Foreknowledge of Assassination

[William Kelly]

"Robert Kennedy felt that unless the women caller heard by the telephone supervisors was clairvoyant, there was sufficient reason to suspect she might have knowledge of the assassination plot. It bothered him to no end."

An interesting story. Did the FBI ever follow-up on this? Though I guess even it they wanted to [sic] they likely couldn't have done much as she was untraceable. What 'suspected' persons involved lived in that area?

Peter,

Some people suspect that the murder of Karen Kupcent had something to do with the Oxnard call.

Karen's father was from the same Chicago neighborhood as Jack Ruby and Ruby claimed to know him.

BK

[Antti Hynonen]

Bill,

I don't know if you already have the Adele Edisen case (and Jose Rivera) of foreknowledge. I believe Adele Edisen is a member of the Forum as well.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKedisen.htm

Edited August 22, 2006 by Antti Hynonen

[William Kelly]

Bill,

I don't know if you already have the Adele Edisen case (and Jose Rivera) of foreknowledge. I believe Adele Edisen is a member of the Forum as well.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKedisen.htm

Indeed, Antti, I have mentioned Adele Edisen case and Dr./Col. Jose Rivera ( USAR), and that he expressed not only foreknowledge of the assassination in Dallas, Oswald's role, and Ruby, but that he gave AE Oswald's Magazine Street phone number two weeks before Oswald himself knew he would be living there. Now that's spooky.

BK

[Robert Howard]

I have mentioned Adele Edisen case and Dr./Col. Jose Rivera ( USAR), and that he expressed not only foreknowledge of the assassination in Dallas, Oswald's role, and Ruby, but that he gave AE Oswald's Magazine Street phone number two weeks before Oswald himself knew he would be living there. Now that's spooky.

BK

Good choice of word there.

Perhap's this isn't the ideal thread to post this, but it is at least, intertwined with it. I do not have this or I would post it .

Body of Secrets: James Bamford pages 131-135 concern the NSA in relation to the Assassination of JFK, that section of the book, has extremely pertinent information regarding NSA intercepts of various nations including information about Oswald possessing a short wave radio, and interest over the microdots passage in LHO's notebook.

[William Kelly]

In the course of perusing Mary Ferrell's Chronologies, I'm finding a lot of little nuggets that I didn't know before. Among them is further details of the Oxnard, California telephone conversation picked up by two operators, who heard a middle aged women warn that "The president will be shot at 10:30" - (12:30 CST).

This reference is from MFC p. 11 ( of 307), pagelink 485042. November 22, 1963.

According to this report, at 12:07 pm - 12:08 (CST; 10:10-PST) the women says "The President is going to die at 10:10."

What I didn't know is the extent of what she said. In addition, there is the remark:

"The Justice, the Supreme Court, there's going to be fire in all the windows; the government is going up in flames."

As she was connected to a party line, and not connected to anyone in particular, one of the operators interupted her, and she said to get off as she was using the line.

She then said, "The president is going to die at 10:30," which is what happened.

She mentioned the courts again and,

"The government takes over everything, lock stock and barrell."

The entire phone call lasted from ten to fifteen minutes.

Mary's citation is CD1107:82.83.

I was wondering if the court references give a clue as to her identiy, and whether there are any more notes or quotes as to what else was said.

Does anyone have any more on this? Other than RFK being interested in it.

BK

[Ron Ecker]

they sent [or their surrogates] people like Prouty to the S. Pole

This is a myth that needs to be laid to rest. In fact Prouty did exactly that in his ARRB interview, even though he was the one who started the myth. He tried to blame others for suspecting something sinister about the trip, even though he himself he had done so. Just another example of how any Prouty utterance about anything related to JFK needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

To begin with, there was no reason for the plotters to send Prouty anywhere, since despite anything and everything stated in his book or other writings to the contrary, he had nothing to do with protective services for JFK. He told the ARRB that the only connection he ever had with presidential security was in 1955, when he flew a plane for security personnel to Mexico City. Why would he suddenly be needed 8 years later regarding a trip by JFK to Dallas?

On the South Pole business, Prouty wrote in his book JFK (p. 284), "I have always wondered . . . whether that strange invitation that removed me so far from Washington and from the center of all things clandestine that I knew so well might have been connected to the events that followed." That, as far as I know, is the origin of the notion that there was something sinister about Prouty being sent to Antarctica. Yet when the ARRB asked him if he thought there was anything "sinister" about him being sent there (he escorted a group of scientists), Prouty stated, "Oh, no. I'd been working with them since 1959. It was so routine for them to call me, I didn't give it a second thought . . . it's the military custom to put an escort officer on board." Then he attributed the notion there might have been anything sinister to the ignorance of other people: "And even afterwards, when I heard people extrapolating in that sense - thinking that it wasn't my job - they didn't know I'd already been working with Antarctica people since 1959."

[Rex Bradford]

In the course of perusing Mary Ferrell's Chronologies, I'm finding a lot of little nuggets that I didn't know before. Among them is further details of the Oxnard, California telephone conversation picked up by two operators, who heard a middle aged women warn that "The president will be shot at 10:30" - (12:30 CST).

This reference is from MFC p. 11 ( of 307), pagelink 485042. November 22, 1963.

According to this report, at 12:07 pm - 12:08 (CST; 10:10-PST) the women says "The President is going to die at 10:10."

What I didn't know is the extent of what she said. In addition, there is the remark:

"The Justice, the Supreme Court, there's going to be fire in all the windows; the government is going up in flames."

As she was connected to a party line, and not connected to anyone in particular, one of the operators interupted her, and she said to get off as she was using the line.

She then said, "The president is going to die at 10:30," which is what happened.

She mentioned the courts again and,

"The government takes over everything, lock stock and barrell."

The entire phone call lasted from ten to fifteen minutes.

Mary's citation is CD1107:82.83.

I was wondering if the court references give a clue as to her identiy, and whether there are any more notes or quotes as to what else was said.

Does anyone have any more on this? Other than RFK being interested in it.

BK

For those who want to read the reports on the Oxnard call, here is CD 1107, p.82:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=107

And here is a Los Angeles FBI report on the Oxnard call. It notes that the Secret Service was notified - I don't know if any Secret Service records exist on this:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=183

Bill mentioned that he was reading through the Mary Ferrell Chronologies, which I recently posted on the MFF site. They are quite detailed and useful:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...o?docSetId=1111

Rex

[William Kelly]

In the course of perusing Mary Ferrell's Chronologies, I'm finding a lot of little nuggets that I didn't know before. Among them is further details of the Oxnard, California telephone conversation picked up by two operators, who heard a middle aged women warn that "The president will be shot at 10:30" - (12:30 CST).

This reference is from MFC p. 11 ( of 307), pagelink 485042. November 22, 1963.

According to this report, at 12:07 pm - 12:08 (CST; 10:10-PST) the women says "The President is going to die at 10:10."

What I didn't know is the extent of what she said. In addition, there is the remark:

"The Justice, the Supreme Court, there's going to be fire in all the windows; the government is going up in flames."

As she was connected to a party line, and not connected to anyone in particular, one of the operators interupted her, and she said to get off as she was using the line.

She then said, "The president is going to die at 10:30," which is what happened.

She mentioned the courts again and,

"The government takes over everything, lock stock and barrell."

The entire phone call lasted from ten to fifteen minutes.

Mary's citation is CD1107:82.83.

I was wondering if the court references give a clue as to her identiy, and whether there are any more notes or quotes as to what else was said.

Does anyone have any more on this? Other than RFK being interested in it.

BK

For those who want to read the reports on the Oxnard call, here is CD 1107, p.82:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=107

And here is a Los Angeles FBI report on the Oxnard call. It notes that the Secret Service was notified - I don't know if any Secret Service records exist on this:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=183

Bill mentioned that he was reading through the Mary Ferrell Chronologies, which I recently posted on the MFF site. They are quite detailed and useful:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...o?docSetId=1111

Rex

Thanks Rex,

I got some additional cases of foreknowledge of the assassination that I wanted to add to this list.

BK

[Karl Kinaski]

William Kelly said:

- Bray – See: Bray v. Bendix trial transcripts re: JEFCOTT.

- Cambridge, England – Telephone call. See: Bowen, Howard.

- Cheramie, Rose – Jack Ruby associate. See: Louisiana State Police (HSCA)

- Cole, Elizabeth - North New Jersey women who overheard Cubans talking about assassination.

- Dinkin, Eugene B. – American soldier in Germany, claims to have picked up on the assassination plot from Army Security Agency monitor of OAS, the Algerian French Generals, went AOL and tried to inform American ambassador. See : Russell, Dick, TMWKTM.

- Ecchevara, Homer - Anti-Castro Cuban predicated threat "when we get rid of Kennedy."

- Erdinger, Anton - Rudolf Steiger reported that Anton Erdinger said, "If Oswald gets a hold of him he (JFK) is finished," sometime around the June 26, 1963 speech in Berlin, German. WCD 817

- Grace, William – “Shortly before the assassination an executive of the Grace Lines was found unconscious in the street. Taken to a hospital, he mumbled that the president was to be shot. He had an appointment with Army Intelligence agents before he was found.” – (Paris Flamonde, The Kennedy Conspiracy). Also : “An executive of the Grace Lines suffered a concussion after coming into contact with an Army Intelligence agent. While in a delirium he said, ‘The President is in danger!...”. [Also Note LHO wrote to mother/brother he “made reservations on a Grace liner.” ]

- Kirknewton - Scottish radio intercept station, where former vet Air Force Security Agency personal later wrote about intercepting information about the assassination before it occurred. See: Wim docs/ Larry Hancock.

- Martinez, Jorge Soto – On Nov. 1, Martinez told Lillian Springler at Parrot Jungle in Miami JFK to be "shot between the eyes" by “Lee, been to Russia, Mexico.” JSM lived in apartment above Mike McLaney’s garage, former Cuban Customs, worked at Fountainblu Hotel.

- Martino, John – To his wife, on the morning of the assassination (See: Summers, Vanity Fair, SWHT), also Larry Hancock’s “Someone Would Have Talked.”

- Milteer, Joseph - (RIP Feb. 28, 1974) Alias Samuel Steven Story. See: William Agusta Somerset – Agent 88 - undercover conversations. In NO, April 63.

- Nagel, Richard Case - See: Russell, Dick; The Man Who Knew Too Much.

- Odio, Syliva – See: Fonzi, Gaeton (HSCA; The Last Investigation)/ Russell, Dick (TMWKTM).

- Oxnard, California telephone call – See: Peter Noyes, Legacy of Doubt.

- Paine, Michael – Was talking about political assassination as JFK was being killed.

- Philbrick, Herbert – See: Jean Hill. Philbrick expressed foreknowledge of the assassination.

- Rivera, Jose, Dr. (Col. USAR) – See: Adele Edisen (ARRB). Rivera not only expressed foreknowledge of JFK’s assassination, but also of his son Patrick’s premature death and that LHO would move into the apartment on Magazine Street, New Orleans before LHO knew.

- Underhill, G. Garrett – See: Turner, William, Ramparts.

xxx

 deleted

Edited June 19, 2023 by Karl Kinaski

[Kathleen Collins]

"Robert Kennedy felt that unless the women caller heard by the telephone supervisors was clairvoyant, there was sufficient reason to suspect she might have knowledge of the assassination plot. It bothered him to no end."

An interesting story. Did the FBI ever follow-up on this? Though I guess even it they wanted to [sic] they likely couldn't have done much as she was untraceable. What 'suspected' persons involved lived in that area?

Some people suspect that the murder of Karen Kupcent had something to do with the Oxnard call.

Karen's father was from the same Chicago neighborhood as Jack Ruby and Ruby claimed to know him.

BK

Karyn Kupcinet had no foreknowledge of the Kennedy Assassination. But she died because of the Assassination and Jack Ruby killing Oswald. There was a lot of heat about the Chicago Mob being behind the Assassination. When Ruby shot Oswald, Irv Kupcinet, the columnist and talk show host, sought out Paul Dorfman, who knew Ruby. He got a call put through to him at Palm Springs where Dorfman was "vacationing." Also in Palm Springs that weekend was Karyn Kupcinet, whom Chicagoans knew well. It is my theory that Dorfman was trying to think of something that would shock the populace of Chicago and make them forget about Ruby and the Chicago Mob for awhile. With Irv on the phone and Karyn being spotted (possibly), it might have dawned on Dorfman that were she murdered in Hollywood, Chicago would be shocked and for a time their attention would swayed to the murder, which has never been solved.

Kathy C

[Robert Howard]

"Robert Kennedy felt that unless the women caller heard by the telephone supervisors was clairvoyant, there was sufficient reason to suspect she might have knowledge of the assassination plot. It bothered him to no end."

An interesting story. Did the FBI ever follow-up on this? Though I guess even it they wanted to [sic] they likely couldn't have done much as she was untraceable. What 'suspected' persons involved lived in that area?

Some people suspect that the murder of Karen Kupcent had something to do with the Oxnard call.

Karen's father was from the same Chicago neighborhood as Jack Ruby and Ruby claimed to know him.

BK

Karyn Kupcinet had no foreknowledge of the Kennedy Assassination. But she died because of the Assassination and Jack Ruby killing Oswald. There was a lot of heat about the Chicago Mob being behind the Assassination. When Ruby shot Oswald, Irv Kupcinet, the columnist and talk show host, sought out Paul Dorfman, who knew Ruby. He got a call put through to him at Palm Springs where Dorfman was "vacationing." Also in Palm Springs that weekend was Karyn Kupcinet, whom Chicagoans knew well. It is my theory that Dorfman was trying to think of something that would shock the populace of Chicago and make them forget about Ruby and the Chicago Mob for awhile. With Irv on the phone and Karyn being spotted (possibly), it might have dawned on Dorfman that were she murdered in Hollywood, Chicago would be shocked and for a time their attention would swayed to the murder, which has never been solved.

Kathy C

Forgive me If I am mistaken, but somone made a post over the last couple of months ago that the Oxnard phone call had been traced back to a "law firm in California," do you happen to know anything about that?

If something of that nature could be verified it would be the kind of big break that would be rather significant.

[Peter McGuire]

-- Nagel, Richard Case - See: Russell, Dick; The Man Who Knew Too Much.

- lee

Just got my second edition copy from Amazon - $7 including postage.

Key point in the forward by Carl Oglesby in The Man Who Knew Too Much.

Regarding Oswald's impersonation in Mexico City - " Why might someone want to impersonate a "nobody" and a "loner" such as Oswald.....

Edited October 19, 2010 by Peter McGuire