How many shots were fired?

[Lee Forman]

I have read an awful lot of material surrounding the sequence, the locations and the number of shots that were fired during the Assassination. It becomes very confusing when efforts are made to determine chronology, sequence, location of shot, and impact, and I recognize that there are many different theories. What I'd like to present for the panel is a simple accounting to [possibly] gain consensus, or at least additional insight as to the actual number of shots fired.

1 shot hit Elm street pavement behind the motorcade

1 shot hit President Kennedy in the throat

1 shot hit President Kennedy in the back

1 shot hit President Kennedy in the back of his head

1 shot hit President Kennedy in the front right side of his head

1 shot hit Conally in his back

1 shot hit Conally in his wrist

1 shot embedded in limo dashboard

1 shot struck curb [Tague]

1 shot struck sidewalk near manhole cover

1 shot struck Stemmon's Freeway sign

That would give us a total of 11 shots fired.

Questions:

- Did another shot end up in Connally's leg, or is it accounted for above?

- Were the 2 shots in the grass between Elm and Main street also misses, or are they somehow accounted for in the tally above?

- Did another shot strike the sidewalk, and is this accounted for in the tally?

- Did the shot that penetrated the windshield hit Kennedy in the throat, sending glass fragments into the right side of his face, which then later had to be plugged by Tom Robinson when he was filling the body with embalming fluid?

- Was Kennedy hit more than 4 times [e.g., 'other' back wound and wound to right forehead]?

- Were silencers used for some of these shots?

- Are there any shots missing in my list?

Kind regards,

Lee Forman

[Wim Dankbaar]

Great Post, Lee!

Whatever the case, it's clear that many more than the Warren Commission's three shots were fired. It is also clear that people like Specter and Ford knew this. Make no mistake about it. These men deceived the american public KNOWINGLY and WILLFULLY. They are outright criminals and they know it too. Which is why they refuse to take any more questions on the subject.

It is also important to note that Specter invented the single bullet theory ONLY AFTER the Warren Commission could no longer ignore the testimony of James Tague. Before that , they had three hits (Kennedy back, Kennedy head and Connally). Now the logical and resposible investigative approach when you have to account for an extra miss, is to go and look for more shots and thus more gunmen. Instead they desperately clung to their "lone nut" and concocted the magic bullet, accounting for all those wounds of BOTH JFK and Connally. In addition, It can now be proven they LIED and TAMPERED to pull it off.

But these are just two individuals. What is even more concerning, is that we have a whole machinery (including big TV networks like ABC) perpetrating the hoax, even today.

Wim

Edited May 4, 2004 by dankbaar

[John Simkin]

I have read an awful lot of material surrounding the sequence, the locations and the number of shots that were fired during the Assassination. It becomes very confusing when efforts are made to determine chronology, sequence, location of shot, and impact, and I recognize that there are many different theories. What I'd like to present for the panel is a simple accounting to [possibly] gain consensus, or at least additional insight as to the actual number of shots fired.

During the House Select Committee of Assassinations investigation in 1976 it was discovered that the Dallas Police had a recording of the assassination. A microphone, mounted on one of the motorcycles escorting the motorcade, had picked up sounds in Dealey Plaza at the time of the assassination. Acoustic experts analysed the recording and were able to distinguish four rifle shots. They concluded that there was a 95 per cent probability of the third bullet was fired from the Grassy Knoll.

As a result of this acoustic evidence G. Robert Blakey was able to state that there were "four shots, over a total period of 7.91 seconds were fired at the Presidential limousine. The first, second and fourth came from the Depository; the third from the Grassy Knoll."

The House Select Committee on Assassinations concluded that ""scientific acoustical evidence establishes a high probability that two gunmen fired at President John F. Kennedy." It added that on the basis of the evidence available to it, that President John F. Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy. The committee is unable to identify the other gunman or the extent of the conspiracy."

[Lee Forman]

Hi John!

Yes - that was the official conclusion of the HSCA, but the number of bullets demonstrates that this data was clearly unreliable for the purpose of making that determination.

- There was limited research performed by this committee in terms of locations when attempting to get a fix on where shots were fired from. For example, was the DalTex tested? The County Records building? The storm drains? No. I believe this investigation was specific to proving a Grassy Knoll shooter.

- Echoes due to building proximities created another challenge.

- I believe that the result of the investigation was that it was determined that the open microphone was caused by Officer McClain, who was approximately 154 feet behind the Presidential limo. What impact would that have on the quality of the sound?

- Chauncey's testimony, if credible, would lead one to believe that ammo was created and sent ahead for use in the assassination which could be used for diversionary tactics, eg, loud and noisy but with no velocity. This would be consistent with theories surrounding whomever it was that was firing from the LHO sniper' nest - a total diversion.

- Robert Groden conducted his own investigation with the experts used by the HSCA, Mark Weiss and Ernest Aschkenasy, and they were able to conclude that while there were 4 audible shots recorded, there were an additional 2 sounds that also may have been shots, which would leave a total of 6 [see "The Killing of a President," Viking Studio Books, NY, 1993 page 173]

- As per Frames 312 - 313 of the Zapruder film, the President's head appears to be in forward motion, just prior to the fatal, and last, head shot from front right, which threw the President's head, "back and to the left." This would support a last shot to the head from the rear occurring almost simultaneously with the Grass Knoll shot - as attested to by James E Files in his confession. If accurate, would this sound have been captured separately, or as one sound?

- As attested by listening to the dictabelt, Officer McClain's timely jamming of the radio left numerous Police Officers with efforts to engage the frequency. Did these multiple attempts to use the channel have any impact on the sound quality?

- The use of silencers would eliminate all reliability of this type of data.

Invented 1909: Gun silencer: Hiram Percy Maxim.

- There was some research the concluded that the Police dictabelt had been tampered with, since JD Tippit originally had no business racing around in the Oak Cliff area. I can find this reference if required, but essentially it amounted to a voiceover being introduced after-the-fact [audio tests were performed] to give credibility to Tippit's questionable actions following the assassination.

And finally, when we review the number of wounds, and evidence of bullets striking the pavement, sidewalks, curbs, grass, the sign, etc. 4 is another impossibly magical number. It's still my conviction that some 11 or more shots were fired.

- lee

[Wim Dankbaar]

Also, there were more "spikes" on the tape, but only four that could be determined to be gunshots.

Wim

[Shanet Clark]

Lee

Great thread--I'll bring it back up to the top...

Eleven shots, that's reasonable...for a number of years I have believed there was a long "L" sniper ambush with three shooters and three back-up radio men, six principles. A team in the Dal-Tex, a team on the Book Depository ROOF and a team at the fence above the grassy knoll. The dal-tex shooters got the back shot and the head shot, the rooftop team got connally and fired off-range and the 'badgeman' team got in the initial throat shot and the right scalp shot, with the windshield (dashboard), Tague, grass (in photo) shot and stemmons sign shot coming from the two rear angles. Howard Hunt and Charles Harrelson look a lot like the photographed "bums", (and Harrelson confessed) then there is Frenchy, probably an Algerian hitman that David Ferrie flew out of the country, but who was on the roof and inside the Dal-Tex building? Mr. Sturgis and Mr. Ruby? We don't know---but thank you for quantifying the high number, I would hold at nine, three from each position....the activity at the railyard tower shows an elevated site co-ordinator and of course, the autopsy, ballistics and limousine were all so hopelessly scrambled, for instance the whole windshield and freeway sign switcheroo thing, and god only knows what happened to the Presidents skull and brain...but it was a bloody barrage, John Connally probably got hit twice, and poor John Kennedy four or five times (throat, back, back, head, head), etc. Conspiracy before, during, and after the fact.

Shanet

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[Shanet Clark]

For a number of reasons: Provenance, Acoustics, Contamination, etc.

I have never put as much faith in the police tape as you all.

shanet

[Tim Carroll]

Lee

Great thread--I'll bring it back up to the top...

Eleven shots, that's reasonable...for a number of years I have believed there was a long "L" sniper ambush with three shooters and three back-up radio men, six principles.  A team in the Dal-Tex, a team on the Book Depository ROOF and a team at the fence above the grassy knoll. The dal-tex shooters got the back shot and the head shot, the rooftop team got connally and fired off-range and the 'badgeman' team got in the initial throat shot and the right scalp shot, with the windshield (dashboard), Tague, grass (in photo) shot and stemmons sign shot coming from the two rear angles.  Howard Hunt and Charles Harrelson look a lot like the photographed "bums", (and Harrelson confessed) then there is Frenchy, probably an Algerian hitman that David Ferrie flew out of the country, but who was on the roof and inside the Dal-Tex building? Mr. Sturgis and Mr. Ruby? We don't know---but thank you for quantifying the high number, I would hold at nine, three from each position....the activity at the railyard tower shows an elevated site co-ordinator and of course, the autopsy, ballistics and limousine were all so hopelessly scrambled, for instance the whole windshield and freeway sign switcheroo thing, and god only knows what happened to the Presidents skull and brain...but it was a bloody barrage, John Connally probably got hit twice, and poor John Kennedy four or five times (throat, back, back, head, head), etc.  Conspiracy before, during, and after the fact.

Shanet

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Excellent post, Shanet!

The only exception I take, and it's minor to the scale of your rendition, is that the Dal-Tex shooter would not have been located on the roof of the Dal-Tex building. Reverse trajectory from the Tague curb hit traces back to the second or third floor of the building. There were three teams with three timed vollies. The first volley was so early that the TSBD assassin was shooting through the tree and missed at the time of the first throat wound, which came from the grassy knoll and the back wound from the Dal-Tex. The second volley hit Connally in the back from the TSBD, and Connally in the wrist from the Grassy Knoll. The Dal-Tex shooter missed, with the bullet carrying on to the the curb near Tague. The third volley was a double hit on JFK's head from the grassy knoll and the TSBD. The process of elimination leaves the Dal-Tex shooter as having hit the Stemmons Freeway sign on the third volley. That would still make the logical nine shots from three teams.

Tim

Edited October 15, 2004 by Tim Carroll

[Shanet Clark]

Tim

Thanks, you put a better order to the rough scheme I developed over the years.

Thanks for the support. This is the "History" that is not in the textbooks,

the unpeakable reality of political violence, where John Kennedy was

murdered by his militant reactionary political opposition.

Shanet Clark

((((((Excellent post, Shanet!

The only exception I take, and it's minor to the scale of your rendition, is that the Dal-Tex shooter would not have been located on the roof of the Dal-Tex building. Reverse trajectory from the Tague curb hit traces back to the second or third floor of the building. There were three teams with three timed vollies. The first volley was so early that the TSBD assassin was shooting through the tree and missed at the time of the first throat wound, which came from the grassy knoll and the back wound from the Dal-Tex. The second volley hit Connally in the back from the TSBD, and Connally in the wrist from the Grassy Knoll. The Dal-Tex shooter missed, with the bullet carrying on to the the curb near Tague. The third volley was a double hit on JFK's head from the grassy knoll and the TSBD. If the Dal-Tex shooter missed on the third volley, that would still make the logical nine shots from three teams.))))

Tim

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[Michael Clark]

Bump

[Micah Mileto]

Was the Stemmons Sign shot idea ever taken very seriously? What's the evidence?