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Gary Mack and the Zapruder Film


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I thought I would start this thread so that Jack White, David G. Healy and Bill Miller can discuss this topic on this thread rather than on Gary Mack's policy of selling and not selling certain books in the Sixth Floor Museum.

LMAO --

John -- I doubt I'll be wasting anymore time on Miller, thanks anyway!

DH

Edited by David G. Healy
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This is about the dramatically skewed angle at which the Oswald figure stood in the earliest media presentations of CE 133-A. It defied the laws of physics - and gravity. In real life - one would fall over. But, when clumsily pasting pieces of paper together - no harm - no foul...

There were several references to Sir Isaac Newton and the law of gravity in the old thread - that is the connection...

Photo removed to recapture needed "global space". Although I have deleted every photo I've ever posted here (not that many)... I only ever have enough to post two medium-sized pictures at any one time.

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LMAO --

John -- I doubt I'll be wasting anymore time on Miller, thanks anyway!

DH

From what I remember about a discussion I had with John last fall at the hotel ... he won't lose any sleep over your decision, David.

Bill Miller

Transfered post:

I have noticed of late that Gary is mentioned quite often it seems, re the photos, and

in the information relating to them......that he

relates to some of the members, in whatever, the comparisons, timing, and such...as well as

yourself, in his emailings ..and it is then posted..

Yes, I seek Gary Mack out if needed because after I have solicited one source such a Groden for information, I will then call Gary and ask for other sources that he may be aware of for my own validation purposes. In other words, I just don't hear one thing from an individual and let it go at that ... I want to get a consensus when ever possible in an effort to be sure that the in formation I have gotten is correct. Gary Mack has had a strong interest in Photography and as you must be aware, he has been affiliated with many experts in that area because of his position there with the Museum. I have asked Gary on many occassions if others have started contacting him regularly for information or direction concerning the photographical record and he has told me that I am but of a very few people that ever seek information of that type through the Museum.

Below is some addition infromation I was able to obtain through Gary pertaining to this topic ...

"Bill,

Well, since you asked, here's the answer. The Museum has seven or eight full sets of the Warren Report and 26 volumes in its collection, acquired from several people including the Phil Willis family and Dallas FBI agent Manning Clements.

The Warren Report is sold in the gift shop and is required reading for anyone wanting the basic information (regardless of whether they believe the conclusions or not).

The public is welcome to make an appointment to read them during regular office hours at no charge. The same applies to any video or book in the Museum's library regardless of content or whether it is also available in the store.

Gary"

QUOTE

I have noticed of late that Gary is mentioned quite often it seems, re the photos, and

in the information relating to them......that he

relates to some of the members, in whatever, the comparisons, timing, and such...as well as

yourself, in his emailings ..and it is then posted..

Yes, I seek Gary Mack out if needed because after I have solicited one source such a Groden for information, I will then call Gary and ask for other sources that he may be aware of for my own validation purposes. In other words, I just don't hear one thing from an individual and let it go at that ... I want to get a consensus when ever possible in an effort to be sure that the in formation I have gotten is correct. Gary Mack has had a strong interest in Photography and as you must be aware, he has been affiliated with many experts in that area because of his position there with the Museum. I have asked Gary on many occassions if others have started contacting him regularly for information or direction concerning the photographical record and he has told me that I am but of a very few people that ever seek information of that type through the Museum.

Below is some addition infromation I was able to obtain through Gary pertaining to this topic ...

"Bill,

Well, since you asked, here's the answer. The Museum has seven or eight full sets of the Warren Report and 26 volumes in its collection, acquired from several people including the Phil Willis family and Dallas FBI agent Manning Clements.

The Warren Report is sold in the gift shop and is required reading for anyone wanting the basic information (regardless of whether they believe the conclusions or not).

The public is welcome to make an appointment to read them during regular office hours at no charge. The same applies to any video or book in the Museum's library regardless of content or whether it is also available in the store.

Gary"

***************************

Well I am pleased to hear that he responds to you with said information that you may consult him about..re the photos...so he has had no formal training, but through the fortunate experience of meeting with said experts

he has learned much...well that is similar to many..as I understand it, who have spent many years doing

such...and they are regarded as experts also...

I do believe that most, if not all, do correspond and get others opinions, that are regarded as experts..in that area you and a few are not alone..but there are other experts other than Groden, to consult, if not he certainly would be inundated..and at times, I have read the complaint, that if whomever is not known to

whomever they receive no response, unless they have an intermediary to send on such a request..

Now I realise, that most people are busy, and they cannot possibley reply to hundreds, as that is more than

likely all they would do..so in some cases it is hard to get through. But if they are serious, it does eventually

come about, so you newbies keep trying and hang in there....

I have not been so fortunate, with information from Gary, but that does not mean I may not try again...

and he mostly,has been cordial...at times we all slip..perhaps it was the subject of my requests??

I appreciate your replies...and information that you have related to us.

B

This post has been edited by Bernice Moore: May 29 2006, 06:07 AM

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Bill Miller May 29 2006, 06:33 AM Post #63

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Bernice Moore May 29 2006, 06:06 AM Post #62

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QUOTE(Bill Miller @ May 28 2006, 06:49 AM)

QUOTE

I have noticed of late that Gary is mentioned quite often it seems, re the photos, and

in the information relating to them......that he

relates to some of the members, in whatever, the comparisons, timing, and such...as well as

yourself, in his emailings ..and it is then posted..

Yes, I seek Gary Mack out if needed because after I have solicited one source such a Groden for information, I will then call Gary and ask for other sources that he may be aware of for my own validation purposes. In other words, I just don't hear one thing from an individual and let it go at that ... I want to get a consensus when ever possible in an effort to be sure that the in formation I have gotten is correct. Gary Mack has had a strong interest in Photography and as you must be aware, he has been affiliated with many experts in that area because of his position there with the Museum. I have asked Gary on many occassions if others have started contacting him regularly for information or direction concerning the photographical record and he has told me that I am but of a very few people that ever seek information of that type through the Museum.

Below is some addition infromation I was able to obtain through Gary pertaining to this topic ...

"Bill,

Well, since you asked, here's the answer. The Museum has seven or eight full sets of the Warren Report and 26 volumes in its collection, acquired from several people including the Phil Willis family and Dallas FBI agent Manning Clements.

The Warren Report is sold in the gift shop and is required reading for anyone wanting the basic information (regardless of whether they believe the conclusions or not).

The public is welcome to make an appointment to read them during regular office hours at no charge. The same applies to any video or book in the Museum's library regardless of content or whether it is also available in the store.

Gary"

QUOTE

Well I am pleased to hear that he responds to you with said information that you may consult him about..re the photos...so he has had no formal training, but through the fortunate experience of meeting with said experts ....

Bernice, that is not what I said. Even I have had a hands on class in Photography, but that doesn't make me an expert. It is probably best that you contact Gary to learn more about what experience he has had concerning Photography before drawing your conclusions.

QUOTE

I do believe that most, if not all, do correspond and get others opinions, that are regarded as experts..in that area you and a few are not alone..but there are other experts other than Groden, to consult, if not he certainly would be inundated..and at times, I have read the complaint, that if whomever is not known to

whomever they receive no response, unless they have an intermediary to send on such a request..

Now I realise, that most people are busy, and they cannot possibley reply to hundreds, as that is more than

likely all they would do..so in some cases it is hard to get through. But if they are serious, it does eventually

come about, so you newbies keep trying and hang in there....

If Photography is what your interest is, then the Libraries and the Internet is full of information. One doesn't need Groden to learn about Photography and film.

QUOTE

I have not been so fortunate, with information from Gary, but that does not mean I may not try again...

and he mostly,has been cordial...at times we all slip..perhaps it was the subject of my requests??

I appreciate your replies...and information that you have related to us.

B

Gary is not alway available, but he usually gets back to people who have asked him for information. I would not give up on seeking him out for a source of information.

You are certainly welcome for any infromation that I was able to share with you.

Bill

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Quick Edit Bernice Moore May 29 2006, 10:19 AM Post #64

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Bill: ""Gary Mack has had a strong interest in Photography and as you must be aware, he has been affiliated with many experts in that area because of his position there with the Museum.""

Bernice ""Well I am pleased to hear that he responds to you with said information that you may consult him about..re the photos...so he has had no formal training, but through the fortunate experience of meeting with said experts ....

Bill""Bernice, that is not what I said. Even I have had a hands on class in Photography, but that doesn't make me an expert. It is probably best that you contact Gary to learn more about what experience he has had concerning Photography before drawing your conclusions.""

Bernice: Well I did take what you said, to mean that he was no expert, if in error I am sure he will let us know eventually in one of his emails...

I mentioned the fact that he has been very fortunate in being able to consult with the experts..

I do not think there are diplomas in expertise given out for JFK Reseach...never has been....in any category, but the men and woman who have studied in the past as well as now and in the future, have my enduring admiration, whether anyone considers or calls themselves such, I do not think it important, that is up to them..the students know who has the knowledgeable are for themsleves....but those who have and had the wherewithal to have studied and educated themselves over those years, by some are considered such...Whether you or Gary regard yourselves or will some day of being experts or not, or others considering you or he as such....is entirely up to you ...and them...

The people who have the learned the knowledge within the subjects and who have obtained a degree, in their educations are also most extremely valued, some such as Dr.D.Mantik, Dr.Cyril Wecht, who have given us the opportunity of their special knowledge and "smarts" have added greatly to the findings..and some who have and do say work in the industry..imo.

**************************

Bill:''If Photography is what your interest is, then the Libraries and the Internet is full of information. One doesn't need Groden to learn about Photography and film.""

Bernice: No ,one does not need Groden, there are others and also much information out there for any who are greatly interested..and would like to pursue such in courses or books and such..

**************************

Bernice :""I have not been so fortunate, with information from Gary, but that does not mean I may not try again...

and he mostly,has been cordial...at times we all slip..perhaps it was the subject of my requests?? ""

Bill:""Gary is not alway available, but he usually gets back to people who have asked him for information. I would not give up on seeking him out for a source of information.""

You are certainly welcome for any infromation that I was able to share with you.

Bill""

I appreciate what you have passed along Bill...

******************************

Bill:""It is probably best that you contact Gary to learn more about what experience he has had concerning Photography before drawing your conclusions.""

Well I did receive an email from Gary with a questionable inference today, it is included below as well as my reply, in the middle of all the messy email...and I did try to search him out, as you suggest...but it came back as a "failure notice" this is all I got in response......so I think for now, I will not waste my time again, perhaps in the future ...but not right now...I have never had much luck it seems as far as Gary is concerned, so be it....see below...again I have appreciated your replys...

This email addresses I include,such as Gary's ,you have already posted his on this F...my own many have already.

So no problem..B..

29 May 2006 01:34:40 -0000

From: MAILER-DAEMON@yahoo.com Add to Address Book

Yahoo! DomainKeys has confirmed that this message was sent by yahoo.com. Learn more

To: bmoore1242@rogers.com

Subject: failure notice

Hi. This is the qmail-send program at yahoo.com.

I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following

addresses.

This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out.

Bill Miller May 29 2006, 03:00 PM Post #66

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Bill: ""Gary Mack has had a strong interest in Photography and as you must be aware, he has been affiliated with many experts in that area because of his position there with the Museum.""

Bernice ""Well I am pleased to hear that he responds to you with said information that you may consult him about..re the photos...so he has had no formal training, but through the fortunate experience of meeting with said experts ....

Bill""Bernice, that is not what I said. Even I have had a hands on class in Photography, but that doesn't make me an expert. It is probably best that you contact Gary to learn more about what experience he has had concerning Photography before drawing your conclusions.""

Bernice: Well I did take what you said, to mean that he was no expert, if in error I am sure he will let us know eventually in one of his emails...

Bernice, I will only try and relay this message one more time ... hopefully with more clarity. A person can have formal training in Photography and not be an expert. You implied that I said that Gary has had no formal training and that is not what I had said. You drew an erroneous conclusion that Gary has had no formal training in Photography when I said he 'has had a strong interest in Photography' and I suspect from his answer to your email that this is one type of example to what he was talking about concerning the things you have said. And because Gary has worked with Photographic experts on so many projects and has been there first hand to aks questions, observe, participate, and so on, he is able to pass along valuable information that he has learned through working with these experts.

Gary Mack would not say that he is a Photographic expert any more than I would make such a claim about myself. However, Gary is very knowledgeable about Photography and he has a good understanding of the physics surrounding it. If Gary is an expert in anything, then he is an expert researcher. In other woprds he knows how to find information, retain what he has learned, and is smart enough to apply it to the JFK assassination. Gary is so knowledgeable about the JFK assassination that often times I will cite something in our discussions and if I say even the slightest thing in error, he will always catch it and will explain the differences in what I said Vs. what is rfecorded in the official record.

Bill

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Quick Edit David G. Healy May 29 2006, 06:36 PM Post #67

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'Bill Miller' wrote:

Bill: ""Gary Mack has had a strong interest in Photography and as you must be aware, he has been affiliated with many experts in that area because of his position there with the Museum.""

Bernice ""Well I am pleased to hear that he responds to you with said information that you may consult him about..re the photos...so he has had no formal training, but through the fortunate experience of meeting with said experts ....

Bill""Bernice, that is not what I said. Even I have had a hands on class in Photography, but that doesn't make me an expert. It is probably best that you contact Gary to learn more about what experience he has had concerning Photography before drawing your conclusions.""

Bernice: Well I did take what you said, to mean that he was no expert, if in error I am sure he will let us know eventually in one of his emails...

Bernice, I will only try and relay this message one more time ... hopefully with more clarity. A person can have formal training in Photography and not be an expert. You implied that I said that Gary has had no formal training and that is not what I had said. You drew an erroneous conclusion that Gary has had no formal training in Photography when I said he 'has had a strong interest in Photography' and I suspect from his answer to your email that this is one type of example to what he was talking about concerning the things you have said. And because Gary has worked with Photographic experts on so many projects and has been there first hand to aks questions, observe, participate, and so on, he is able to pass along valuable information that he has learned through working with these experts.

Gary Mack would not say that he is a Photographic expert any more than I would make such a claim about myself. However, Gary is very knowledgeable about Photography and he has a good understanding of the physics surrounding it. If Gary is an expert in anything, then he is an expert researcher. In other woprds he knows how to find information, retain what he has learned, and is smart enough to apply it to the JFK assassination. Gary is so knowledgeable about the JFK assassination that often times I will cite something in our discussions and if I say even the slightest thing in error, he will always catch it and will explain the differences in what I said Vs. what is rfecorded in the official record.

Bill

dgh: hmm, Bill needs a break, perhaps? little R&R ....? [LURKER'S, even for those adamant, US, JFK photo/film researchers, the above is a bit over the top ]

On bended knee,

DHealy

Jack White May 30 2006, 01:03 AM Post #72

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Several years ago before being kicked off of the JFKresearch forum

for misconduct and disruption, "Miller" posted a photo of himself in

full beard. Nobody that I know saved it, so maybe he will replace the

current photo of the red-headed guy with the bearded picture. OK?

Jack

This post has been edited by Jack White: May 30 2006, 01:04 AM

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Bill Miller May 30 2006, 01:30 AM Post #73

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QUOTE(Jack White @ May 30 2006, 01:03 AM)

Several years ago before being kicked off of the JFKresearch forum

for misconduct and disruption, "Miller" posted a photo of himself in

full beard. Nobody that I know saved it, so maybe he will replace the

current photo of the red-headed guy with the bearded picture. OK?

Jack

Jack, you are insane. My so-called being disruptive on the looney forum was for not agreeing with your poorly thoughtout alteration claims. I can also say that it doesn't suprise me that no one has a photo of me in a full beard because I have never worn one, nor have I ever worn a fake one, thus no picture ever existed of me in a beard. As usual you are just making stuff up as you go ... much like your alteration work. It looks like this is just another attempt on your part to hijack another thread.

Bill Miller

Bill Miller May 30 2006, 01:32 PM Post #78

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QUOTE

dgh: What's my lack of respect for YOU and your photo reasearch capabilities [or lack thereof] got to do with MY respect for JFK?

If you respected JFK so much, then you'd be addressing the evidence presented to you instead of trolling in an effort to disrupt the topic. A forum designed to educate people in his name deserves as much ... JFK's memory deserves as much.

QUOTE

Hell, JFK was MY Commander-in-Chief? Yours too? Your father knew JFK too? Deliver votes for him?

JFK was the Commander in Chief of those who killed him and attempted to cover up his murder, so what's your point? As I recall, those around Cesar tried to sell themselves in the same fashion as you're doing and we see how much they respected Cesar. You have a modus-operandi of saying one thing and doing another ... did you think saying you served under JFK means you respected him. Your many actions have spoke louder than your few words.

QUOTE

My piece regarding the Z-film was finished over a month ago... Not one word of it will change now or after Zavada/Fielding post the new, EXTENDED and approved Zavada Report. So, urge those guys on, then I'm gone...

You were never in the game, David. To have been in the game one must first participate by attempting to learn ... something you have refused to do. There are so many checks and balances in determining the authenticity of a film like Zapruder's that you guys never knew about and by the looks of your respnses - you don't understand them either, and yet you always reach the same conclusion even if it means not coming to grips with the information before you. Your taking the position that no matter what information is presented to you will not change your belief is by definition a cult-like mentality, not based on fact, but rather on emotion. JFK deserved better IMO.

Bill Miller

David G. Healy May 31 2006, 07:25 AM Post #86

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QUOTE(Bill Miller @ May 30 2006, 11:32 AM)

QUOTE

dgh: What's my lack of respect for YOU and your photo reasearch capabilities [or lack thereof] got to do with MY respect for JFK?

If you respected JFK so much, then you'd be addressing the evidence presented to you instead of trolling in an effort to disrupt the topic. A forum designed to educate people in his name deserves as much ... JFK's memory deserves as much.

QUOTE

Hell, JFK was MY Commander-in-Chief? Yours too? Your father knew JFK too? Deliver votes for him?

JFK was the Commander in Chief of those who killed him and attempted to cover up his murder, so what's your point? As I recall, those around Cesar tried to sell themselves in the same fashion as you're doing and we see how much they respected Cesar. You have a modus-operandi of saying one thing and doing another ... did you think saying you served under JFK means you respected him. Your many actions have spoke louder than your few words.

QUOTE

My piece regarding the Z-film was finished over a month ago... Not one word of it will change now or after Zavada/Fielding post the new, EXTENDED and approved Zavada Report. So, urge those guys on, then I'm gone...

You were never in the game, David. To have been in the game one must first participate by attempting to learn ... something you have refused to do. There are so many checks and balances in determining the authenticity of a film like Zapruder's that you guys never knew about and by the looks of your respnses - you don't understand them either, and yet you always reach the same conclusion even if it means not coming to grips with the information before you. Your taking the position that no matter what information is presented to you will not change your belief is by definition a cult-like mentality, not based on fact, but rather on emotion. JFK deserved better IMO.

Bill Miller

BMiller

[ the checks and balances citing authenticity of the Zapruder film, especially the ones RZavada doesn't know about -- please put them right here between the brackets] Cult, cult, cult, you losing it there, Bill?

I've no alternative, you've finally reached; STUMP of the MONTH status.

My conclusion has not changed since day one, I can NOT prove the Z-film is altered, period! Were the necessary things present to alter of the Zapruder FILM, including the TIME? Absolutely, ALL of them were....

So, what is it don't YOU understand about the english language, Bill?

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Bill Miller May 31 2006, 11:33 AM Post #87

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QUOTE

My conclusion has not changed since day one, I can NOT prove the Z-film is altered, period! Were the necessary things present to alter of the Zapruder FILM, including the TIME? Absolutely, ALL of them were....

So, what is it don't YOU understand about the english language, Bill?

David, I understand you perfectly and I have made it clear many times that what you are saying DOES NOT address the evidence presented on this forum. You are constantly saying the Zfilm could have been altered in the manner that you suggest and you are correct in theory for you could change the appearence of a film frame from it's original image. However, as I have said repeatedly .... what you have suggested in the way of altering a film could not have gone undetected under close scrutiny and in there lies the difference. That the things I have passed along from the experts would not allow such a forgery to go undetected.

Your time allowance for these alterations is certainly not supported by the experts either. As Jack had said, enlargements would had to of been made and all the alterations taken place before putting them back onto 8MM Kodachrome II film. As Groden points out ... the color balancing of all the frames on that roll of film that also holds the assassination sequence would had to of been done, not by computer, but by hand which would mean redeveloping, readjusting, and processing each image the old fashion way to make it balance perfectly with the prior one on the film. All this would had to of been done before Life started publishing the Zapruder film images showing the shooting sequence. All this work would need to of been done within the first 24 hours of the assassination while not knowing what all the other assassination photographers films would eventually show as those films would be brought forward in the days and weeks that followed. The whole argument becomes ridiculous when put into perspective. None of this even touches on this 'other film' nonsense whereas a fake film was shot of the scene and used to splice in all the needed alterations. Without even getting into all the technical problems such a task would have to take on, that means that all the witnesses seen in the Zapruder film that were not present in any parts of the fake film would also have to of been repositioned by inserting them onto the 'other film' and all this takes up time that simply didn't exist within the first 24 hours of the assassination. And why do I mention the first 24 hour time frame ... because for Life Magazine to start the presses by Sunday - the final product needed to be done because once published, Life would be stuck with whatever the frames showed.

Could someone of altered the Zfilm with an optical printer - YES! Could they have altered the Zfilm in such a way it could not be detected - NO! What you have done is only suggest that a minute part of something COULD have possibly been done. That's like saying it is a possibility to take a trip from the earth to the moon without oxygen by simply holding your breath which in theory it is correct, but realistically it is impossible!

Bill Miller

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Quick Edit David G. Healy May 31 2006, 09:56 PM Post #88

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'Bill Miller' wrote:

QUOTE

My conclusion has not changed since day one, I can NOT prove the Z-film is altered, period! Were the necessary things present to alter of the Zapruder FILM, including the TIME? Absolutely, ALL of them were....

So, what is it don't YOU understand about the english language, Bill?

David, I understand you perfectly and I have made it clear many times that what you are saying DOES NOT address the evidence presented on this forum.

dgh01: what evidence have you presented on this forum? Appears to me what YOU present and lamson and Colby present is ALL conjecture and opinion. I'll gladly review ANY evidence regarding the authenticity of the Z-film

You are constantly saying the Zfilm could have been altered in the manner that you suggest and you are correct in theory for you could change the appearence of a film frame from it's original image.

dgh01: duh!

However, as I have said repeatedly .... what you have suggested in the way of altering a film could not have gone undetected under close scrutiny and in there lies the difference. That the things I have passed along from the experts would not allow such a forgery to go undetected.

dgh01: well you'll have no problem posting right here what a frame looks like that has gone through the process -- what-the-hell is holding you up -- no more polka dot patterns, please the real deal. Or is you can't post because of the needed requirement, could it be, you CAN'T get access to a 1st generation Z-film frame? If that's the case, no wonder your dance keeps going round and round and round....

Your time allowance for these alterations is certainly not supported by the experts either.

dgh01: it isn't please post the actual date when Shaneyfelt numbered the film -- personally I could careless about your experts, there wasn't one damn film/photo expert sitting on the Warren Commission, was there?...

As Jack had said, enlargements would had to of been made and all the alterations taken place before putting them back onto 8MM Kodachrome II film.

dgh01: is that the way I suggested the film was altered? Maybe you should be speaking to Groden about **rotoscoping** you do understand that term, correct?

As Groden points out ... the color balancing of all the frames on that roll of film that also holds the assassination sequence would had to of been done, not by computer, but by hand which would mean redeveloping, readjusting, and processing each image the old fashion way to make it balance perfectly with the prior one on the film.

dgh01: bullxxxx, get Groden in here to tell me himself, we can talk 'light house packs' -- he and I can dance, from what I've been told he's stood at a optical printer more than once...

All this would had to of been done before Life started publishing the Zapruder film images showing the shooting sequence. All this work would need to of been done within the first 24 hours of the assassination while not knowing what all the other assassination photographers films would eventually show as those films would be brought forward in the days and weeks that followed. The whole argument becomes ridiculous when put into perspective. None of this even touches on this 'other film' nonsense whereas a fake film was shot of the scene and used to splice in all the needed alterations. Without even getting into all the technical problems such a task would have to take on, that means that all the witnesses seen in the Zapruder film that were not present in any parts of the fake film would also have to of been repositioned by inserting them onto the 'other film' and all this takes up time that simply didn't exist within the first 24 hours of the assassination. And why do I mention the first 24 hour time frame ... because for Life Magazine to start the presses by Sunday - the final product needed to be done because once published, Life would be stuck with whatever the frames showed.

: dgh01: so were those frames numberd? Seems I've asked this question of you countless times, yet you keep regurgitating the same nonesense.... copying and pasting again, huh?

Could someone of altered the Zfilm with an optical printer - YES! Could they have altered the Zfilm in such a way it could not be detected - NO! What you have done is only suggest that a minute part of something COULD have possibly been done. That's like saying it is a possibility to take a trip from the earth to the moon without oxygen by simply holding your breath which in theory it is correct, but realistically it is impossible!

dgh01: ahhhhhh... above Bill said: "Could they have altered the Zfilm in such a way it could not be detected - NO!", as a motion image compositor, I probably a have a differing idea about that... and, do you think the Warren Commssion knew the difference between 8,16 and 35mm film? Better yet, you think Shaneyfelt had the qualifications to say, whoops, who altered this film, think the question was ever, EVER raised-- Me, I doubt the question was ever raised by or to anyone associated with the WC investigation

Bill Miller

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Bill Miller May 31 2006, 11:13 PM Post #89

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QUOTE

dgh01: what evidence have you presented on this forum? Appears to me what YOU present and lamson and Colby present is ALL conjecture and opinion. I'll gladly review ANY evidence regarding the authenticity of the Z-film

Go back and read it ... that is the beauty of a forum like this one - the material is archived for someone like yourself who was too busy trolling to actually read the threads.

QUOTE

dgh01: well you'll have no problem posting right here what a frame looks like that has gone through the process -- what-the-hell is holding you up -- no more polka dot patterns, please the real deal. Or is you can't post because of the needed requirement, could it be, you CAN'T get access to a 1st generation Z-film frame? If that's the case, no wonder your dance keeps going round and round and round....

post-1084-1149263261_thumb.gif

David, it's been done, but you were too busy running your mouth to see it. The web page of Costella shows a original Zfilm print Vs. one that was processed as MPI did with the film. Even Costella mentioned one being so much sharper than the other. If you cannot get passed the easy stuff, why waste time showing you anything else. And besides, we are talking about testing that is done on the original with high magnification ... you continue to ask for something that takes hands on examination to do. It's like asking someone to post the itch that a mosquito bite brings. One can explain the physics of it - one can even understand it if they are smart enough - and one doesn't have to be bitten to know that it itches.

QUOTE

dgh01: it isn't please post the actual date when Shaneyfelt numbered the film -- personally I could careless about your experts, there wasn't one damn film/photo expert sitting on the Warren Commission, was there?...

Who cares ... the Zapruder film has since then been studied by experts using forms of advanced methods that wasn't even available in 1963, so your logic is terrlibly flawed.

QUOTE

dgh01: is that the way I suggested the film was altered? Maybe you should be speaking to Groden about **rotoscoping** you do understand that term, correct?

I have discussed with Groden your claims and he thinks you are an idiot who only knows optical printing and not the rest of the data needed to attempt a forgery.

QUOTE

dgh01: bullxxxx, get Groden in here to tell me himself, we can talk 'light house packs' -- he and I can dance, from what I've been told he's stood at a optical printer more than once...

Feel free to email Groden at RobertG1@airmail.net and discuss your issues with him personally. Then feel free to post them even though I am sure because of what he tells you that you will not want others to know the whole story.

QUOTE

dgh01: so were those frames numberd? Seems I've asked this question of you countless times, yet you keep regurgitating the same nonesense.... copying and pasting again, huh?

Shaneyfelt said he started working on the film copy the last week of January. I believe it has been said that the first thing he did was number the frames for referencing purposes. His personal notes have been turned over to the 6th Floor Museum ... feel free to inquire about his notes there. I will say this however, when Shaneyfelt numbered the frames is irrelevant to the films authenticity. I believe that several places that examined the film had numbered the frames that they had worked on - even started at a different number. Just like with the thread where Jack used Z410 from Costella's web page and I used MPI's Z408 ... they are still one in the same frame regardless what number someone placed on them.

QUOTE

dgh01: ahhhhhh... above Bill said: "Could they have altered the Zfilm in such a way it could not be detected - NO!", as a motion image compositor, I probably a have a differing idea about that... and, do you think the Warren Commssion knew the difference between 8,16 and 35mm film? Better yet, you think Shaneyfelt had the qualifications to say, whoops, who altered this film, think the question was ever, EVER raised-- Me, I doubt the question was ever raised by or to anyone associated with the WC investigation

Again with the smoke and mirrors. The Zfilm has been examined by experts who used modern methods of verifying the film, so what the WC did or didn't do is meaningless. But let's assume the WC had examined the film in every way possible and used the best experts ... you'd then be sitting here trolling this forum and bitching that their methods were outdated and unreliable. That is why I don't waste time whining about what the Commission did and did not do for its since been done by way of more accurate and advanced methods the commission and their experts could have used by 1963/64 standards.

Bill Miller

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Quick Edit David G. Healy Yesterday, 12:23 AM Post #90

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dgh01: what evidence have you presented on this forum? Appears to me what YOU present and lamson and Colby present is ALL conjecture and opinion. I'll gladly review ANY evidence regarding the authenticity of the Z-film

Go back and read it ... that is the beauty of a forum like this one - the material is archived for someone like yourself who was too busy trolling to actually read the threads.

dgh01: well you'll have no problem posting right here what a frame looks like that has gone through the process -- what-the-hell is holding you up -- no more polka dot patterns, please the real deal. Or is you can't post because of the needed requirement, could it be, you CAN'T get access to a 1st generation Z-film frame? If that's the case, no wonder your dance keeps going round and round and round....

David, it's been done, but you were too busy running your mouth to see it. The web page of Costella shows a original Zfilm print Vs. one that was processed as MPI did with the film. Even Costella mentioned one being so much sharper than the other. If you cannot get passed the easy stuff, why waste time showing you anything else. And besides, we are talking about testing that is done on the original with high magnification ... you continue to ask for something that takes hands on examination to do. It's like asking someone to post the itch that a mosquito bite brings. One can explain the physics of it - one can even understand it if they are smart enough - and one doesn't have to be bitten to know that it itches.

dgh02: ROFLMAO -- Not on your life has it been done, if it had, you'd be plastering it all over the internet, so the best you and all the rest can do is TREAD water... Oh hell, you make this too easy: no Bill Miller, not the nonesense you post -- not Costella frames, not JWhites frames, not MPI frames, not Healy frames -- GET Groden's 35mm frames, show us that. Your buds with all these dudes, your their go-to guy... gett'er done!---

dgh01: it isn't please post the actual date when Shaneyfelt numbered the film -- personally I could careless about your experts, there wasn't one damn film/photo expert sitting on the Warren Commission, was there?...

Who cares ... the Zapruder film has since then been studied by experts using forms of advanced methods that wasn't even available in 1963, so your logic is terrlibly flawed.

dgh02: what experts have studied the Zapruder regarding authenticity, Roland Zavada? He can't convince anyone Zapruder's B&H414 took the alledged Zapruder film

dgh01: is that the way I suggested the film was altered? Maybe you should be speaking to Groden about **rotoscoping** you do understand that term, correct?

I have discussed with Groden your claims and he thinks you are an idiot who only knows optical printing and not the rest of the data needed to attempt a forgery.

dgh02: of course he does, what with all his displayed courage, nobody around here will be impressed with all his "technical" expertise regarding optical film printing... Besides he's got plenty of morons to do his bidding

dgh01: bullxxxx, get Groden in here to tell me himself, we can talk 'light house packs' -- he and I can dance, from what I've been told he's stood at a optical printer more than once...

Feel free to email Groden at RobertG1@airmail.net and discuss your issues with him personally. Then feel free to post them even though I am sure because of what he tells you that you will not want others to know the whole story.

dgh02: Why? Robert G can't handle the pressure of appearing here in person? If he did, I'd insist on Larry Peter's vetting him, thoroughly-- LOL!

dgh01: so were those frames numberd? Seems I've asked this question of you countless times, yet you keep regurgitating the same nonesense.... copying and pasting again, huh?

Shaneyfelt said he started working on the film copy the last week of January. I believe it has been said that the first thing he did was number the frames for referencing purposes. His personal notes have been turned over to the 6th Floor Museum ... feel free to inquire about his notes there. I will say this however, when Shaneyfelt numbered the frames is irrelevant to the films authenticity.

dgh02: Really? Irrelevant.... funny this about chain of evidence issues.... his numbering the frames tells us where the Z-film in-camera original is/was at that particular date --- did he number the frames based on the original OR a optical print, or a print of a print of a print -- nobody knows there Bill. Then again if the film was altered very early on, he numbered the film frames based on a altered film? That would be a pisser, wouldn't it? Can you help us out?

"Last week of January", I suspect counselor he'd have to be a bit more specific that that.....

I believe that several places that examined the film had numbered the frames that they had worked on - even started at a different number. Just like with the htread where Jack used Z410 from Costella's web page and I used MPI's Z408 ... they are still one in the same frame regardless what number someone placed on them.[/b]

dgh02: what you believe or I believe is irrelevant, just the facts counselor, just the facts

dgh01: ahhhhhh... above Bill said: "Could they have altered the Zfilm in such a way it could not be detected - NO!", as a motion image compositor, I probably a have a differing idea about that... and, do you think the Warren Commssion knew the difference between 8,16 and 35mm film? Better yet, you think Shaneyfelt had the qualifications to say, whoops, who altered this film, think the question was ever, EVER raised-- Me, I doubt the question was ever raised by or to anyone associated with the WC investigation

Again with the smoke and mirrors. The Zfilm has been examined by experts who used modern methods of verifying the film, so what the WC did or didn't do is meaningless. But lest assume the WC had examined the film in every way possible and used the best experts ... you'd then be sitting here trolling this forum and bitching that their methods were outdated and unreliable. That is why I don't waste time whining about what the Commission did and did not do for its since been done by way of more accurate and advanced methods the commission and their experts could have used by 1963/64 standards.

dgh02: the only FACT counsellor is, your not aware, nor can you prove any *alledged* FACT concerning the Z-film. Whinning? Whinning ? If you don't whine about the Z-film, how in the hell do you think any credible CT'er can believe ANYTHING you have to say about the assassination?

Maybe Mr. Groden can help us out, ya think...

Bill Mille

Bill Miller Yesterday, 01:17 AM Post #91

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QUOTE

dgh02: ROFLMAO -- Not on your life has it been done, if it had, you'd be plastering it all over the internet, so the best you and all the rest can do is TREAD water... Oh hell, you make this too easy: no Bill Miller, not the nonesense you post -- not Costella frames, not JWhites frames, not MPI frames, not Healy frames -- GET Groden's 35mm frames, show us that. Your buds with all these dudes, your their go-to guy... gett'er done!---

David, you haven't given anyone a hint that you're able to follow the basics that have been presented to you, so why would anyone want to show you anything that takes even more understanding. I just showed you how the processes of making copies causes one to lose the sharpness of the original image by comparing the Life 1st generation prints against the MPI third generation prints and it seems to go right over your head. I don't give a damned if it is a Zapruder film image or any other film that ever existed ... the same rules of getting further away from the original image when making copies apply to everything.

dgh01: it isn't please post the actual date when Shaneyfelt numbered the film -- personally I could careless about your experts, there wasn't one damn film/photo expert sitting on the Warren Commission, was there?...

Who cares ... the Zapruder film has since then been studied by experts using forms of advanced methods that wasn't even available in 1963, so your logic is terrlibly flawed.

QUOTE

dgh02: what experts have studied the Zapruder regarding authenticity, Roland Zavada? He can't convince anyone Zapruder's B&H414 took the alledged Zapruder film

Zavada and Groden have authenticated the film. What experts weren't convinced otherwise that you know ... the guy who couldn't understand why Life's first generation prints were sharper than the MPI images or the guy who can't tell that his recreation Moorman photo doesn't show the gap between the Pedestal and the colonnade window compared to Moorman's photo?

QUOTE

dgh02: of course he does, what with all his displayed courage, nobody around here will be impressed with all his "technical" expertise regarding optical film printing... Besides he's got plenty of morons to do his bidding

I'm not sure who you are talking for, but they should know that Groden is not only a Photography expert, but he also achieved the highest level of experience in optical printing that one can reach. Once again you fail to tell the whole story.

QUOTE

dgh02: Why? Robert G can't handle the pressure of appearing here in person? If he did, I'd insist on Larry Peter's vetting him, thoroughly-- LOL!

Again with the 'I need Sir Issac Newton here in person to tell me that the laws of gravity are valid' ... what a stupid position to try to embrace. It isn't hard to see why people of higher qualifications don't waste their time on you any longer.

QUOTE

dgh02: Then again if the film was altered very early on, he numbered the film frames based on a altered film? That would be a pisser, wouldn't it?

And if you knew anything about how to determine if a film is a copy or an original film, then you'd not be wasting so much forum space. Ignorance is not a defense, David.

QUOTE

dgh02: the only FACT counsellor is, your not aware, nor can you prove any *alledged* FACT concerning the Z-film. Whinning? Whinning ? If you don't whine about the Z-film, how in the hell do you think any credible CT'er can believe ANYTHING you have to say about the assassination?

Maybe Mr. Groden can help us out, ya think...

I don't think Groden can help someone who doesn't want to be helped. First you tell people you don't care what Groden thinks and then you want to solicit information from him. It's like you have two personalities and both are mental cases.

Bill Miller

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Quick Edit J. Raymond Carroll Yesterday, 02:01 AM Post #92

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QUOTE(Bill Miller @ May 31 2006, 10:33 AM)

That's like saying it is a possibility to take a trip from the earth to the moon without oxygen by simply holding your breath which in theory it is correct, but realistically it is impossible!

Bill Miller[/b]

I always enjoy Bill Miller's posts, and I always learn something from them, but I have to speak out and say that this metaphor is simply priceless beyond words.

Thanks again, Bill.

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Michael Hogan Yesterday, 02:59 AM Post #93

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Mr. Carroll wrote:

I always enjoy Bill Miller's posts, and I always learn something from them, but I have to speak out and say that this metaphor is simply priceless beyond words.

This time I wholeheartedly agree with him.

Mike Hogan

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David G. Healy Yesterday, 04:54 AM Post #94

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'Bill Miller' continues:

dgh02: ROFLMAO -- Not on your life has it been done, if it had, you'd be plastering it all over the internet, so the best you and all the rest can do is TREAD water... Oh hell, you make this too easy: no Bill Miller, not the nonesense you post -- not Costella frames, not JWhites frames, not MPI frames, not Healy frames -- GET Groden's 35mm frames, show us that. Your buds with all these dudes, your their go-to guy... gett'er done!---

David, you haven't given anyone a hint that you're able to follow the basics that have been presented to you, so why would anyone want to show you anything that takes even more understanding. I just showed you how the processes of making copies cause one to lose the sharpness of the original image by comparing the Life 1st generation prints against the MPI third generation prints and it sems to go right over your head. I don't give a damned if it is a Zapruder film image or any other film that ever existed ... the same rules of getting further away from the original image when making copies apply to everything.

dgh03: now Bill, right in front of me is the Nov 29th 1963 issue of LIFE magazine, the Zapruder film images (not numbered) are all b&w they're absolutely horrible - lousey resolution image on a black background, contrast max'ed out, make it/them reasonably small [we do the same when we need to use lo-rez imagery, such as VHS for broadcast], then hope nobody notices.... so let's scratch those images, not worthwhile from photo/film a researcher point of view. And certainly we do not see the Z-film running, so these images are essentially a bust... Now these published images are the ones that *prove* no alteration happened to the Zapruder film? Would you care to comment on HOW that proves the Z-film wasn't altered? I say, hogwash.... When it comes to image resolution... my grandson draws better cartoons...that relates to all 30+ published frames in that issue.

Then there's the 10 color images in the Memorial edition, what do those mean when it comes to "proof the Zapruder film was not altered? I do believe JCostella had quite a bit to talk about regarding image number 3 in that edition. something about it being impossible the foreground and background in that image being in perfect focus, when panning one or the other has to be out of focus, right -- can you or Groden explain that anomoly? There's a whole lot of people that would like to put that one to bed.

Finally, your not strong enough to throw something over my head concerning this particular subject matter.

Have you EVER seen an original Z-film frame?

Now the frames in the October 2nd 1964 Life issue; those are in color, and NOT Shaneyfelt z-frame numbered interesting by-it-self (why is that, they were numbered months prior) ... so, your MPI imagery is 3rd generation? You did do the old de-interlace gig on those MPI images didn't you? After all the MPI images are all NTSC 2field MPEG-2 720x480 images, might account for some blurriness, actually, I guarantee it.... Back to the drawing board

You ever see those images in LIFE magaznes Nov 25th 1966 issue? Now these frames are numbered, why oh why did it take that long to get those numbers out to the general public, makes one wonder. At that, only one frame published after 248, 312! Hmm, and you wonder why there's questions of alteration -- November 25th 1966

dgh01: it isn't please post the actual date when Shaneyfelt numbered the film -- personally I could careless about your experts, there wasn't one damn film/photo expert sitting on the Warren Commission, was there?...

Who cares ... the Zapruder film has since then been studied by experts using forms of advanced methods that wasn't even available in 1963, so your logic is terrlibly flawed.

dgh03: it has? WHO? and when -- gotta tell ya, I don't think it was studied in-depth from 1963 till 198? I'd say thats plenty of time to do anything to the film, if one desired.

dgh02: what experts have studied the Zapruder regarding authenticity, Roland Zavada? He can't convince anyone Zapruder's B&H414 took the alledged Zapruder film

Zavada and Groden have authenticated the film. What experts weren't convinced otherwise that you know ... the guy who couldn't understand why Life's first generation prints were sharper than the MPI images or the guy who can't tell that his recreation Moorman photo doesn't show the gap between the Pedestal and the colonnade window compared to Moorman's photo?

dgh03: there you go, AGAIN -- well, we're waiting for Rollie and Ray -- so what about Groden, he have 1st generation prints of LIFE's in-camera Zapruder original? After all, he's a expert on the film, right? Maybe that's the reason why he won't show up here....

dgh02: of course he does, what with all his displayed courage, nobody around here will be impressed with all his "technical" expertise regarding optical film printing... Besides he's got plenty of morons to do his bidding

I'm not sure who you are talking for, but they should know that Groden is not only a Photography expert, but he also achieved the highest level of experience in optical printing that one can reach. Once again you fail to tell the whole story.

dgh03: didn't do too good as a photo expert when he testified during the OJ case, did he... win some-you lose some. The highest level, he did? He have any credits we can check, I'm sure Hollyweird would of sought him out if he was THAT good! From what I can understand and by the tone of Mo's testimony, Zavada's report and David Lifton's comment... Mo wasn't a happy camper when he found out his "not so perfect copy" of the 8mm-35mm blowup got him in front of a congressional investigation... Anyway, with all that expertise why not drop by and set my misgivings right.... ?

dgh02: Why? Robert G can't handle the pressure of appearing here in person? If he did, I'd insist on Larry Peter's vetting him, thoroughly-- LOL!

Once again with the 'I need Sir Issac Newton here in person to tell me that the laws of gravity are valid' ... what a stupid position to ty and embrace. It isn't hard to see why people of higher qualifications don't waste time on you any longer.

dgh03: no Bill, don't

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dgh: course I'm serious champ -- the holy grail of the JFK assassination & the SBT is questioned, that same 'film' holy grail is now under the control of the 6th floor museum, ergo Gary Mack,

If you were serious, then you would not have said, "the 6th floor museum has been assigned the chore to administer/preserve the in-camera Zapruder Film." That statement is false. The only control the museum has on the Zapruder film is the copyrights. In other words, anyone wanting to use the Zapruder images in a book, movie, etc., must submit a request to the museum. I also think that if you were serious, then you would have posted your last response in the correct thread ... this one was supposed to be about the conspiracy material that the museum does and does not carry in their book store.

As far as analogy's go -- yours, as well as others entire position regarding the the Zapruder film is based on: "someone told me its the real deal, therefore it is the real deal"! Of course you've absolutely no experience in verifying same other than more of: take my word for it, it's the real deal, so and so sent me this url, I made a .gif animation...., so and so told me, and on and on and ON! ZERO verification... Sorry, Pal, Some say; Bull Pookey

David, your thinking is so twisted that I find it astonishing! Of course someone told me so ... it was an Film expert who actually examined the Zapruder film. I mean, what do you think you are going to do ... look at the Zfilm yourself and be able to authenticate it? Le3t me ask you this, why do patholigist do autopsies and why do courts use their findings? To take your position one would be arging that we are only taking the pathologist word for his finds and that somehow his findings are suspect until each person in the courtroom gets to run the test themselves - that is a very idiotic and asinine postion to take IMO and if that is the best rebuttal you have on the Zfilms authenticity, then you have no rebuttal.

dgh: I do believe I'm on point here...is there a problem in my responding to a question from pat Speer, or are you trying to highjack THIS thread?

The only problem I saw was your responding with erroneous data which needed correcting.

dgh: NOW, your an editor? LMAO! and.... correcting; the Zapruder film by who, YOU?

No, David ... I am just a guy who bothered to learn the history concerning the Zapruder film so to know when someone says, "the 6th floor museum has been assigned the chore to administer/preserve the in-camera Zapruder Film" ... I'll know they don't know what they are talking about.

Bill Miller

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