration.

For protection of that statement, there is another possibility. The picture did have a hole which was 'filled in' on purpose to create a false lead by whomever. A bad job though that doesn't suggest expertise, something I would fairly expect.

ST

[Blair Dobson]

i think the assumption that the "unaltered version" is in fact the same version with a piece of paper behind it is the correct one.

thanks everyone.

cheers,

Dobson.