Trench Coat and Badge

[Robert Howard]

Hello Bernice,

>Either that, or speaking into a something, or coughing.....??<

Smoking?

Robin,

>Nice job Ed.<

Thanks.

Superb blow up of Bell frames. Different woman? Maybe the purse is LIGHT light colored and we see it in shadow, but not the same woman. Notice the green and white car has barely moved and she is in the left of the frame.

John,

LOL! curtain rods.............

Well, I think this is a very interesting and potentially lucrative area of analysis; a couple of observations.

The Badge: The top half of the badge appears octahon shaped while the bottom half is more standarized looking.....I did some image searches under google image "law enforcement badges then "search within results"

then, tried "early 1960's".....based on preliminary results,.....nothing identical popped up; next stop.....Countries which hold potential linkage based on background of the "usual suspects," French....Mob....Corsican.....Marseilles....Mexico, Canadian, Hungarian, GERMAN, intelligence, a US Law enforcement particular state badge......?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badge

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=...amp;btnG=Search

Potentially, it could even be a phony badge, as in not an official badge and therefore, not limited to traditional, or, known design.....

Regarding the women...To me, [and obviously a individual view] the woman who appears alone does not appear to me to be the same woman as the one, next to the ostensible policeman. Woman w/policeman is in a skirt, the other woman is [perhaps] wearing slacks?

The I.D.[ing] of the badge seems very do-able.

[Robert Howard]

Hello Bernice,

>Either that, or speaking into a something, or coughing.....??<

Smoking?

Robin,

>Nice job Ed.<

Thanks.

Superb blow up of Bell frames. Different woman? Maybe the purse is LIGHT light colored and we see it in shadow, but not the same woman. Notice the green and white car has barely moved and she is in the left of the frame.

John,

LOL! curtain rods.............

Well, I think this is a very interesting and potentially lucrative area of analysis; a couple of observations.

The Badge: The top half of the badge appears octahon shaped while the bottom half is more standarized looking.....I did some image searches under google image "law enforcement badges then "search within results"

then, tried "early 1960's".....based on preliminary results,.....nothing identical popped up; next stop.....Countries which hold potential linkage based on background of the "usual suspects," France....Mob....Corsican.....Marseilles....Mexico, Canadian, Hungarian, GERMAN, intelligence, a US Law enforcement particular state badge......?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badge

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=...amp;btnG=Search

Potentially, it could even be a phony badge, as in not an official badge and therefore, not limited to traditional, or, known design.....

Regarding the women...To me, [and obviously a individual view] the woman who appears alone does not appear to me to be the same woman as the one, next to the ostensible policeman. Woman w/policeman is in a skirt, the other woman is [perhaps] wearing slacks?

The I.D.[ing] of the badge seems very do-able.

Edited December 23, 2006 by Robert Howard

[Robin Unger]

Thanks Ed.

Yeh, you are correct, it does appear to be a different woman. !

[Ed LeDoux]

Thanks Ed.

Yeh, you are correct, it does appear to be a different woman. !

Robin,

Darn you beat me to the post, I made this for nothing then!

Oh well, back to the Badges and Raincoat...........

Ed

[Ed LeDoux]

>Well, I think this is a very interesting and potentially lucrative area of analysis; a couple of observations.

The Badge: The top half of the badge appears octahon shaped while the bottom half is more standarized looking.....I did some image searches under google image "law enforcement badges then "search within results"

then, tried "early 1960's".....based on preliminary results,.....nothing identical popped up; next stop.....Countries which hold potential linkage based on background of the "usual suspects," France....Mob....Corsican.....Marseilles....Mexico, Canadian, Hungarian, GERMAN, intelligence, a US Law enforcement particular state badge......?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badge

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=...amp;btnG=Search

Potentially, it could even be a phony badge, as in not an official badge and therefore, not limited to traditional, or, known design.....

The I.D.[ing] of the badge seems very do-able.<

Hello Robert,

You bring up some fine points of interest. I did follow your lead and wiki provided this,

An Air Force Fire Protection Badge. Also someone mentioned our man's hat badge reminded him of a Navy(?) recruiter hat badge but can only find the Breast Shield, as is the case with many sites, a neglect for the uniform cap and hat badge.

Plus this

"A cap badge, also known as head badge or hat badge, is a badge worn on uniform headgear such as the Boy Scouts, civil defence organizations, paramedical units (e.g. the St. John Ambulance Brigade), customs services, fire services etc."

and

"A combination cap is a form of military headgear worn with dress uniforms. It has a crown, a band and peak (peak in British English, visor in US English). In Britain and Canada such caps are usually known as peaked caps or (in the British Army) service dress caps. In the United States military, they are commonly known as service caps, wheel caps, or combination covers in the Naval services.

The crown is one color, often white for navies, sky blue for air forces, and green for armies, and may be piped around the edge in a different color. The band can be one color, often black, or can be striped. Most caps have some form of cap device (or cap badge). In the British Army, each regiment and corps has a different badge. The bill is short, and in newer caps, may be a shiny plastic. Sometimes, it is covered in fabric. "

"In the United States Navy, chief petty officers and commissioned officers both wear combination caps, but there are differences between the two types. A chief petty officer wears a combination cap with a black chinstrap attached with silver buttons, and decorated with a gold fouled anchor with silver block letters "USN" superimposed on the shank of the anchor; while a commissioned officer wears a combination cap with a gold chinstrap attached by gold buttons, and decorated with an officer crest, a silver federal shield over two crossed gold fouled anchors, surmounted by a silver eagle.........."

I thought it may also be a private security force badge, not necessarily Public or Governmental service.

Robert you gave me many ideas and leads, thank you.

Ed

"Badges? We ain't got no... stinking badges!"-Alfonso Bedoya in Treasure of Sierra Madre

[Ed LeDoux]

This is an old Iowa State Police Police Officers hat with the badge still attached. It is very similar.

It overlays exactly. It is just an older design year, likely 50's.

Well what does everyone think?

[Robert Howard]

This is an old Iowa State Police Police Officers hat with the badge still attached. It is very similar.

It overlays exactly. It is just an older design year, likely 50's.

Well what does everyone think?

Kudos for the legwork, unfortunately without a improvement in the clarity of the image you are searching from, arguably you arent going to get beyond 'look's very similar to.....,' I wish there was something along the lines of image enhanceement software that could eliminate the uncertainty, still.......

Edited December 23, 2006 by Robert Howard

[Ashton Gray]

This is an old Iowa State Police Police Officers hat with the badge still attached. It is very similar.

It overlays exactly. It is just an older design year, likely 50's.

Well what does everyone think?

Here is an enhancement of what you posted, treated with Photoshop's Shadows and Highlights filter, Levels, then Smart Sharpen.

The image was too low resolution to be able to bring out any more detail than this on the original (center) image, but I think it has brought out sufficiently more to make it worth posting:

Ashton

[Ed LeDoux]

here is larger image of hat badge.

Victor Klein, The Badgemaster wrote me to confirm;

"Thats a very generic style used in the 60's. Unfortunately no one produces this style badge any more so it would be a matter of waiting for one to surface."

Thats good, at least it is not unique to Iowa, but bad because it could be from anywhere around Texas.

That is the style though.

Ed

[Ed LeDoux]

Here is an enhancement of what you posted, treated with Photoshop's Shadows and Highlights filter, Levels, then Smart Sharpen.

The image was too low resolution to be able to bring out any more detail than this on the original (center) image, but I think it has brought out sufficiently more to make it worth posting:

Hello Ashton,

Thank you. That did make some details stand out. It seems that even with a better original it would still only show "Police" as the state lettering is so small. I'll still wait for some contacts to view your enhancement before shelving this for a while(till Boxing day).

Ed

[Jim Feemster]

Guys I still think i am seeing a nurses uniform on the lady and i definitly believe she is with " hat badgeman".

Anyone else see the uniform?

There was testimony of a nurse administering to the epeleptic guy before the motorcade showed up and they are both walking from that general direction { the corner of Elm and Houston }.

jim

[Michael G. Smith]

Guys I still think i am seeing a nurses uniform on the lady and i definitly believe she is with " hat badgeman".

Anyone else see the uniform?

There was testimony of a nurse administering to the epeleptic guy before the motorcade showed up and they are both walking from that general direction { the corner of Elm and Houston }.

jim

To throw in my 2 cts. worth, any badge that was used that day to "imitate" any type of offical, wheather it was suppose to be a policeman or G-man, it had to match his position. That person surely wouldnt be wearing a "firemans" titled badge if he was supposed to be a G-man, Lets face it, if they were S.S, FBI, or anyone else in the "G", they wouldnt be wearing a badge, at least visably. Now on the other hand, If they were supposed to be a Dallas PD official, they would have to have a badge that represented the "police", or something to that effect. Most of what was heard that day was that people attempting to get to the fence, or behind it were stopped by men showing Government ID's. There very well were "policemen" there that day doing what they needed to do, but as i said, the badges had to match what position they held. [They surely wouldnt be wearing an "Iowa Police" badge and try to represent a Dallas patrolman!] Anyone from the Dallas area, or surrounding areas, would probably know what an area badge looked like, or resembled. From most views, there didnt seem to be many people at that time who wasnt related, knew, or werent personal friends with someone from the Dallas PD. Im sure most people knew [maybe not exactly] what a Dallas PD badge looked like, or what it closely resembled. I think the badge shown in the first post most closely resembles the one worn by the "unknown" policeman", cutting across the infield with the "woman". Im not positive, but I dont think they would go to the trouble of making "molds" and creating their own version of the desired badge they wanted. It would be a "generic" type badge, readibly available, that they could put on their hats, that said "Police", and get away with, in a quick glance. God forbid they got put in a position with a bunch of legitament Dallas PD patrolman or detectives, that werent "in on" the whole affair. They had to make their assigned "moves", do their jobs, and get out. Quick, clean, and fast, before anyone caught on to their "game". Just my opinion, FWIW

thanks-smitty

[Ed LeDoux]

Hello Michael,

[They surely wouldnt be wearing an "Iowa Police" badge and try to represent a Dallas patrolman!] Anyone from the Dallas area, or surrounding areas, would probably know what an area badge looked like, or resembled. From most views, there didnt seem to be many people at that time who wasnt related, knew, or werent personal friends with someone from the Dallas PD. Im sure most people knew [maybe not exactly] what a Dallas PD badge looked like, or what it closely resembled.

Let me clarify a bit. The Iowa hat badge represents a common style of badge, I'm not saying the Hat Badge Man (HBM) is an Iowa officer.

These badges all are the same style or outline, that was the first step in ID'ing the HBM.

Now if we agree the style matches then we can find out what Departments used that style of Hat Badge in 1963 Texas.

It may be a Dept. Of Public Safety device for Highway Patrolmen's Hats.

You are correct that the parts need to match, i.e., hat badge-credentials-uniform-etc. That is why he is not DPD, because the Hat badge does not match the DPD Hat Devices (badges).

The Iowa badge was just a guide to get everyone looking for pictures of uniformed individuals with that emblem design on their caps. If we couldn't define what the badge looked like then we could never tell where he worked.

Hello Jim,

Here is the seizure man.

"Jerry Belknap a Dallas Morning News employee had a seizure near the TSBD- THE NEW YORKER

November 30, 1992 by Edward Jay Epstein

Since the spectator who suffered an epileptic seizure fifteen to twenty minutes before the motorcade's arrival was not identified by the Warren report, Jim Garrison had the hypothesis that the man was part of paramilitary group in charge of diverting the attention with a simulated seizure.

Actually, that man was Jerry Boyd Belknap, a Dallas Morning News employee. He had taken medication to cure a head wound he had suffered in a car accident when a child. He was rushed to Parkland hospital in an ambulance, but left the hospital without receiving any treatment. Later, Belknap declared he had left Parkland because of Kennedy's arrival shortly after he was admitted."

The only testimony I remember was:

Mr. Liebeler.

Now after you received your instructions at 8:45, what did you do?

Mr. Smith.

I proceeded to the intersection of Elm and Houston, and it was about 9:50 or 10 o'clock when I was on the corner there. At approximately 11:50 or 12 o'clock, there was a white male that had an epileptic seizure on the esplanade on Houston Street between Main and Elm. Well, I went down to see if any assistance was needed, and I stayed there until the white male was loaded into an ambulance and sent to a hospital. Then I proceeded back to my assignment.

Mr. Liebeler.

Were there any other officers there in connection with this fellow that had the epileptic fit?

Mr. Smith.

Yes; there was one more. He was a radio patrolman.

Mr. Liebeler.

Do you remember his name?

Mr. Smith.

I don't remember his name. I swear, I was trying to think of it before this even.

Mr. Liebeler.

He was a radio patrolman? You mean he was driving a motorcycle or had a car?

Mr. Smith.

No; he was assigned, I think, if I am not mistaken, I think he was assigned to Main and Houston, and he was down there with the man when arrived at the scene.

Mr. Liebeler.

So you called an ambulance, or an ambulance was called and this man was taken away, and you went back to the corner of Elm and Houston Streets?

Mr. Smith.

Yes.

Mr. Liebeler.

How many officers were assigned at Elm and Houston?

Mr. Smith.

Three of us.

Mr. Liebeler.

Who were the other two men?

Mr. Smith.

W. E. Barnett, and E. L. Smith. I think that is his initials. I know it is another Smith boy anyway.

Mr. Liebeler.

How did you station yourself when you got there?

Mr. Smith.

Just after we got the epileptic seizure en route to the hospital, I hadn't gotten back to the corner but just a few minutes until the motorcade was coming, so I stationed myself on Elm Street in the middle from the southeast curb of Elm and Houston and held traffic up.

Not that it didn't happen just it is not in the record. Anyone else know of any nurses that were in the plaza?

Ed

[Michael G. Smith]

Hello Michael,

[They surely wouldnt be wearing an "Iowa Police" badge and try to represent a Dallas patrolman!] Anyone from the Dallas area, or surrounding areas, would probably know what an area badge looked like, or resembled. From most views, there didnt seem to be many people at that time who wasnt related, knew, or werent personal friends with someone from the Dallas PD. Im sure most people knew [maybe not exactly] what a Dallas PD badge looked like, or what it closely resembled.

Let me clarify a bit. The Iowa hat badge represents a common style of badge, I'm not saying the Hat Badge Man (HBM) is an Iowa officer.

These badges all are the same style or outline, that was the first step in ID'ing the HBM.

Now if we agree the style matches then we can find out what Departments used that style of Hat Badge in 1963 Texas.

It may be a Dept. Of Public Safety device for Highway Patrolmen's Hats.

You are correct that the parts need to match, i.e., hat badge-credentials-uniform-etc. That is why he is not DPD, because the Hat badge does not match the DPD Hat Devices (badges).

The Iowa badge was just a guide to get everyone looking for pictures of uniformed individuals with that emblem design on their caps. If we couldn't define what the badge looked like then we could never tell where he worked.

Hello Jim,

Here is the seizure man.

"Jerry Belknap a Dallas Morning News employee had a seizure near the TSBD- THE NEW YORKER

November 30, 1992 by Edward Jay Epstein

Since the spectator who suffered an epileptic seizure fifteen to twenty minutes before the motorcade's arrival was not identified by the Warren report, Jim Garrison had the hypothesis that the man was part of paramilitary group in charge of diverting the attention with a simulated seizure.

Actually, that man was Jerry Boyd Belknap, a Dallas Morning News employee. He had taken medication to cure a head wound he had suffered in a car accident when a child. He was rushed to Parkland hospital in an ambulance, but left the hospital without receiving any treatment. Later, Belknap declared he had left Parkland because of Kennedy's arrival shortly after he was admitted."

The only testimony I remember was:

Mr. Liebeler.

Now after you received your instructions at 8:45, what did you do?

Mr. Smith.

I proceeded to the intersection of Elm and Houston, and it was about 9:50 or 10 o'clock when I was on the corner there. At approximately 11:50 or 12 o'clock, there was a white male that had an epileptic seizure on the esplanade on Houston Street between Main and Elm. Well, I went down to see if any assistance was needed, and I stayed there until the white male was loaded into an ambulance and sent to a hospital. Then I proceeded back to my assignment.

Mr. Liebeler.

Were there any other officers there in connection with this fellow that had the epileptic fit?

Mr. Smith.

Yes; there was one more. He was a radio patrolman.

Mr. Liebeler.

Do you remember his name?

Mr. Smith.

I don't remember his name. I swear, I was trying to think of it before this even.

Mr. Liebeler.

He was a radio patrolman? You mean he was driving a motorcycle or had a car?

Mr. Smith.

No; he was assigned, I think, if I am not mistaken, I think he was assigned to Main and Houston, and he was down there with the man when arrived at the scene.

Mr. Liebeler.

So you called an ambulance, or an ambulance was called and this man was taken away, and you went back to the corner of Elm and Houston Streets?

Mr. Smith.

Yes.

Mr. Liebeler.

How many officers were assigned at Elm and Houston?

Mr. Smith.

Three of us.

Mr. Liebeler.

Who were the other two men?

Mr. Smith.

W. E. Barnett, and E. L. Smith. I think that is his initials. I know it is another Smith boy anyway.

Mr. Liebeler.

How did you station yourself when you got there?

Mr. Smith.

Just after we got the epileptic seizure en route to the hospital, I hadn't gotten back to the corner but just a few minutes until the motorcade was coming, so I stationed myself on Elm Street in the middle from the southeast curb of Elm and Houston and held traffic up.

Not that it didn't happen just it is not in the record. Anyone else know of any nurses that were in the plaza?

Ed

Ed, Sorry if you took my post about the Iowa badge, literally. I just posted that as a "general" idea of what i meant. Meaning being, that you wouldnt wear some "type of out of state badge", while trying to represent some other type of unit in Dallas. I appologize if you too it that way. No harm, no foul. Merry Christmas! thanks-smitty

[John Dolva]

Ed(quote)"These badges all are the same style or outline, that was the first step in ID'ing the HBM.

Now if we agree the style matches then we can find out what Departments used that style of Hat Badge in 1963 Texas.

It may be a Dept. Of Public Safety device for Highway Patrolmen's Hats."

"Anyone else know of any nurses that were in the plaza?"

Nurses: No, I've called it nurse because somone else did at another time of looking at this pair. I have no idea what a Dallas nurse of that time looks like. I guess she looks very well groomed with a hairband, and short sleeves etc.

Badge: That rings a bell. When looking at it I came across some Dept pub S , Highway patrol from Mississippi that had features that matched. But nothing with the good match of outline you have there. On the right track. I note the top of the eagle looks straight, not rounded.