Possible Knoll Weapon?

[Chris Newton]

I haven't written much about the assassination in the last twelve months but I've spent a lot of time thinking about the issues that have been gnawing at me.

One of these issues was brought up a long time ago on jfkresearch.com. Someone had suggested that one of the three men on the steps may have had a submachine gun. I discounted the thought almost immediately and I still don't believe any of those three men were shooters.

The submachine gun theory did touch another nerve with me. I really could not make it fit until just recently when a possible explanation hit my like a ton of bricks.

I have long thought that there wasn't necessarily one shot from the knoll. There is ample evidence suggesting that several rounds were fired. I'm not going to re-hash all the instances of missed shots but I'd suggest looking at Mike Griffith's excellent article (http://ourworld.cs.com/mikegriffith1/id139.htm) and John S. Craig's "The Guns of Dealey Plaza" (http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/11th_Issue/guns_dp.html).

Several witnesses have described what would seem to be an event other than a lone nut methodically working the action of a carbine and firing solo.

"Mr. SPECTER. Now, in your prior testimony you described a flurry of shells into the car. How many shots did you hear after the first noise which you described as sounding like a firecracker?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, these shells came in all together."(1)

Richard Randolph Carr testified at the Clay Shaw Trial. He was, in my opinion, one of the most qualified persons to ask about the gunshots in the plaza. He had been a Ranger in the Fifth Ranger Battalion at Anzio and one of thirteen men that survived, his entire battalion was, in his words, "annihilated". He stated the first shot he heard was "small arms", a pistol then three shots in succession. He also stated they were very close together, "they were fired from a semi-automatic or either...(cut off by an objection)". He also stated that they came from the knoll and at least one had "kicked up the grass".

As an aside, I noted this little tidbit in Mr. Carr's testimony:

"Q As a result of your conversations with the Federal Bureau of Investigation, What did you do?

A I done as I was instructed, I shut my mouth."(2)

Gordon Arnold stated the weapon he saw was like a shotgun. "And I was facing a large bore weapon, and the man was crying.” Conover asks, “What do you mean by a large bore weapon?” to which Arnold claims, “Like a shotgun…” “… but it looked… it was big enough for a truck to drive through.” (3) (I'm not going to debate Gordon Arnold's story - I have not formulated an opinion for lack of evidence -either way - but at this time, his is the only voice so far that has said anything about a strange weapon on the knoll.)

Many witnesses noted smoke coming from the knoll, some also noted the "smell of gunpowder". This smell and/or smoke does not occur down range. It occurs at the source and may drift and travel a short distance on the wind.

In the past I have closely studied all the reports on the acoustic evidence trying to determine what weapon type most closely matched the sounds and velocity calculations done and wether I agreed with the expert's conclusions. I still don't have an answer on this subject but I've been leaning towards a subsonic round. On a lark I decided that "badgeman" could have been firing a sabot through his shotgun. I've found sabot examples for a 12 gauge shotgun that could have been used in 1963. But this would be a slow round to load and could not account for the rapid fire noted by some witnesses I consider more reliable (i.e the combat vets).

Gordon Arnold's statement also bothered me, if he's telling the truth, why would a young man from Texas and in the Army not know if a weapon was a shotgun or not?

I also remember, although I don't know where from (someone please help me out with citations) that there had been some discussion that JFK's head wound resembled something caused more likely by a .45 than a jacketed .30x

There's also been some speculation that a .45 round had been picked up in the grass in the area I noted earlier.

So my problem was this I needed a weapon that is:

1) semi automatic or automatic

2) subsonic

3) "shotgun like"

4) possibly a .45

Well, that weapon is a Delisle .45 Carbine.

The Delisle was highly regarded as the best silenced weapon of WW2. It has been documented as having been in the OSS inventory despite only about 130 being produced. It is rumored to still be utilized by some SAS.

Here's a link to it's story: http://www.valkyriearms.com/delisle.pdf

When I first saw this picture I immediately thought of Arnold's comment "big enough to drive a truck through".

[Lee Forman]

One of these issues was brought up a long time ago on jfkresearch.com. Someone had suggested that one of the three men on the steps may have had a submachine gun. I discounted the thought almost immediately and I still don't believe any of those three men were shooters.

Great post.

If it was me, the suggestion was not that one of three visible men in the Moorman was a shooter - the theory was that two of the individuals present were real, and one was added to provide cover and a story for the third man on the steps, who was gradually removed. This third guy - in a squatting position, using his knee to stabilize the weapon - would have been the shooter - and what I was continually looking for was silenced automatic weapons, connections to WerBell, possible covert weapons that would resemble cameras or be camoflauged with a camera mounted on top of the weapon, GSAPs, etc. I remember how I was laughed at when I was initially looking at some kind of silenced greasegun.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...ost&p=24546

Worth adding are the reports of automatic gunfire having been heard - beyond what you have posted - if memory serves James Richards posted those. I had other reasons for looking for an automatic - maybe it's worth running back over again. I guess it's only hearsay that someone in the plaza had an automatic cached in a briefcase? Can't recall where I read that.

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:NXOTE...t=clnk&cd=5

What drew my interest to WerBell was not his color nor his wit; it was his business, his background and his associates. It appeared that Jack Ruby was involved in arms dealing and smuggling. So was Mitch WerBell. A passionate anti-Communist, WerBell has run a series of weapons manufacturing and marketing firms -- principally Military Armament Corporation and its Washington-based parent, Quantum Ordinance Bankers -- which advanced supplied countries and groups around the world with advanced weaponry, including the Ingram M-ll, a hand-held, quiet machine gun. WerBell has been call a "creative genius" for his designs of noise suppressor for automatic weapons and for other "silent-kill" devices. He has also been termed the "principal supplier of the CIA's most sophisticated weapons."

This guy is hiding in plain sight. His only cover is the shade of the live oak. Despite that fact, and the troubling problem of his lack of existence in Muchmore, Nix, Willis photos, etc. - I still like him for the one that delivered the shot to Kennedy's head.

It was also in Sam Pate's stuff where he suggested that Hargis believed that the shooter was located in the storm drain due to the sound of the shot that came from this direction. It was muffled, Sam said, unlike the others. Another reason I thought it may be possible was the sound heard by Sitzman on the alleged coke bottle smashing. One bottle on the wall. Thick glass. No evidence of broken glass on the walk. No recollection by any eye-witness of broken glass in the area. No record of any black couple in that location. I thought that perhaps she had heard the result of supressed fire and the tinkling of shells as they ejected and struck the concrete there.

And on and on and on.

That's a nice looking weapon. Maybe with a special scope it would even qualify for the account provided by the man in the press bus - can't find the reference and I know I posted it - where he has a man making his way up the steps, ducking as if he was being fired upon, carrying what looked like a camera - but not like any camera this news guy had ever seen before.

Still a lot of mystery concerning what transpired in this area - I see no reason to doubt Arnold's story myself either.

- lee

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Early reports from Dallas newspapers indicative of a frontal shot, more than one shooter.

DALLAS TIMES HERALD. 11/22/03.

" In the BACKof the Presidents head was a gaping hole"........"Dr Clark first looked at the striken President he saw a large gaping wound in the back of the head, there was a massive loss of tissue.

" Dr perry was busy with the wound in the Presidents neck, it was midline, in the lower portion of the neck...below the Adams apple...it was an entrance wound."

" Witnesses said six, or seven shots were fired in bursts and were clearly heard."

" Reporters about five car lengths behind the President, heard what sounded like three bursts of gunfire."

" A few witnesses pointed toward the textbook building,but most ran to the west side of the building, thinking the shots came frombehind the bushes, and fence dividing the street from a railway yard."

[Jack White]

I haven't written much about the assassination in the last twelve months but I've spent a lot of time thinking about the issues that have been gnawing at me.

One of these issues was brought up a long time ago on jfkresearch.com. Someone had suggested that one of the three men on the steps may have had a submachine gun. I discounted the thought almost immediately and I still don't believe any of those three men were shooters.

The submachine gun theory did touch another nerve with me. I really could not make it fit until just recently when a possible explanation hit my like a ton of bricks.

I have long thought that there wasn't necessarily one shot from the knoll. There is ample evidence suggesting that several rounds were fired. I'm not going to re-hash all the instances of missed shots but I'd suggest looking at Mike Griffith's excellent article (http://ourworld.cs.com/mikegriffith1/id139.htm) and John S. Craig's "The Guns of Dealey Plaza" (http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/11th_Issue/guns_dp.html).

Several witnesses have described what would seem to be an event other than a lone nut methodically working the action of a carbine and firing solo.

"Mr. SPECTER. Now, in your prior testimony you described a flurry of shells into the car. How many shots did you hear after the first noise which you described as sounding like a firecracker?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, these shells came in all together."(1)

Richard Randolph Carr testified at the Clay Shaw Trial. He was, in my opinion, one of the most qualified persons to ask about the gunshots in the plaza. He had been a Ranger in the Fifth Ranger Battalion at Anzio and one of thirteen men that survived, his entire battalion was, in his words, "annihilated". He stated the first shot he heard was "small arms", a pistol then three shots in succession. He also stated they were very close together, "they were fired from a semi-automatic or either...(cut off by an objection)". He also stated that they came from the knoll and at least one had "kicked up the grass".

As an aside, I noted this little tidbit in Mr. Carr's testimony:

"Q As a result of your conversations with the Federal Bureau of Investigation, What did you do?

A I done as I was instructed, I shut my mouth."(2)

Gordon Arnold stated the weapon he saw was like a shotgun. "And I was facing a large bore weapon, and the man was crying.” Conover asks, “What do you mean by a large bore weapon?” to which Arnold claims, “Like a shotgun…” “… but it looked… it was big enough for a truck to drive through.” (3) (I'm not going to debate Gordon Arnold's story - I have not formulated an opinion for lack of evidence -either way - but at this time, his is the only voice so far that has said anything about a strange weapon on the knoll.)

Many witnesses noted smoke coming from the knoll, some also noted the "smell of gunpowder". This smell and/or smoke does not occur down range. It occurs at the source and may drift and travel a short distance on the wind.

In the past I have closely studied all the reports on the acoustic evidence trying to determine what weapon type most closely matched the sounds and velocity calculations done and wether I agreed with the expert's conclusions. I still don't have an answer on this subject but I've been leaning towards a subsonic round. On a lark I decided that "badgeman" could have been firing a sabot through his shotgun. I've found sabot examples for a 12 gauge shotgun that could have been used in 1963. But this would be a slow round to load and could not account for the rapid fire noted by some witnesses I consider more reliable (i.e the combat vets).

Gordon Arnold's statement also bothered me, if he's telling the truth, why would a young man from Texas and in the Army not know if a weapon was a shotgun or not?

I also remember, although I don't know where from (someone please help me out with citations) that there had been some discussion that JFK's head wound resembled something caused more likely by a .45 than a jacketed .30x

There's also been some speculation that a .45 round had been picked up in the grass in the area I noted earlier.

So my problem was this I needed a weapon that is:

1) semi automatic or automatic

2) subsonic

3) "shotgun like"

4) possibly a .45

Well, that weapon is a Delisle .45 Carbine.

The Delisle was highly regarded as the best silenced weapon of WW2. It has been documented as having been in the OSS inventory despite only about 130 being produced. It is rumored to still be utilized by some SAS.

Here's a link to it's story: http://www.valkyriearms.com/delisle.pdf

When I first saw this picture I immediately thought of Arnold's comment "big enough to drive a truck through".

Very interesting original thinking.

For the record, I have never believed that Badgeman's shot hit

the president, but probably was a miss that hit the grass.

Jack

[Maarten Coumans]

Very interesting original thinking.

For the record, I have never believed that Badgeman's shot hit

the president, but probably was a miss that hit the grass.

Jack

I agree with you, Jack.

I consider a hit from that (badgeman-) position after 313, with the reduced headmass, result in a bullet-through. That would almost certainly have hit Jackie somewhere.

The doubter is playing up again. If the rifle was silenced, how come Arnold reacted so to it. As I recall he reacted to the noise (shot), and dropped to the ground (described by senator Yarborough). Does not add up with a silencer. IMO.

For your information, the rifle described, except from above, would fit REAAAAAL nice.

Try to describe that to DP. They have a straight-jacket waiting. One less witness to worry about.

Maarten

[Ryan Crowe]

I will say this for all to understand, and make it simple..

Have not really studied or read much of Arnolds story, but let me say this, a bullet whizzing by your head silenced, is not something where you just stand there and not react, its a scary ass thing to have a bullet whizzing by your head, and yes even silenced you will still hear a bullet going by your head.....ask anyone who has been shot at and missed if they ever forget the sound a bullet makes when "whizzing on by"..especially if not being ready for it, its enough to make one touch cotton if ya know what I mean LOL...

I posted a full description on silencers and how they work some time ago if one wants to search for it here.

[Cliff Varnell]

There is evidence of a sound-suppressed shot from the right front circa Z199.

Here's JFK at Z186 in Betzner #3.

[hit enlarge]

http://www.geocities.com/quaneeri4/Betzner_Large.jpg

He sat bolt upright, head turned to the right, right arm waving.

He was last in this posture at Z198.

[hit enlarge]

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z198.jpg

Phil Willis stated that he took his fifth photo in a startle response to a gun shot.

Thanks to John Hunt's correction of Willis #5 to the horizon line, we can

see that JFK was leaning noticably to his left at Z202.

The HSCA made the following analysis:

(quote on)

By Zapruder frame 207, when President Kennedy is seen going behind a sign

that obstructed Zapruder’s view, he appears to be reacting to a severe external

stimulus. This reaction is first indicated in the vicinity of frame 200 of the Zapruder

film. The President’s right hand freezes in the midst of a waving motion, followed

by a rapid leftward movement of his head. There is, therefore, photographic evidence

of a shot striking the President by this time.(HSCA Report and Vol. 6:17)

(quote off)

How does a mere 3 Z-frames (1/6th of a second) allow enough time for

both Phil Willis' startle response and the mechanical operation of the camera?

I'd argue that the shot that startled Phil Willis and made him take his fifth photo was

NOT the same shot that struck JFK in the throat from the right front circa Z199.

The throat shot was sound suppressed.

[Jack White]

Very interesting original thinking.

For the record, I have never believed that Badgeman's shot hit

the president, but probably was a miss that hit the grass.

Jack

I agree with you, Jack.

I consider a hit from that (badgeman-) position after 313, with the reduced headmass, result in a bullet-through. That would almost certainly have hit Jackie somewhere.

The doubter is playing up again. If the rifle was silenced, how come Arnold reacted so to it. As I recall he reacted to the noise (shot), and dropped to the ground (described by senator Yarborough). Does not add up with a silencer. IMO.

For your information, the rifle described, except from above, would fit REAAAAAL nice.

Try to describe that to DP. They have a straight-jacket waiting. One less witness to worry about.

Maarten

Silencer or not, a bullet going thru the air CAN BE HEARD.

If supersonic, it is a loud sonic boom. If subsonic, it is a

whine. When a youth, I sometimes fired my dad's .22 rifle.

The pop of the firing was not very loud. The whine of the

bullet lasted for seconds, ever diminishing.

Jack

[Lee Forman]

Very interesting original thinking.

For the record, I have never believed that Badgeman's shot hit

the president, but probably was a miss that hit the grass.

Jack

I agree with you, Jack.

I consider a hit from that (badgeman-) position after 313, with the reduced headmass, result in a bullet-through. That would almost certainly have hit Jackie somewhere.

The doubter is playing up again. If the rifle was silenced, how come Arnold reacted so to it. As I recall he reacted to the noise (shot), and dropped to the ground (described by senator Yarborough). Does not add up with a silencer. IMO.

For your information, the rifle described, except from above, would fit REAAAAAL nice.

Try to describe that to DP. They have a straight-jacket waiting. One less witness to worry about.

Maarten

Silencer or not, a bullet going thru the air CAN BE HEARD.

If supersonic, it is a loud sonic boom. If subsonic, it is a

whine. When a youth, I sometimes fired my dad's .22 rifle.

The pop of the firing was not very loud. The whine of the

bullet lasted for seconds, ever diminishing.

Jack

Ryan can correct me - I was told that anyone in the line of fire would hear something much louder and different sounding than someone standing to the side or behind of a sonic supressed shot. I was also told something about the SS hearing the sound of the whizzing of shells like the buzzing of bees - but I don't recall having read that anywhere.

- lee

[Ryan Crowe]

Hi Lee,

We will call it down range, when standing down range from rounds being fired, and rounds are being fired at you, or are in the same close area, you will hear a whizzing sound, hard to explain, and believe me you dont want to know lol.

The shooter will always hear the shot as being LESS louder then his target, or anyone who is in the near by vicinity due to the fact that the shooter is ready for it , needless to say, without a silencer, its going to be loud and scare the crap out of someone due to the fact they are not ready for it.

Now for a silenced weapon, there isnt much to hear, the shooter and anyone standing to his side or behind will hear the slight thump, here is a .45 supressed, the target will hear the whizzing sounds, the one and only good thing about hearing the whizzing sound is, your not dead..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6AFd_ojS7o

the whizzing sound is much different, the shooter does not hear this, nor will anyone standing behind him or to his side, as its the bullet passing threw the air is what makes this whizzing sound, silencers work pretty much like a muffler. The results are like a thump, rather then a boom or sharp bang, the suppreser makes the gas expand slowly in the barrel before the gas exits the barrel...

When a bullet comes to that "speed of sound" velocity, it will make a "crack" noise, a tiny sonic boom...When one is down range at a good distance, you will hear the bullet before you hear the actual blast from the muzzle....

I hope this answers your question Lee..

Edited September 19, 2006 by Ryan Crowe

[Chris Newton]

Thanks guys - I'm actually kinda stunned by the quick responses.

I concur with Ryan - down range you will hear a thump as gas escapes the barrel. I'd like to add this one caveat though - unless a round is whizzing by you don't count on hearing anything beyond about 100 meters.

The pdf file I linked to has some interesting results of a test conducted on the final 45 version of the Delisle.

"Firing tests were conducted comparing a Sten MKII, a Sten MKIIS and a Delisle. The results showed the issue Sten was recorded by instruments at 125 dB, while the silencer equipped Sten was fired semi-auto at 89.5 dB. The Delisle Carbine tested at 85.5 dB with the larger 45 ACP round being fired."

There's also an interesting entry concerning it's use by Jedburgh team to do "hits" on field grade Nazi Officers in 1944 (Jedburghs were OSS).

This entry too, reported by journalist Allan Knorrs. "this was not one of those dramatic "get Hitler" plots, but at least two of the silenced Delisles were smuggled into Germany by deep cover courriers to be used by trainned assassins against top level German Officers and Officials in an effort to shorten the war by killing the heads of the government and military".

And this from Werbell, "Merril's boys used them to terrorize and scare the xxxx out of the Japs at night and in ambush."

Oh and thank you Lee - for the inspiration

[Lee Forman]

Oh and thank you Lee - for the inspiration

Thank you sir, for the honor of having even given any thought to the matter.

I originally posted that on jfk research some three plus years ago - it wasn't met with much acceptance. I have to be honest - I devoted many, many hours to the study of every possible automatic available on the market in 1963. I have photos of all of them - however, they were all standard issue stuff. What I was looking for didn't seem to exist. I was assuming that perhaps the reason was because it was a standard field issue weapon jury rigged by WerBell or someone. I was finally settling on the High Standard, because I was seeking a silenced weapon - however, the fact that it was a .22 caliber didn't work. This is the first time I have ever heard of the Delisle - so thank you for that.

A friend and I were laughing only yesterday about the Sten - in the Heydrich assassination it appears to have not been the best weapon of choice - the 'unreliable sten gun' seems to be the catch phrase. Apparently the Czech Republic appears to have been the 'clandestine' suppliers to Israel in the early years?

Elementary research shows that the claim that the Israeli army was better equipped is plainly absurd. Until May 15, the British who controlled Palestine prevented Jews from acquiring armaments and confiscated whatever arms they found. The underground Hagana self- defense force was severely harassed and light arms including the unreliable Sten gun, were secretly manufactured underground. The guns, which Dayan's biographer enumerated, were acquired clandestinely.

Aside from all of the material which still seems to point towards the use of an automatic, I have to say I sat upright at Simkin's recent post on the Cuban that dressed as a priest and had a weapon in a camera case. Now THAT is interesting. I am still wondering about the possible camoflauging of the weapon to resemble a camera. To sit out in plain sight like that is simply not logical.

I'll relate a little story I heard - it has to do with the man on the stairs. The story goes like this: Upon the arrival of the motorcade on Houston, a man [whom the story goes on to say was hispanic looking] and a boy made their way across Elm - from the area of the North Peristyle where all of the other boys are located. This man and boy took up position on the stairs. The boy was used as a decoy of some kind. The man drew some kind of strange weapon, steadied it on his knee in a crouched position, and fired at Kennedy - but there was no sound. IMMEDIATELY after taking his shot(s) the man collected the boy and left the area.

Is that true? I have no idea.

It's certainly one to think about, since IMO the man is clearly there in the original Moorman. And given the absolute absurdity of the Muchmore, where we see the transparent phony defying gravity and turning on his needle toed ballet slippers - it makes sense that someone would want to draw the focus away from the real perp - while also supplying the missing individual for a count of 3 on the stairs, while Emmet Hudson says nothing about this individual - and while this phony is the only one to run away while 200+ people remain in position. Also, given the nature of operations - I can see the shooter handing off his weapon to some peon like a James Files as a lot more logical than trying to escape with it.

Thanks Ryan - edifying as always. I really enjoyed the video. Much appreciated.

- lee

[Lee Forman]

...and frankly...

It bothers me that no one cares to address the issue concerning the three men that are obvious in Lamson's drumscan of the Moorman - behind the fence. They are at odds with the accounts provided by Ed Hoffman and Lee Bowers, and they have more detail than the men seen on the stairs. I am beginning to think that they are indeed phony - as stated by Groden's sidekick - whose name, unfortunately, I can never remember easily.

Remove these OBVIOUS three individuals and you are left without a shooter in this location - aside from Badgeman, whom Jack White believes fired a miss if he fired at all.

- lee

[Chuck Robbins]

One of these issues was brought up a long time ago on jfkresearch.com. Someone had suggested that one of the three men on the steps may have had a submachine gun. I discounted the thought almost immediately and I still don't believe any of those three men were shooters.

Great post.

If it was me, the suggestion was not that one of three visible men in the Moorman was a shooter - the theory was that two of the individuals present were real, and one was added to provide cover and a story for the third man on the steps, who was gradually removed. This third guy - in a squatting position, using his knee to stabilize the weapon - would have been the shooter - and what I was continually looking for was silenced automatic weapons, connections to WerBell, possible covert weapons that would resemble cameras or be camoflauged with a camera mounted on top of the weapon, GSAPs, etc. I remember how I was laughed at when I was initially looking at some kind of silenced greasegun.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...ost&p=24546

Worth adding are the reports of automatic gunfire having been heard - beyond what you have posted - if memory serves James Richards posted those. I had other reasons for looking for an automatic - maybe it's worth running back over again. I guess it's only hearsay that someone in the plaza had an automatic cached in a briefcase? Can't recall where I read that.

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:NXOTE...t=clnk&cd=5

What drew my interest to WerBell was not his color nor his wit; it was his business, his background and his associates. It appeared that Jack Ruby was involved in arms dealing and smuggling. So was Mitch WerBell. A passionate anti-Communist, WerBell has run a series of weapons manufacturing and marketing firms -- principally Military Armament Corporation and its Washington-based parent, Quantum Ordinance Bankers -- which advanced supplied countries and groups around the world with advanced weaponry, including the Ingram M-ll, a hand-held, quiet machine gun. WerBell has been call a "creative genius" for his designs of noise suppressor for automatic weapons and for other "silent-kill" devices. He has also been termed the "principal supplier of the CIA's most sophisticated weapons."

This guy is hiding in plain sight. His only cover is the shade of the live oak. Despite that fact, and the troubling problem of his lack of existence in Muchmore, Nix, Willis photos, etc. - I still like him for the one that delivered the shot to Kennedy's head.

It was also in Sam Pate's stuff where he suggested that Hargis believed that the shooter was located in the storm drain due to the sound of the shot that came from this direction. It was muffled, Sam said, unlike the others. Another reason I thought it may be possible was the sound heard by Sitzman on the alleged coke bottle smashing. One bottle on the wall. Thick glass. No evidence of broken glass on the walk. No recollection by any eye-witness of broken glass in the area. No record of any black couple in that location. I thought that perhaps she had heard the result of supressed fire and the tinkling of shells as they ejected and struck the concrete there.

And on and on and on.

That's a nice looking weapon. Maybe with a special scope it would even qualify for the account provided by the man in the press bus - can't find the reference and I know I posted it - where he has a man making his way up the steps, ducking as if he was being fired upon, carrying what looked like a camera - but not like any camera this news guy had ever seen before.

Still a lot of mystery concerning what transpired in this area - I see no reason to doubt Arnold's story myself either.

- lee

Funny you should mention the man who isn't there.

Years ago I had been adjusting the contrast/brightness and other filters when suddenly,

directly beside that tree, the faint negative image of a man kneeling had come into view.

What I found very interesting at the time was the similarity of this persons receding hairline

and the hairline of the "Oswald" in Mexico.

I have never mentioned this to anyone because I knew I would be jumped on from every

direction for "seeing" a man who wasn't there..

If you have good graphic files of the knoll try adjusting the contrast/brightness etc. until

you have a negative image and look right next to the tree.

I will try to find my picture and pull the image out that I am talking about.

I hope I manage to find the darn thing again. I have gigabytes of JFK related files on my

hard drives.

[Maarten Coumans]

Hi all,

To make clear, I know you can hear a silenced bullet. Trust me. (I got the hell out of dodge. I'd describe it as a bumble-bee)

And from Arnold describtion I understand he was real close. And military trained, so familiar with gunshots (has to be). And I consider his reaction to be natural, if not trained to do so.

But I have seen just one interview with him, and that did not become very clear to me. Some may have seen other interviews, where his words are slightly differend/ more specific. Just to be carefull, and trying not to kill the threat.

This gun fits my findings very much.

Maarten