JFK x-ray for Cliff Varnell

[Cliff Varnell]

I find it hard to believe that anyone these days, with the amount of information out there, would STILL believe in the SBT.

RJS

Excellent cite of O'Connor's description of the wound as being 3 inches down

from C7 -- matches the consensus testimony, the contemporaneous

documents, the holes in the clothes, and the Dealey Plaza photos that show

JFK's jacket dropping an inch right before he was shot.

I know why LNers insist on a C7/T1 back wound -- they couldn't

be LNers otherwise -- by why a CT would buy into it mystifies me.

Edited November 26, 2006 by Cliff Varnell

[Cliff Varnell]

In the Eye Of History

William Matson Law

Interview with James Sibert

Sibert: Well I - that single bullet theory - when they had me come up to the AARB deposition there at College Park, I said, "Well before I come up there, I want you to know one thing. I'm not an advocate of the single-bullet theory." I said, "I don't believe it because I stood there two foot from where that bullet wound was in the back, the one that they eventually moved up to the base of the neck. I was there when Boswell made his face sheet and located that wound exactly as we described it in the FD 302." And I said, "Furthermore, when they examined the clothing after it got into the Bureau, those bullet holes in the shirt and the coat were down 5 inches there. So there is no way that bullet could have gone that low then rise up and come out the front of the neck, zigzag and hit Connally and then end up pristine on a stretcher over there in Dallas."

Law: You don't believe in the single bullet theory. Period.

Sibert: There is no way I will swallow that. They can't put enough sugar on it for me to bite it. That bullet was too low in the back.

And from Paul O'Connor in the same book:

O’Connor: When we started an autopsy, the first thing we always did…was to weigh and measure the body. We’d check for any scars, contusions, any abnormalities, and so on. But in this case, we didn’t turn the body over to look at the back while we were doing that. Finally we turned the body over, and there was a bullet wound—an entrance wound—in his back, on the right side of his spinal column. To emphasize where it was in proximity to the rest of his body: if you bend your neck down and feel back, you feel a lump and that’s the seventh cervical vertebra. This bullet wound was about 3 inches down and an inch or two to the right of the seventh cervical vertebra. I remember there was a big gush of surprise that nobody actually thought about turning him over right away, you know after we had done our initial investigation of the president’s body. Dr Humes took his finger and poked it in the hole---the bullet wound hole, the entrance wound hole---and said it didn’t go anywhere. There was a very big argument, a lot of consternation, that he shouldn’t have stuck his finger in the hole.

Let's add this graphic, detailed account of autopsy attendee James Curtis Jenkins:

(quote on)

I remember looking inside the chest cavity and I could

see the probe...through the pleura [the lining of the chest

cavity]...You could actually see where it was making an

indentation...where it was pushing the skin up...There was

no entry into the chest cavity...it would have been no way

that that could have exited in the front because it was then

low in the chest cavity...somewhere around the junction of

the descending aorta [the main artery carrying blood from

the heart] or the bronchus in the lungs.

(quote off)

From BEST EVIDENCE.

[Cliff Varnell]

Here is the x-ray Cliff. I see nothing at T3

What did they say at the autopsy? The wound was shallow.

You know and I know that Drs.Humes,Boswell, and Finck were incompetent fools.

Humes, Boswell and Richard Lipsey are the only people to describe

the back wound above T3. Humes came up with 3 different locations

himself: just above the upper margin of the scapula (around T2), 14cm

below the mastoid process (C7/T1), and in the Rydberg drawing the

back wound was around C6.

But the bullet holes in the clothes are 4" below the bottom of

the collars, well below the base of the neck.

The Dealey Plaza photos clearly show the jacket dropped.

That bullet travelled through strap muscles and those muscles closed back up after the bullet passed. They kept probing for a bullet; they wanted a bullet.

And they found no exit. Graphic descriptions of the low, non-transiting back wound

are cited elsewhere on this thread .

Well, there was no bullet to be found! It exited the throat, and they didn't know that until the following day. You want me to believe that a bullet travelling 1,700-1,800 fps is going to leave a shallow entry wound in the back!

That's why we can eliminate a round travelling 1700-1800 fps.

Never happened. Listen to the folks who saw the back and throat

wounds and the facts of the case will point to the perps, imo.

[John Dolva]

???

Edited November 26, 2006 by John Dolva

[Guest Richard Bittikofer]

Here is the x-ray Cliff. I see nothing at T3

What did they say at the autopsy? The wound was shallow.

You know and I know that Drs.Humes,Boswell, and Finck were incompetent fools.

Humes, Boswell and Richard Lipsey are the only people to describe

the back wound above T3. Humes came up with 3 different locations

himself: just above the upper margin of the scapula (around T2), 14cm

below the mastoid process (C7/T1), and in the Rydberg drawing the

back wound was around C6.

But the bullet holes in the clothes are 4" below the bottom of

the collars, well below the base of the neck.

The Dealey Plaza photos clearly show the jacket dropped.

That bullet travelled through strap muscles and those muscles closed back up after the bullet passed. They kept probing for a bullet; they wanted a bullet.

And they found no exit. Graphic descriptions of the low, non-transiting back wound

are cited elsewhere on this thread .

Well, there was no bullet to be found! It exited the throat, and they didn't know that until the following day. You want me to believe that a bullet travelling 1,700-1,800 fps is going to leave a shallow entry wound in the back!

That's why we can eliminate a round travelling 1700-1800 fps.

Never happened. Listen to the folks who saw the back and throat

wounds and the facts of the case will point to the perps, imo.

Cliff,why is the entry wound in JBC back elongated and the same length as 399? The entry wound is not circular it is Elongated! The WC got it right.

[Cliff Varnell]

Here is the x-ray Cliff. I see nothing at T3

What did they say at the autopsy? The wound was shallow.

You know and I know that Drs.Humes,Boswell, and Finck were incompetent fools.

Humes, Boswell and Richard Lipsey are the only people to describe

the back wound above T3. Humes came up with 3 different locations

himself: just above the upper margin of the scapula (around T2), 14cm

below the mastoid process (C7/T1), and in the Rydberg drawing the

back wound was around C6.

But the bullet holes in the clothes are 4" below the bottom of

the collars, well below the base of the neck.

The Dealey Plaza photos clearly show the jacket dropped.

That bullet travelled through strap muscles and those muscles closed back up after the bullet passed. They kept probing for a bullet; they wanted a bullet.

And they found no exit. Graphic descriptions of the low, non-transiting back wound

are cited elsewhere on this thread .

Well, there was no bullet to be found! It exited the throat, and they didn't know that until the following day. You want me to believe that a bullet travelling 1,700-1,800 fps is going to leave a shallow entry wound in the back!

That's why we can eliminate a round travelling 1700-1800 fps.

Never happened. Listen to the folks who saw the back and throat

wounds and the facts of the case will point to the perps, imo.

Cliff,why is the entry wound in JBC back elongated and the same length as 399? The entry wound is not circular it is Elongated! The WC got it right.

Richard, JFK's back wound was oval, as well, 7mm x 4mm.

If JBC's back wound was oval because the bullet hit something first, what

did the bullet that struck JFK hit first?

...

95% of the first day witness testimony is gold.

95% of the photographic evidence is gold.

Follow the evidence to a conclusion, not the reverse.

[ADD]

There seems to be one instance where the photographic evidence and the

consensus witness statements conflict: the movement of the limosine in the

Zap.

I venture no explanation for this discrepency.

[Guest Richard Bittikofer]

Here is the x-ray Cliff. I see nothing at T3

What did they say at the autopsy? The wound was shallow.

You know and I know that Drs.Humes,Boswell, and Finck were incompetent fools.

Humes, Boswell and Richard Lipsey are the only people to describe

the back wound above T3. Humes came up with 3 different locations

himself: just above the upper margin of the scapula (around T2), 14cm

below the mastoid process (C7/T1), and in the Rydberg drawing the

back wound was around C6.

But the bullet holes in the clothes are 4" below the bottom of

the collars, well below the base of the neck.

The Dealey Plaza photos clearly show the jacket dropped.

That bullet travelled through strap muscles and those muscles closed back up after the bullet passed. They kept probing for a bullet; they wanted a bullet.

And they found no exit. Graphic descriptions of the low, non-transiting back wound

are cited elsewhere on this thread .

Well, there was no bullet to be found! It exited the throat, and they didn't know that until the following day. You want me to believe that a bullet travelling 1,700-1,800 fps is going to leave a shallow entry wound in the back!

That's why we can eliminate a round travelling 1700-1800 fps.

Never happened. Listen to the folks who saw the back and throat

wounds and the facts of the case will point to the perps, imo.

Cliff,why is the entry wound in JBC back elongated and the same length as 399? The entry wound is not circular it is Elongated! The WC got it right.

Richard, JFK's back wound was oval, as well, 7mm x 4mm.

If JBC's back wound was oval because the bullet hit something first, what

did the bullet that struck JFK hit first?

...

95% of the first day witness testimony is gold.

95% of the photographic evidence is gold.

Follow the evidence to a conclusion, not the reverse.

[ADD]

There seems to be one instance where the photographic evidence and the

consensus witness statements conflict: the movement of the limosine in the

Zap.

I venture no explanation for this discrepency.

Cliff, you cannot trust the Z-FIlm.

[Cliff Varnell]

Here is the x-ray Cliff. I see nothing at T3

What did they say at the autopsy? The wound was shallow.

You know and I know that Drs.Humes,Boswell, and Finck were incompetent fools.

Humes, Boswell and Richard Lipsey are the only people to describe

the back wound above T3. Humes came up with 3 different locations

himself: just above the upper margin of the scapula (around T2), 14cm

below the mastoid process (C7/T1), and in the Rydberg drawing the

back wound was around C6.

But the bullet holes in the clothes are 4" below the bottom of

the collars, well below the base of the neck.

The Dealey Plaza photos clearly show the jacket dropped.

That bullet travelled through strap muscles and those muscles closed back up after the bullet passed. They kept probing for a bullet; they wanted a bullet.

And they found no exit. Graphic descriptions of the low, non-transiting back wound

are cited elsewhere on this thread .

Well, there was no bullet to be found! It exited the throat, and they didn't know that until the following day. You want me to believe that a bullet travelling 1,700-1,800 fps is going to leave a shallow entry wound in the back!

That's why we can eliminate a round travelling 1700-1800 fps.

Never happened. Listen to the folks who saw the back and throat

wounds and the facts of the case will point to the perps, imo.

Cliff,why is the entry wound in JBC back elongated and the same length as 399? The entry wound is not circular it is Elongated! The WC got it right.

Richard, JFK's back wound was oval, as well, 7mm x 4mm.

If JBC's back wound was oval because the bullet hit something first, what

did the bullet that struck JFK hit first?

...

95% of the first day witness testimony is gold.

95% of the photographic evidence is gold.

Follow the evidence to a conclusion, not the reverse.

[ADD]

There seems to be one instance where the photographic evidence and the

consensus witness statements conflict: the movement of the limosine in the

Zap.

I venture no explanation for this discrepency.

Cliff, you cannot trust the Z-FIlm.

I think it's okay thru Z227.

That's the only part of it I cite in my analysis.

After that...I prefer to stay out of that black hole...

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Here is the x-ray Cliff. I see nothing at T3

What did they say at the autopsy? The wound was shallow.

You know and I know that Drs.Humes,Boswell, and Finck were incompetent fools.

Humes, Boswell and Richard Lipsey are the only people to describe

the back wound above T3. Humes came up with 3 different locations

himself: just above the upper margin of the scapula (around T2), 14cm

below the mastoid process (C7/T1), and in the Rydberg drawing the

back wound was around C6.

But the bullet holes in the clothes are 4" below the bottom of

the collars, well below the base of the neck.

The Dealey Plaza photos clearly show the jacket dropped.

That bullet travelled through strap muscles and those muscles closed back up after the bullet passed. They kept probing for a bullet; they wanted a bullet.

And they found no exit. Graphic descriptions of the low, non-transiting back wound

are cited elsewhere on this thread .

Well, there was no bullet to be found! It exited the throat, and they didn't know that until the following day. You want me to believe that a bullet travelling 1,700-1,800 fps is going to leave a shallow entry wound in the back!

That's why we can eliminate a round travelling 1700-1800 fps.

Never happened. Listen to the folks who saw the back and throat

wounds and the facts of the case will point to the perps, imo.

Cliff,why is the entry wound in JBC back elongated and the same length as 399? The entry wound is not circular it is Elongated! The WC got it right.

Richard;

As the least likely one on this site to support any of the multiple assassin and body kidnapping scenario's, rest assured that the WC SBT is a complete mis-direction of the factual aspects of the assassination.

Now!

In reagrds to the back wound:

A. As fired on a downward angle, the entry wound, under all known standards, should have been elongated VERTICALLY.

It WAS NOT!

The entry was 4mm in height (vertical dimension) and it was 7mm in width (horizontal dimension).

Which happens to constitute "Red Flag on playing field!"

Secondly, the nose of CE399 carries virtually ZERO deformity other than some slight flattening and some circular abrasions to the copper jacket. (removed section omitted as it is an after the fact event)

Therefore, the bullet nose measured a circular 6.5mm.

Lastly, the base of the bullet measured exactly 4mm X 7mm, which by it's very nature, should tell most persons something.

And that does not even include the other factual evidence.

I, without any doubt, represent the most "Non-Conspiratorial" poster on this forum. Nevertheless, I must state as an absolute fact, that the WC SBT theory of CE399 is an absolute and intentional lie.

But, there was still only a single shooter!

[Guest Richard Bittikofer]

Here is the x-ray Cliff. I see nothing at T3

What did they say at the autopsy? The wound was shallow.

You know and I know that Drs.Humes,Boswell, and Finck were incompetent fools.

Humes, Boswell and Richard Lipsey are the only people to describe

the back wound above T3. Humes came up with 3 different locations

himself: just above the upper margin of the scapula (around T2), 14cm

below the mastoid process (C7/T1), and in the Rydberg drawing the

back wound was around C6.

But the bullet holes in the clothes are 4" below the bottom of

the collars, well below the base of the neck.

The Dealey Plaza photos clearly show the jacket dropped.

That bullet travelled through strap muscles and those muscles closed back up after the bullet passed. They kept probing for a bullet; they wanted a bullet.

And they found no exit. Graphic descriptions of the low, non-transiting back wound

are cited elsewhere on this thread .

Well, there was no bullet to be found! It exited the throat, and they didn't know that until the following day. You want me to believe that a bullet travelling 1,700-1,800 fps is going to leave a shallow entry wound in the back!

That's why we can eliminate a round travelling 1700-1800 fps.

Never happened. Listen to the folks who saw the back and throat

wounds and the facts of the case will point to the perps, imo.

Cliff,why is the entry wound in JBC back elongated and the same length as 399? The entry wound is not circular it is Elongated! The WC got it right.

Richard;

As the least likely one on this site to support any of the multiple assassin and body kidnapping scenario's, rest assured that the WC SBT is a complete mis-direction of the factual aspects of the assassination.

Now!

In reagrds to the back wound:

A. As fired on a downward angle, the entry wound, under all known standards, should have been elongated VERTICALLY.

It WAS NOT!

The entry was 4mm in height (vertical dimension) and it was 7mm in width (horizontal dimension).

Which happens to constitute "Red Flag on playing field!"

Secondly, the nose of CE399 carries virtually ZERO deformity other than some slight flattening and some circular abrasions to the copper jacket. (removed section omitted as it is an after the fact event)

Therefore, the bullet nose measured a circular 6.5mm.

Lastly, the base of the bullet measured exactly 4mm X 7mm, which by it's very nature, should tell most persons something.

And that does not even include the other factual evidence.

I, without any doubt, represent the most "Non-Conspiratorial" poster on this forum. Nevertheless, I must state as an absolute fact, that the WC SBT theory of CE399 is an absolute and intentional lie.

But, there was still only a single shooter!

Tom,you are advocating that JBC was struck by a separate bullet,ok. I have JFK in the back seat with two wounds;back and throat.One shooter (as I also believe) the bullet that entered the back(JFK) had to exit the throat. If it didn't the go on to hit JBC, where did it go? Did the knot in JFK's tie deflect it out of the limo? Did it go on to hit the chrome strip above the windshield? With JBC being hit by a separate bullet,this is what we have now-----1st shot misses..2nd shot hits JFK....3rd shot hits JBC..4th shot Jfk headshot...5th shot grassy knoll per 1979 HSCA final report.Disreguard knoll shot, that leaves us with four shots. One shooter,not enough time to get four shots off. Was there no missed shot or were JFK&JBC hit by the same shot? If in fact there was a missed shot,and JBC was indeed hit by a separate shot-what do we have -a case for conspiracy. Edited November 26, 2006 by Richard Bittikofer

[Frank Agbat]

Richard,

Thomas has recently outlined his scenario and shot timings in a thread entitled "Conclusion"

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=8560

[Guest Richard Bittikofer]

Richard,

Thomas has recently outlined his scenario and shot timings in a thread entitled "Conclusion"

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=8560

Appreciate that Frank,will check it out

[Guest Richard Bittikofer]

Frank,I have read Tom's thread you directed me to. Whew! I am going to need a few days to digest this one.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Here is the x-ray Cliff. I see nothing at T3

What did they say at the autopsy? The wound was shallow.

You know and I know that Drs.Humes,Boswell, and Finck were incompetent fools.

Humes, Boswell and Richard Lipsey are the only people to describe

the back wound above T3. Humes came up with 3 different locations

himself: just above the upper margin of the scapula (around T2), 14cm

below the mastoid process (C7/T1), and in the Rydberg drawing the

back wound was around C6.

But the bullet holes in the clothes are 4" below the bottom of

the collars, well below the base of the neck.

The Dealey Plaza photos clearly show the jacket dropped.

That bullet travelled through strap muscles and those muscles closed back up after the bullet passed. They kept probing for a bullet; they wanted a bullet.

And they found no exit. Graphic descriptions of the low, non-transiting back wound

are cited elsewhere on this thread .

Well, there was no bullet to be found! It exited the throat, and they didn't know that until the following day. You want me to believe that a bullet travelling 1,700-1,800 fps is going to leave a shallow entry wound in the back!

That's why we can eliminate a round travelling 1700-1800 fps.

Never happened. Listen to the folks who saw the back and throat

wounds and the facts of the case will point to the perps, imo.

Cliff,why is the entry wound in JBC back elongated and the same length as 399? The entry wound is not circular it is Elongated! The WC got it right.

Richard;

As the least likely one on this site to support any of the multiple assassin and body kidnapping scenario's, rest assured that the WC SBT is a complete mis-direction of the factual aspects of the assassination.

Now!

In reagrds to the back wound:

A. As fired on a downward angle, the entry wound, under all known standards, should have been elongated VERTICALLY.

It WAS NOT!

The entry was 4mm in height (vertical dimension) and it was 7mm in width (horizontal dimension).

Which happens to constitute "Red Flag on playing field!"

Secondly, the nose of CE399 carries virtually ZERO deformity other than some slight flattening and some circular abrasions to the copper jacket. (removed section omitted as it is an after the fact event)

Therefore, the bullet nose measured a circular 6.5mm.

Lastly, the base of the bullet measured exactly 4mm X 7mm, which by it's very nature, should tell most persons something.

And that does not even include the other factual evidence.

I, without any doubt, represent the most "Non-Conspiratorial" poster on this forum. Nevertheless, I must state as an absolute fact, that the WC SBT theory of CE399 is an absolute and intentional lie.

But, there was still only a single shooter!

Tom,you are advocating that JBC was struck by a separate bullet,ok. I have JFK in the back seat with two wounds;back and throat.One shooter (as I also believe) the bullet that entered the back(JFK) had to exit the throat. If it didn't the go on to hit JBC, where did it go? Did the knot in JFK's tie deflect it out of the limo? Did it go on to hit the chrome strip above the windshield? With JBC being hit by a separate bullet,this is what we have now-----1st shot misses..2nd shot hits JFK....3rd shot hits JBC..4th shot Jfk headshot...5th shot grassy knoll per 1979 HSCA final report.Disreguard knoll shot, that leaves us with four shots. One shooter,not enough time to get four shots off. Was there no missed shot or were JFK&JBC hit by the same shot? If in fact there was a missed shot,and JBC was indeed hit by a separate shot-what do we have -a case for conspiracy.

Richard;

Most who have been around here for some time are familiar with "my" scenario for the back entrance wound and throat wound of JFK.

Most of which has been/was long ago reviewed by some of the most qualified persons to exist in the fields of forensic and ballistic sciences.

And although there are undoubtedly still those who scoff, I still have absolutely ZERO problems with it as it, not unlike other aspects, completely answers most of the questions of CE399 and the back wound as well as the anterior wound of the throat which was in fact creatd by a 4.5mm fragment of lead which sheared from the base of CE399 and exited the throat of JFK.

This fragment was found in the left floorboard underneath the seat in which Nellie Connally was seated and became one of three fragments designnated as CE840.

However, this specific fragment also completely disappeared from the National Archives.

I would add, that even FBI Agent Robert Frazier suspicioned that this fragment of lead came from CE399, and Mr. Frazier undoubtedly knows much more than he has ever stated as regards to how CE399 came to exist and the wounds which it is responsible for.

He more or less let this secret out during portions of his testimony in the Clay Shaw trial.

Years back when I used to speak with Frazier on the phone and correspond with him, I certainly wanted to out and out ask him exactly what he did know.

However, I did not want to cut off our communications by creating a conflict, and therefore avoided this.

Guess that since I still have his home address as well as home telephone number that perhaps I should go ahead and get his input as to exactly how much of this he truly does know.

Nevertheless, once CE399 and it's injuries to JFK are placed into perspective, the remainder is quite simple.

CE399 struck one of the limbs in the live oak tree directly in front of the TSDB.

Striking this limb caused the bullet to lose spin and stability and thereafter tumble in flight.

The bullet struck JFK in a base first attitude, thus accounting for the 4mm X 7mm "punch-type" wound of entry which had relatively clean-cut edges.

The flat base of CE399 is also responsible for having "punched" out a relatively large amount of fabric from the coat and shirt of JFK, just as does a paper punch, or a wadcutter bullet, and thereafter carried this fabric down into the wound of entry.

The end over end rotational enertia of the bullet is also what caused the bullet to "arc" over during entry and ultimately resulted in the 45-degree t0 60-degree downward angle of entry as reported by Dr. Humes.

The external forces exerted on to the bullet as it passed through the dense wood of the tree limb caused the bullet to progressively become more deformed towards the bullet base, ultimately resulting in a 4.5mm diameter protrusion of the lead core having squeezed out the base of the bullet as a result of the forces applied.

When the bullet struck in the base first position and encountered the right transverse process of the C7/T1 vertebrae, it sheared this cone-shaped, flat-based protrusion of lead from the bullet, and this is what created the small 3 to 5m wound of exit to the throat of JFk.

And, this small section of the lead core of the bullet, which weighed o.9 grains was what was found under the jumpseat which Nellie Connally was sitting in, and is what has disappeared from CE840.

The day after the WC completed their re-enactment work in Dealy Plaza, members of the re-enactment team remained behind and were observed cutting and removing the limbs from the top of the live oak tree directly in front of the TSDB, in event that tells you anything.

If you will review the testimony of Agent Frazier during the Clay Shaw trial, you will find that he stated:

"Or the other alternative would be if the bullet tumbled in flight and struck in a base first attitude, then the lead would be exposed at the base of the bullet" (words to that effect).

This answer was in regards to exactly how was it that CE 399 could have left metallic fragments in the neck of JFk since none of the exterior copper jacket was in fact missing.

Notes:

The Bullet is PE399 which was fired through a 1-inch thick live oak tree limb into a drum of water and re-captured.

The bullet fragments are CE840. The circled fragment is the cone-shaped flat-based 4.5mm diameter lead core of the bullet which squeezed out the base of the bullet and was sheared off due to a base-first attitude impact with the right transverse process of the C7/T1 vertebrae and subsequently exited the anterior throat of JFK, to be found under Nellie Connally's jump seat, only to later disappear from the National Archives.

P.S. Despite what the WC tells you, the tie of JFK was X-rayed and found to have metallic residue embedded in the fabric.

Later, the area of "abrasion" where this residue was found, became an actual "nick" in which the fabric which contained the metallic residue, was made to also disappear.

Edited November 27, 2006 by Thomas H. Purvis

[Thomas H. Purvis]

I will attempt to dig out the other "pre-impact" drawings and post them as well, for those who are new and have not had the opportunity to yell BS.

Tom