Possible Knoll Weapon?

[Lee Forman]

Funny you should mention the man who isn't there.

Years ago I had been adjusting the contrast/brightness and other filters when suddenly,

directly beside that tree, the faint negative image of a man kneeling had come into view.

What I found very interesting at the time was the similarity of this persons receding hairline

and the hairline of the "Oswald" in Mexico.

I have never mentioned this to anyone because I knew I would be jumped on from every

direction for "seeing" a man who wasn't there..

If you have good graphic files of the knoll try adjusting the contrast/brightness etc. until

you have a negative image and look right next to the tree.

I will try to find my picture and pull the image out that I am talking about.

I hope I manage to find the darn thing again. I have gigabytes of JFK related files on my

hard drives.

I'd like to see what you came up with Chuck. I played around with the Moorman for many tens of hours - plus worked to collect the best quality versions I could come by - what a waste of time really. I found what could be individuals in multiple locations - or what could be simple artifacts. Strange that the artifacts all seem to be the same scale as the other people in the photo, and that they should be so 'humanlike' in appearance. I still wonder if Groden's pal wasn't on the level when he suggested that people were added into the photo afterwards.

Anyway - I ended up not trusting the photo, or myself, since it seemed impossible that there could have been that many individuals in the area.

In the area of the tree trunk, however, I do agree that there appears to be someone there. I worked hard to enhance and interpolate that area, since IMHO, it would be much closer to where Gordon Arnold claimed to have been located.

No clue. There is also some strange aberration which appears on the other side of the tree trunk as well, a bit higher up. 'Stepman' is the only one I personally have a high degree of confidence in as being present. That's a scan of the Moorman as it was published in the Herald, I think, and the inset is a crop from the 'Zippo.'

- lee

[Lee Forman]

Hi all,

To make clear, I know you can hear a silenced bullet. Trust me. (I got the hell out of dodge. I'd describe it as a bumble-bee)

And from Arnold describtion I understand he was real close. And military trained, so familiar with gunshots (has to be). And I consider his reaction to be natural, if not trained to do so.

But I have seen just one interview with him, and that did not become very clear to me. Some may have seen other interviews, where his words are slightly differend/ more specific. Just to be carefull, and trying not to kill the threat.

This gun fits my findings very much.

Maarten

Hi Maarten - the one thing that bothers me about the gun is the size. I still wonder if we haven't all been taken for a ride - or if there was possibly more than one shooter in this general area, and there were shots withheld or misses. eg 'Did you retrieve the 'pellet?'

While I agree with Chris concerning the weapon matching the description provided by Arnold - that was a weapon held by the man in the cop's uniform with the dirty fingernails that was visibly emotionally disturbed and crying - is he also a shooter? I wish we could know more about what really went on there in this area - but it's again my own personal opinion that it's been 'scrubbed' from the record.

I've mentioned it before - Lifton in his phone interview with Altgens has Altgens seeming to recall that there were people in that area. And that some appeared to be Police. Hudson has a whole bunch back there - and also says something peculiar [iMO] about the 'Patrols.'

Logically, I would have scrubbed it as well, if the game plan was to twist the story so that there was only a single shooter in the TSBD. Here's the Muchmore, where the Phantom does his fancy 'exit, stage left' - defying logic and gravity. The man on the stairs is still there - they seem to have simply tinted him over, or underexposed the negative or something. I still assume that at some point, the paths of 'El Phantasmo' and 'El Hombre de las escaladas' converge as he makes his exit.

- lee

[Maarten Coumans]

Lee Foreman wrote:

"'Did you retrieve the 'pellet?'" No silly, too young . Did you?

The reason I came up with that spot, was a frame in Zapruder. That shows up on all copies. Except on image of..... . (Strange, happens more.), where I take a position that some of the bullets can be spotted in the image. Note: not all. Not all scratches are bullets, or vice versa. A silenced bullet (sub-sonic) travels at approx 18 meter per frame (330/18.3) depending on air-pressure

For this I compare for instance witness testimony "His ear, just blew off" with autopsy. His right ear is hanging, only attached to the face. And I see small hole(s) through the ear. That I find back in white blobs after Kennedy emerges behind roadsign.

An X-ray if his upper-body and neck shows a dislocated disc at his neck. I think this has happened around emerging. He looks a bit toward Zapruder, and his head sinks between his shoulders. (IMO he was nearly dead)

In the frames hereafter, I can only see movement caused by the limo, and possible bullets. Making his head tumble in all directions.

Well to make a long story short. I think to see a bullet pass between John and Jackie at 323. Landing just in the edge of the grass, I think. (Everybody has JFK, so can look it up)

I think to find confirmation in a man doing early foto analysis, a colour-technique to find fractures in steel. He made card-board cut out in layers to duplicate a 3D image of the remains of Kennedy's head. Ending up being all confused, and concluded to a shot from the sewer (??? not my cup a tea). His troubles had to do with timing. I mean, we all assume we see badgeman firing (could be the sunlight from under his elbow reflected from background), because Moorman reacted to a (his) shot. This is where I divert. IMO 313 was from fence (right-front), 323 was from behind Arnold (right, but miss). I think thàt to be consistand with the researcher's findings. "A couple of feet down the road. But then Moorman was in the wrong spot. I could not make everything fit." (Well that last bit.... get used to it.)A couple of feet down the road, comes to about 10 frames? Half a second?

As well as Arnold still standing at the time of the Moorman-foto, to me his camera is still aimed.

Perhaps wishfull thinking on my part.

From foto's after, I know there was a lot of digging at least around the sewer lit. A police-man standing guard as evidence was "propperly processed", see below. Not the spot I referred to.... helas, or not.

Maarten

[Guest Mark Valenti]

delete

Edited September 21, 2006 by Mark Valenti

[Jack White]

Funny you should mention the man who isn't there.

Years ago I had been adjusting the contrast/brightness and other filters when suddenly,

directly beside that tree, the faint negative image of a man kneeling had come into view.

What I found very interesting at the time was the similarity of this persons receding hairline

and the hairline of the "Oswald" in Mexico.

I have never mentioned this to anyone because I knew I would be jumped on from every

direction for "seeing" a man who wasn't there..

If you have good graphic files of the knoll try adjusting the contrast/brightness etc. until

you have a negative image and look right next to the tree.

I will try to find my picture and pull the image out that I am talking about.

I hope I manage to find the darn thing again. I have gigabytes of JFK related files on my

hard drives.

I'd like to see what you came up with Chuck. I played around with the Moorman for many tens of hours - plus worked to collect the best quality versions I could come by - what a waste of time really. I found what could be individuals in multiple locations - or what could be simple artifacts. Strange that the artifacts all seem to be the same scale as the other people in the photo, and that they should be so 'humanlike' in appearance. I still wonder if Groden's pal wasn't on the level when he suggested that people were added into the photo afterwards.

Anyway - I ended up not trusting the photo, or myself, since it seemed impossible that there could have been that many individuals in the area.

In the area of the tree trunk, however, I do agree that there appears to be someone there. I worked hard to enhance and interpolate that area, since IMHO, it would be much closer to where Gordon Arnold claimed to have been located.

No clue. There is also some strange aberration which appears on the other side of the tree trunk as well, a bit higher up. 'Stepman' is the only one I personally have a high degree of confidence in as being present. That's a scan of the Moorman as it was published in the Herald, I think, and the inset is a crop from the 'Zippo.'

- lee

Lee...I think the Moorman clip is from the Fort Worth Press, not the DTH.

Jack

[Lee Forman]

Lee...I think the Moorman clip is from the Fort Worth Press, not the DTH.

Jack

Thanks Jack - would you happen to know which paper first carried the Moorman and the date? I wasted quit a bit on the 11/22 and 11/23 editions of the Herald and the Morning News unfortunately. I read that it was first published in some west coast newspapers and not in Dallas?

- lee

[Maarten Coumans]

With regard to Badgeman in Moorman.

I believe to be a problem with line of sight. And I have to agree so. From the picture, I cannot imagine a clear line of sight towards Kennedy, let allone for 313. A couple of feet further, may mean a big improvement. If only Kennedy would sit still ......mmm..

This one is for Ryan Crowe:

"A bullet can be seen in the Z-Film? please show me this......."

I am trying to be carefull. Please read my posts, not what you read via via.

I wanted to save this for later. But here it goes.

Of course highly speculative:

This one comes from JFK.

It is hard to tell, but at autopsy's I can see an outline of a hole through the top part of the right ear. IMO.

I though I had a better one. But you get the idea. See below

That is one, I think

What do you think?

Maarten

[Ryan Crowe]

As far as the bullet, I dont believe thats what that is, first the color is off, these look like some kind of defect in the film, look at the same towards the top of the presidents head and you can see the same but not as bright. Lets say that is a bullet, at that angle and that large of caliber, Jackie's face would have been a mess, with skull, brains, blood etc.

That ear photo is interesting, but it could be dried blood as you can see in his ear canal and around the inside of the ear.

What frame did this come from on the Z-Film?

Good eye Marteen, most likely is nothing, but good observation on your part...

[Maarten Coumans]

Hi Ryan,

I find the same scene in Z259. But the forehead of Connelly seems out of place. Image of... is darker. Has pickles. Shows not the object. Shows only in JFK (that is why I wanted to wait)

The things you said have puzzled me as well, for quite a while.

Back to what you said. A bullet that size would exit on the other side, and smuther/hit Jackie:

IF!

My best guess is, it is a bullet from a silenced gun. Those things do not travel that fast. At a max of 18 m/frame as it leaves the barrel. Anything faster, you have a sonic boom from the bullet.

Air-resistance etc. diminishing speed. If could ever capture a bullet on film, it would be one of those.

Another one: by reducing the speed, for instance, in half, the energy is reduced to a quart!!!! Still going through the head?

Headshot: YES. Through the head: NO. WHY: Leaves exit wound, additional evidence (need to look for matter, and the bullet. And more difficult to hide for autopsy's, and X-ray's), as well might hit unsuspecting bystanders, or Jackie. Now the evidence should travel with John to the hospital. They declare him dead (bring the bad news, and get stuffed with paperwork), and the body is captured before autopsy.

Next the ear: Too wrinkled. IMO.

And perhaps you know the Dutch band Golden Earring. They had an album ".....CUT.....", on the cover was a playing card, Jack of diamonds, as it was ...cut... by a bullet, (bullet) still visible in the frame/foto.

This was done in a studio etc..... Still.

As well, STILL: IF

Ryan, U sniper?

Maarten

[Maarten Coumans]

Hi Ryan,

With regards to your question about colour. Wrong colour....

Does it have to be a copper jacket. Iron Metal-Jacket, or a massive lead one will do as well.

IMO. I would go for lead, softer. Deforms on impact, twists insides to mush. And if it reaches the other side of the skull, the tip of the bullet is blund. Making an exit hole more difficult. I think with an iron jacket, the deforming would be less, so less internal mushing up (less resistance), and a bigger chance for exit wound. Messing on Jackie, or wounding her.

Lead , definately lead. IMO.

Maarten

Edited September 24, 2006 by Maarten Coumans

[Ryan Crowe]

Marteen, Is someone feeding you this bogus info on a bullet that is silenced will not move fast enough to exit JFK's head and make Jackie's face a disaster with blood, brain etc? ever see what a humans head looks like after being struck by a 12 gauge slug SOLID LEAD moving at under 1600 fps? How about a .45LC thats moving at 810 fps in solid lead? guess what, a .45LC would have blown right threw JFK's head, and this is a small caliber compared to a large caliber rifle round, your picture that you "think" is a bullet, would equal out to a .50 BMG/CAL OVER 600 GRAINS lol. Air Resisitance you say, was there a katrina blowing through Dallas that day lol? your talking shots under 100 yards....

You really need to study ballistics, Firearms before making these claims, as they are all wrong, as for lead vs copper LMAO, Well no there could have been a solid piece of lead, firing from a musket, maybe it was Davy Crockett firing behind the picket fence LOL..

Am I a sniper?, I dont think this questions has to do with anything related to what we are talking about, but I will answer your question the best I can, I have trained under former Marine Corps Snipers, I have trained under LAPD SWAT snipers, I have competed in numerous 600- 1000 yard matches and have won my share. I teach Long range rifle shooting, and CQB in handgun, shotgun, and rifle. I also teach private self defense with the same weapons above. And ive done other things, that dont need to be brought out as it has nothing to do with JFK assassination or me helping the good folks here that want to learn about firearms and ballistics, folks here know me and have asked me many questions over the years, I do my best to help. And as a hobby, ive studied rifles, handguns, weapons in general that date from WW2 to current for the past 15-20 years. Do a search under my name, you will see what I know, and dont know.

How about you? please tell your range exp, your studies, your training, that give you the support to say these things? If you do a search, notice I dont post in "photo evidence" why? cause I dont know a damn thing about photography etc, I cannot see half of the things these folks see, and will not hesitate to tell these people that I admire them for looking into this stuff in great detail, cause all I see is a blob.

I have 12 students to teach today, like every Sunday, 4 getting ready for the next Camp Perry shoot and other comps, the others are from the Border patrol SRT team, that contacted me to help "hone" there skills.

Well like the Gunny always told me, time to get into my bubble...

[Ryan Crowe]

Also, as for music, never heard of Golden eagle, im more of a Waylon Jennings fan, Johhny Cash, Willie Nelson.

[Maarten Coumans]

Hi Ryan,

I asked wheather u were a sniper. Because of your Avatar. And it is nice to know something from someone's background. (as well as pictures not help, so I will not throw them at you.)

I did not mean to disrespect your profession, knowledge or passion. I have the idea it is in your blood, if I may say so. (comes out in the avatar as well....)

My majors are not in that field at all.

More physics, and biology, and some history, in school terms. I like pictures. I have never been in the army, never fired a shot. My interst in weapons is from a safe distance. Behind monitor or tv screen. Therefore I value your first hand oppinion/information/experience. Not if you misread.

My web-knowledge from a silencer comes from http://people.howstuffworks.com/question112.htm . Where they explain that the extension(silencer) on the barrel can only absorb the muzzle-blast (exploding gas).

-

Quote:

Several alert readers have written to point out that a bullet that travels at supersonic speeds cannot be silenced because the bullet creates its own little sonic boom as it travels. Many high-powered loads travel at supersonic speeds. The silencer can remove the "uncorking" sound, but not the sound of the bullet's flight.

-

So that is how I come up with a sub-sonic bullet, silenced. Camera has 18.3 frames per second. So maximum distance travelled per frame is a matter of calculating. (max. 18 meter per frame)

Well, air-resistance. If I nòt mention it, ....... samo. So throw Katrina over it.... cheap.

I have seen a .50 movie clip. And a round........ NOT LOL ..... deffinately NOT.

I think you exagerate the size in the picture(s).

And the ear and frame line up too nice to disregard, IMO. The place is real/too odd for blood to gather that way, and the small tears all around make it real suspicious to me (biology). The ear is made of very flexible material. Meaning does not break, like bone.

Shot under 100 yards, certainly. Plaza not that big on that side. Still important for drop of the bullet (correct?).

And the reduction of speed to a half, resulting in a reduction in energy to a quart. No doubt about that. Newton's law.

I am not comparing density of lead vs copper.

Can only Davy Crockett shoot with lead bullets? .. solves a lot of cases, call FBI, Ryan found it......LOL..Davey Crocket. Find Hoffa when you are at it.

Serious. Of course I mean a bullet of lead, no extra's (hollow, or with additional material). May look stretched, longer in the picture than is in reality. Moving.

From shooter's point of view was a bloodbath not "desired", otherwise a coupple machineguns (DeGaulle), or handgranade's (bomb, 1914). Would be easier.

Required finesse.(....) Not like above.

Sure they had lots of time to practice/prepare, and plenty of experience. And picked the weapons that would fit their needs best. Not necessarily the ones that do the most damage... The right damage! So you can get away with it!

For a cover-up. It is more practical to have the bullet stuck inside Kennedy, as let it leave the body. As I described in previous post. And adapt/reduce the amound of powder used, as required to do the job, is a matter of preparation.(For example: Shoot at a mellon at 50 yards. Comes the bullet out? Yes? Less powder. Again...... Till you get it right. "Two boxes of those, please?" . Kinda hard to walk into a morgue, "Give me 2 dozen heads...Well, make it 3 dozen."-" On who's name shall I make the bill?").

-

Wrong colour bullet.... How many colours do you have in '63? (Well, we have blue, green. Orange is very popular at the moment.... two boxes? Is it a present? Oh, happy birthday, shall I giftwrap? Looks good with the sweater, makes the eyes come out......... literally! ....LMAO.......New! With vanilla taste ...)

-

Golden Earring (from among:"Radar Love"). Well, this is the picture:

Maarten.

[Ryan Crowe]

Nice picture, This was a staged event in the Golden Eagle photo, with much more technology then old Z had in his hands, was it not?

.50 cal, well see you are looking at a movie, a clip, a picture, and more likely looking at it with its case, ever seen one before loading in person? dont answer that, we both no the answer, its NO. and since you dont think its a .50 cal size, what size Cal. is it? Its nothing, as its not a bullet....

Again, search under my name, I gave a full description on how silencers work, I believe this was a year or so ago, I believe Mr Simkins asked me to post it if I recall correctly.

You can never "expect" a bullet to do what you want it to,Like staying inside the presidents head. Ever read on how lots of HP rounds fail to expand? why they fail to stay inside there intended target? yet people still load them for self defense, in "hopes" they will get the job done, dumping there kinetic energy inside there target, expanding and causing larger wound channels, and staying inside there target so others will not be struck.............Everything looks great on paper, but this isnt always the case.

Shooting a watermelon LOL, wont touch that one, do you realize how fragile a humans head is?Ever fired rounds into ballistic gelatin? oh whoops nope, nevermind you havent even fired a gun, still dont know why folks waste great watermelon like that LOL.

Yes cartlidge, the ear, im thinking they didnt want to remove his ear wax LOL, with a statement like that, Dang I wonder what would have happend if they shot right threw his ear drum, not hitting any skull and right out through his other ear, uh oh, I wonder if they thought about that scenerio LOL.

Shooting is not something you read about,watch a movie, go to the range, and presto, you know how to hit man sized targets at 1000 yards, moving targets etc, if that was the case, Oswald was the assassin, and only needed one shot...hmmmm doesnt sound right does it? LOL

A bullet drops due to gravitational pull.......Go to the range and do it, dont read about it.

Just so you know, there was another lady here that posted how she had seen a bullet in the z-film, wonder where she is hmmmmmm lol.

So do you think they used a semi or automatic type weapon with a low powder charge with a silencer for this assassination for quick follow up shots? How fast are you saying this "supposed" round is traveling in the z-film?

Also what happens if they miss with these low powder charged rounds? since we do have eye witnesses that seen misses, and have Tague being struck in the face. Hmmm guess there was no need for those super duper low powder charged rounds as they all didnt stay inside the presidents body, so what was the point in using them again?

In 1963 the color of choice was copper LOL

Quote

From shooter's point of view was a bloodbath not "desired", otherwise a coupple machineguns (DeGaulle), or handgranade's (bomb, 1914). Would be easier.

Uhhhhhhhhh have you watched the Z-Film? Looks like like a nasty head explosion, whooops so much for the "low powder charged stay in your head round".

[Maarten Coumans]

I have the idea that reading is not one of your strongest points.

I googled 50 BMG/CAL http://www.mauser.org/rifles/blackarrow/index.htm

In another clip I saw a round manually loaded. for scale. Do not need to be a ballistics expert to look for scale.

I have seen a bullet (from rifle, similar to the Carcano) in ballistics gel. Can happen.... (BTW.did they have ballistics gel in '63? Could have saved some melons)

That was a very respectable distance (longer than a human head-size, ear to ear!), and the bullet was curled backward from the front. (very differend from the Magic bullet CE399)

Quote:"A bullet drops due to gravitational pull.......Go to the range and do it, dont read about it." Kicking in open doors.

That people have been looking in the grass for bullets ...... Kicking in open doors....

You seem to have a hard time distinguishing sexes...

Glad you did not have to read your orders...... when active.

Perhaps you can explain to me how Arlen Spectre could have come up with the magic bullet. Making 7 wounds with one slightly dent bullet.

Only as a way to get the blame on Oswald.

And that it ended up being a bloodbath after all ...... Otherwise no-one would have ever have known.

Not according to plan... Happens. Not my fault/idea.

Why are they so mystery's about autopsy foto's. Or have been altered (officially the scalp has to be grown back .......you ever seen such a thing..... maybe ask Katrina).

My guess is: that more bullets hit than they assumed that day. But by the time of Z310 it is not clear to them wheather Kennedy is dead, so they pulled the emergency cord. Resulting in a very clear, deceased Z313. In spite the efforts of preparation/planning (finesse, well: Jackie was still allive.). To discover in the hospital the (little) left over from the President's head. And suppressed all evidence and testimony.

Like you said: perfectly planned on paper.

Every possible shooter on the North side of Elm, can see in advance the risk of hitting Jackie in case of bullet going through, or a bystander in case of a miss. Do not need a trained eye for that. For those shooters, facing those problems, bullets with less powder are very usefull. IMO. Depending on the cover, and space, a silencer can be added. No one will/should ever find out. Matter of preparation. that part was real quiet Z

For shots fired from the area behind Kennedy (TSBD area), at least one is not silenced IMO. So Oswald could be blamed. As well as the bullets would remain in the car...

Nice quote:

"Also what happens if they miss with these low powder charged rounds? since we do have eye witnesses that seen misses, and have Tague being struck in the face. Hmmm guess there was no need for those super duper low powder charged rounds as they all didnt stay inside the presidents body, so what was the point in using them again?"

You state: the misses. Where do you find them in the WR (3 bullet, one assassin). Where are the sounds that go with that? I saw a lot of digging, see foto. What happened to that? Tague being struck. 7 Wounds, they say, with one dent bullet. Found on a stretcher. Good question at the wrong person.

Where did you think they came from. How could Tague see concrete fly around (and get wounded). Hide for a while, come up again just in time to see the limo leave the Plaza. There is no way you can line up the concrete hole with the 6th floor of the TSBD. And in between having Kennedy at a normal sized body in such a short time. Or a terrible miss (hardly an effort). So look for other shooting points, like a low Dal-Tex window might be more likely for that one IMO. That is a differend part in the discussion...

What is super duper about them, recently you claimed only Davy Crocket could fire those "super duper low powder charged rounds"...... or lead ..... I was calling the FBI... lmao.

Only less powder. Enough to go through the skull, and a bit further. In this example. And why I would go for lead because it it is soft. For that rifle, on that position. NOT CHARGED. WHERE DID THAT COME FROM?

Ear-canal -ear canal ..... would be Huge problem (no skull).... exit wound.... is off topic.

Just head-shot. Seems difficult enough... Maybe if you had instructed them......rather not.

One thing at a time.

Why use them again: because Kennedy is still sitting..... (Shooter looking at the rifle: "Is this thing working?" , and counting it as a miss, wrongfully, sometimes)

The whole thing takes up to 15 sec. "Gotta find me a green bullet. Please stop for a minute, mr. Kennedy. Where did I put them..."....

And:

"you know how to hit man sized targets at 1000 yards, moving targets etc, if that was the case, Oswald was the assassin, and only needed one shot...hmmmm doesnt sound right does it? LOL".... I do not, never claim I have (or Oswald has). Through "heavy foilage (leaves)"........ According to the WC the third one was bulls-eye. Reduces man-size, to head size (less target, more difficult.IMO). At 1000 feet. Moving target. Defective scope. No gun powder on his cheek..... LMAO... as far as I am concerned Oswald did not even fire a weapon that day. Let allone at Kennedy. FYI. So where that comes from....????

"You can never "expect" a bullet to do what you want it to,Like staying inside the presidents head." Well if a bullet came to a halt in the presidents head. It stays there. Body-checked out again by another bullet, show me? Climbing out by itself, show me that? LOL.... not serious. There are a couple of unknowns, that might influence the outcome. Aim for the temple, hit in the ear. He moved.

You control the rifle, the amound of gunpowder, and the bullet. Do not throw all in one pile.

With regards to bullet staying in head..... Lincoln.......

From assassin's point of view not interesting (get job done...... next..). May be important for the financers/organizing committee to make a refference to Lincoln. And the Cover-Up. As well as keeping Jackie intact.

A saying on (semi-)automatic etc. is pure speculation (since it is your area!), but I will give it a bash: since I think reduced powder is used, at least for one, on the right side of the limo, is it safe to assume the rifle will have less gaspressure/recoil to reload, in case of a (semi-) automatic. Neither one!

So I would guess a manual operated rifle. That leaves less chance of a problem, like: not reloading properly (wasting time on that). Counting on one, maybe 2 shots at the most. Obstacles like people (Get out of the way, people! I am working here!), roadsign, Making one more likely. The time the limo took, makes 2 possible.

Does that add up?

Maarten.