William Kelly Posted August 13, 2006 Share Posted August 13, 2006 (edited) FOREKNOWLEDGE AND JFK ASSASSINATION Sun Tzu said: “Now the reason the enlightened Prince and the wise general conquer the enemy whenever they move and their achievements surpass those of ordinary men is foreknowledge.” ”What is called foreknowledge cannot be elicited from spirits nor from gods. Nor by analogy with past events, nor from calculations. It must be obtained from men who know the enemy situation.” – The Art of War – Chapter XII – Employment of Secret Agents. One of the hallmarks and “fingerprints of intelligence” that makes the assassination of President Kennedy a covert intelligence operation is the foreknowledge certain people had of the event, and expressing it to others before it occurred. - Bray – See: Bray v. Bendix trial transcripts re: JEFCOTT. - Cambridge, England – Telephone call. See: Bowen, Howard. - Cheramie, Rose – Jack Ruby associate. See: Louisiana State Police (HSCA) - Cole, Elizabeth - North New Jersey women who overheard Cubans talking about assassination. - Dinkin, Eugene B. – American soldier in Germany, claims to have picked up on the assassination plot from Army Security Agency monitor of OAS, the Algerian French Generals, went AOL and tried to inform American ambassador. See : Russell, Dick, TMWKTM. - Ecchevara, Homer - Anti-Castro Cuban predicated threat "when we get rid of Kennedy." - Erdinger, Anton - Rudolf Steiger reported that Anton Erdinger said, "If Oswald gets a hold of him he (JFK) is finished," sometime around the June 26, 1963 speech in Berlin, German. WCD 817 - Grace, William – “Shortly before the assassination an executive of the Grace Lines was found unconscious in the street. Taken to a hospital, he mumbled that the president was to be shot. He had an appointment with Army Intelligence agents before he was found.” – (Paris Flamonde, The Kennedy Conspiracy). Also : “An executive of the Grace Lines suffered a concussion after coming into contact with an Army Intelligence agent. While in a delirium he said, ‘The President is in danger!...”. [Also Note LHO wrote to mother/brother he “made reservations on a Grace liner.” ] - Kirknewton - Scottish radio intercept station, where former vet Air Force Security Agency personal later wrote about intercepting information about the assassination before it occurred. See: Wim docs/ Larry Hancock. - Martinez, Jorge Soto – On Nov. 1, Martinez told Lillian Springler at Parrot Jungle in Miami JFK to be "shot between the eyes" by “Lee, been to Russia, Mexico.” JSM lived in apartment above Mike McLaney’s garage, former Cuban Customs, worked at Fountainblu Hotel. - Martino, John – To his wife, on the morning of the assassination (See: Summers, Vanity Fair, SWHT), also Larry Hancock’s “Someone Would Have Talked.” - Milteer, Joseph - (RIP Feb. 28, 1974) Alias Samuel Steven Story. See: William Agusta Somerset – Agent 88 - undercover conversations. In NO, April 63. - Nagel, Richard Case - See: Russell, Dick; The Man Who Knew Too Much. - Odio, Syliva – See: Fonzi, Gaeton (HSCA; The Last Investigation)/ Russell, Dick (TMWKTM). - Oxnard, California telephone call – See: Peter Noyes, Legacy of Doubt. - Paine, Michael – Was talking about political assassination as JFK was being killed. - Philbrick, Herbert – See: Jean Hill. Philbrick expressed foreknowledge of the assassination. - Rivera, Jose, Dr. (Col. USAR) – See: Adele Edisen (ARRB). Rivera not only expressed foreknowledge of JFK’s assassination, but also of his son Patrick’s premature death and that LHO would move into the apartment on Magazine Street, New Orleans before LHO knew. - Underhill, G. Garrett – See: Turner, William, Ramparts. xxx Edited August 15, 2006 by William Kelly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashton Gray Posted August 13, 2006 Share Posted August 13, 2006 I find this a very interesting line of study, Bill, but, bluntly, every reference that doesn't have a date could be a listing from the 1978 Hong Kong telephone book and be every bit as useful for analysis in the Kennedy murder. Ashton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Kelly Posted August 13, 2006 Author Share Posted August 13, 2006 I find this a very interesting line of study, Bill, but, bluntly, every reference that doesn't have a date could be a listing from the 1978 Hong Kong telephone book and be every bit as useful for analysis in the Kennedy murder.Ashton Hi Ashton, I have files on some of these, and others have written chapters in books on them. I will fill in the reference links as I have time. I think there are probably some more that I missed. They must have something in common. BK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashton Gray Posted August 13, 2006 Share Posted August 13, 2006 I have files on some of these, and others have written chapters in books on them. I will fill in the reference links as I have time. I think there are probably some more that I missed. They must have something in common. BK I'm sure they do have something in common somewhere and are quite important. As you and others can supply dates and any more information about each incident I'll pass it along to the people I know who are doing timelines (though I think some are lurking here now from time to time and picking up more info while also collecting data from other sources). I think you have hold of one of the hot strings that when correlated with other information in sequence is going to peel away more layers of the fraud. Ashton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Parker Posted August 13, 2006 Share Posted August 13, 2006 FOREKNOWLEDGE AND JFK ASSASSINATION Sun Tzu said: “Now the reason the enlightened Prince and the wise general conquer the enemy whenever they move and their achievements surpass those of ordinary men is foreknowledge.” ”What is called foreknowledge cannot be elicited from spirits nor from gods. Nor by analogy with past events, nor from calculations. It must be obtained from men who know the enemy situation.” – The Art of War – Chapter XII – Employment of Secret Agents. One of the hallmarks and “fingerprints of intelligence” that makes the assassination of President Kennedy a covert intelligence operation is the foreknowledge certain people had of the event, and expressing it to others before it occurred. - Bray – See: Bray v. Bendix trial transcripts re: JEFCOTT. - Cambridge, England – Telephone call. See: Bowen, Howard. - Cheramie, Rose – Jack Ruby associate. See: Louisiana State Police (HSCA) - Dinkin, Eugene B. – American soldier in Germany, claims to have picked up on the assassination plot from Army Security Agency monitor of OAS, the Algerian French Generals, went AOL and tried to inform American ambassador. See : Russell, Dick, TMWKTM. - Grace, William – “Shortly before the assassination an executive of the Grace Lines was found unconscious in the street. Taken to a hospital, he mumbled that the president was to be shot. He had an appointment with Army Intelligence agents before he was found.” – (Paris Flamonde, The Kennedy Conspiracy). Also : “An executive of the Grace Lines suffered a concussion after coming into contact with an Army Intelligence agent. While in a delirium he said, ‘The President is in danger!...”. [Also NoteLHO wrote to mother/brother he “made reservations on a Grace liner.” ] - Martinez, Jorge Soto – On Nov. 1, Martinez told Lillian Springler at Parrot Jungle in Miami JFK to be "shot between the eyes" by “Lee, been to Russia, Mexico.” JSM lived in apartment above Mike McLaney’s garage, former Cuban Customs, worked at Fountainblu Hotel. - Martino, John – To his wife, on the morning of the assassination (See: Summers, Vanity Fair, SWHT), also Larry Hancock’s “Someone Would Have Talked.” - Milteer, Joseph - (RIP Feb. 28, 1974) Alias Samuel Steven Story. See: William Agusta Somerset – Agent 88 - undercover conversations. In NO, April 63. - Odio, Syliva – See: Fonzi, Gaeton (HSCA; The Last Investigation)/ Russell, Dick (TMWKTM). - Oxnard, California telephone call – See: Peter Noyes, Legacy of Doubt. - Paine, Michael – Was talking about political assassination as JFK was being killed. - Philbrick, Herbert – See: Jean Hill. Philbrick expressed foreknowledge of the assassination. - Rivera, Jose, Dr. (Col. USAR) – See: Adele Edisen (ARRB). Rivera not only expressed foreknowledge of JFK’s assassination, but also of his son Patrick’s premature death and that LHO would move into the apartment on Magazine Street, New Orleans before LHO knew. - Underhill, G. Garrett – See: Turner, William, Ramparts. xxx Bill, great list, and no doubt, more names could be added. Just one nit-pick. Dinkins didn't didn't over-hear anything about a plot from monitoring of OAS, and strictly speaking, he had no foreknowledge at all. He's in a category all on his own, having correctly determined the bones of the plot by noticing psychological sets (patterns aimed at altering mass perceptions) in Stars and Strips and other newspapers. IOW, he developed a theory, using knowledge of psychology and mass media, and that theory was later proved correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Kelly Posted August 14, 2006 Author Share Posted August 14, 2006 I hear you on Eugene Dinken, Greg. That is a very confusing case, but I think he's one of the few who have survived. Also adding, Richard Case Nagel and Anton Erdinger to the list. Bk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antti Hynonen Posted August 14, 2006 Share Posted August 14, 2006 How about Karyn Kupcinet and the phone call....? http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKkupcinet.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Kelly Posted August 14, 2006 Author Share Posted August 14, 2006 How about Karyn Kupcinet and the phone call....? http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKkupcinet.htm It would be a good idea to put all of them into a final list, with dates and references and with some general indication of level of certainty commonly assigned [thinking here of the contentious claim of Lorenz and Fiorini driving to Dallas, for example]. THE ONXNARD, CALIFORNIA PHONE CALL IS OFTEN ATTRIBUTED TO KARYN KUPCIENT. BK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted August 14, 2006 Share Posted August 14, 2006 Bill, One of the hallmarks and “fingerprints of intelligence” that makes the assassination of President Kennedy a covert intelligence operation is the foreknowledge certain people had of the event, and expressing it to others before it occurred. Telephone Call overheard by Elizabeth Cole in New Jersey. FBI Admin Folder N6 multiple pages. http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;docId=10032 Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Hancock Posted August 14, 2006 Share Posted August 14, 2006 I hear you on Eugene Dinken, Greg. That is a very confusing case, but I think he's one of the few who have survived. Also adding, Richard Case Nagel and Anton Erdinger to the list. Bk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Hancock Posted August 14, 2006 Share Posted August 14, 2006 Hi Bill, as you know these pre-assassination leaks are a significant part of my work and I will be going into more detail on some of them plus adding a couple in the second edition. On Dinkin, I'm pretty sure that newspaper thing is a story line that he was forced into after his hospitalization and "recoverery".....another one of those instances of just agreeing to something that sounds nuts to be let back on the street. The hard part about Dinkin is that many folks have written about him but without providing hard core documentation on his military service. If we had some solid source on exactly where he was stationed, what unit and what his job description was we might be able to get somewhere.... My wild guess is that Dinkin may have picked up the same intercept that we are tracking in the Kirknewton situation....but that's pure speculation until we know for sure what his day job was in the fall of 1963. -- Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Forman Posted August 14, 2006 Share Posted August 14, 2006 Gary Wean claimed: Only a matter of hours after Det. Sgt. Ed Patton and I gave RFK documents in Oxnard, California, RFK was dead. These documents were phone records. They revealed a phone call had been made from Federal Commissioner Ben Nordman's and Ventura Superior Court Judge Jerome Berenson's law office over twenty minutes before JFK was assassinated that "he was going to be killed." RFK was also given the names of the persons making the phone call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Forman Posted August 14, 2006 Share Posted August 14, 2006 Bill, One of the hallmarks and “fingerprints of intelligence” that makes the assassination of President Kennedy a covert intelligence operation is the foreknowledge certain people had of the event, and expressing it to others before it occurred. Telephone Call overheard by Elizabeth Cole in New Jersey. FBI Admin Folder N6 multiple pages. http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;docId=10032 Steve Thomas Hi Steve. I sourced all the documents, including those on Senator Raymond Baker. I also located Elisabeth and had many exchanges with her. The bottomline was that the incident in question appeared to have taken place the week of November the 8th. As per Cole, she reported the incident soon afterwards, at her Mother's insistence, to the FBI, by way of a phone call. She provided the specifics, along with her contact info, as well as the contact info for her Parents. It was later researched more thoroughly by the FBI when Baker raised the issue again in the 70s. No other record appears to exist which would validate her original reporting of the incident in November, prior to the assassination. 1. Cole does not recall the name of the student, nor what he looked like. She thinks that his last name might begin with a 'G.' Everything else is as per the documents - save for some additional info I learned from her - for example her name tag showed that she represented France - in which case, the Cuban student could indeed have assumed that she would not understand his conversation, leaving him free to continue speaking, while Cole waited for the payphone to be free so that she could phone home. Furthmore, as per Cole, at that time she was more fluent in Spanish and French than in English - having been educated abroad exclusively. English would have been the most difficult language for her to speak or understand at that time of the three. 2. Baker does not mention how he learned of Cole and her account. On October 29, 1974, Baker does write about his meeting with Mrs. Cole [around the month of August of 1974] to an associate - Phil T. White, Justice Department, Criminal Division. As per the FBI, Baker has been in contact with the DOJ since 1959. The letter begins with the demonstration that Baker has had past dealings with White. Perhaps this is his original source for the information - sheer speculation. Mr. Baker's interest in the case appears to stem from investigations he was prompting RFK to authorize into the shady loans being made by a number of insurance companies to folks like Marcello, Giancana and Rosselli, to name a few. Baker was convinced that his son was killed as a victim of foul play - directly related to his refusal to accept blackmail, and his forcing the investigation to move forward. He was convinced that JFK was assassinated as the result of a conspiracy. 3. Baker states that Mrs. Cole informed him that a Cuban with the same last name as the student [overhead by Elisabeth at Rutgers] was arrested 11/22 in Dallas, but released - no idea how Mrs. Cole could know something that no one else seems to know. Elisabeth had nothing to add here either - her Mother had some bizarre acquaintances but was first and foremost a recluse. Aside from the mystery Garrison photo, there doesn't appear to be any record of a Cuban having been arrested and released that day - at least, nothing I could find. Danny Arce was placed in 'protective custody,' not arrest. Further, he wasn't a student in November. I don't know if he was Cuban. His last name begins with an 'A.' Garrison's photo implies that someone yelling in Spanish at the motorcade was arrested and released, but that's about as far as the story goes - unless someone can fill in the blanks. - lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Forman Posted August 14, 2006 Share Posted August 14, 2006 Hmmm - doesn't seem to allow me to edit. One more point on the Cole account worth mentioning. In his letter to Mr. White of the DOJ on 10/29/74, Baker states that he had been searching for Elisabeth Cole for 'several years' as he believed that her incident with the Cuban student had merit, and was worth following up on. He finally located Mrs. Cole in around the August timeframe and met with her at her residence in NY. It is unclear if Elisabeth was part of that meeting. It is a mystery to me how he could have learned about her to begin with - since there are no records of any kind that I was able to find, prior to Baker's involvement. Elisabeth couldn't help me there either. If this information was not provided to Baker by a contact within the DOJ, I have no clue as to where he might have come by it. - lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Kelly Posted August 15, 2006 Author Share Posted August 15, 2006 How about Karyn Kupcinet and the phone call....? http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKkupcinet.htm It would be a good idea to put all of them into a final list, with dates and references and with some general indication of level of certainty commonly assigned [thinking here of the contentious claim of Lorenz and Fiorini driving to Dallas, for example]. Peter, Does that mean you are volunteering to actually do that? BK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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