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North Knoll Shot at Picket fence


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I Speculate:

Is It possible? Who is good at math?

The Limo had a two side roof braces 16"x10" BP windows acting as a support column on each side of limo to support the roof when installed. It is behind the driver and front passenger. It connects to the top of the window, bracing on each side to support the roof.

At the location of the shots and considering the elevation of the shooter at the picket fence alleged badge man or further west alleged J Files and the angle of the elevation of the approaching limo at first turning into the shooter, it appears this shot would have hit the right window or upper frame support, right side, before it could hit Kennedy in the right front head shot.

The Stemons sign to the kill zone of the 2nd or 3rd shot and the elevation of the hill at the limo's location and the elevation of the shooter at that same point just before the limo started down in elevation toward the underpass appears to put this roof support railing or window in line with that shot. The slight curve (toward the s/w) away from the direct line of fire happened after the fatal head shot. This same slight curve would aid a shooter from the south end of the triple underpass to make a shot. Jackie would be cleared to the left of the line of fire from this position, because of this slight curve to the s/w. This would have taken her out of the line of fire and the angle of the shot and elevation of the shooter would have gone over the windshield and over or perhaps between the two side supports or below the upper support, missing Jackie and hitting the president.

FWIW, as long as we are all speculating. Anyone care to do the geometry... can't spell it... let alone do it....

Edited by William Plumlee
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Sherry Gutierrez's presentation on Bullet Trajectory indicates a shot from the South Knoll area.

Sherry has given this presentation at both Lancer and Dealey Plaza UK Conferences.

The presentation is available on the web, though whenever I try to locate it I am unsuccessful.

When I first heard Sherrys preentation I immediately thought 'This fit with the account of William Plumlee'

I think Sherry is a member of the forum, perhaps someone could request her expertees.

Could someone please provide the link also.

All the best,

John

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Sherry Gutierrez's presentation on Bullet Trajectory indicates a shot from the South Knoll area.

Sherry has given this presentation at both Lancer and Dealey Plaza UK Conferences.

The presentation is available on the web, though whenever I try to locate it I am unsuccessful.

When I first heard Sherrys preentation I immediately thought 'This fit with the account of William Plumlee'

I think Sherry is a member of the forum, perhaps someone could request her expertees.

Could someone please provide the link also.

All the best,

John

http://jfklancerforum.com/sherryg/images/NID2003.mht

John - worth noting is the use of the Zapruder film to determine the direction of blood spatter, etc. IMO - a error. Also, IMO, we're failing to account for the 2 possible shots that came almost simultaneously - possibly on radio signal - from the front and rear. Bobby Hargis and being hit by brain and bone matter. Jean Hill's remark about a round the struck the curb near where she and Mary Moorman were standing. The concrete by the manhole cover. James Tague and the Main St curb shot. The dent in the chrome. etc. And I haven't heard anything personally to ever provide any confidence in a shot from the top of the underpass, the south knoll or the Post Office Annex. But what do I know? :rolleyes:

As for an opinion - it's not a direction that is worth pursuing. Fetzer's MIDP deals with the concept of a shot fired from the top of the underpass, South, through the windshield to Kennedy's throat - not a headshot. As per individuals that trained in SIONICS - not a chance. That wasn't technique - especially if you were concerned about nailing anyone else in the vehicle. We might get some additional input from snipers here - but a 100+ yard shot through the windshield sounds like fantasy to me. When I was in the Plaza once I raised the issue with Groden and sidekick [sorry buddy, I never remember your name]. Groden dismissed it immediately - citing the direction of Kennedy's head at the time of the throat shot, and said it came from the knoll. Sidekick kicked in with his close family relationship with the cop stationed on the south side of the underpass [name forgotten at the moment] - no shot came from the area. No witness atop the underpass ever related anything about a shot from this area. Then we have the witness accounts, the evidence of multiple shots with curb strikes, furrows in the grass, bullets kicking up the grass, etc. Crowd dynamics. Smoke on the knoll. Where witnesses claimed that they believed shots came from. I don't remember the Newman family, or anyone else who would have been in a direct line of fire on the north side of the Plaza saying anything about a shot that almost hit them. I'd say it's a wild goose chase personally - and since there were 3 men at the pick-up truck - perhaps Mr Plumlee could add a bit to his account - not saying he wasn't there, but perhaps he is holding back.

Anyway - no expert here. It's a nice presentation. Perhaps Sherry could enquire as to what folks who claim to have seen the 'real' film say they saw. From what I have gathered, it's gory. It's not what we see today in the 'extant' version of the $16M film the taxpayers paid for -- Vince Palamara even has a reference to 'the gruesome version' of the Zapruder film. Sure. I remember seeing that one. :P

Confessions of An Ex-Secret Service Agent

We'd also watch films of real-life assassinations. Naturally, the featured attraction was the home movie Abraham Zapruder shot in Dallas on November 22, 1963. They showed you the gruesome version that the public usually didn't see, where parts of President Kennedy's brain sprayed all over Jackie.

Seems more likely the result of an exploding bullet, which would provide some answer to the metallic trail on the top of the skull in X-Rays, which struck the front right temple, within moments of a round that struck the back of the head - weakening the area. That would fit in with the simultaneous shots heard by many witnesses.

- lee

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Sidekick kicked in with his close family relationship with the cop stationed on the south side of the underpass [name forgotten at the moment] - no shot came from the area.

Lee,

Which cop was this? An officer stationed at the south end of the underpass is news to me.

Ron

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Ron,

Which cop was this? An officer stationed at the south end of the underpass is news to me.

Ron

Would this be Officer Earl Brown?

You can find the WC testimony of Dallas Policeman Earle Brown before the Warren Commission (vol. VI, pp. 231+).

His testimony is rather confusing (or, I should say Mr. Ball's questioning is confusing), but from what I gather, Patrolman Brown was stationed in the trainyards about 100 yards southwest of the Elm and Houston intersection. When the shots were fired, Officer Brown said that 50-75 pigeons rose off the river bottom.

Steve Thomas

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Steve,

Brown and Lomax were stationed on an overpass across Stemmons Expressway “just North of Elm Street.”

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol20_0257a.htm

Brown refers to their location as east of the underpass, so putting the two together, I guess it would be best characterized as northeast of the underpass.

Mr. BALL. How far were you from the point where Elm Street goes under the underpass?

Mr. BROWN. I would say approximately 100 yards.

Mr. BALL. approximately 100 yards in what direction?

Mr. BROWN. That would be - wouldn't be straight east, but It would be to easterly, kind of off at an angle - I would say about from us about a 20 degree angle to the right.

There is then a reference to southwest that makes no sense:

Mr. BALL. You would be east or west?

Mr. BROWN. We would be to the southwest of that.

There was also this Abbott and Costello exchange:

Mr. BALL. That was you and Mr. Lomax?

Mr. BROWN. That's right.

Mr. BALL. Was there an E. V. Brown?

Mr. BALL. That's me.

Mr. BALL. That's you, and was there also a Joe Murphy?

Mr. BROWN. Joe Murphy is a three-wheeler.

Mr. BALL. Yes; where was he?

Mr. BROWN. I don't know, sir; he was, I believe he was on his three-wheeler.

Ron

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I think, confusing to say the least when you consider the following:

(1) "... was stationed in the trainyards about 100 yards southwest of the Elm and Houston intersection. ..".

( this would be hard to prove. Houston and Elm is the southeast cornor of the TSBD. The train yards are west of this intersection and west (50 yds) of the TSBD parking lot.., approx two hundred yards or so and to the north, about 50-100yards or so, behind the west southwest side of the TSBD. the Triple Underpass is south of the train yard's tower aprox 150 yards. The alledged shooter would have been another hundred yards (approx) at the far south end of the underpass or in the south knoll parking lot approx 20 yards east of the south end of the underpass.

(2) "... Officer Brown said that 50-75 pigeons rose off the river bottom. ...".

(This also would be hard to prove. The Trenity River bottoms are located about a half mile to a mile west of the Tripple underpass.. I think 50 to 75 pigeons from that distance would be hard to see.

I was under the impression that it was said this officer was located at the S/E side of the underpass.., being south of the trainyards tower and S/W of the TSBD. Pictures at the time do not show anyone standing there. Most all the people, who were photograph were standing at the center to north end of the overpass above the motorcade when the limo turned from Houston onto Elm. (the cornor of the TSBD) After the shots all the personal standing at that location went over to the northwest side of the underpass as the Limo went under and watched the limo speed toward the freeway.

Website referenced map: City of Dallas Interactive Maps

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Sherry Gutierrez's presentation on Bullet Trajectory indicates a shot from the South Knoll area.

Sherry has given this presentation at both Lancer and Dealey Plaza UK Conferences.

The presentation is available on the web, though whenever I try to locate it I am unsuccessful.

When I first heard Sherrys preentation I immediately thought 'This fit with the account of William Plumlee'

I think Sherry is a member of the forum, perhaps someone could request her expertees.

Could someone please provide the link also.

All the best,

John

I have read Miss Gutierrez's piece on Trajectory and blood spatter and it is quite compelling, I recommend it highly!

http://www.jfklancerforum.com/sherryg/

Scott

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