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Harry and the zfilm


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Odd hours for "Miller":

I had to get up during the night to get a drink of water, so I

checked my computer as I somtimes do. "Miller" had just

posted a mesage at 3:48 a.m., Central Daylight Time.

What time zone does he post from? Or was he just having

a sleepless night?

Or do provocateurs work 'round the clock?

Jack

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Odd hours for "Miller":

I had to get up during the night to get a drink of water, so I

checked my computer as I somtimes do. "Miller" had just

posted a mesage at 3:48 a.m., Central Daylight Time.

What time zone does he post from? Or was he just having

a sleepless night?

Or do provocateurs work 'round the clock?

Jack

So let me get this straight, Jack .... You get up at night and check your computer and its a normal thing to do, but if I get up at night and check mine ... that is something sinister. What a warpped way to look at things! Should I then think that because you were online at 3:48 A.M. that "incompentuers" seem to be trolling around the clock. I expect one day to be checking the news and finding that the Feds have your place surrounded and are at a standoff with you and your cult followers like what happened at Waco. The heading on the bottom of the TV screen will read ... 'STANDOFF AT WACKO!'

Bill Miller

Edited by Bill Miller
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None of the copies I've come across so far seem to be free of some interference.

The only copies that within just a few hours that could possibly be whole a short while later, would be the copy that Life took or the copy sent to Washington. Since then everything seems to have become jumbled up, so available today there are only (misnumbered?) frames 171 on? Could someone please give an indicator of who has researched all this with a knowledge of Sorrels and Harry's involvement?

I don't think there was a fourth copy, but rather that the copy that Sorrels retained for a few days was the one viewed at Zapruders after His copy and original went to Life and Sorrels first copy was sent to Washington.

What DID happen to Sorrels second copy, and why does there not seem to be available copies of frames from the original copy sent to Washington?

If such frames ARE available, I (and no doubt many others) would like to see for research a copy of (numbered according to WC numbering) 207 and 212. (I wonder if you guys could take time out from researching each others bedtime habits, please, and supply this information?)

if that is correct, and 'six frames are missing' is correct (with any partials counted as 'a missing'), then 212 is the 7th frame after the break. which would make it number 214, not 212?, I'm getting a bit confused here, where is the misstep 212, 213, 214?

Robin, those links and attachments seem to clear up some things, and raise other questions. Trying to unravel the first few hours seems to be a bit like keeping your eye on the ball.

Zavada doesn't seem to have known of the Harry viewing

Reminds me of that three card shuffle, follow the ace. Can't quite figure out Sorrels pass the parcel and Zavada not studying the original at the same time as the 2 secret service copies* and where did these two copies go?

*one of which was of different density ?? throughout uniformely so, or in parts? is this the copy that Harry thumbed (around midnight 22nd?)? Is this the copy that Zavada writes "On the following day (this would bethe morning 23 viewing?), Mr Chamberlain recalls viewing one of the prints with a Secret Service Agent (Sorrels?). Dick Blair recalls a comment, possibly from Pat Pattist, that someone noticed some unsteadiness at every-other 8mm frame (every-other? now and then?) (bla bal bla)"

Makes me wonder whether Harry and Sorrels cleaned their hands before handling the film? Are there fluids on the skin that can momentarily partially dissolve the coating and then it dries (sets?) again? Though I suppose that would leave a fingerprint?

repeat from earlier post::

................................................................................

.......................................................

c/o'Sixth floor museum site:

6:00pm

Zapruder and Schwartz returned to Kodak to have the prints prepared for projection.

10:00pm

Schwartz and Zapruder took two prints to Forrest Sorrels, head of the Dallas Secret Service office, who immediately dispatched one to Secret Service investigators in Washington, D.C.

11:00pm

LIFE magazine Pacific Bureau editor Richard Stolley, who immediately flew from Los Angeles to Dallas after hearing of the assassination, reached Zapruder at his home by phone and arranged to meet in his office at 9:00 the next morning.

====================== November 23, 1963======================

8:00am

Stolley arrived at Zapruder’s office an hour early and waited.

9:00am

Zapruder screened the film again for Secret Service agents, then met with Stolley and agreed to sell only the print rights to LIFE. He expressed concern that the film not be exploited. Stolley left with the original film and one print. The original went to LIFE’s printing center in Chicago and the print went to its corporate office in New York. LIFE personnel examined the film to decide which frames to publish. At some point, they accidentally damaged the original in two places and six frames were removed, leaving visible splice marks.(The original film is the artifact purchased by the US Government in 1999; the duplicate print is now in the Zapruder Collection at The Sixth Floor Museum at Dealey Plaza.)

................................................................................

.......................................................

After selling the original and one copy to LIFE, Zapruder seems to have retained an unexplained* 4th copy, which Sorrels brought people over to view, being without his copies Nov. 23-26.(Trask)

Where is te copy Sorrels (Schwartz and Zapruder took two prints to Forrest Sorrels, head of the Dallas Secret Service office, who immediately dispatched one to Secret Service investigators in Washington, D.C" sent to Washington.

Presumably if I understand correctly (please correct me) then by midnight the 22'nd, Zapruder has a whole original and one (two?) (whole) copy (/ies). Sorrels is 'thumbing' one (whole) copy with Harry, and one wnole copy is in the bag to Washington

"Also on Friday evening, November 22nd, [Forrest]

Sorrels did a frame-by-frame study of the Zapruder film

in his Dallas office. According to Dallas Postal

Inspector Harry D. Holmes who was present, "...we

thumbed (through) that thing for an hour or more...push (ing)

it up one frame at a time"

The commission then choose the damaged original to view. Who has seen the copy sent to Washington?

__________________

*could this fourth copy be the copy that Sorrels had studied with Harry(copy 3) some hours earlier?

__________________

??????????????

edit:: I'm probably missing a part in the puzzle but it almost looks as if Sorrels fed copy 3 back into the loop through Zapruder(or rather through the 23-26 viewings, wherever they may have been). Did Zapruder pass a copy on to a secret service other than Sorrels? (Probably not ,there likely was no '4th' copy) Are we today when viewing frames outside of the WC published B?W's, viewing Sorrels second copy?

Edited by John Dolva
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repeat below

Edited by John Dolva
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It was copy B that dropped out of the loop for a while overnight 22nd. If the original, while damaged, and the copy sent to washington (copy a on diagram) were basically locked down within 12 hours. Sorrels copy ( b ) which could be the 'shaky' and 'less dense' copy that then did the rounds of viewings from the 23 to 26th.

A comparison with suggested frame copies of a or c could reveal more of what exactly happened.

On this site there are some interesting snippets:

http://www.slate.com/id/3146/

"Back in 1975, Robert Groden, a conspiracist specializing in image trickery, argued in Rolling Stone that frames were missing...... Groden thought 10 frames were gone"

"Perhaps the original Zapruder film still exists. Texas' Hunt family may have a copy, according to a man who claims he picked it up for them"

Grodens ten missing frames seems close to my current theorised tally (not yet looking at any other splices) of seven incomplete frames. The Hunt copy may be useless if it's copy of copy b... on the other hand, there is still the copy 4 fluttering about

_________________________________

Could this version of events be useful?

http://www.jfklancer.com/thompZ.html

"Afternoon

Richard Stolley and Tommy Thompson of LIFE fly in from Los Angeles. LIFE stringers Patsy Swank and Holland McCombs learn that Zapruder has film of the assassination. Forrest Sorrels receives two of the three first generation copies and assures Zapruder they will be used only for official purposes by the Secret Service.

Evening

Stolley sets up offices in the Adolphus Hotel and begins calling Zapruder's home at fifteen minute intervals. Zapruder, shaken by the day's events, drives aimlessly around Dallas.

9:55 pm

Secret Service Agent Max Phillips sends one of the two copies to Secret Service Chief Rowley in Washington, D.C. In an accompanying note, Phillips says that "Mr. Zapruder is in custody of the 'master' film."

11:00 pm

Stolley reaches Zapruder at home and asks to come out and view the film. Zapruder declines. They agree to meet the next morning at 9:00am at Zapruder's office.

NOVEMBER 23

8:00 am

Stolley is waiting at Zapruder's office when Zapruder arrives. The film is screened for Stolley. Stolley agrees that LIFE will pay Zapruder $50,000 in two installments for print rights to the film. Stolley leaves with the original and perhaps the remaining copy. The original is sent to Chicago where the LIFE editorial staff has assembled to prepare the new issue to be on the newsstands the following Tuesday, November 26th. During the preparation of black and white copies, the original is broken in several places by photo technicians. Splices are made.

At some time this weekend, a copy of the film is sent to New York where it is viewed by C.D. Jackson, publisher of LIFE. Jackson decides to acquire all rights to the film and so instructs Stolley.

Evening

Since copies cannot be made in Dallas, Gordon Shanklin, FBI SAIC in Dallas, is instructed to send the copy the FBI obtained from Sorrels by commercial flight to Washington, D.C. Shanklin does so, at the same time requesting that the FBI Lab make three, second-generation copies, one for Washington and two for the Dallas Field Office."

SSA M Philliups becomes the despatcher of 'copy a' to Washington. He notes to Rowley that Zapruder has the master copy."At some time this weekend" 'Copy c' is sent to Life. Upon viewing it a decision is made to buy the originals rights.

Does this mean that for a while there Zapruder only had the original?("Stolley leaves with the original and perhaps the remaining copy").

While copy c was with Jackson, copy a with Rowley, and copy b the copy floating around Dallas a few days and then sent to the FBI who copied it thrice and made that the basis of its investigation. Is it reasonable to assume then that that then became the basis for the reintroduced missing frames we see today?

___________________________

"Evening (23rd)

Since copies cannot be made in Dallas, Gordon Shanklin, FBI SAIC in Dallas, is instructed to send the copy the FBI obtained from Sorrels by commercial flight to Washington, D.C. Shanklin does so, at the same time requesting that the FBI Lab make three, second-generation copies, one for Washington and two for the Dallas Field Office."

In other words, for at least about 18 hours since Sorrels received it, the second copy was somewhere, the end point of this journey being in the possession of the FBI.

Sorrells was SS, Harry? FBI informant, postal inspector, could he have passed it on to the FBI? What is Sorrels and Shanklins recollections? Adding 'official copies' and testimonies together indicates Shanklin didn't send it till after the 26th?

Edited by John Dolva
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  • 3 weeks later...
Lancer:

"Reporter Harry McCormack takes Sorrels to Jennifer Juniors, Inc., in the Dal-Tex Building, 501 Elm St., the office of Abraham Zapruder. Zapruder was emotionally upset; agreed to furnish a copy of the film to Sorrels with the understanding that it was strictly for official use of the Secret Service and that it would not be shown or given to any newspapers or magazines, as he expected to sell the film for as high a price as he could get for it. Mr. McCormack had offered $1,000 for it, but others were also interested.(Memo from Forrest Sorrels to Thomas Kelley)

WFAA-TV calls Eastman Kodak, which agrees to process the film right away. A police cruiser took the men to Kodak on Manor Way. There, Sorrels also met Phil Willis, there with his film for processing. Sorrels left. Dan Rather later claimed credit for arranging for the film's processing. Zapruder had 3 copies made (possibly at Jamieson). The film was previewed at the lab just after being developed. Zapruder was assured no bootlegs had been made. Sorrels later picked up two of the copies.(Trask)

After selling the original and one copy to LIFE, Zapruder seems to have retained an unexplained 4th copy, which Sorrels brought people over to view, being without his copies Nov. 23-26.(Trask)

Nov. 23: With Zapruder at the projector, the film is viewed by Richard Stolley, LIFE's Los Angeles Bureau Chief, the only reporter among a small group of Secret Service agents in a small room of Jennifer Juniors, early in the morning. Zapruder ran the film again and again as newsmen from AP and UPI and other magazines showed up. When the lights were turned on, Zapruder looked ill. Stolley convinces Zapruder to talk with him first. (Richard Stolley, 1973)"

________________________________________________________

Vince Palamera:

"The authors interviewed the following members of the

DPD: Jesse Curry, B.J. Martin, Douglas Jackson, James

Chaney, Stavis Ellis, Marion Baker, Joe M. Smith, and

Earle V. Brown. Also, Jean Hill, Bill Newman, Charles

Brehm, Ralph Yarborough, Joe H. Rich, Bill Greer, Roy

Kellerman***, Henry Gonzalez, Dean Andrews...and HARRY

D. HOLMES.

PAGE 129:

"Also on Friday evening, November 22nd, [Forrest]

Sorrels did a frame-by-frame study of the Zapruder film

in his Dallas office. According to Dallas Postal

Inspector Harry D. Holmes who was present, "...we

thumbed (through) that thing for an hour or more...push (ing)

it up one frame at a time."

PAGE 213:

"A postal inspector [Holmes] picked up a piece of skull

from the Elm St. pavement. He said it was as "...big as

the end of my finger..." Furthermore, it was one of many:

"...there was just pieces of skull and bone and

corruption all over the place..." He later discarded

it.[!!!]"

Seymour Weitzman found a "firecracker" sized skull

fragment on Elm Street which he turned over to the

Secret Service [7 H 107];

the Harper fragment; the back-of-the -head piece Sam

Kinney found lying in the rear of the limo while on the

C-130; the three pieces found in the limo:

what is going on here???

In any event, Harry Holmes is certainly unique: he had

perhaps the best vantage point, witnessing the

assassination THROUGH BINOCULARS on the fifth floor of

the Post Office Terminal Annex Building. Holmes was

previously an FBI informant and, in his capacity as

Postal Inspector, had traced the paperwork concerning

the Oswald mail order rifle and revolver and testified

about it to the Warren Commission. Holmes was present

asking questions during the final interrogation of Lee

Harvey Oswald on 11/24/63, shortly before Ruby would

silence him forever. Holmes was a friend of John

Martin, a man who also worked in the same building who

took a film on that fateful day ("Pictures of the

Pain", p. 574). And, now, we know he found a piece of

President Kennedy's skull on Elm Street---which

he then DISCARDED---and he analyzed the Zapruder film

on NOVEMBER 22, 1963!!!

Vince Palamara"

So Harry saw ("thumbed through, frame by frame") one or both of the two copies Sorrels had?

Jack Ruby had written down the name D. H. Holmes on one of these papers. They were found under the refrigerator in his apartment by the next tenant.

The H and D are transposed, but, there is little doubt in my mind that this is the same person.

Ruby also has the phone number of the Dallas Sheraton on one of these pieces of paper.

I believe the Sheraton was where the Secret Service had set up it's comand post.

It is also where one G.H.W. Bush stayed on 11/22/1863.

These papers may divulge more information if the names and numbers are checked and referenced.

Chuck

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Chuck::"Jack Ruby had written down the name D. H. Holmes on one of these papers. They were found under the refrigerator in his apartment by the next tenant.

The H and D are transposed, but, there is little doubt in my mind that this is the same person.

Ruby also has the phone number of the Dallas Sheraton on one of these pieces of paper.

I believe the Sheraton was where the Secret Service had set up it's comand post.

It is also where one G.H.W. Bush stayed on 11/22/1863.

These papers may divulge more information if the names and numbers are checked and referenced."

Chuck, excellent. Very interesting.

what to make of it? I think you are right, a good likelyhood it's good 'ole Harry. So, Harry has possibly been there in Ruby's life too. The note under fridge obviously predates Ruby's arrest. There really seems to be something about Harry.

some of the things written there.

D. H Holmes (underlined)

1059 (underlined)

Crepe-

no labels

10-20-13

12-18-13

14-16-15

ea

Double Knife Plant(?)

11/4 leather belt

Bring

???a?ler

Postcards

PatMorr?es

Ex-1-3928

RI 7-3369

RI 7 2362

(?) 10289

________________________

(?)Ta

39248

CAROL

Jean Love (underlined)

Joanne ?????? ?EV1-0400

DA-?-0924

VICTOR

RI 76811

B?R

RI77813

20 CENTURY

??* 6879

MRS

B?NSKY

308

Cl(?)

HAZ?L

==================================

BiE(775(?),TTS(?)) JEAN(?) STEIN(?) Biettstein(?)

PE6-9700

LA 6 2863

CLUB DALLAS

RI

BL 4-8444

RI * 6211

SHERATON

CANFIELD

C?????LLT?N

WHI????

F?77???

B-?-????

???

----------

?10?9

??????

???? Phone

M????? 1-4870

?meddie Redmond

RI7-236?

Edited by John Dolva
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It is also where one G.H.W. Bush stayed on 11/22/1863.

I rather doubt it. He was fighting for the Union Army that day.

Awesome deductive skills there Brendan!

(I thought Bush was a southern man?)

I appreciate your choosing to focus upon the typo.

Curiously, you neglected to comment upon the content of the post.

Perhaps you feel my suggestion that Holmes and Ruby were acquainted with each other might actually be valid?

Perhaps you believe that Ruby might have had contact with the secret service and/or George Bush at the Sheraton?

I wish you would have taken a moment to comment upon the content of the post rather than make a joke about the wrong century typo I made.

Thanks again for your illuminating and well thought out critique of my post.

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It is also where one G.H.W. Bush stayed on 11/22/1863.

I rather doubt it. He was fighting for the Union Army that day.

Awesome deductive skills there Brendan!

(I thought Bush was a southern man?)

I appreciate your choosing to focus upon the typo.

Curiously, you neglected to comment upon the content of the post.

Perhaps you feel my suggestion that Holmes and Ruby were acquainted with each other might actually be valid?

Perhaps you believe that Ruby might have had contact with the secret service and/or George Bush at the Sheraton?

I wish you would have taken a moment to comment upon the content of the post rather than make a joke about the wrong century typo I made.

Thanks again for your illuminating and well thought out critique of my post.

For those who are interested in the material John Dolva posted on this thread re Jack Ruby phone numbers

please see the MFF links listed below.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...245&relPageId=3

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...245&relPageId=4

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...245&relPageId=5

Which leads to the obvious conclusion that WC Document 848 is rather important

Edited by Robert Howard
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That makes sense too Greg. I'll look also into how Ruby used to write things. Some things are in flowing writing orhers in Capitals etc. The dot after the D but not the H indicates perhaps H Holmes was written first with the D added.

The crepe and numbers perhaps indicates a shopping list of sorts for crepe which can be used for decorations, a kind of poor mans/womans stiff fabric for bunching. a rising progression in the first colunmng like a womans dress size with a diminishing number following , perhaps number of rolls needed per size for a particular purpose, with a total roll number in last column. I don't know, just speciulation. It may be a shopping list of sorts for the store in NO.

On the other hand there is a reference to postcards. Jury out for now?

_______

Robert? I read the documents and so on, but lack the background to make anything of it. I wonder if you could elaborate please? There is something in there that alerted you to something, what was it?

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  • 4 years later...
Guest Tom Scully

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/history/the_d...eed/Holmes.html

From the web site above:

Harry D. Holmes

U.S. Postal Inspector

Born in Indian Territory in 1905, after having moved to Kansas City in 1917, Harry Holmes worked his way through his early school years in a toy factory, a bakery, and as a lamplighter. After taking an examination, he eventually became a mail handler and attended school part-time to become a CPA and later attended dental college. Following the bombing of Pearl Harbor, Holmes, who was still working with the post office, was encouraged to take the postal inspector’s examination. Upon acceptance, he was stationed first in Lake Charles, Louisiana, then to Monroe, Louisiana, and eventually to Dallas in 1948. Because of his position with the post office., Holmes was responsible for much of the investigative work in tracking down the money order used to purchase the rifle which was allegedly used in the assassination. He was also a central figure in the last interrogation of Oswald shortly before he was murdered in the basement of the Dallas City Hall.

-----------------------------------------

(Indian Territory=Oklahoma.)

The website also includes the interview of Holmes by Sneed.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=L2AxAAAAIBAJ&sjid=cwAEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5676,3738023&dq=mrs+holmes+bundles&hl=en

Toledo Blade - Google News Archive - Dec 24, 1953

Holmes is a postal in spector and has been working for the post office department 29 years. The other day Mrs Holmes gave him two bundles of Christmas cards ...

If the length of Holmes's P.O. service displayed above is accurate, it took him close to 18 years to take the initiative to take the postal inspector examination. In 1953, Holmes did not have it together enough to follow his wife's instructions to buy postage stamps, affix them to each of the envelopes in the bundle she had given him, and mail them.

...But ten years later, he is officially presented as a hyperactive sleuth, seemingly everywhere; even gleaning the devious inner workings of the assassin, Oswald's mind!

Also, even though the SSDI search result indicates Holmes was born in "Indian Territory" in 1905, and died in 1989,

I suspect he was as much as ten years older. The info in the post I've replied to states he is in Kansas by 1917, at age 12. The 1953 article indicates he was working at the post office since 1924, when he was age 19.

If he was the son of Harry Holmes and Victoria Labelle of Coal County, Oklahoma, and for now, I can only strongly suspect that he was...census records of 1900 and 1910 show that Harry Holmes, Jr. was born in 1895. The 1920 census record show that his parents and younger siblings are still where they were in 1910, but son Harry and his brother Charles, born in 1897, are no longer listed in 1920.

If I can verify this, then Holmes was 68 in 1963 and nearly 72 when he retired. Was he working past standard retirement age? Is the birth year in his SS death record a clerical error, or a result of a falsification.

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I've pondered some discrepancies re his age, this seems to take it much further. There's so much about him that seems shrouded.

______________

One thing I can add is that after PMG JE Day was ''forced'' to resign by Kennedy in mid '63 over a Civil Rights matter, his replacement refused to go along with the CIA illegal mail openings. Possibly the USPO personnell had split allegiances akin to what happened during the Civil War a hundred years previously.

A year and a half before Nixon disbanded the USPO, the word seems to have been out that this would happen and a number of PI's and others were ''encouraged'' to part ways with this old institution. A source from memory stated it was because ''they knew too much'' or something to that effect, too much of what I don't know.

With the disbanding of the USPO, the traditional inclusion of the PMG in the presidential cabinet came to an end, and also I have never come across any of the, what must have been huge, collection of USPO documentation (which included details on emplyees).

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