Mark Knight Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Test it out; go out and buy a rump roast, or some other thick slab of meat [or use several, if that's what it takes to replicate what you think happened], and fire a bullet into it...then get back to me on what you find. That takes "theoretical" into the real world. Of course, for the test to be accurate, you'll have to use copper-jacketed rounds from a 6.5mm Mannlicher-Carcano, from a distance of under 100 yards. I'll wait...because I don't think, even with the rifle and the ammunition specified, you can replicate CE399 in that manner. Let me know how that comes out...because UNTIL and UNLESS you can prove it's possible, then it's just another "wild" theory floating around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Rago Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 (edited) You can do the experiment if you want. I will wait for your results. But you need to use a human cadaver! I have faith in what the evidence is telling me regarding the bullet passing through the presidents body. I do not think it is that wild at all. All I am doing is following the evidence. This is where the evidence leads. BTW, this is from HSCA Vol7 M53c_ballistics http://www.history-m..._Ballistics.pdf Remember, I am not saying the bullet struck any bone structures. I am just saying it passed through JFK's body. The HSCA was trying to reconcile the squeezing of the bullet and no lateral deformation even though their theory( not mine) was that bullet struck bone structures in Connally after it exited JFK. Edited August 10, 2012 by Mike Rago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Knight Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 "JFK assassination researcher Tom Purvis has tested the effects of a 6.5mm bullet going through a 1 inch live oak tree branch and he reports a much reduced velocity with minimum damage to the bullet." Mike, I have no reason to try to disprove your theory; I would think the onus would be on you to PROVE your theory. That's generally how it's done in the scientific community: once you have a theory, then it's up to YOU to prove it's possible. You can THINK it happened, BELIEVE it happened, and WISH it happened until the cows come home...but until you can PROVE that's what happened, your theory is just as silly as everyone else's theory. I don't NEED to prove what DIDN'T happen; you might as well ask me to prove Martians DIDN'T shoot JFK, because I don't believe THAT, either. If you're going to stand by a theory, you should be ready to prove it. If you can't--or won't prove it, why should your theory be believed? Hell, even the WC went through the motions of attempting to prove the SBT. So put up or shut up. If you're so convinced CE399 was created the way you think it was, prove that it's even possible. just BELIEVING it's possible doesn't make it so. Purvis, in the example above, went out and purchased a Mannlicher-Carcano in 6.5mm and fired it through a 1" live oak branch, just to prove that his theory was possible. WORDS aren't going to change minds, Mike; that's what EVIDENCE is for. So go create the EVIDENCE that PROVES your theory--or have someone else do it; I really don't care WHO does it--or back off and admit that you have NO proof, other than your "faith" and "belief" that it happened that way. Then take "faith" and "belief" before a judge and jury and see how far that gets you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Rago Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 (edited) I would like to see the bullet Tom fired through a 1 inch oak tree. Do you have a picture of it? Again, the 800lb gorilla is the two wounds, no exits and no bullets. You must realize that there is evidence for this. Both the WC and HSCA sanctioned the SBT and that pristine bullet. They were only half right. The bullet did pass through JFK but it did not strike Connally. And quite frankly, that is exactly what the evidence indicates. A bullet that passed through the president but did not hit Connally. A bullet that can pass through a 1" oak tree can pass through a body. Tom's experiment helps to prove the point. It definitely is not contradictory. Here is some evidence. Much better than any experiment I would do. Edited August 10, 2012 by Mike Rago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Knight Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 In other words, you have faith in your theory...but not enough faith to try to replicate it. I think that's all you need to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Rago Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 (edited) No Mark that is not what I am saying. I am saying this is much better evidence than I would get doing an experiment. The evidence already exists. Edited August 10, 2012 by Mike Rago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Rago Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 (edited) I am not going to buy an MC and do an experiment. (Which would be a very elaborate experiment if done properly) It can be proved , beyond a reasonable doubt, to a jury, that a bullet did pass through the body of JFK. Once the jury accepts that a bullet did pass through the presidents body and once they are shown that the almost pristine bullet, with longitudinal deformation only, was found at the crime scene, I will ask them(the jury) to make the determination that is the bullet that did pass through the president. The jury gets to use their common sense and can be the fact finder on this issue. If I do not provide enough information for them to make that finding of fact then they will not make it. I would place my faith in the jury and their common sense. This theory that I propose has a lot of common sense and it fits the evidence well. No theory is completely bulletproof. Mark could fire off a 1000 rounds and take them into court and tell the jury that not a single bullet shows that deformation. But all I have to do is ask what were you firing at? If he says roast beef he is not going to win on that issue. The deformation is too small and the logic of the theory is too sound. As I said , there is too much common sense in the theory. The truth has a certain ring to it and this theory has that sound to me. Edited August 10, 2012 by Mike Rago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 (edited) Yes, Mike... They shot the same bullet type thru a cadaver's wrist... the results in the WCR... and the 800lb Gorilla is not two wounds not bullets... it what did the SS do with the bullets they clima were in their possession the other 800lb Gorilla is WHERE did CE399 come from? Do you understand that if you shoot those bullets thru water... or cotton fiber, you get the same slight deformation... Look at the top of CE399... THAT was supposed to have shattered ribs and wrist AFTER passing thru JFK (Which Drs have already told you was impossible) and still have enough power to lodge in JC's leg... Plus, the men who handled what became CE399, ALL COULD NOT, WOULD NOT AUTHENTICATE THAT BULLET AS THE ONE THEY HANDLED... So how can CE399 be the SBT whan none of those who had it can identify it? One last question.... Here is what happen to a POINTED FMJ bullet at different speeds... the MC in evidence does not fire much past 2100fps.... So we would EXPECT the bullet to remain somewhat intact.... As you know... the headshot produced MANY very small particles of metal... and a sort of fog at the front top of the brain... ASK anyone familiar with FMJ and why they were designed... to NOT BREAK UP AT HIGH SPEEDS when traveling thru a body... a more human bullet since the wound was clean and there would be less infection and death for the injured... So why didn't the headshot just go thru and thru, like the SBT, and come out pristine - these were two bullets, from the same lot, from the same rifle... ACTING as if they were not.... Any ideas? Edited August 10, 2012 by David Josephs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Rago Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 (edited) I hate it when people misstate what I say. That is one reason I have you on ignore. But unfortunately ignore does not work when I am not logged in. You are saying CE399 hit Connally and shattered his wrist. I am not saying that The bullet that shattered Connally's wriist and ribs was most likely found in fragments on the floor of the limo. I am saying CE399 ended up in Connally's clothes maybe his hat and ultimately on the stretcher. Edited August 10, 2012 by Mike Rago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 I hate it when people misstate what I say. That is one reason I have you on ignore. But unfortunately ignore does not work when I am not logged in. You are saying CE399 hit Connally and shattered his wrist. I am not saying that The bullet that shattered Connally's wriist and ribs was most likely found in fragments on the floor of the limo. I am saying CE399 ended up in Connally's clothes maybe his hat and ultimately on the stretcher. Do whatever gives you the most jollies Mike... I could give care less.... Yet you seem unable to prove your points in any manner on any thread and my (and other) posts continue to show that... so instead of IGNORE... which you obviously can't seem to do either How about PROVING SOMETHING within your theory? and then, Google the name Audrey Bell and read about yet another bullet... or what Tomlinson actually said about the shape of the bullet he held... anything is better than you throwing it against the wasll and hoping it sticks No, I am saying CE399 was NEVER in Dallas.... and these people prove it... when everyone up to the agent who got the bullet from Chief Rowley and supposedly gave it to Frasier cannot ID the bullet, yet Todd confirms that what Rowley gave him was what he gave Frasier... Who do you supposed gave CE399 to either Rowley, Todd, or Frasier... cause it did NOT come from Dallas... but this one did: Any idea where this second bullet is? Taking some advise from the others here would serve you well Mike... doing a little reserach BEFORE you commit to indefensible positions might help... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Rago Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 (edited) That bullet was in Dallas. from CE2011 (24H412) about Wright and Tomlinson Tomlinson Odum Wright Odum "On June 12, 1964, O.P. Wright, Personnel Officer, Parkland Hospital, Dallas, Texas, advised Special Agent Bardwell D. Odum that Exhibit C1, a rifle slug, shown to him at the time of the interview, looks like the slug found at Parkland Hospital on November 22, 1963, which he gave to Richard Johnsen, Special Agent of the Secret Service. He stated he was not present at the time the bullet was found, but on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, as he entered the Emergency Unit on the ground floor of the hospital, Mr. Tomlinson, an employee, called to him and pointed out a bullet, which was on a hospital carriage at that location. He estimated the time as being within an hour of the time President Kennedy and Governor Connally were brought to the hospital. He advised he could not postiviely identify C1 as being the same bullet which was found on November 22, 1963." Edited August 11, 2012 by Mike Rago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 (edited) Nice start Mike.... Tomlinson cannot positively ID Wright? Nope SA Johnson? Nope Cheif Rowley? Nope again... Only Todd says thatwhat Rowley gave him was what he gave Frasier and was CE399... No one in Dallas can confirm it as the bullet found.... only becomes CE399, the MAGIC BULLET, in DC why is that Mike? Edited August 11, 2012 by David Josephs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Rago Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 (edited) No one can positively ID a bullet like that unless they put their marks on it. The FBI agents are not going to positively ID anything that they did not put their marks on. The fact they cannot positively ID it does not mean it is not the same bullet. If you thought this bullet hit Connally and shattered his ribs and wrist it was easy to think that this must not be the correct bullet because that bullet contradicts your common sense. But in fact you should have been thinking if that is the correct bullet it could not have hit Connally. If "they" , whoever "they" were wanted to swap for a new bullet , one which was friendlier to their SBT theory you think they would swap out a bullet that was severely deformed so it looked like a bullet that had hit bone structures. If you say that is the bullet they substituted , in order to prove their SBT case, I am going to say , why that bullet? That bullet does not look at all like it hit a bone structure. That bullet does not help their case at all. In fact it virtually proves that there were two shots fired almost simultaneously. Once again, common sense says that CE399 is the bullet. Edited August 11, 2012 by Mike Rago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Knight Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Read this, and then get back to us: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=18927&pid=258095&st=0entry258095 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Rago Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 (edited) I read nothing in that post which conflicts with the theory that CE399 passed through the president but did not pass through Connally. Summary of Results http://karws.gso.uri...Summary_p1.html Complete http://karws.gso.uri...ARA_report.html Mr. Orr's theory. "Mr. Orr believes that the second gunman assassinated the President with a single shot to the President's head, fired after Oswald's second shot. He believes that the ammunition used was very different from Oswald's – a soft-nose or hollow-point bullet very different from the military style full-metal-jacket bullets which have been attributed to Oswald. He believes that the trajectory and impact of this "third shot" provesconclusively that neither Oswald's ammunition nor Oswald's location could have been the source of that fatal shot. Mr. Orr cites the fragment pattern documented by x-rays, in general, and the presence of fragments (visible inx-rays), outside the skull next to the entry would, or a type associated withsoft-nose ammunition." To honest there are parts of Mr. Orr's theory that I like. He believes the evidence indicates two different types of ammunition were used. JFK was killed at the Grassy Knoll , not further up Elm Street. I believe JFK was struck by two , nearly simultaneous , shots to the head beginning at Zapruder frame 313. I believe that one of these two shots came from an assassin, using a handgun, on the Grassy Knoll. An assassin using a handgun would not be firing the same ammunition that Oswald(?) was firing and could easily be firing "soft nose ammunition". I now also believe that two nearly simultaneous shots were fired at the time of the supposed single bullet theory. One shot passed through the presidents neck and ended up in Connally's lap and a second shot, fired almost simultaneously, missed the president completely and struck Connally causing the damage to his wrist, ribs and thigh. This ammunition was full metal jacket. By using simultaneous shots the conspirators increase their probability of success greatly. Edited August 11, 2012 by Mike Rago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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