The vehicle parked behind the retaining wall

[Lee Forman]

If we believe James Hicks, then it's a '56 Pontiac. If we believe Lee Vida Whatley, it may be the same car [large, off-white sedan with out-of-state plates - reported to Roy Truly] that took her space early that morning. As I pointed out elsewhere, as per Jim Connor, Lee Whatley saw another car she did not recognize parked next to the car parked in her normal space - it had the same out of state plates.

The reason it is seen in Nix, Bell and Hughes and doesn't seem to exist in the Moorman is due to the difference in elevation.

Thought I'd run through this one again - since I wasted time on it. My original assumption was that the car would have hidden behind the pergola - that would have explained why Sitzman didn't see it - as per her interview with Josiah Thompson. So I rented an off-white SUV, trying to at least mimic the height of an older 1956 automobile. I parked the car in the 'alley' between the pergola, the parking lot and the fence. I tried to get an angle that would have the car backed-up so that it was facing the Nix position - I didn't do too well there - it's a shame I didn't have someone to work with.

Anyway - upon examining the outcome of the experiment, I had to conclude:

1. That the car would have had to have been backed in much further - behind the retaining wall,

2. that indeed, the car would have hardly been visible from Moorman's perspective, and

3. the car would have been plainly visible from the pedestal.

I actually parked the car in 2 different locations. This is important, as it provides a view of the automobile, had it been simply parked in the back lot. For the first series, I am parked only up on the curb, partway on the grass in this position.

a. The first photo demonstrates the position of the car.

b. The second, a view from the pedestal

c. The third, a simulated Moorman - the vehicle is not visible.

d. The fourth, was a simulated Nix.

I also did a simulated Bell, but the car was not visible - only the picketfence was visible.

Unfortunately, this forum likes to screw around with the sequence on attachments, so I'm not sure what order we will end up with. I may have to do an edit and provide the sequence after seeing how it posted.

Yep.

a = 3

b = 1

c = 4

d = 2

Note how the vehicle, even in this position, is much more visible from the Orville Nix location - due to the difference in elevation.

Would someone mind please posting an 'yeah okay Bob' message so that I can continue and not have the clusterpost issue? Or tell me how to get around it.

Edited November 30, 2006 by Lee Forman

[Jack White]

Lee...VERY GOOD! You show a car of average height could not

be seen from the Moorman position. So the vehicle must be

much taller. What else can it be?

I have a eight-foot pole marked in feet. Someone needs to hold

it in the car location to be shot from Moorman and Nix positions

to find the vehicle height.

Jack

[Duke Lane]

... So I rented an off-white SUV, trying to at least mimic the height of an older 1956 automobile. I parked the car in the 'alley' between the pergola, the parking lot and the fence. I tried to get an angle that would have the car backed-up so that it was facing the Nix position - I didn't do too well there - it's a shame I didn't have someone to work with. ...

It's a shame you didn't ask for help!

[Lee Forman]

... So I rented an off-white SUV, trying to at least mimic the height of an older 1956 automobile. I parked the car in the 'alley' between the pergola, the parking lot and the fence. I tried to get an angle that would have the car backed-up so that it was facing the Nix position - I didn't do too well there - it's a shame I didn't have someone to work with. ...

It's a shame you didn't ask for help!

I did it awhile ago Duke [cutting and pasting text from a post on another forum] - otherwise I would have come prepared - cell phone, cooler, 2 six packs, etc. Maybe even one of those hibachi grills and a few T-bones. When I was metal detecting there once, 2 cops on bikes happened by - I sort of froze, waiting for the inevitable ticket - I heard them laugh and say something about digging for buried treasure. When I was backing up the car, I was thinking that I was going to have cop trouble any second. I probably made pretty good time in crossing the lawn to the Nix location and back.

Second Position. Backed up alongside the Pergola.

Same routine here - however, IMO, it's much closer to what we see in Nix, Hughes, Bell and the Moorman - in this second location - but I was still not backed in far enough!

a. Demonstration of the position of the vehicle.

b. View from the pedestal - a small part of the car would have been visible - despite what Marilyn Sitzman related in the interview.

c. Simulated Moorman view.

d. Simulated Nix.

Let's see if these post in order.

Camper has it that the vehicles seen by Lee Bowers may have been working recon for the shooters in this location. I postulated once that perhaps the man seen in Nix is simply a cameraman - I still like that concept - however, I thought perhaps the shooter was hidden in the trunk [as Hicks was suggesting]. After taking several photos from that location, it would mean a pretty tough shot - sort of hard to credit. I would revise that theory that this vehicle was most likely acting in the capacity of a getaway car. I like that better. It could have easily picked up the man from the stairs, especially if he acted in the manner which was indicated to me - he took his shot, and left immediately without looking back.

As per posts elsewhere - I believe that they needed to ensure that they had secured the parking locations required to gain access to this area - hence the reason why Lee Vida Whatley encountered them that morning when she arrived for work. The car in question could have easily moved into this location, and then left directly afterwards, as per Hicks. Interesting - don't know if I mentioned it elsewhere - the car Lee Vida Whatley reported to Truly as being in her space was parked next to a Golden colored sedan of some kind. And again, out-of-state plates which I theorized elsewhere may have been similar to the all black numeric on a white background - to attempt to implicate Langley and Virginia. No way of knowing - there does not appear to be any record of the information Lee Whatley provided to Roy Truly. Her son was kind enough to offer that perhaps Truly was overwhelmed, given the events that transpired later, and simply forgot about the complaint made by one of his employees that morning - wish I could think like that.

- lee

Edited November 30, 2006 by Lee Forman

[Lee Forman]

Lee...VERY GOOD! You show a car of average height could not

be seen from the Moorman position. So the vehicle must be

much taller. What else can it be?

I have a eight-foot pole marked in feet. Someone needs to hold

it in the car location to be shot from Moorman and Nix positions

to find the vehicle height.

Jack

Hi Jack!

Note the last 2 photos I posted. They were taken from the general area of the Moorman and Nix positions. The difference in elevation seems plain. I also wish that I had used a 1956 off-white Pontiac for this little experiment, with the trunk open, but I guess that would be asking too much.

One thing that troubles me about this scenario is how obvious the car would have been to quite a few witnesses - and I still feel that I was off - needed to back up just a few more feet to approximately capture the vehicle as it is seen in Hughes, Bell, Moorman and Nix.

In Sitzman's defense [don't know why I am even bothering to play devil's advocate], she would have had to have turned to her right to have seen the vehicle - but it's still hard to imagine that she would not have, if she was standing there on the pedestal with Zapruder [who fails to mention it as well].

- lee

Edited November 30, 2006 by Lee Forman

[Jack White]

... So I rented an off-white SUV, trying to at least mimic the height of an older 1956 automobile. I parked the car in the 'alley' between the pergola, the parking lot and the fence. I tried to get an angle that would have the car backed-up so that it was facing the Nix position - I didn't do too well there - it's a shame I didn't have someone to work with. ...

It's a shame you didn't ask for help!

I did it awhile ago Duke [cutting and pasting text from a post on another forum] - otherwise I would have come prepared - cell phone, cooler, 2 six packs, etc. Maybe even one of those hibachi grills and a few T-bones. When I was metal detecting there once, 2 cops on bikes happened by - I sort of froze, waiting for the inevitable ticket - I heard them laugh and say something about digging for buried treasure. When I was backing up the car, I was thinking that I was going to have cop trouble any second. I probably made pretty good time in crossing the lawn to the Nix location and back.

Second Position. Backed up alongside the Pergola.

Same routine here - however, IMO, it's much closer to what we see in Nix, Hughes, Bell and the Moorman - in this second location - but I was still not backed in far enough!

a. Demonstration of the position of the vehicle.

b. View from the pedestal - a small part of the car would have been visible - despite what Marilyn Sitzman related in the interview.

c. Simulated Moorman view.

d. Simulated Nix.

Let's see if these post in order.

Camper has it that the vehicles seen by Lee Bowers may have been working recon for the shooters in this location. I postulated once that perhaps the man seen in Nix is simply a cameraman - I still like that concept - however, I thought perhaps the shooter was hidden in the trunk [as Hicks was suggesting]. After taking several photos from that location, it would mean a pretty tough shot - sort of hard to credit. I would revise that theory that this vehicle was most likely acting in the capacity of a getaway car. I like that better. It could have easily picked up the man from the stairs, especially if he acted in the manner which was indicated to me - he took his shot, and left immediately without looking back.

As per posts elsewhere - I believe that they needed to ensure that they had secured the parking locations required to gain access to this area - hence the reason why Lee Vida Whatley encountered them that morning when she arrived for work. The car in question could have easily moved into this location, and then left directly afterwards, as per Hicks. Interesting - don't know if I mentioned it elsewhere - the car Lee Vida Whatley reported to Truly as being in her space was parked next to a Golden colored sedan of some kind. And again, out-of-state plates which I theorized elsewhere may have been similar to the all black numeric on a white background - to attempt to implicate Langley and Virginia. No way of knowing - there does not appear to be any record of the information Lee Whatley provided to Roy Truly. Her son was kind enough to offer that perhaps Truly was overwhelmed, given the events that transpired later, and simply forgot about the complaint made by one of his employees that morning - wish I could think like that.

- lee

Lee...that is not the correct position for the car. The earlier photo you

posted from the Nix position had it in the right place. I have done the

inset below which shows you had it right the first time, with the car

just backed up on the parking lot, not up near the pergola. Your

first photo has it correct in size and position.

Note that it also clearly shows that sky should be seen above the

car, not total blackness.

Jack

Note...disregard the word "if" which should have been deleted when I

changed it to "but"

Edited November 30, 2006 by Jack White

[Lee Forman]

Last one for now - I did a few animated GIFs to demonstrate - may need to dig them out. As I recall - they were done in a hurried fashion and weren't that good.

This is the area that I backed in from, and where after numerous email exchanges with Jim Connor, I believe his Mother would have had her parking space - through her connections with the Sherriff's department - approximately next to the van. In 1963, there would have only been a railroad tie to back over.

Again, if we credit Hicks, then these guys moved out of this position shortly after shots were fired - however, the car can still be seen in the Hughes aftermath frames of the area.

[Bill Miller]

I do not want to offend anyone, nor waste much time on this matter, but Jack is in error about seeing any part of a car in Moorman's Polaroid. What is seen is the top of a tree that was further back in the parkinglot and nothing more. Josiah Thompson replicated Moorman's photo when he researched the Hat Man location and that tree top was still present.

Bill Miller

[Lee Forman]

Lee...that is not the correct position for the car. The earlier photo you

posted from the Nix position had it in the right place. I have done the

inset below which shows you had it right the first time, with the car

just backed up on the parking lot, not up near the pergola. Your

first photo has it correct in size and position.

Note that it also clearly shows that sky should be seen above the

car, not total blackness.

Jack

Note...disregard the word "if" which should have been deleted when I

changed it to "but"

I see your point Jack - does it also work for Hughes? It's a shame I didn't try to replicate the Hughes location. Hmm - there is a very nice shot in a Hughes frame that I didn't notice before. Maybe I'll try to get it.

- lee

[Jack White]

I do not want to offend anyone, nor waste much time on this matter, but Jack is in error about seeing any part of a car in Moorman's Polaroid. What is seen is the top of a tree that was further back in the parkinglot and nothing more. Josiah Thompson replicated Moorman's photo when he researched the Hat Man location and that tree top was still present.

Bill Miller

Show me the "tree".

[Jack White]

I do not want to offend anyone, nor waste much time on this matter, but Jack is in error about seeing any part of a car in Moorman's Polaroid. What is seen is the top of a tree that was further back in the parkinglot and nothing more. Josiah Thompson replicated Moorman's photo when he researched the Hat Man location and that tree top was still present.

Bill Miller

I looked thru all my Dealey Plaza aerials on this computer and could

find NO photo which showed any tree in the area described. Show us

Thompson's tree.

This photo from four years ago was made from Reunion Tower.

Jack

[Lee Forman]

I do not want to offend anyone, nor waste much time on this matter, but Jack is in error about seeing any part of a car in Moorman's Polaroid. What is seen is the top of a tree that was further back in the parkinglot and nothing more. Josiah Thompson replicated Moorman's photo when he researched the Hat Man location and that tree top was still present.

Bill Miller

No offense Bill - can you post Thompsons replication?

- lee

[Guest Mark Valenti]

Another view.

[Bill Miller]

No offense Bill - can you post Thompsons replication?

- lee

Lee, the tree I spoke of will not be found in pictures taken of the plaza in recent years, unlike what Jack thinks. As I recall, I saw the tree that I believed it to be in the photo taken on the afternoon of the assassination ... the same day Moorman took her photo. That photo should be in Trask's book "POTP". Josiah Thompson would have to post his photo because I don't have a copy of it.

Bill Miller

[Dave Curbow]

No offense Bill - can you post Thompsons replication?

- lee

Lee, the tree I spoke of will not be found in pictures taken of the plaza in recent years, unlike what Jack thinks. As I recall, I saw the tree that I believed it to be in the photo taken on the afternoon of the assassination ... the same day Moorman took her photo. That photo should be in Trask's book "POTP". Josiah Thompson would have to post his photo because I don't have a copy of it.

Bill Miller

What Bill is referring to, I think, is on pages 223-225 of Six Seconds. "Question 5: Did the fatal shot come from a 'gunman' perched on a 'station wagon' located near the concrete pergola? Answer: No. The 'station wagon' is a vehicle parked some 30 to 40 feet behind the pergola, while the 'gunman' turns out to be a pattern of light and dark shadows on its west wall." His answer was based on an Itek study of the Nix film, plus his own observations of the Hughes and Bell films.

The quote that Bill may have in mind is on 224: "The man with the rifle, however, was found to be nothing more than the shadows of tree branches and leaves on the side of the white pavilion." The photos in Six Seconds are the ones we all are familiar with.

Hope this helps.

Dave

Edited December 1, 2006 by Dave Curbow