1959 Olds Station Wagon

[J. William King]

Hello Joel -- In no way do I say that the leads on "your" Olds should not be followed up on. It's very mysterious indeed, and is worth looking into. It would be great to find out if the colors match. There is no way to get the paint code from the VIN, however. That information would be on the data plate. I'm afraid that white and blue is probably a pretty popular color combination. My dad's 1958 Olds Fiesta wagon was white with blue roof/trim for example.

As for my car shreadder comment, I was just pointing out that it were me, and I was trying to get rid of a car that could tie me to the assassination of a president, I would find another way to do it. Removing the VIN and data plates, burning and or dumping the car in a lake or river (or shreading it) would make me feel more secure than selling it, giving it away, and shipping it cross country, all of which leaves a paper trail.

From looking at the documents, it seems that someone sold or traded the car to Budget Auto Sales, who in turn sold it to Stuart Martin (complete with a lien) in Nov, 1964. On the surface, that does not involve Mr. Martin with anything that happened a year previous. That is assuming that Budget Auto Sales wasn't being used to "launder" the car/title, which is always possible. However, just because it is possible doesn't mean that it happened. The key, as you say, is to find out who owned the car before Budget got it.

JWK

JWK

[William Kelly]

Hello Joel -- In no way do I say that the leads on "your" Olds should not be followed up on. It's very mysterious indeed, and is worth looking into. It would be great to find out if the colors match. There is no way to get the paint code from the VIN, however. That information would be on the data plate. I'm afraid that white and blue is probably a pretty popular color combination. My dad's 1958 Olds Fiesta wagon was white with blue roof/trim for example.

As for my car shreadder comment, I was just pointing out that it were me, and I was trying to get rid of a car that could tie me to the assassination of a president, I would find another way to do it. Removing the VIN and data plates, burning and or dumping the car in a lake or river (or shreading it) would make me feel more secure than selling it, giving it away, and shipping it cross country, all of which leaves a paper trail.

From looking at the documents, it seems that someone sold or traded the car to Budget Auto Sales, who in turn sold it to Stuart Martin (complete with a lien) in Nov, 1964. On the surface, that does not involve Mr. Martin with anything that happened a year previous. That is assuming that Budget Auto Sales wasn't being used to "launder" the car/title, which is always possible. However, just because it is possible doesn't mean that it happened. The key, as you say, is to find out who owned the car before Budget got it. JWK JWK

Is there an address for Budget Auto Sales?

BK

Edited January 15, 2007 by William Kelly

[Greg Parker]

Is Joel now a member on the Forum?

Slightly edited / updated from when I originally emailed it around / posted it...brought to my attention originally by Steve Thomas - thanks Steve.

The recent relevation of a sighting by an 85 year old woman caller into a radio show - as posted by Douglas Caddy, becomes even more interesting!

FROM Coast to Coast with George Noory 11-22-06

Caller named Velma who lives hundred miles From Dallas, lived in Dallas at time, had her car parked behind TSBD and saw shooter with Very High Powered Rifle come out of back of TSBD, there was grey dove colored old one seated Plymouth car with man who had felt hat wide band and had on suit, had black hair and real heavy eyebrows, looked at her kinda dirty. A police car come told man to move, the man didn't move right away, so police man got out, who she found out later was Tippit, and said I told you to move that car. Then the man went straight on and drove around bldg that was across the street, Tippit went the other way and must have met back there. Said she had not told anyone because she had four children to support and didn't want to get shot. Host George Noory says he will continue with her when they return from commercial........

Velma: ...high-powered rifle, it was no bolt action...

Noory: Let me ask you please because that rifle that they said Oswald used to kill Kennedy was apparently left upstairs, you're saying you saw someone else come out with a high powered rifle..?

V: OK, I'm sitting in my car and there's a grey, dark, old, one-seated, Plymouth car sittin there, and there's a man with a felt hat on with a wide band on it and he had on a suit, and he had black hair and real heavy eyebrows; he looked at me kinda dirty.

Well about that time a police car come and told this man to move, and he didn't move right away and police got out of his car , and I know later it was Tippit. He told him to move that car. Well then this man..went straight on around the big building...

Not likely at all that this was Tippit.

N: Did you say this to the Warren Commission?

V: I haven't told anybody because I had four children, had to support them, I didn't want to get shot.

N: Well what did the shooter look like when he came out?

V: Well, I'm sitting there and police had made this grey car move...he went into the parkin lot right across but the man comin out of the book building could not see that grey car then. So this man, I'm sitting looking in that direction, and all at once this man was...like in the Eisenhower jacket, you know the little short jacket...he comes running out, holding this real, high-powered rifle in his right hand with it pointin straight up in the air. And he is running so fast that he didn't realize that grey car was gone until he got almost to it and then he turned real fast, turned left and run toward that underpass. Well about that time, Tippitt...there was no street that run toward that underpass from where we were, back of the building, so Tippitt cut across that grass and right down that hill, and that's the last I saw him. Later I heard that this man in this grey car was named Elrod.

N: Elrod. How old would you have said this gunman was?

Here, the interviewer seems confused. She has the "getaway driver" as Elrod - which is even less likely than Tippit being the cop moving him along. Elrod was arrested walking along the railroad tracks after a report went out of a man seen walking along there carrying a rifle. Elrod had no rifle on arrest.

V: something in his 30's, I'd think.

N: Did he look military?

V: well, he knew how to handle a gun. That gun was so well kept, the wood was so shiny.

N: When he went running, he kept the rifle with him?

V: The rifle? His hand was never moved. His hand was about the height of his right shoulder...and all the time he's running

N: Were other people there to witness him running out of the building?

V: No, I'm the only one because I don't know if that man in the grey car saw him. But that grey car was later seen up there at the theatre...so he was picked that man up...when he got lost there in the parkin lot, this man didn't see him, he didn't wait, I mean he ran just as fast as he could. He was running so fast that the wind was catching his jacket, blowing it straight up behind.

N: And the police officer who you thought was Tippitt was chasing him?

V: Yes, Tippitt...he was suspicious seeing that car. I don't know why he never noticed me or bothered me but he made that car go on but then Tippitt circled and got behind me up the street so he was lost after he made that grey car move.

N: After all these years, how come you're saying this now?

V: Well I was supporting myself and four children, I didn't want to get shot.

N: You were convinced they would have gotten you?

V: They would have; nobody else saw it but me.

N: What about now, are you willing to...

V: I had a man from overseas contact me, and he wanted Jim Marrs to get in touch with me...some way this man got in touch with my daughter on the computer.

N: Velma, how old are you?

V: I'm 85; I was 42 then.

N: You are convinced that that person running out of the building was not the Lee Harvey Oswald that we all know about?

V: I don't think so; he was about the size of him but from what I know it was a different gun...They found Oswald's gun in the building but this is a different man and a different gun, I'm convinced.

N: You do know that you could have changed the course of this investigation?

V: Well, I didn't want to get shot.

N: Well what about now?

V: Well, I'm 85, if they shoot me...hee..hee..hee

N: So you want the truth out?

V: I want the truth out, I get tired of hearing Oswald was the only shooter...this man was a professional.

N: Would you submit to a lie detector test?

V: Well certainly, I don't have any reason not to because what I'm telling you is what I saw.

N: We're going to follow up with this. We will put Jim Marrs in touch with you as well...because you may very well have some of the biggest information of the entire John F. Kennedy assassination.

The description of her gunman:

about 30, about same height/build as Oswald, wearing grey Eisenhower style jacket, carrying a high powered rifle.

She claims no one else saw what she saw, and that she never reported what she witnessed - yet the broadcast descriptions were very similar. The witness has never been identified. It was not Brennan.

The broadcast descriptions: "unknown white male, approximately 30, slender build, height 5 [static] to be armed with what is thought to be a .30-caliber rifle."

"About 30, 5 foot 10, 165, & carrying what looked like a 30-30 or some type of a Winchester...."

Does anyone know if Jim Marrs has contacted her, and if so, what his opinion is? The basics of it might be true, but it does seem embelished with things she's read/heard (or perhaps, more accurately, misread/misheard).

Here is link to Coast to Coast AM show from 11-22-2006

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/jfk.htm Note:this is free. Only first part of call though.

or,

http://www.coasttocoastam.com/shows/2006/11/22.html#recap Note:this is not free.

A good show and a must listen.

[Greg Parker]

sorry, dup post

Edited January 15, 2007 by Greg Parker

[Greg Parker]

Anyone got Velma's last name. Just found a very interesting reference to a Velma in the DPD files...

Is Joel now a member on the Forum?

Slightly edited / updated from when I originally emailed it around / posted it...brought to my attention originally by Steve Thomas - thanks Steve.

The recent relevation of a sighting by an 85 year old woman caller into a radio show - as posted by Douglas Caddy, becomes even more interesting!

FROM Coast to Coast with George Noory 11-22-06

Caller named Velma who lives hundred miles From Dallas, lived in Dallas at time, had her car parked behind TSBD and saw shooter with Very High Powered Rifle come out of back of TSBD, there was grey dove colored old one seated Plymouth car with man who had felt hat wide band and had on suit, had black hair and real heavy eyebrows, looked at her kinda dirty. A police car come told man to move, the man didn't move right away, so police man got out, who she found out later was Tippit, and said I told you to move that car. Then the man went straight on and drove around bldg that was across the street, Tippit went the other way and must have met back there. Said she had not told anyone because she had four children to support and didn't want to get shot. Host George Noory says he will continue with her when they return from commercial........

[Steve Thomas]

Joel,

I have presented only what was known personally to me, or what was said to me by my father. All we know is that there was A 1959 station wagon, Oldsmobile S88 shipped suspiciously from Dallas, AND NOT that THE Lee Bower's Olds was shipped. I hope my intention is clear - to uncover more information on this car and owner so as to determine IF it is more or less probable that this report correlates with Bower's. Yes, anything more should be taken with well-salted skepticism.

I sent this email to Joel back on 3/26/2004:

Joel,

I aksed a former Dallas policeman if he know anything about Budget Auto

Sales.

Here is what he wrote me...

"I had some dealings with Budget Auto Sales at 4917 Ross Avenue in Dallas

when I was working Hit and Run Accidents. The guy that owned it was Don

Boggs and he always claimed to be related to a motorcycle officer we had

named Eddy Boggs, who quit and was elected Sheriff in Johnson County, Texas.

Eddy lost his position after three or fours terms and I haven't seen him in

years.

I guess Don Boggs is still in the auto sales business, but I haven't talked

with him since I retired.

There were several auto dealers in the same area of Ross Avenue and several

of them were bookmakers, one named Chapman, who owned Chapman Motors ended

up in the Federal Prison and turned informant and received an early release.

He had the guts to return to Dallas and is still alive remarkably. There

was a rumor that R.D. Matthews was in Dallas looking for Chapman and was

picked up by the F.B.I. and questioned and they found out he was in Dallas

to put his mother in a nursing home after she was discharged from the

hospital. In any event Chapman went to Mexico bass fishing-------"

For what it's worth.

Steve

Steve Thomas

[William Kelly]

Joel,

I have presented only what was known personally to me, or what was said to me by my father. All we know is that there was A 1959 station wagon, Oldsmobile S88 shipped suspiciously from Dallas, AND NOT that THE Lee Bower's Olds was shipped. I hope my intention is clear - to uncover more information on this car and owner so as to determine IF it is more or less probable that this report correlates with Bower's. Yes, anything more should be taken with well-salted skepticism.

I sent this email to Joel back on 3/26/2004:

Joel,

I aksed a former Dallas policeman if he know anything about Budget Auto

Sales.

Here is what he wrote me...

"I had some dealings with Budget Auto Sales at 4917 Ross Avenue in Dallas

when I was working Hit and Run Accidents. The guy that owned it was Don

Boggs and he always claimed to be related to a motorcycle officer we had

named Eddy Boggs, who quit and was elected Sheriff in Johnson County, Texas.

Eddy lost his position after three or fours terms and I haven't seen him in

years.

I guess Don Boggs is still in the auto sales business, but I haven't talked

with him since I retired.

There were several auto dealers in the same area of Ross Avenue and several

of them were bookmakers, one named Chapman, who owned Chapman Motors ended up in the Federal Prison and turned informant and received an early release.

He had the guts to return to Dallas and is still alive remarkably. There

was a rumor that R.D. Matthews was in Dallas looking for Chapman and was

picked up by the F.B.I. and questioned and they found out he was in Dallas

to put his mother in a nursing home after she was discharged from the

hospital. In any event Chapman went to Mexico bass fishing-------"

For what it's worth. Steve Thomas

Thanks Steve,

I was thinking of Sue's Used Car Lot - 3400 Live Oak - owned by Mrs. Harry B. Hammond, and where a crew hung out that included Jack Ruby, Ray "Luck Moran" BGrondo (of San Antonio), J. Robert Todd (safecracker and w/ deLois Green mob), Ralph Paul and Joe Bonds. Paul and Bonds later ran the Sky Club.

There was also a used car lot in Oak Cliff near the Tippit shooting that I'm trying to get a make on - does anyone know the name of it? Two of the employees there walked to 10th & Patton, so it can't be far.

BK

[Joel D. Gruhn]

Hello Joel -- In no way do I say that the leads on "your" Olds should not be followed up on. It's very mysterious indeed, and is worth looking into. It would be great to find out if the colors match. There is no way to get the paint code from the VIN, however. That information would be on the data plate. I'm afraid that white and blue is probably a pretty popular color combination. My dad's 1958 Olds Fiesta wagon was white with blue roof/trim for example.

I just went over the taped interview with Karl to refresh my memory. He recalls the Lipski Oldsmobile as white in color. I asked him (because of the Bowers testimony) if there was any blue on the car and he could not recall one way or the other.

My apologies to the readers here if this seems to be an investigation in process, rather than a finished report. I am planning how it may be possible to either tie this car into the assassination, or alternatively, to rule it out. All comments and suggestions would be appreciated.

jdg

[Steve Thomas]

Bill,

Is there an address for Budget Auto Sales?

BK

It appears that Budget Auto Sales is still in business under the name

BUDGET Car Sales of Dallas

4917 Ross Ave

Dallas, Tx 75206

(214) 823-6200 or (888) 895-0818

here's their web site:

http://www.budgetcarsalesdallas.com/

There is also a Budget Auto Sales in Dallas:

Budget Auto 214-824-9922 2625 Live Oak St Dallas TX 75204

and

Budget Auto Sales 214-398-5747 1021 S Buckner Blvd Dallas TX 75217

Steve Thomas

[William Kelly]

Thanks Steve,

It should be possible to trace the ownership of the Olds both ways - who owned it, who owned it before and who it was sold to.

Both the owners and the buyers should be on the paperwork, which should be maintained by the State Division of Motor Vehicles and the car dealers involved.

BK

[Robert Howard]

From the FWIW Dept.

1958 Cadillac Sedan White over Turquoise

1962 FL Lisc.

1WW 647

Belonged to Frank Fiorini aka Sturgis