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Michael,

When I used to spend hours studying the Z film, one of the very smallt hings I noticed was a slight dent/chip in the top left of the Stemmons sign from Z frame 183 onwards. It might just be my eyes playing tricks on me, but take a look and let me know what you think.

It might just be my eyes playing tricks on me

Nope! You apparantly have excellent eyesight.

Might want to take a look at Z200 and the slight "notch" on the right hand side.

Always helps to follow the vertical line which is just in from the outer edge of the sign, created by the difference in shade/texture, whether looking for the right notch, or for the left notch.

So if I understand you guys correctly - there must be several bullet holes in the road sign because you have managaed to take blurred frames and found what you think are "notches" in the road sign. If this is the case, then the same can be said about the road sign before the first shot was ever fired. I think that if you look at some other areas of the sign that you will find where light colored objects have bled over onto the sign, as well. I would also like to point out that in the days after the assassination and before the sign was ever removed .... there was a photo taken of some nuns lines in front of the road sign as they prayed for the fallen President and in that good clear photo you will be hard pressed to find even a scratch on the road sign - let alone bullet holes.

Bill Miller

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Michael,

When I used to spend hours studying the Z film, one of the very smallt hings I noticed was a slight dent/chip in the top left of the Stemmons sign from Z frame 183 onwards. It might just be my eyes playing tricks on me, but take a look and let me know what you think.

It might just be my eyes playing tricks on me

Nope! You apparantly have excellent eyesight.

Might want to take a look at Z200 and the slight "notch" on the right hand side.

Always helps to follow the vertical line which is just in from the outer edge of the sign, created by the difference in shade/texture, whether looking for the right notch, or for the left notch.

So if I understand you guys correctly - there must be several bullet holes in the road sign because you have managaed to take blurred frames and found what you think are "notches" in the road sign. If this is the case, then the same can be said about the road sign before the first shot was ever fired. I think that if you look at some other areas of the sign that you will find where light colored objects have bled over onto the sign, as well. I would also like to point out that in the days after the assassination and before the sign was ever removed .... there was a photo taken of some nuns lines in front of the road sign as they prayed for the fallen President and in that good clear photo you will be hard pressed to find even a scratch on the road sign - let alone bullet holes.

Bill Miller

Thanks all for the input! Its getting better and better. Thanks for the pics Bill. I can see what you are saying about the pictures being "blurred", and that is always what has been the problem with trying to actually "see" what was actually there. The information page you posted is good, and helps explain that it was a "marker" for the Z film. Where did this information sheet come from? The color picture is in good detail, and you can see pretty well what is going on. What struck me right away was on the back of the sign about 3/4 way down on the left hand side, about a foot or so in from the pole, appears to be a "major" [looking] dent, with the "hit" mark right in the center of it. When something is hit hard enough, whatever hits it can leave an impression in the center of the dent from the blunt force of the impact, but doesnt "break" through. Smething left a dent in the sign from being hit in the front. Its hard to see [the front of the B/W picture of the Nuns praying] beacuse it appears that it may have been hit in the dark [green i suppose] area of the sign, and it is hard to tell because it is in the dark area. I could very well be mistaken, but at least that is what it appears to be from my standpoint. The Nun picture carries a date of the 25th, so the picture could have been taken the same day [22nd] or up to the 24th i suppose. Do you know when it was taken? The reason I am asking is, as to when the sign was actually removed. It would be nice to know the "actual" date was that it was removed. I have to assume that it was the named "survey" company that was hired to remove it. Maybe in his "kept" notes and records he has it recorded as to when they removed it. It would be great to get access of those records, and see what was removed, put back, and removed completely. It may even tell of "relocating" a sign, as i posted earlier, to throw off peopledoing any investigating into the Zfilm, or any of the other films taken that day. Just my opinion FWIW. thanks-smitty

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"First Day Evidence and Dealey Plaza"

Michael Parks..

"The SecretService performed a reenactment on 12/5/63 of the shooting of President Kennedy at Dealey Plaza. A survey plat was made for this event by Dallas County Surveyer Robert West and his assistant, Chester Breneman. This survey plat later became Commission Exhibit 585..

This was not the first reenactment performed by the Secret Service in Dealey Plaza. On 11/27/63, they hired the local CBS affiliate KRLD-TV...to film a pre-reenactment, the television crew filmed from Zapruder's pedestal. Within this automobile were two other camera-men, one filming back toward the Texas School Book Depository while the other films ahead toward the Triple Underpass.

We do not know why the Secret Service needed a pre-reenactment. At the time of this event, they had the Zapruder film and may even had a survey plat made on 11/25/63 for Time/Life by the same survey team of West and Breneman..The Official story during both the Secret Services reenactments was three shots, three hits.This story did not change until the following year with the advent of the Magic Bullet...

Breneman stated that they had a full set of Zapruder frames from which to work with during the December reenactment..The was furnished by Life Magazine to the Secret Service .These slide were used to place the shots on

CE 585.....

As was pointed out by Chuck Marler in his several informative articles on the topic, shots were placed at Zapruder frames 208, 276, and 358..

These locations were marked on the county survey plat and it became an official document..

It is quite obvious by even the casual observer that the Zapruder film does not support this shot placement.."

The next year to back up the theory of the Magic Bullet, the FBI and the Warren Commission held a third reenactment in the Plaza..on 5/24/64....the actors used the Zapruder film, and West and Breneman made another survey plat..CE 882...they move the Head shot to Z 313 from Z 358..

.It makes you wonder if they had the same film....???

The three yellow curb painted sections within the area where JFK was killed, the last yellow curb marker, is seen after Z 313 but before Z 358.....

" There is no way the Secret Service could have been off 45 frames in their head shot placement unless they viewed a different Zapruder film.."

'' Is there more proof the Stemmons sign was moved? Yes !

Surveyor ( Joe) West stated he later measured his plats and found the sign had been moved by more than ten feet..

Even assassination witness and Dealey Plaza groundskeeper, Emmett Hudson testified the signs in the Plaza had been moved ( shortly ?) after 11/22/63...He also said the head shot was almost in front of where he stood.

This would agree more with the Secret Service's Z 358 shot than the FBI's Z 313...

It appears the sign was moved to the FBI's position to match the altered sign in the Zapruder film...

All the Zapruder frames seen were chosen because of the closeness to the reenactment .."

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...mp;relPageId=34

http://www.assassinationscience.com/johnco...intro/sign.html

B..

Edited by Bernice Moore
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Something left a dent in the sign from being hit in the front. Its hard to see [the front of the B/W picture of the Nuns praying]beacuse it appears that it may have been hit in the dark [green i suppose] area of the sign, and it is hard to tell because it is in the dark area. I could very well be mistaken, but at least that is what it appears to be from my standpoint. The Nun picture carries a date of the 25th, so the picture could have been taken the same day [22nd] or up to the 24th i suppose. Do you know when it was taken?

The road sign was made of wood, so I do not see how anything like a bullet could merely dent it. I have always recalled that nun photo being taken the day after the shooting, but it may have been on Sunday. I think the 25th represents the day the article ran.

Bill Miller

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Michael,

When I used to spend hours studying the Z film, one of the very smallt hings I noticed was a slight dent/chip in the top left of the Stemmons sign from Z frame 183 onwards. It might just be my eyes playing tricks on me, but take a look and let me know what you think.

It might just be my eyes playing tricks on me

Nope! You apparantly have excellent eyesight.

Might want to take a look at Z200 and the slight "notch" on the right hand side.

Always helps to follow the vertical line which is just in from the outer edge of the sign, created by the difference in shade/texture, whether looking for the right notch, or for the left notch.

So if I understand you guys correctly - there must be several bullet holes in the road sign because you have managaed to take blurred frames and found what you think are "notches" in the road sign. If this is the case, then the same can be said about the road sign before the first shot was ever fired. I think that if you look at some other areas of the sign that you will find where light colored objects have bled over onto the sign, as well. I would also like to point out that in the days after the assassination and before the sign was ever removed .... there was a photo taken of some nuns lines in front of the road sign as they prayed for the fallen President and in that good clear photo you will be hard pressed to find even a scratch on the road sign - let alone bullet holes.

Bill Miller

Thanks all for the input! Its getting better and better. Thanks for the pics Bill. I can see what you are saying about the pictures being "blurred", and that is always what has been the problem with trying to actually "see" what was actually there. The information page you posted is good, and helps explain that it was a "marker" for the Z film. Where did this information sheet come from? The color picture is in good detail, and you can see pretty well what is going on. What struck me right away was on the back of the sign about 3/4 way down on the left hand side, about a foot or so in from the pole, appears to be a "major" [looking] dent, with the "hit" mark right in the center of it. When something is hit hard enough, whatever hits it can leave an impression in the center of the dent from the blunt force of the impact, but doesnt "break" through. Smething left a dent in the sign from being hit in the front. Its hard to see [the front of the B/W picture of the Nuns praying] beacuse it appears that it may have been hit in the dark [green i suppose] area of the sign, and it is hard to tell because it is in the dark area. I could very well be mistaken, but at least that is what it appears to be from my standpoint. The Nun picture carries a date of the 25th, so the picture could have been taken the same day [22nd] or up to the 24th i suppose. Do you know when it was taken? The reason I am asking is, as to when the sign was actually removed. It would be nice to know the "actual" date was that it was removed. I have to assume that it was the named "survey" company that was hired to remove it. Maybe in his "kept" notes and records he has it recorded as to when they removed it. It would be great to get access of those records, and see what was removed, put back, and removed completely. It may even tell of "relocating" a sign, as i posted earlier, to throw off peopledoing any investigating into the Zfilm, or any of the other films taken that day. Just my opinion FWIW. thanks-smitty

I have to assume that it was the named "survey" company that was hired to remove it.

The fact that Robert West Survey measured the signs has absolutely no bearing on who removed the signs, or when.

Another of those "assumptions" which has no basis or foundation in fact.

The signs were replaced/relocated at a time between the time that they/the WC had Mr. West conduct the measurements and prior to the WC's re-enactment.

Thereafter, the primary sign of concern was completely removed.

Street Crews, under normal circumstances, replace signs. Not surveyors!

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"First Day Evidence and Dealey Plaza"

Michael Parks..

"The SecretService performed a reenactment on 12/5/63 of the shooting of President Kennedy at Dealey Plaza. A survey plat was made for this event by Dallas County Surveyer Robert West and his assistant, Chester Breneman. This survey plat later became Commission Exhibit 585..

This was not the first reenactment performed by the Secret Service in Dealey Plaza. On 11/27/63, they hired the local CBS affiliate KRLD-TV...to film a pre-reenactment, the television crew filmed from Zapruder's pedestal. Within this automobile were two other camera-men, one filming back toward the Texas School Book Depository while the other films ahead toward the Triple Underpass.

We do not know why the Secret Service needed a pre-reenactment. At the time of this event, they had the Zapruder film and may even had a survey plat made on 11/25/63 for Time/Life by the same survey team of West and Breneman..The Official story during both the Secret Services reenactments was three shots, three hits.This story did not change until the following year with the advent of the Magic Bullet...

Breneman stated that they had a full set of Zapruder frames from which to work with during the December reenactment..The was furnished by Life Magazine to the Secret Service .These slide were used to place the shots on

CE 585.....

As was pointed out by Chuck Marler in his several informative articles on the topic, shots were placed at Zapruder frames 208, 276, and 358..

These locations were marked on the county survey plat and it became an official document..

It is quite obvious by even the casual observer that the Zapruder film does not support this shot placement.."

The next year to back up the theory of the Magic Bullet, the FBI and the Warren Commission held a third reenactment in the Plaza..on 5/24/64....the actors used the Zapruder film, and West and Breneman made another survey plat..CE 882...they move the Head shot to Z 313 from Z 358..

.It makes you wonder if they had the same film....???

The three yellow curb painted sections within the area where JFK was killed, the last yellow curb marker, is seen after Z 313 but before Z 358.....

" There is no way the Secret Service could have been off 45 frames in their head shot placement unless they viewed a different Zapruder film.."

'' Is there more proof the Stemmons sign was moved? Yes !

Surveyor ( Joe) West stated he later measured his plats and found the sign had been moved by more than ten feet..

Even assassination witness and Dealey Plaza groundskeeper, Emmett Hudson testified the signs in the Plaza had been moved ( shortly ?) after 11/22/63...He also said the head shot was almost in front of where he stood.

This would agree more with the Secret Service's Z 358 shot than the FBI's Z 313...

It appears the sign was moved to the FBI's position to match the altered sign in the Zapruder film...

All the Zapruder frames seen were chosen because of the closeness to the reenactment .."

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...mp;relPageId=34

http://www.assassinationscience.com/johnco...intro/sign.html

B..

Michael Parks..

"The SecretService performed a reenactment on 12/5/63 of the shooting of President Kennedy at Dealey Plaza. A survey plat was made for this event by Dallas County Surveyer Robert West and his assistant, Chester Breneman. This survey plat later became Commission Exhibit 585..

Nice that others are running around now claiming to know things of which they have for the most part only read.

The Secret Service re-enactment was done on December 2, 3, & 4th. The Survey Plat for their work was drawn up on 12/5/63, and Chester Breneman was not associated with this work.

We do not know why the Secret Service needed a pre-reenactment. At the time of this event, they had the Zapruder film and may even had a survey plat made on 11/25/63 for Time/Life by the same survey team of West and Breneman..The Official story during both the Secret Services reenactments was three shots, three hits.This story did not change until the following year with the advent of the Magic Bullet...

There was no "pre-reenactment" by the U.S. Secret Service.

Robert West survey had conducted the survey work for Time/Life on 11/25/63, (Survey Plat dated 11/26/63) which only located the first (behind the sign) impact as well as the Z313 impact points. This also happens to be the survey work which Brennan participated in and the reasons for requiring other work become quite obvious.

Mr. West had hired Breneman for this work, and Breneman did not even report measurements to the one/tenth foot.

All measurements were rounded to the nearest foot: as example, the window ledge of the sixth floor window was reported as being exactly 60 feet above the sidewalk below, when in fact it was 60.7 feet above the sidewalk.

In addition, all horizontal angles as well as vertical angles which Breneman computed were rounded to the nearest "minute".

At that time,(1963) most legal survey work required distances measured to the one-tenth foot and angles computed to the nearest "second". (degrees/minutes/& seconds)

For these (& other reasons)* the Time/Life Survey Plat, as drawn by Paul D. Hardin, does not and can not represent a legal document, and it is extremely lacking in detail as well as final accuracy.

This is the reason why most of the survey data as gained from the Time/Life work (measurements/locations/etc) can not be easily transferred to either the SS/FBI/ or even larger WC Survey

Plat.

*Breneman did not determine true street elevations at the designated shot impact points. In addition, all angles and distances were determined to street elevation with no consideration being given for the actual aiming point height of JFK's head which was in excess of 3 feet above the pavement.

Therefore, ALL angles, distances, and measurements are incorrect.

In addition to this, he gave no distances and established no station numbers along Elm St. which could be utilized for later reference

The ONE & ONLY U.S. Secret Service survey plat and re-enactment demonstrated that the impact point for the third/last/final shot was approximately 40 feet farther down Elm St. than was the impact point of the Z313 head shot.

Lastly, as with most "shared" information, I am just "sneaky" enough to not tell all.

Thus, the "Magic Bullet" theory was not the next step in the evolution of the genesis to the WC lie.

You see, when others were allowed this knowledge, I inadvertedly omitted the FBI Survey work and re-enactment of 2/7/64 in which the third/last/final shot down in front of James Altgens (40 feet past Z313 impact) was left in place, as was the impact point of the first shot, up behind the road sign.

The FBI was foolish enough to think that they could move the impact point of the Z313 shot, which they most certainly attempted to do.

I must assume that the yellow stripe on the Elm St. Curb ended this attempt to misrepresent the facts.

Breneman stated that they had a full set of Zapruder frames from which to work with during the December reenactment..The was furnished by Life Magazine to the Secret Service .These slide were used to place the shots on

CE 585.....

As was pointed out by Chuck Marler in his several informative articles on the topic, shots were placed at Zapruder frames 208, 276, and 358..

These locations were marked on the county survey plat and it became an official document..

Mr. West says otherwise, and had Breneman had anything to do with the U.S. Secret Service Survey work and Survey Plat of 12/5/63, then he most assuredly would not have been running around claiming stories of bullet impacts to the curb of Elm St. As there most certainly were none surveyed in during this, or for that matter during any other survey.

In addition, one would assume (unless he was drunk or on drugs) that had Breneman had anything to do with the U.S. Secret Service Survey work and assassination re-enactment of December 1963, that Breneman would have noticed that the U.S. Secret Service had added in a third impact point which Time/Life HAD NOT determined. And, this impact point for the third/last/final shot was some 40 feet past the impact point of the Z313 head shot.

As to Chuck Marlar, for the most part, he knows only what I allowed him to know!

The next year to back up the theory of the Magic Bullet, the FBI and the Warren Commission held a third reenactment in the Plaza..on 5/24/64....the actors used the Zapruder film, and West and Breneman made another survey plat..CE 882...they move the Head shot to Z 313 from Z 358..

As with anyone who is not provided with ALL of the facts, they tend to make mistakes which demonstrate same.

And since information was "selectively shared", Chuck & others had no idea that another "re-enactment" by the FBI was snuck in.

The WC was in fact the fourth re-enactment.

1. Time/Life of 11/25/63-------------Survey Plat 11/26/63

2. U.S. Secret Service of 12/2, 3, & 4/63------------------Survey Plat 12/5/63

3. FBI of 2/5 to 2/7/64-------------------------Survey Plat 2/7/64

4. Warren Commission 5/24/64*----------Survey Plat 5/31/64

*Mr. SHANEYFELT. On May 24, 1964, representatives of the Commission, Secret Service, and FBI reenacted the assassination, relocated specific locations of the car on the street based on the motion pictures, and in general staged a reenactment.

(personally, I would prefer the word "PHONEY" over that of "staged".)

In addition, many fail to recognize the "pre-re-enactment" work.

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; southwest corner. After he heard the shots, he hurried down along the curb of Main Street, but did not remember exactly where he was standing. On the basis of his motion pictures, we were able to analyze the pictures using his camera, and on the 23d of May of this year, during the survey, preparatory to the reenactment,

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Recognizing that there are some "new guy's" here, please do not accept what Chuck Marlar or for that matter anyone else has to say in regards to the survey work in Dealy Plaza.

That is unless of course they can provide copies of the actual survey's as well as the survey notes.

Try as I may, it seems a virtual impossibility to keep persons from wanting to jump off down into these rabbit holes, armed with only rumor; hearsay; innuendo; and half-truth.

Edited by Thomas H. Purvis
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"First Day Evidence and Dealey Plaza"

Michael Parks..

"The SecretService performed a reenactment on 12/5/63 of the shooting of President Kennedy at Dealey Plaza. A survey plat was made for this event by Dallas County Surveyer Robert West and his assistant, Chester Breneman. This survey plat later became Commission Exhibit 585..

This was not the first reenactment performed by the Secret Service in Dealey Plaza. On 11/27/63, they hired the local CBS affiliate KRLD-TV...to film a pre-reenactment, the television crew filmed from Zapruder's pedestal. Within this automobile were two other camera-men, one filming back toward the Texas School Book Depository while the other films ahead toward the Triple Underpass.

We do not know why the Secret Service needed a pre-reenactment. At the time of this event, they had the Zapruder film and may even had a survey plat made on 11/25/63 for Time/Life by the same survey team of West and Breneman..The Official story during both the Secret Services reenactments was three shots, three hits.This story did not change until the following year with the advent of the Magic Bullet...

Breneman stated that they had a full set of Zapruder frames from which to work with during the December reenactment..The was furnished by Life Magazine to the Secret Service .These slide were used to place the shots on

CE 585.....

As was pointed out by Chuck Marler in his several informative articles on the topic, shots were placed at Zapruder frames 208, 276, and 358..

These locations were marked on the county survey plat and it became an official document..

It is quite obvious by even the casual observer that the Zapruder film does not support this shot placement.."

The next year to back up the theory of the Magic Bullet, the FBI and the Warren Commission held a third reenactment in the Plaza..on 5/24/64....the actors used the Zapruder film, and West and Breneman made another survey plat..CE 882...they move the Head shot to Z 313 from Z 358..

.It makes you wonder if they had the same film....???

The three yellow curb painted sections within the area where JFK was killed, the last yellow curb marker, is seen after Z 313 but before Z 358.....

" There is no way the Secret Service could have been off 45 frames in their head shot placement unless they viewed a different Zapruder film.."

'' Is there more proof the Stemmons sign was moved? Yes !

Surveyor ( Joe) West stated he later measured his plats and found the sign had been moved by more than ten feet..

Even assassination witness and Dealey Plaza groundskeeper, Emmett Hudson testified the signs in the Plaza had been moved ( shortly ?) after 11/22/63...He also said the head shot was almost in front of where he stood.

This would agree more with the Secret Service's Z 358 shot than the FBI's Z 313...

It appears the sign was moved to the FBI's position to match the altered sign in the Zapruder film...

All the Zapruder frames seen were chosen because of the closeness to the reenactment .."

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...mp;relPageId=34

http://www.assassinationscience.com/johnco...intro/sign.html

B..

Michael Parks..

"The SecretService performed a reenactment on 12/5/63 of the shooting of President Kennedy at Dealey Plaza. A survey plat was made for this event by Dallas County Surveyer Robert West and his assistant, Chester Breneman. This survey plat later became Commission Exhibit 585..

Nice that others are running around now claiming to know things of which they have for the most part only read.

The Secret Service re-enactment was done on December 2, 3, & 4th. The Survey Plat for their work was drawn up on 12/5/63, and Chester Breneman was not associated with this work.

We do not know why the Secret Service needed a pre-reenactment. At the time of this event, they had the Zapruder film and may even had a survey plat made on 11/25/63 for Time/Life by the same survey team of West and Breneman..The Official story during both the Secret Services reenactments was three shots, three hits.This story did not change until the following year with the advent of the Magic Bullet...

There was no "pre-reenactment" by the U.S. Secret Service.

Robert West survey had conducted the survey work for Time/Life on 11/25/63, (Survey Plat dated 11/26/63) which only located the first (behind the sign) impact as well as the Z313 impact points. This also happens to be the survey work which Brennan participated in and the reasons for requiring other work become quite obvious.

Mr. West had hired Breneman for this work, and Breneman did not even report measurements to the one/tenth foot.

All measurements were rounded to the nearest foot: as example, the window ledge of the sixth floor window was reported as being exactly 60 feet above the sidewalk below, when in fact it was 60.7 feet above the sidewalk.

In addition, all horizontal angles as well as vertical angles which Breneman computed were rounded to the nearest "minute".

At that time,(1963) most legal survey work required distances measured to the one-tenth foot and angles computed to the nearest "second". (degrees/minutes/& seconds)

For these (& other reasons)* the Time/Life Survey Plat, as drawn by Paul D. Hardin, does not and can not represent a legal document, and it is extremely lacking in detail as well as final accuracy.

This is the reason why most of the survey data as gained from the Time/Life work (measurements/locations/etc) can not be easily transferred to either the SS/FBI/ or even larger WC Survey

Plat.

*Breneman did not determine true street elevations at the designated shot impact points. In addition, all angles and distances were determined to street elevation with no consideration being given for the actual aiming point height of JFK's head which was in excess of 3 feet above the pavement.

Therefore, ALL angles, distances, and measurements are incorrect.

In addition to this, he gave no distances and established no station numbers along Elm St. which could be utilized for later reference

The ONE & ONLY U.S. Secret Service survey plat and re-enactment demonstrated that the impact point for the third/last/final shot was approximately 40 feet farther down Elm St. than was the impact point of the Z313 head shot.

Lastly, as with most "shared" information, I am just "sneaky" enough to not tell all.

Thus, the "Magic Bullet" theory was not the next step in the evolution of the genesis to the WC lie.

You see, when others were allowed this knowledge, I inadvertedly omitted the FBI Survey work and re-enactment of 2/7/64 in which the third/last/final shot down in front of James Altgens (40 feet past Z313 impact) was left in place, as was the impact point of the first shot, up behind the road sign.

The FBI was foolish enough to think that they could move the impact point of the Z313 shot, which they most certainly attempted to do.

I must assume that the yellow stripe on the Elm St. Curb ended this attempt to misrepresent the facts.

Breneman stated that they had a full set of Zapruder frames from which to work with during the December reenactment..The was furnished by Life Magazine to the Secret Service .These slide were used to place the shots on

CE 585.....

As was pointed out by Chuck Marler in his several informative articles on the topic, shots were placed at Zapruder frames 208, 276, and 358..

These locations were marked on the county survey plat and it became an official document..

Mr. West says otherwise, and had Breneman had anything to do with the U.S. Secret Service Survey work and Survey Plat of 12/5/63, then he most assuredly would not have been running around claiming stories of bullet impacts to the curb of Elm St. As there most certainly were none surveyed in during this, or for that matter during any other survey.

In addition, one would assume (unless he was drunk or on drugs) that had Breneman had anything to do with the U.S. Secret Service Survey work and assassination re-enactment of December 1963, that Breneman would have noticed that the U.S. Secret Service had added in a third impact point which Time/Life HAD NOT determined. And, this impact point for the third/last/final shot was some 40 feet past the impact point of the Z313 head shot.

As to Chuck Marlar, for the most part, he knows only what I allowed him to know!

The next year to back up the theory of the Magic Bullet, the FBI and the Warren Commission held a third reenactment in the Plaza..on 5/24/64....the actors used the Zapruder film, and West and Breneman made another survey plat..CE 882...they move the Head shot to Z 313 from Z 358..

As with anyone who is not provided with ALL of the facts, they tend to make mistakes which demonstrate same.

And since information was "selectively shared", Chuck & others had no idea that another "re-enactment" by the FBI was snuck in.

The WC was in fact the fourth re-enactment.

1. Time/Life of 11/25/63-------------Survey Plat 11/26/63

2. U.S. Secret Service of 12/2, 3, & 4/63------------------Survey Plat 12/5/63

3. FBI of 2/5 to 2/7/64-------------------------Survey Plat 2/7/64

4. Warren Commission 5/24/64*----------Survey Plat 5/31/64

*Mr. SHANEYFELT. On May 24, 1964, representatives of the Commission, Secret Service, and FBI reenacted the assassination, relocated specific locations of the car on the street based on the motion pictures, and in general staged a reenactment.

(personally, I would prefer the word "PHONEY" over that of "staged".)

In addition, many fail to recognize the "pre-re-enactment" work.

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; southwest corner. After he heard the shots, he hurried down along the curb of Main Street, but did not remember exactly where he was standing. On the basis of his motion pictures, we were able to analyze the pictures using his camera, and on the 23d of May of this year, during the survey, preparatory to the reenactment,

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Recognizing that there are some "new guy's" here, please do not accept what Chuck Marlar or for that matter anyone else has to say in regards to the survey work in Dealy Plaza.

That is unless of course they can provide copies of the actual survey's as well as the survey notes.

Try as I may, it seems a virtual impossibility to keep persons from wanting to jump off down into these rabbit holes, armed with only rumor; hearsay; innuendo; and half-truth.

Thanks again Bill, Bernice, and Tom for the detailed information. It is really beginning to appear that the "signs" had the WC and others worried, and took steps to verify their "work", by altering and changing sign locations, to match their version of the Zfilm. Getting back to the earlier post by Bill, I was always under the impression that the "Stemmons" sign was metal, as others were at this time. I have never heard of it being made of wood in anything I have read over the years. It "wood" [pun intended] be nice to know exactly when the sign was removed, and exactly by who. Just my opinion FWIW

thanks-smitty

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The saga continued!

Now that there is a little more attachment space, this can continue.

Thanks for printing those copies. Isnt it funny that they wanted the "exact" dimensions, and "exact" height, but not the position???? Because they would put the sign where they "needed" it to be!! The other sign down Elm further, I assume, the one in front of the fence and before the overpass, was completely disregarded, and no dimensions, or position, was wanted or needed, as it didnt play into the shooting zone or Zfilm. Thank you very much again Tom for printing them. These go a long way in "showing" what the WC and others were up to concerning the Zfilm and the others taken that day. Just my opinion FWIW

thanks-smitty

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Guest Eugene B. Connolly

One could, if they so desire and have no other capabilities, speculate til hell freezes over in regards to the "Sign Problem", and still never have the answers.

Just more confusion and roaming in the land of the lost.

However, if one takes the time to research the matter, then there is acually very little that is difficult to understand in regards to the sign removal as well.

I do speculate and assure you I have many other - as you say "capabilities' and I will speculate till Hell freezes over as regards the "Sign Problem" and until

I am satisfied that I have the answers or at least know that there are no answers.

Why don't you with all your "research" of the "matter" put us all out of our misguided and moronic-lack-of-understanding-misery

give us the benefit of your "research" of the "matter" and tell us all in this forum what you

have found that tells you there is " acually (sic) very little that is difficult to understand

in regards to the sign removal as well."

EBC

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Guest Eugene B. Connolly

Thomas H. Purvis

One could, if they so desire and have no other capabilities, speculate til hell freezes over in regards to the "Sign Problem", and still never have the answers.

Just more confusion and roaming in the land of the lost.

However, if one takes the time to research the matter, then there is acually very little that is difficult to understand in regards to the sign removal as well.

I do speculate and assure you I have many other - as you say "capabilities' and I will speculate till Hell freezes over as regards the "Sign Problem" and until

I am satisfied that I have the answers or at least know that there are no answers.

Why don't you, with all your "research" of the "matter", put us all out of our misguided and moronic-lack-of-understanding-misery

give us the benefit of your "research" of the "matter" and tell us all in this forum what you

have found that tells you there is " acually (sic) very little that is difficult to understand

in regards to the sign removal as well."

EBC

Edited by Eugene B. Connolly
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Thomas H. Purvis

One could, if they so desire and have no other capabilities, speculate til hell freezes over in regards to the "Sign Problem", and still never have the answers.

Just more confusion and roaming in the land of the lost.

However, if one takes the time to research the matter, then there is acually very little that is difficult to understand in regards to the sign removal as well.

I do speculate and assure you I have many other - as you say "capabilities' and I will speculate till Hell freezes over as regards the "Sign Problem" and until

I am satisfied that I have the answers or at least know that there are no answers.

Why don't you, with all your "research" of the "matter", put us all out of our misguided and moronic-lack-of-understanding-misery

give us the benefit of your "research" of the "matter" and tell us all in this forum what you

have found that tells you there is " acually (sic) very little that is difficult to understand

in regards to the sign removal as well."

EBC

Why don't you, with all your "research" of the "matter", put us all out of our misguided and moronic-lack-of-understanding-misery

give us the benefit of your "research" of the "matter" and tell us all in this forum what you

have found that tells you there is " acually (sic) very little that is difficult to understand

in regards to the sign removal as well."

Although most of what you ask was done a considerably time back, it is highly unlikely that it will put you

"out of our misguided and moronic-lack-of-understanding-misery", as one has to take the time to read and understand it.

And, until such time as you have studied the WC and:

1. The Adjusted Position

2. The Alteration of Survey Data

3. The multiple run-through's during the re-enactment

4. The multiple filming of the re-enactment from different angles and elevations

5. The jacked up rifle/filming position in the sixth floor window

Then, it is most unlikely that you will also grasp the necessity for removal and replacement/relocation of the road sign just prior to the WC's re-enactment of the assassination.

And, it also helps to know that neither Time/Life nor the US Secret Service or FBI originally had any great difficulty in location of the approximate point of impact for the first shot fired.

(which information I also provided a considerable length of time back)

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In event one sets out to "adjust" the height/elevation of the target, as well as the lateral position of the target on Elm St., then it would be best if items of reference such as signs are also "adjusted" to correlate to the other changes.

Posted and provided long ago, and probably for the last time!

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