Larry Hancock, Someone Would Have Talked (2nd edition)

[Larry Hancock]

Robin, that's a very interesting point....clearly there had been some consideration of Sylvia Duran as a target; she was at least

a partially known quantity. And we do know from recent releases that CIA had both electronic and humint sources within

the Cuban embassy. We have no idea of their names though and probably never will. And there were other human recruiting

targets in their embassy - and an ongoing effort to recruit several people it appears.

I will say that if she was a knowing informant its unlikely that the Agency had the Mexican's pick her up and treat her

as they did (unless that was all a cover). One thing that troubles me is this - given the huge importance of the information

which might have been held by both Duran and Alvarado and given the apparent cooperation by Mexican officials....why

leave the two in Mexico, fly down polygraphy specialists and peform an investigation there. I mean potentially either individual

could have held information which would trigger either a Cuban invasion or WWIII? If you were in charge would you not get them

on a US plane, on US soil and under US security during interrogation?

Yet we just left them down there - and conducted commnications by telex and couriers....pretty amazing.

It's just possible we will learn more about the CIA recruiting efforts in the future, its certainly something to keep going

back to the new releases on. What we really need are folks routinely going through the ongoing releases looking for

this type of thing.

-- Regards, Larry

In Appendix C,you write of "recruitment operations in progress against both Veciana's own cousin and Sylvia Duran." I've always wondered if Duran was already a U.S. asset,either witting or unwitting, at the time of Oswald's visit to Mexico City.All of the CIA people that spoke to the HSCA were very wary of talking about the possibilty,and it was established that Win Scott had a "P" file on her.I can see how she might have been"false flag" recruited by the belief she was working for the Mexicans.

[John Simkin]

Larry, have you seen this?

http://www.bloggernews.net/13370

[Larry Hancock]

Thanks for the post John, yes, Simon was good enough to send me a copy and we have not linked his review

and the interview into www.larry-hancock.com

Also, I think all the document links are now working, we have been doing a lot of work on the site recently and

everyone should be able to view some of the new documents that went up on the site in conjunction with the

second edition. I would also encourage everyone to read Edward Martino's background statement which has been

placed on the site.

Ed has also consented so a couple of short interviews and as time permits those will also be posted.

-- A very Happy New Year to you and all the forum members, Larry

Larry, have you seen this?

http://www.bloggernews.net/13370

[Francesca Akhtar]

Hi Larry,

I am very much enjoying your book - have just finished the chapter on DA Phillips. Very interesting! I didn't know he was also working in New Orleans.

I have a question for you about Morales - you said he was linked to Henry Hecksher, so I wondered if there is any evidence that Morales was directly involved with Nagell at any point. I wonder if he was one of the people either monitoring Oswald that Nagell talks about or Nagell himself?

I don't remeber that Nagell ever mentions Morales in TMWKTM but was just wondeing if Nagell would have come into direct contact with him seeing as how they were both in the army as well. i can't remember if Morales would have b een in the army at the same time as Nagell.

Thanks!

[Larry Hancock]

Hi Francesca, actually I doubt that Nagell and Morales ever crossed paths. At least to this point, despite what his tombstone says, there is no direct evidence Morales served in Korea and his time seems pretty well accounted for elsewhere.

I do suspect Nagell crossed paths with Phillips in Mexico City, he may have had no direct contact but given his CI role in MC it is very likely that Phillips would have been aware of anything Nagell was doing in that regard and certainly Nagell's rather strange pseudo defection looks like some sort of security test.

My current thought is that Nagell worked with a variety of Domestic Ops folks, primarily in California as his notebook supports; that he had some CIA contact in MC but that Hecksher pulled him off to play some very deep games that may or may not have been fully reported inside the agency. I do imagine that CIA knew about some of his activities in MC and may have been aware that he had peripheral contact with Oswad - if not before the assassination they certainly knew about it afterwards and it appears that he used that efficently later on to negotiate some sort of quid pro quo with them. Something that would go into a soft file I'm sure....never to see the light of day elsewhere.

-- Larry

-- Larry

Hi Larry,

I am very much enjoying your book - have just finished the chapter on DA Phillips. Very interesting! I didn't know he was also working in New Orleans.

I have a question for you about Morales - you said he was linked to Henry Hecksher, so I wondered if there is any evidence that Morales was directly involved with Nagell at any point. I wonder if he was one of the people either monitoring Oswald that Nagell talks about or Nagell himself?

I don't remeber that Nagell ever mentions Morales in TMWKTM but was just wondeing if Nagell would have come into direct contact with him seeing as how they were both in the army as well. i can't remember if Morales would have b een in the army at the same time as Nagell.

Thanks!

[Francesca Akhtar]

Hi Francesca, actually I doubt that Nagell and Morales ever crossed paths. At least to this point, despite what his tombstone says, there is no direct evidence Morales served in Korea and his time seems pretty well accounted for elsewhere.

I do suspect Nagell crossed paths with Phillips in Mexico City, he may have had no direct contact but given his CI role in MC it is very likely that Phillips would have been aware of anything Nagell was doing in that regard and certainly Nagell's rather strange pseudo defection looks like some sort of security test.

My current thought is that Nagell worked with a variety of Domestic Ops folks, primarily in California as his notebook supports; that he had some CIA contact in MC but that Hecksher pulled him off to play some very deep games that may or may not have been fully reported inside the agency. I do imagine that CIA knew about some of his activities in MC and may have been aware that he had peripheral contact with Oswad - if not before the assassination they certainly knew about it afterwards and it appears that he used that efficently later on to negotiate some sort of quid pro quo with them. Something that would go into a soft file I'm sure....never to see the light of day elsewhere.

-- Larry

Hi Larry,

thanks for your thoughts. I had not thought it likely but just wondered. As you say in the book seems like the 'blurb' written on Morales' tombstone was a cover for his real activities.

You read my mind and answered my next question though about whether or not Nagell would have encountered Phillips in his 'work'.

I always wonder about that story told by Nagell about Oswald meeting with cubans in a square in NO - Im not sure if I'm remebering it correctly but I think Nagell claimed to have a photo of it. If true, wonder who those Cubans might have been. So many interesting things to ponder!

Also, I wanted to ask you where you found a book you refer to in Chapter 10 on DAP by Claudio Accogli called 'Kennedy e il centro-sinistra'. It sounds very interesting and I'd like to get hold of it if I can but an amazon search doesn't turn up anything.

The book is in Italian I take it? Or has it been translated into English too?

Thanks

Edited January 5, 2007 by Francesca Akhtar

[Larry Hancock]

Francesca, I think if you read Nagell really closely on the Cubans in NO, at least one of them was an individual he had known in MC and also in California....exact names is still guesswork of course although if you read closely you find a couple of guesses on that in my book. Clearly Nagell had to have done some favors for these guys on an ongoing basis to get the sort of introductions he got in Miami and in NO. However one of the folks appears to have been local from NO and that may have been what got Nagell turned e.g. someone obviously became suspicious of him and began training him, hence his run for the border. Whether or not he actually "took out" one of them on the way remains pure speculation although he implies somebody did get killed, mistakenly. Whose mistake it was...

As to the Italian book, I had a good deal of correspondance with the author a few years ago and he actually provided the translated passages, as far as I know the book is only available in Italy and in Italian.

-- Larry

Hi Francesca, actually I doubt that Nagell and Morales ever crossed paths. At least to this point, despite what his tombstone says, there is no direct evidence Morales served in Korea and his time seems pretty well accounted for elsewhere.

I do suspect Nagell crossed paths with Phillips in Mexico City, he may have had no direct contact but given his CI role in MC it is very likely that Phillips would have been aware of anything Nagell was doing in that regard and certainly Nagell's rather strange pseudo defection looks like some sort of security test.

My current thought is that Nagell worked with a variety of Domestic Ops folks, primarily in California as his notebook supports; that he had some CIA contact in MC but that Hecksher pulled him off to play some very deep games that may or may not have been fully reported inside the agency. I do imagine that CIA knew about some of his activities in MC and may have been aware that he had peripheral contact with Oswad - if not before the assassination they certainly knew about it afterwards and it appears that he used that efficently later on to negotiate some sort of quid pro quo with them. Something that would go into a soft file I'm sure....never to see the light of day elsewhere.

-- Larry

Hi Larry,

thanks for your thoughts. I had not thought it likely but just wondered. As you say in the book seems like the 'blurb' written on Morales' tombstone was a cover for his real activities.

You read my mind and answered my next question though about whether or not Nagell would have encountered Phillips in his 'work'.

I always wonder about that story told by Nagell about Oswald meeting with cubans in a square in NO - Im not sure if I'm remebering it correctly but I think Nagell claimed to have a photo of it. If true, wonder who those Cubans might have been. So many interesting things to ponder!

Also, I wanted to ask you where you found a book you refer to in Chapter 10 on DAP by Claudio Accogli called 'Kennedy e il centro-sinistra'. It sounds very interesting and I'd like to get hold of it if I can but an amazon search doesn't turn up anything.

The book is in Italian I take it? Or has it been translated into English too?

Thanks

[Francesca Akhtar]

Francesca, I think if you read Nagell really closely on the Cubans in NO, at least one of them was an individual he had known in MC and also in California....exact names is still guesswork of course although if you read closely you find a couple of guesses on that in my book. Clearly Nagell had to have done some favors for these guys on an ongoing basis to get the sort of introductions he got in Miami and in NO. However one of the folks appears to have been local from NO and that may have been what got Nagell turned e.g. someone obviously became suspicious of him and began training him, hence his run for the border. Whether or not he actually "took out" one of them on the way remains pure speculation although he implies somebody did get killed, mistakenly. Whose mistake it was...

As to the Italian book, I had a good deal of correspondance with the author a few years ago and he actually provided the translated passages, as far as I know the book is only available in Italy and in Italian.

-- Larry

Hi Larry.

thaks for that. I'll have to go back and read that bit in the Nagell book. I am just reading the chapter on New Orleans in your book - great stuff! Especially the stuff on Garrison, Shaw et al. I had heard of the Ed Girnus story but not of the cuban called Sanchez Diaz. Looks like an interesting one to follow up on. I had thought that maybe the 'Diaz' listed on the flight plan was maybe Pedro Diaz Lanz but that was just a pure guess. Have you don much research on this Sanchez Diaz?

Thanks for info on the Italian book. I will see if I can get hold of a copy next time I'm in Italy. I have not heard of the author before. Does he write on the assassination or just Kennedy in general?

Btw, if you ever come across any more JFK related stuff in Italian (not sure how much there is out there!) that you need to translate into English, don't hesitate to ask!

[Larry Hancock]

Francesca, nothing more on Sanchez Diaz from me. As in most cases anything I could find is in the book. I'm afraid the chance

for a real investigation of many of these subjects has passed with this much time. I must say though that as I reread the HSCA

report I'm impressed by how many times they chide the FBI for not really following leads...and for putting things aside without

serious investigation. I probably should have mentioned that in the book.

I am investigating some of the sources on the leads a bit further and may add end notes or points on the web site in regard

to them as time permits.

Thanks for the offer but the good news is that with my shift in focus to RFK/MLK I doubt that many of my sources are going

to need translation...grin.

-- Larry

[John Simkin]

I was very interested in reading your account of Henry Hecksher. Did you know that his father worked for Kaiser Wilhelm II? Edward M. Korry, the US Ambassador to Chile, described him as a "Prussian gentleman". Is it possible that he came to the USA as a Nazi spy in 1938. His extreme right-wing views make him a strange refugee from Nazi Germany.

The obituary that you have on Hecksher seems to include a mistake. It says that he was member of the OSS in Berlin in 1946. In fact, the OSS was disbanded by President Harry Truman, on September 20, 1945. I assume in reality he was a member of the Department of War's Secret Intelligence (SI) unit.

According to Joseph Trento (The Secret History of the CIA), Edward M. Korry discovered that Hecksher was working with Patria y Libertad (Fatherland and Liberty). In his confession to the FBI, CIA associate, Michael V. Townley, admitted he worked closely with Patria y Libertad in the assassination of Carlos Prats, Bernardo Leighton and Orlando Letelier.

Do you know what Hecksher got up to after he retired from the CIA? I wonder if he became involved in Ted Shackley's business activities.

[Larry Hancock]

John, I noticed the obit thing but its not uncommon for CIA officers obits to be a bit off the mark, note Morales. I

do cover his career in some detail in Appendix B and my impression is that instead of the OSS he was in the regular Army and

with Army CIC after the war. He went from Army CIC to CIA in Berlin, very similar to Morales actually.

I did run into one reference that speculated that he might have been a deep cover double agent but I don't recall the source

off the top of my head... there would always be the question of whether or not his strong anti-Communist views might

have been a front - if he was deep cover.

We tried to do some checking with his brother who was still living a year or so ago at least but he quickly made it clear

he had no interest in discussing Harry or any of his activities.

-- Larry

I was very interested in reading your account of Henry Hecksher. Did you know that his father worked for Kaiser Wilhelm II? Edward M. Korry, the US Ambassador to Chile, described him as a "Prussian gentleman". Is it possible that he came to the USA as a Nazi spy in 1938. His extreme right-wing views make him a strange refugee from Nazi Germany.

The obituary that you have on Hecksher seems to include a mistake. It says that he was member of the OSS in Berlin in 1946. In fact, the OSS was disbanded by President Harry Truman, on September 20, 1945. I assume in reality he was a member of the Department of War's Secret Intelligence (SI) unit.

According to Joseph Trento (The Secret History of the CIA), Edward M. Korry discovered that Hecksher was working with Patria y Libertad (Fatherland and Liberty). In his confession to the FBI, CIA associate, Michael V. Townley, admitted he worked closely with Patria y Libertad in the assassination of Carlos Prats, Bernardo Leighton and Orlando Letelier.

Do you know what Hecksher got up to after he retired from the CIA? I wonder if he became involved in Ted Shackley's business activities.

[John Simkin]

Two thoughts on Heckscher. First a question and then a little piece of info. 1) is that I thought Nestor Sanchez was Artime's case officer. If I'm mistaken, or if he was his case officer before Heckscher, please clarify. 2) is that Heckscher's exploits were well-known in his time. At one point, he was stationed in a latin American country--was this after Chile?--and the leaders of that country noted that every country Heckscher visitied soon suffered an overthrow. They asked for his replacement. If someone remembers where I read this, please relate the whole story.

[Larry Hancock]

I think Sanchez did function as Artime's actual case officer although I'm now awere of the exact dates.

What is clear though is that in 1963, Hecksher assumed a senior officer role in the AM/WORLD project which

was built around Artime. Whether or not you would consider him a case officer at that point or something else

could be debated, you certainly find his name on a great number of memos dealing with Artime and you find

Jenkins name on a lot of them as well, including routine travel, training and security memos.

I do think Hecksher was well known within the agency in the 50's and 60's but I don't know that he became

a semi-public figure until his assignment to Chile much later. He certainly was assigned to a lot of trouble

spots from Laos to Chile and he had a high profile inside the agency as well as some high level sponsors like

Dulles. AsI relate in Appendix B the ambassador in Laos tried to get him removed with no luck. I think its safe to say

that he was never a favorite with his State Department counterparts.

After his tour in Laos he was assigned to the transborder area down towards the Golden Triangle and there is

no information at all on his role there; I also know of absolutely no details on his assignment to Japan.

-- I think he is a very fertile area for more research....especially with both his Guatemala and SE Asian associations. Larry

Two thoughts on Heckscher. First a question and then a little piece of info. 1) is that I thought Nestor Sanchez was Artime's case officer. If I'm mistaken, or if he was his case officer before Heckscher, please clarify. 2) is that Heckscher's exploits were well-known in his time. At one point, he was stationed in a latin American country--was this after Chile?--and the leaders of that country noted that every country Heckscher visitied soon suffered an overthrow. They asked for his replacement. If someone remembers where I read this, please relate the whole story.

[Francesca Akhtar]

Francesca, nothing more on Sanchez Diaz from me. As in most cases anything I could find is in the book. I'm afraid the chance

for a real investigation of many of these subjects has passed with this much time. I must say though that as I reread the HSCA

report I'm impressed by how many times they chide the FBI for not really following leads...and for putting things aside without

serious investigation. I probably should have mentioned that in the book.

I am investigating some of the sources on the leads a bit further and may add end notes or points on the web site in regard

to them as time permits.

Thanks for the offer but the good news is that with my shift in focus to RFK/MLK I doubt that many of my sources are going

to need translation...grin.

-- Larry

Hi Larry,

I would like to research this Sanchez Diaz further sounds interesting but as you say with the passage of time, these things get more and more difficult. I wish the HSCA had investigated more leads themselves but with someone like Blakey in charge that was never going to happen.....

Do you have any idea of a date for your RFK book yet? I see over here that the film Bobby is going to be released in a few days but I understand it isn't a 'conspiracy' film, but part fictional?

[Francesca Akhtar]

Hi Larry,

on another note, I'm nearing the end of your book and it is great reading. Congratulations on such a well researched book! You make the point that the plot was to portray Oswald as part of a communist conspiracy and the cover up was to portray Oswald as a 'lone nut' and erase any thought in the mind of the public of him acting with others. This is something that is so clear from looking at the evidence, yet is is a point which never occurred to me until you pointed it out! It makes total sense now how the whole thing was put together I don't know how I didn't see this before. That the plot and cover-up were two separate things. I'm reading your chapter on Bobby Baker and Johnson. Do you believe that Johnson was activelyinvolved in the conspiracy? I'm not sure whether I believe he was actively involved in the conspiracy or that he knew something was going to happen but didn't act to stop it. If you believe Wallace was on the 6th floor as I do, then I wonder if Johnson would have known about it?

Edited January 23, 2007 by Francesca Akhtar