the Holster

[Mark Knight]

Just wanted to point out that, in the WC's examination of Oswald's finances, they didn't allow for him spending any money on the holster, the strap, ammunition for either the pistol or the MC, or the clip for the MC...so evidently, the holster and strap--as well as the other items--turned out to be a freebie, if you can believe the WC.

Still makes you wonder where they came from.

[i'm still betting on Montreal...]

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Just wanted to point out that, in the WC's examination of Oswald's finances, they didn't allow for him spending any money on the holster, the strap, ammunition for either the pistol or the MC, or the clip for the MC...so evidently, the holster and strap--as well as the other items--turned out to be a freebie, if you can believe the WC.

Still makes you wonder where they came from.

[i'm still betting on Montreal...]

Mark;

Not unlike the sling/holster strap & holster, somewhere I have information relative to the ONLY location in Dallas which was dealing in the WCC 6.5mm Carcano ammo.

That this was not fully followed (or if it was, it has not been fully reported on), is indicative of much of the manner in which "blinders" were applied in resolving many of the issues surrounding LHO and his acquisition of the weapons in his possession.

For those who are not aware of it, a considerable number of expended 6.5mm Carcano casings were found by various persons and thereafter turned in to the FBI for examination to see if they had been fired from the Carcano found on the sixth floor of the TSDB.

And although, according to FBI documents, none of the casings appeared to have been fired from the TSDB Carcano, it demonstrates that someone around Dallas was shooting a considerable amount of Carcano ammo.

None of which appears to have been followed up on by the FBI, other than some 7.35 casings and the box in which they came in that was found at an abandoned gravel pit.

Lastly, since LHO/the shooter fired from what was virtually a "bench rest" position (book cartons & window sill), there was little usage for a sling in providing stability for a shooting platform.

Therefore, the sling provided another function, and for those familiar, it should be relatively obvious.

[William Kelly]

Just wanted to point out that, in the WC's examination of Oswald's finances, they didn't allow for him spending any money on the holster, the strap, ammunition for either the pistol or the MC, or the clip for the MC...so evidently, the holster and strap--as well as the other items--turned out to be a freebie, if you can believe the WC.

Still makes you wonder where they came from.

[i'm still betting on Montreal...]

Mark;

Not unlike the sling/holster strap & holster, somewhere I have information relative to the ONLY location in Dallas which was dealing in the WCC 6.5mm Carcano ammo.

That this was not fully followed (or if it was, it has not been fully reported on), is indicative of much of the manner in which "blinders" were applied in resolving many of the issues surrounding LHO and his acquisition of the weapons in his possession.

For those who are not aware of it, a considerable number of expended 6.5mm Carcano casings were found by various persons and thereafter turned in to the FBI for examination to see if they had been fired from the Carcano found on the sixth floor of the TSDB.

And although, according to FBI documents, none of the casings appeared to have been fired from the TSDB Carcano, it demonstrates that someone around Dallas was shooting a considerable amount of Carcano ammo.

None of which appears to have been followed up on by the FBI, other than some 7.35 casings and the box in which they came in that was found at an abandoned gravel pit.

Lastly, since LHO/the shooter fired from what was virtually a "bench rest" position (book cartons & window sill), there was little usage for a sling in providing stability for a shooting platform.

Therefore, the sling provided another function, and for those familiar, it should be relatively obvious.

Wait, Wait, Don't tell me - It's so the US Army Air Force sidearm holster could be traced to Curtis LeMay - Right?

BK

[Evan Marshall]

Just wanted to point out that, in the WC's examination of Oswald's finances, they didn't allow for him spending any money on the holster, the strap, ammunition for either the pistol or the MC, or the clip for the MC...so evidently, the holster and strap--as well as the other items--turned out to be a freebie, if you can believe the WC.

Still makes you wonder where they came from.

[i'm still betting on Montreal...]

Mark;

Not unlike the sling/holster strap & holster, somewhere I have information relative to the ONLY location in Dallas which was dealing in the WCC 6.5mm Carcano ammo.

That this was not fully followed (or if it was, it has not been fully reported on), is indicative of much of the manner in which "blinders" were applied in resolving many of the issues surrounding LHO and his acquisition of the weapons in his possession.

For those who are not aware of it, a considerable number of expended 6.5mm Carcano casings were found by various persons and thereafter turned in to the FBI for examination to see if they had been fired from the Carcano found on the sixth floor of the TSDB.

And although, according to FBI documents, none of the casings appeared to have been fired from the TSDB Carcano, it demonstrates that someone around Dallas was shooting a considerable amount of Carcano ammo.

None of which appears to have been followed up on by the FBI, other than some 7.35 casings and the box in which they came in that was found at an abandoned gravel pit.

Lastly, since LHO/the shooter fired from what was virtually a "bench rest" position (book cartons & window sill), there was little usage for a sling in providing stability for a shooting platform.

Therefore, the sling provided another function, and for those familiar, it should be relatively obvious.

Wait, Wait, Don't tell me - It's so the US Army Air Force sidearm holster could be traced to Curtis LeMay - Right?

BK

he was in the service and sometimes things get "liberated" and taken home-the bigger question is why some one who had been in the Marine Corp when such great emphasis was placed on weapons skills, just not steal a quality rifle to do the deed.

Edited November 15, 2006 by Evan Marshall

[Shanet Clark]

Oswald didn't have a holster when he was apprehended, did he?

I thought he had the pistol in his pocket, not holstered........

[John Dolva]

1962

October

Tuesday 09 date application for PO Box 2915

1963

January

Sunday 27 date on magazine ad order for pistol, a request for ammo and holster is written and then crossed out

February

Wednesday 20 Subscription The Worker for one year

March

Monday 11 The Militant issue date

Tuesday 12 post stamp on envelope with order for rifle, stamp date money order for rifle (A. Hidell)

Wednesday 13(4) date on pistol order form (+copy) (A. J. Hidell)

.

.

.

.

.

.

Wednesday 20 railway express receipt for pistol (A. Hidell), railway express brief for pistol (A. J. Hidell)

Wednesday 20 Kleins 'order blank' date for rifle (A. Hidell)

.

.

.

Sunday 24 The Worker issue date

.

.

.

.

.

.

Sunday 31 backyard photo's are supposedly taken at this date showing the holster and rifle and rope/sling and news papers (with some wrapping paper on the ground by the gate)

April

Tuesday 10 "The Walker incident"

May

Monday 14 PO Box 2915 closed

I haven't found a record of when the rifle or the pistol were picked up.

Also is the Terminal Annex also the rail package depot? Were the two picked up at the same counter?

The holster is next mentioned when found in Lee's room?

Edited November 16, 2006 by John Dolva

[Michael Hogan]

the bigger question is why some one who had been in the Marine Corp when such great emphasis was placed on weapons skills, just not steal a quality rifle to do the deed.

Forty years ago, researchers wondered the same thing about Oswald's choice of weapon. A corollary

question is why would he have used a rifle that could be traced to him?

The prevailing answers back in the day by WR apologists was that Oswald was poor and stupid.

Edited November 16, 2006 by Michael Hogan

[William Kelly]

Just wanted to point out that, in the WC's examination of Oswald's finances, they didn't allow for him spending any money on the holster, the strap, ammunition for either the pistol or the MC, or the clip for the MC...so evidently, the holster and strap--as well as the other items--turned out to be a freebie, if you can believe the WC. Still makes you wonder where they came from.

[i'm still betting on Montreal...]

Mark; Not unlike the sling/holster strap & holster, somewhere I have information relative to the ONLY location in Dallas which was dealing in the WCC 6.5mm Carcano ammo.

.....Lastly, since LHO/the shooter fired from what was virtually a "bench rest" position (book cartons & window sill), there was little usage for a sling in providing stability for a shooting platform.

Therefore, the sling provided another function, and for those familiar, it should be relatively obvious.

MARK, WHY DO YOU SAY YOU'RE BETTING ON MONTREAL AS THE SOURCE?

AND THP, WHAT IS THE OBVIOUS UTILITY OF THE SLING, IF NOT FOR HOLDING OR STABILITY?

I THINK THE SLING, THE HOLSTER, THE SCOPE, THE CLIP, THE BULLETS AND THE SHELLS ARE EXTREMELY IMPORTANT EVIDENCE, THE ORIGINS OF WHICH CAN AND SHOULD BE DETERMINED WITH CERTAINTY.

BK

Edited November 16, 2006 by William Kelly

[Guest John Gillespie]

Prior knowledge usually relates to prior intent.

PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT

A call has been made to the Department of Homeland Security regarding each of us here on the forum since what we know from our study of this murder bodes ill for a large segment of humankind.

Would each of you please enter your home and work addresses below to make it easier for them to be rounded up en masse?

All Secret Service, ATF, DEA, FBI, CIA and other federal, state and local agents and police, especially those acting under cover, will be decommissioned so to no longer pose as threats to society based on their prior knowledge.

I, on the other hand, intend to be your lawyer (having some prior knowledge of the law), so please remit fees to the address below.

Thank you!

_________________________

Duke,

My loathing for 'net acronyms notwithstanding, allow me to add an emphatic LOL - which is exactly what your posting elicited from this address.

The late, great Claude Rains comes to mind:

"Round up the usual suspects."

"We're trying to decide whether he hanged himself in his cell or he died trying to escape."

Yeah Duke,

JG

Edited November 16, 2006 by John Gillespie

[Shanet Clark]

FEMA couldn't round up a hand of bridge.

[Thomas Graves]

Would each of you please enter your home and work addresses below to make it easier for them to be rounded up en masse?

_________________________

To make it easier for them to be rounded up; to make it easier for y'all to be rounded up; or to make it easier for us'ns to be rounded up?

--Thomas

_________________________

[John Dolva]

I agree William. If the answer could be found, while seemingly trivial at this point to some, it could answer questions.

I did a timeline on the other page. It seems to inidicate intent.

Further on this::

Stepping back slightly and using Walker as a focus:

1962

September

Sunday 30 - Executive Order 11053*

October

Monday 01 - Maj. Gen.(ret.) E. A. Walker arrested for insurrection.^

Tuesday 09 date application for PO Box 2915

1963

January

Sunday 27 date on magazine ad order for pistol, a request for ammo and holster is written and then crossed out

February

Wednesday 20 Subscription The Worker for one year

March

Monday 11 The Militant issue date

Tuesday 12 post stamp on envelope with order for rifle, stamp date money order for rifle (A. Hidell)

Wednesday 13(4) date on pistol order form (+copy) (A. J. Hidell)

.

.

.

.

.

.

Wednesday 20 railway express receipt for pistol (A. Hidell), railway express brief for pistol (A. J. Hidell)

Wednesday 20 Kleins 'order blank' date for rifle (A. Hidell)

.

.

.

Sunday 24 The Worker issue date

.

.

.

.

.

.

Sunday 31 backyard photo's are supposedly taken at this date showing the holster and rifle and rope/sling and news papers (with some wrapping paper on the ground by the gate)

April

Tuesday 10 "The Walker incident"

May

Monday 14 PO Box 2915 closed

___________________________

* http://www.lib.umich.edu/govdocs/jfkeo/exodates.htm

^ (NY times) OXFORD, Miss., Oct. 1 ... Tonight a force approaching 5,000 soldiers and guardsmen, along with the Federal marshals, maintained an uneasy peace in this town of 6,500 in the northern Mississippi hills....The troops seized approximately 200 persons. ... Among those arrested was former Maj. Gen. Edwin A. Walker, who resigned his commission after having been reprimanded for his ultra-right-wing political activity. He was charged with insurrection.

I haven't found a record of when the rifle or the pistol were picked up.

Also is the Terminal Annex also the rail package depot? Were the two picked up at the same counter?

The holster is next mentioned when found in Lee's room?

[John Dolva]

Lee was arrested just over an hour after the Plaza shooting.

The pistol cartridges were found in his pockets while waiting outside the lineup room over two and a half hours later!

During the interview "Oswald requested that Captain Fritz remove the cuffs from him, it being noted that Oswald was handcuffed with his hands behind him. Captain Fritz had one of his detectives remove the handcuffs and handcuff Oswald with his hands in front of him."

So, after shooting Tippit and until being searched (hmmm... didn't they search him in the squad car? at the theatre?) he had ample opportunity to ditch the cartridges. Isn't it normal practice to search/empty pockets right at the start of an arrest? Or did they need to make sure that the right cartridges were found before finding them?

[Mark Knight]

Just wanted to point out that, in the WC's examination of Oswald's finances, they didn't allow for him spending any money on the holster, the strap, ammunition for either the pistol or the MC, or the clip for the MC...so evidently, the holster and strap--as well as the other items--turned out to be a freebie, if you can believe the WC. Still makes you wonder where they came from.

[i'm still betting on Montreal...]

Mark; Not unlike the sling/holster strap & holster, somewhere I have information relative to the ONLY location in Dallas which was dealing in the WCC 6.5mm Carcano ammo.

.....Lastly, since LHO/the shooter fired from what was virtually a "bench rest" position (book cartons & window sill), there was little usage for a sling in providing stability for a shooting platform.

Therefore, the sling provided another function, and for those familiar, it should be relatively obvious.

MARK, WHY DO YOU SAY YOU'RE BETTING ON MONTREAL AS THE SOURCE?

AND THP, WHAT IS THE OBVIOUS UTILITY OF THE SLING, IF NOT FOR HOLDING OR STABILITY?

I THINK THE SLING, THE HOLSTER, THE SCOPE, THE CLIP, THE BULLETS AND THE SHELLS ARE EXTREMELY IMPORTANT EVIDENCE, THE ORIGINS OF WHICH CAN AND SHOULD BE DETERMINED WITH CERTAINTY.

BK

Bill, I tend to believe that the Klein's Sporting Goods evidence was manufactured...and according to CE2562, I also found it curious that there was so much mention made of Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods in Montreal and their handling of "parts" Carcanos, but no serial number records could be found...and the company which was in business in 1963 was out of business in early '64 and no records could be obtained from what was a going concern just a few short months earlier...and then follow the dots regarding Oswald's purchase of the pistol, through Seaport Traders...back to Empire Wholesale Sporting goods in Montreal!

Interesting coincidence...especially in light of the thread here in which folks are trying to determine whether Oswald himself was in Montreal in 1963. [i'm guessing if he was, he picked the guns up there himself...cheaper that way, doncha know...]

I'm just going with the odds that (1) the pistol originated in Montreal; and (2) perhaps the WC is wrong about C2766, and the MC also originated in Montreal; and (3) Ozzie himself may have been in Montreal...so the odds are suddenly better that perhaps the holster and strap were picked up on the same "shopping trip."

[John Dolva]

Just wanted to point out that, in the WC's examination of Oswald's finances, they didn't allow for him spending any money on the holster, the strap, ammunition for either the pistol or the MC, or the clip for the MC...so evidently, the holster and strap--as well as the other items--turned out to be a freebie, if you can believe the WC. Still makes you wonder where they came from.

[i'm still betting on Montreal...]

Mark; Not unlike the sling/holster strap & holster, somewhere I have information relative to the ONLY location in Dallas which was dealing in the WCC 6.5mm Carcano ammo.

.....Lastly, since LHO/the shooter fired from what was virtually a "bench rest" position (book cartons & window sill), there was little usage for a sling in providing stability for a shooting platform.

Therefore, the sling provided another function, and for those familiar, it should be relatively obvious.

MARK, WHY DO YOU SAY YOU'RE BETTING ON MONTREAL AS THE SOURCE?

AND THP, WHAT IS THE OBVIOUS UTILITY OF THE SLING, IF NOT FOR HOLDING OR STABILITY?

I THINK THE SLING, THE HOLSTER, THE SCOPE, THE CLIP, THE BULLETS AND THE SHELLS ARE EXTREMELY IMPORTANT EVIDENCE, THE ORIGINS OF WHICH CAN AND SHOULD BE DETERMINED WITH CERTAINTY.

BK

Bill, I tend to believe that the Klein's Sporting Goods evidence was manufactured...and according to CE2562, I also found it curious that there was so much mention made of Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods in Montreal and their handling of "parts" Carcanos, but no serial number records could be found...and the company which was in business in 1963 was out of business in early '64 and no records could be obtained from what was a going concern just a few short months earlier...and then follow the dots regarding Oswald's purchase of the pistol, through Seaport Traders...back to Empire Wholesale Sporting goods in Montreal!

Interesting coincidence...especially in light of the thread here in which folks are trying to determine whether Oswald himself was in Montreal in 1963. [i'm guessing if he was, he picked the guns up there himself...cheaper that way, doncha know...]

I'm just going with the odds that (1) the pistol originated in Montreal; and (2) perhaps the WC is wrong about C2766, and the MC also originated in Montreal; and (3) Ozzie himself may have been in Montreal...so the odds are suddenly better that perhaps the holster and strap were picked up on the same "shopping trip."

Curious that on this and another thread yesterday (holmes) people post and the post is not registered or 'bumped'. I had no idea Mark had posted until going to post. What mechanism in the forum software allows this 'bug'? Have people noticed other instances of this sort of thing? I know it's happened in the past and no upgrade or fix has as yet dealt with it. Perhaps it's a bandwidth, queing issue?

__________________

This part is quite speculative, though not impossible. To illustrate a means of switching guns. If nothing else it's evidence of how convoluted my brain function is.

The police keep what are called 'drop guns'. These are free floaters that they use to cover up their intentional killings. They place them, usually, under a victim. In one instance in NO three 'drop guns' were found under one victim. The police photographer noticed this diligence and made them take back two before he took his photos.

In the assassination we have two identical .38 S. W. snubnose revolvers. One is supposedly ordered from Seaport Traders by A J Hidell. The other is supplied to a army depot. The army depot has no record of it. This is the false drop gun. The gun that Lee actually ordered was with an order form that initially had LH Oswald on it. Someone obliterated this by overwriting with A J Hidell. This does two things. It shows a deceitful intent by Oswald. Was Oswald so idiotic that he thought that he could use his PO Box and an alias and thereby somehow dissociate himself from the pistol? Maybe he was drunk when he filled the order. Whatever, it's a recurring stupidity om his part. It also means that when the postal item reaches the sorting room it hangs in limbo. In other words its dispensation is decided higher up on the food chain. It's in limbo and now the false drop gun is swapped for the one ordered in good faith by Lee. The label is switched to match Lees expectations. Naturally there is no receipt showing Lee picked up the gun because it would show L H Oswald picked it up and not A J Hidell.

So, what Lee receives is what he expects. Meanwhile the gun that was sent to him goes underground.

(image)

This is the gun then used to kill Tippit. There is some confusion about the gun under Tippit so it goes out of the loop while that is cleared up. Once all is ready Lee's pistol disappears into a bag which is dropped and found a day later by a person named Willie Flat about whom nothing except the name is known. Meanwhile, unbeknownst to Lee, he now has (apparently) been in possession of the gun that shot Tippit. Matching bullets are 'found' in Lee's pocket well after he has been arrested, while waiting to be ID'd by witnesses to the Tippit killing. Naturally neither the gun nor bullets have his finger prints and similarly nothing is known about gun2. It has disappeared, and only vaguely known about a considerable time later. The gun Lee ordered is the drop gun. The false drop gun, never used, is out of the loop once more.

This is an idea, nothing more. I'm fully aware that this is simply speculative. However these kinds of speculations can be useful. It provides a skeleton on which to hang the known facts. So far all the bits to demolish it are missing. Where one may expect them to be there's nothing. For example: the only indication that the pistol was picked up is a slip of paper which has no signature or time of payment on it. It is a most useless piece of evidence to say that Oswald picked it up.

___________________

Now back to the holster. Between the time that Lee filled the order form and mailed it which was how long? is it known? Let's say he sticks to his apparent pattern of doing things on the weekend and early in the week. He fills the form on Sunday and mails it on Monday. Sometime during that time he becomes aware of a preferable means of getting the holster. Did he have help in this? Does the pages from which he got the ad from have an as yet unexplored source. Was it ever determined which magazine that ad came from? I've read that the WC couldn't determine it. Has anyone done so since?