A "few" Facts

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Then, of course, we have the "perpendicular to" strike in which the bullet strikes at an exact 90-degrees perpendicular to the plane of the target.

And, although these drawings would make one believe that the bullet leaves a nice round hole in the skin, this is not the case when striking soft flesh/tissue.

As example, provided is a typical 6.5mm entrance wound in which it can be seen that there is little actual skin removed.

The elasticity of the skin allows it to give, and then tear radially as the bullet enters, thus allowing very little of the skin surface to be actually removed by the bullet.

Purvy,

I like how your illustration in post #14 shows how a bullet entering the body will push what it penetrates INWARD, thus what it does leaving the body will push that surface OUTWARD. It certainly addresses the sprung opened bones on the back of JFK's head quite nicely.

Thanks!

Bill Miller

Bill!

In a previous posting as relates the the EOP entry, it was fully explained as to how this, the third/last/final shot completed the fracturing and fragmentation of the bone in the occipital region of the skull.

As of now, I do not have the time to draw you a picture in order that you may understand it.

Which by the way would be a waist of time as Dr. Boswell long ago made the drawing while he was standing over the body/head of JFK, and the autopsy X-rays also demonstrate these radiating fractures from the ENTRY wound at the EOP.

Therefore, there exists little likelihood that you will come to understand this relatively simple fact.

I am sorry that you completely fail to understand bullet penetration through the skin, as well as bullet penetration through the skull and the internal bevelling which occurs, and of which the autopsy surgeons fully found and fully recognized in relationship to the EOP ENTRY wound.

But since you also appear at a loss to explain the position in which JFK's head had to be for a bullet to strike at the edge of the hairline in the scalp and thus "tunnel" through the soft flesh of the neck to impact in the vicinity of the EOP of the skull, leaving a 15mm elongated entrance wound through the skull bone, then it is also quite likely that you understand absolutely nothing in regards to the bullet wounds incurred by JFK.

Now! Exactly how many times was it that you had discussions with Dr. Humes? Dr. Boswell? Dr. Finck?

On what they observed during the course of their autopsy?

You seem to be of the opinion that the ONLY explanation for the fracturing of the bones at the rear/occipital region of the skull of JFK is due to some frontal shot, despite the facts related to the autopsy which clearly identified the bullet hole in this vicinity as a wound of ENTRANCE in the rear of the skull, with internal beveling of the inner table of the skull due to the ENTRANCE/pasage of the bullet from rear to front.

I, as well as anyone else who has taken the time to review the medical information, am fully aware that the bones at he back of the skull of JFK in the EOP region were fully fractured, and opened up to the extent that the Parkland Doctors viewed occipital damage.

Actually, one does not even have to rely on the Parkland Hospital Doctors for this information as it is/was/and is still easily derived from the testimony of SS Agent Clint Hill.

________________________________________________________________________________

_________

Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car.

________________________________________________________________________________

_________

Now! Z-312/313 most certainly does not demonstrate for us that the "right rear portion of the head is missing". In fact, it is easily recognizable that this portion is still intact after the SECOND SHOT at Z-312/313 which removed the upper/top section of skull from the head of JFK, and blew it over to the extent that it can thereafter be observed hanging on the right side of his face/head.

Which, by the way, severely weakened the structural integrity of the remaining portion of the skull to the extent that when the THIRD/LAST/FINAL shot struck JFK in the back of the skull in the vicinity of the EOP, that this acute angle/penetration of the bullet through the remaining portion of the skull created a 15mm length wound of entry and completed the fracturing of the EOP area of the skull, sending radiating fractures from the point of entry into various directions.

Which radiating fractures, I might add, immediately terminated in the area above the entry point where that portion of the skull as observed after the Z-312/313 head shot had removed the upper portion of the skull.

Kind of hard for a piece of bone to have a radiating fracture continue to run through it, when in fact the piece of bone is laying over to the right hand side of JFK's head.

And, by the way, when the "skull cap" portion of the skull which was blown over onto the right side of JFK's head by the SECOND SHOT/Z312/313 headshot, is placed back onto the head of JFK, then all that the Parkland Doctors would observe would be the damage to the rear/EOP vicinity of the skull of JFK.

So Bill!

You really do need to stop looking at pictures and do a little independent research into the FACTUAL aspects of the wounds incurred by JFK. As opposed to basing your entire scenario on merely the fact that there was damage; fracturing; and fragmenting of the bones to the rear of the head of JFK in the EOP/Occipital Region of the skull.

Which, I do believe the autopsy surgeons fully documented along with the wound of ENTRY which created these radiating fractures.

And, in the event you can not find the "pictures"/drawings, as made by Dr. Boswell during the course of the autopsy, which clearly demonstrate this, and then understand the drawings, then let me know and perhaps I may take the time to explain them to you as well.

The "operative" words are:

ragged, slanting, 6mm X 15mm (complete with arrow)

missing

fractures

radiating

entry

bevelling

skull

interior table

[John Dolva]

Tom, I've modified my question to remove an apparent ambiguity

Tom, one question that has been nagging at me that I hope you could cover at some point is (see diagram) if the bullet is travelling directly from the viewer here but happens to have an attack something like this, for some reason, at the moment of impact. In striking a perpendicular surface (perpendicular to the trajectory) through cloth , skin etc. What would the wound look like?

So, I guess I'm talking about :

'a perpendicular strike with the bullet itself not being perpendicular.'

Edited June 23, 2006 by John Dolva

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Tom, I've modified my question to remove an apparent ambiguity

Tom, one question that has been nagging at me that I hope you could cover at some point is (see diagram) if the bullet is travelling directly from the viewer here but happens to have an attack something like this, for some reason, at the moment of impact. In striking a perpendicular surface (perpendicular to the trajectory) through cloth , skin etc. What would the wound look like?

So, I guess I'm talking about :

'a perpendicular strike with the bullet itself not being perpendicular.'

Just as in the non-perpendicular strikes, the wound would have to be elongaged to the side of the decreased angle as the cross-sectional area through which the bullet must pass is the same.

However, due to the fact that a bullet which would be travelling perpendicular to the target would be in the attitude which you have described would mean that the bullet has lost some stability in rotational balance, and therefore has begun to "wobble".

This is in fact what the WC/Specter attempted to pass off as the reason for the somewhat horizontally elongated wound in the back of JBC

The hypothesis put forward by Specter was that the bullet was beginning to lose stability after having passed through the neck of JFK, and thus was beginning to "wobble", therefore striking in an attitude as you have described.

Thus resulting in the elongated nature of JBC's back/shoulder entry.

If the bullet were absolutely wobbling in flight, it could be difficult to identify any specific abrasion area, due to the fact that the decreased angle side would be changing in relationship to it's position of the wound with the rotational speed of the bullet.

Edited June 23, 2006 by Thomas H. Purvis

[John Dolva]

as I understand it::

YAW is a stable predictable spiraling motion depending on such things as centre of gravity and bullet shape. At different times of the bullets flight there is much more yaw. Right as the bullet leaves the barrel ther is a combined unstable movement and a wide yaw that settles shortly. later, as the bullet loses forward speed and rotational speed (spin), the yaw increases, also tumble wobble etc come in now.(Please correct any misunderstandings here). It would be rare for this particular bullet to ever have a true straight ahead?

This attack of the bullet may be a part of a smooth yaw. Therefore the hole punched out could be more defined than suggested?

Edited June 23, 2006 by John Dolva

[Thomas H. Purvis]

as I understand it::

YAW is a stable predictable spiraling motion depending on such things as centre of gravity and bullet shape. At different times of the bullets flight there is much more yaw. Right as the bullet leaves the barrel ther is a combined unstable movement and a wide yaw that settles shortly. later, as the bullet loses forward speed and rotational speed (spin), the yaw increases, also tumble wobble etc come in now.(Please correct any misunderstandings here). It would be rare for this particular bullet to ever have a true straight ahead?

This attack of the bullet may be a part of a smooth yaw. Therefore the hole punched out could be more defined than suggested?

As you have stated, all bullets have some yaw to a limited degree.

These old "round nosed" bullets had considerably more yaw than most of our current designs which are considerably less susceptible do to better aerodynamic design.

And, although the bullet would be attempting to travel at a given angle of yaw, the rotational spin keeps this in check to the extent possible, combined with the air flow over the mass of the bullet.

This is of course all a part of bullet design coupled with the required velocity and the required spiral rotation for the particularly designed round.

Nevertheless, a miniscule "flight angle" which is slightly off center is inherent with these rounds, which is so minimal as to be virtually undetectable except with the most sophisticated of photographic equipment.

As to the hole punch, about the only time that the skin may be completely removed in that area directly in the striking point is when something hard, such as skull bone, etc; is located directly under the surface of the impact point.

In this regards, the bullet can utilize the stability/resistance of the underlying bone to punch out and remove an area of skin.

In soft flesh tissue, very little of the skin is actually removed as it has sufficient elasticity to expand/stretch and then tear radially, thus allowing the bullet to pass through without having to punch out the skin.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Dr. GREGORY - The possibility exists, but I would discount it for these reasons--ordinarily, a missile in flight---I'll qualify that---a high velocity missile in flight does not tend to carry organic material into the wound which it creates.

I believe if you will inspect the record which was prepared by Dr. Shaw, there is no indication that any clothing or other organic material was found in the chest wound.

An irregular missile can carry debris into a wound and such debris was carried into the wound of the wrist. I would have expected that an undistorted high velocity missile striking the wrist would not have carried material into it.

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The back/shoulder wound of JBC had no fabric/organic materials from his coat or shirt carried into the wound.

The wrist wound of JBC had considerable fabric/organic materials carried into the wound.

It is unknown as to whether the thigh wound of JBC had any organic materials carried into the wound by the entering bullet, however, there is no indication that such a condition existed.

RED FLAG TIME

The back/lower neck wound of JFK had considerably organic materials from his coat and shirt carried into the wound by the entering bullet.

Although this little known item is not documented at any location within the autopsy information, Dr. Boswell gave this information in a later interview.

Now, perhaps one should give consideration as to the HOW? & WHY? that a bullet entering the back of JFK, reportedly at it's maximum velocity, carried organic materials from the coat and shirt into the wound of entry, in contradiction to what happens to be a virtual forensic and ballistic fact.

Yet, this same bullet, while supposedly "yawing" due to velocity loss, struck JBC in the back/shoulder, and yet carried no organic materials from the coat and shirt of JBC into the wound of entry into the back.

[John Dolva]

I'd just like to belabour this point a bit more.The basic question of "what would a wound look like if...". This has some bearing on trajectory.

Not only does the bullet yaw etc, it also drifts, like a spinning football, and the tip has a lift like a plane wing. The attack of the bullet, and the direction the attack comes from, is not exactly a straight line from the tip of the barrel.

Can it be determined what the cone of possibilities for the trajectory causing wound actually is, not based on the rare moment of a directly straight ahead bullet strike but rather the very real range of possibilities and seeing if they are limited to the sixth floor window?

Edited June 24, 2006 by John Dolva

[Steven Tomlinson]

Deleted.

Edited July 3, 2006 by Steven Tomlinson

[Thomas H. Purvis]

I'd just like to belabour this point a bit more.The basic question of "what would a wound look like if...". This has some bearing on trajectory.

Not only does the bullet yaw etc, it also drifts, like a spinning football, and the tip has a lift like a plane wing. The attack of the bullet, and the direction the attack comes from, is not exactly a straight line from the tip of the barrel.

Can it be determined what the cone of possibilities for the trajectory causing wound actually is, not based on the rare moment of a directly straight ahead bullet strike but rather the very real range of possibilities and seeing if they are limited to the sixth floor window?

NOPE!

Too many CSI Shows.

One could, just as did Dr. Humes/Dr. Boswell, enter a probe into the actual wound and then determine an approximate angle and direction from which the shot was fired..

However, this merely demonstrates that the back/upper neck wound of JFK came from behind and above.

And in that regards, it too has created considerable disagreement among researchers.

The angle determined being from 45-degrees to 60-degrees downward, which correlates only to the sky, airplanes, and helicopters.

And of which by the way constitutes another of the RED FLAG items of which one should fully evaluate.

There would be absolutely no way of knowing "exact" unless the same exact position of the plane of the body was known.

And, especially since the skin is elastic, it is by far too prone to error, other than possible the determination of the abrasion collar in determination of angle of entry/attack at the time of impact.

And as you have stated, in addition to the slightly "nose upwards" attitude, the bullet has a miniscule "drift", which for the Carcano is to the right. However, it too is so minute that affect on wound of entry is all but impossible.

The "tail wag" of the Carcano type bullet is a given fact, yet it too is far too small to be of a defininitive measure in wound evaluation, or else the bullet would not even hold stable in flight.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

RED FLAG TIME

The back/lower neck wound of JFK had considerably organic materials from his coat and shirt carried into the wound by the entering bullet.

Although this little known item is not documented at any location within the autopsy information, Dr. Boswell gave this information in a later interview.

Now, perhaps one should give consideration as to the HOW? & WHY? that a bullet entering the back of JFK, reportedly at it's maximum velocity, carried organic materials from the coat and shirt into the wound of entry, in contradiction to what happens to be a virtual forensic and ballistic fact.

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Once one verifies the fact that a medium to high velocity bullet does not normally carry fabric into the wound of entry, then one should most probably take a look at some of the clothing which lost the fabric into the back wound of JFK.

Again, anyone even vaguely familiar with gunshot (rifle) wounds of entry, would instantly recognize that the bullet holes in the clothing worn by JFK are absolutely abnormal.

Since the hole in the shirt is much easier to recognize and compare, it is provided.

And, let it be an established fact that "normal" bullets do not remove a clearly distinguishable oval area of the fabric when entering/passing through the cloth.

Not unlike the skin, the fabric normally tends to give and stretch, and the rotation of the bullet nose manages to bore through the fabric with only minimal damage.

The photo with the mm scale is what a normal 6.5mm Carcano entry through the back of a shirt appears like.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

RED FLAG TIME

The back/lower neck wound of JFK had considerably organic materials from his coat and shirt carried into the wound by the entering bullet.

Although this little known item is not documented at any location within the autopsy information, Dr. Boswell gave this information in a later interview.

Now, perhaps one should give consideration as to the HOW? & WHY? that a bullet entering the back of JFK, reportedly at it's maximum velocity, carried organic materials from the coat and shirt into the wound of entry, in contradiction to what happens to be a virtual forensic and ballistic fact.

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Once one verifies the fact that a medium to high velocity bullet does not normally carry fabric into the wound of entry, then one should most probably take a look at some of the clothing which lost the fabric into the back wound of JFK.

Again, anyone even vaguely familiar with gunshot (rifle) wounds of entry, would instantly recognize that the bullet holes in the clothing worn by JFK are absolutely abnormal.

Since the hole in the shirt is much easier to recognize and compare, it is provided.

And, let it be an established fact that "normal" bullets do not remove a clearly distinguishable oval area of the fabric when entering/passing through the cloth.

Not unlike the skin, the fabric normally tends to give and stretch, and the rotation of the bullet nose manages to bore through the fabric with only minimal damage.

The photo with the mm scale is what a normal 6.5mm Carcano entry through the back of a shirt appears like.

http://w3.agsfoundation.com/safety/gloss_wxyz.html

wadcutter bullet

A cylindrical bullet having a sharp shouldered nose intended to cut target paper cleanly to facilitate easy and accurate scoring.

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http://www.mcsm.org/gloss.html

Wadcutter (WC):

A flat-ended, nearly cylindrical bullet designed for cutting full-caliber holes in targets. Especially favored in light, target loads.

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http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_..._49/ai_97170894

Design Origin

The first thing you notice about a loaded .38 Special wadcutter round, is that it's seated flush with the case mouth. The main objective of the wadcutter design is to cut a nice clean hole in a paper target. This makes scoring ever so much easier

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http://www.remington.com/products/ammuniti...n/remington.asp

Wadcutter Match

For precise target shooting and easier scoring, our Targetmaster™ wadcutter delivers great accuracy and precision paper-cutting performance

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The "flat" base to a normal WCC 6.5mm Carcano round is provided!

[Mark Knight]

I don't quite see where you're going with this, Tom.

Are you hinting that one (or more) of the wounds to either JFK or JBC were made with a .38 with wadcutters? Or are you merely trying point out some similarities of the performance of the 6.5mm Carcano round to a .38 wadcutter?

As I said, I don't quite see where you're headed with this.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

I don't quite see where you're going with this, Tom.

Are you hinting that one (or more) of the wounds to either JFK or JBC were made with a .38 with wadcutters? Or are you merely trying point out some similarities of the performance of the 6.5mm Carcano round to a .38 wadcutter?

As I said, I don't quite see where you're headed with this.

Standard WCC 6.5mm Carcano Bullet.

Normal 6.5mm Carcano entrance through the fabric of a shirt.

Normal 6.5mm Carcano bullet entrance through soft flesh tissue.

This should be relatively easy to follow!

[Thomas H. Purvis]

A WCC 6.5mm Carcano bullet converted into a "wadcutter" bullet.

The entrance wound in soft tissue created by this wadcutter bullet.

The "flat" base of a normal 6.5mm Carcano Bullet--much like the "flat" nose of a wadcutter round.

P.S. I would include the photo's of the holes in the coat and shirt entry's of the wadcutter round if I could find then.

Unfortunately, too many boxes of this stuff.

Nevertheless, one can pretty well figure it out!

Needless to say, the wadcutter round "punches" the fabric out, just as it does paper targets in target shooting.

Exactly what it was designed for.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

CE399

Base of CE399 as originally received by the National Archives

Base of normal WCC 6.5mm Carcano bullet w/mm scale

Shirt worn by JFK with "punched out" bullet entrance hole.

Back wound of JFK with "punched out" entrance wound.

Now for a few simple facts!

1. The bullet entrance wound in the back of JFK measured 4mm X 7mm.

1(a). The slightly deformed base of CE399 measures 4mm X 7mm.

2. Dr. Boswell has described the entrance wound in the back of JFK as being "atypical". Additionally, the autopsy report describes the relatively "clean cut" edges to the wound.

2(a). A normal entrance wound into soft flesh, as made by a 6.5mm Carcano bullet striking in a nose first attitude, does not make an entrance wound with relatively clean cut edges.

3. Dr. Boswell, in later discussions with newsmen (which I verified with Dr. Boswell) stated that there was considerable fabric carried into the wound of entry for the back wound.

3(a). A normal wound of entry by a 6.5mm Carcano bullet does not carry fabric into the wound.

This is due to the rounded nose of the projectile basically "boring" through and pushing the fabric out of it's way as it makes it's entry.

4. The "wadcutter/flat-nosed" bullet was designed primarily for target practice. The flat nose of this bullet allows it to literally "punch" out a hole in the paper target which for all practical purposes matches exactly in dimension the size of the bullet.

This removal of paper/creation of a "paper punch" type hole, makes it easier for the shooter to see where he actually struck the target, as a normal round does not punch out the paper and merely creates small radial tears as it penetrates through the paper target.

The "wadcutter" got it's name from a wasp which often cuts perfectly round holes in leaves, etc; during he gathering of materials with which to construct a wasp nest.

4(a). The "wadcutter"/punch type removal of fabric in the shirt worn by JFK is fully indicative of his having struck by a "Flat"-ended/nosed projectile, which would have punched out the fabric and thereafter carried this fabric into the wound of entry into the back.

As most serious researchers are fully aware, the initial results of the autopsy report were that the bullet which entered the back of JFK, did so for only a short distance, lodging above the apex of the lung.

There was NO exit lane for this bullet found.

Thereafter, one merely has to look at what variables could/would cause a 2,000+ fps bullet to lose velocity to the extent that it merely penetrated a short distance into the back of JFK, as well as create a loss of stability in which it caused the bullet to strike in a "base-first" attitude.