The Three Tramps

[Jack White]

Dawn...it was not a matter of "reasoning". Fletch told me several times that he SHARED

AN OFFICE at the Pentagon with Lansdale for several years. When you are around someone

that much, you know what they look like from any angle. When he first got a copy of the

photo, he mailed it to another acquaintance without comment, and got the reply "WHAT IS

LANSDALE DOING IN THAT PHOTO?"

Jack

It's hard to dismiss such personal identification but why would Lansdale walk right into a photo? That makes no sense.

How would Landsdale KNOW that he was "walking into a photo"??? The photographer was somewhere

to the rear. Many operatives who were present did not know they were being photographed by

"someone" "somewhere". See the studies of James Richards.

Jack

[Charles Drago]

Jack,

Thanks for the heads-up on the Richards post.

I'll take the time to research his offerings and keep an open mind. But I'm still most interested in examining independent tests of the skills and claims of a Lois Gibson.

As I may have queried on another thread: Has an expert in facial reconstruction from skeletal remains ever been given the skull of a known (although not to the reconstructionist) subject and come up with a face that can be compared to the "original"?

As for Lansdale walking into a photo trap: Given the sheer number of photographers in the Plaza that day, it is simply counterintuitive to accept that an individual sufficiently wary of being identified would have traipsed into the middle of such a scene.

"Counterintuitive" at least to me.

Charles

[Chris Brown]

Dawn...it was not a matter of "reasoning". Fletch told me several times that he SHARED

AN OFFICE at the Pentagon with Lansdale for several years. When you are around someone

that much, you know what they look like from any angle. When he first got a copy of the

photo, he mailed it to another acquaintance without comment, and got the reply "WHAT IS

LANSDALE DOING IN THAT PHOTO?"

Jack

It's hard to dismiss such personal identification but why would Lansdale walk right into a photo? That makes no sense.

Since the person is walking away from the photo taker, its possible the person wasn't aware of the photo being taken.

Chris Brown.

[Guest Mark Valenti]

Since the person is walking away from the photo taker, its possible the person wasn't aware of the photo being taken.

Chris Brown.

The photographer can't be more than ten feet away from the tramps. The photo wasn't taken with a telephoto lens, was it?

"Lansdale" had to walk parallel to the photographer at some point, right?

He came from down the street, directly toward cops and tramps.

And a photographer.

There were cameras all over the Plaza that day, but this camera was well within sight of anyone walking in that direction.

It's possible that "Lansdale" saw the cops, the tramps and one other man standing there without seeing a camera. But again, there were people snapping pictures all over the place.

If that is Lansdale, then Lansdale was an incompetent, foolhardy boob who allowed himself to be photographed at the scene of the crime of the century.

Not plausible, imo.

[James Richards]

Thanks to everyone who has chimed in here.

I take the point about plotters being present in Dealey Plaza but one has to remember that these people were not known to the wider public and that what actually went down post assassination and what was the original plan, might be two different things.

In an interview, Roy Hargraves made the point that in certain operations, handlers would be present on the ground to show that it was a genuine op, to share risk and to be close by if it all went wrong.

At the time of the Tramps arrest, maybe Oswald was supposed to be dead (or on his way out of the country) but the fact that he was in police custody may have had personnel scrambling and in a position to be exposed. Besides, this was the assassination of the American President, not some everyday operation.

As to the possible spooks being present in Dealey Plaza, I submit Lucien Conein, Rip Robertson and Clarence Ward Bishop who were all positioned within 15 feet of each other at the corner of Main and Houston. I also think that particular trio were responsible for handling the bulk of the assassination participants.

FWIW.

James

[Myra Bronstein]

Thanks to everyone who has chimed in here.

I take the point about plotters being present in Dealey Plaza but one has to remember that these people were not known to the wider public and that what actually went down post assassination and what was the original plan, might be two different things.

In an interview, Roy Hargraves made the point that in certain operations, handlers would be present on the ground to show that it was a genuine op, to share risk and to be close by if it all went wrong.

At the time of the Tramps arrest, maybe Oswald was supposed to be dead (or on his way out of the country) but the fact that he was in police custody may have had personnel scrambling and in a position to be exposed. Besides, this was the assassination of the American President, not some everyday operation.

As to the possible spooks being present in Dealey Plaza, I submit Lucien Conein, Rip Robertson and Clarence Ward Bishop who were all positioned within 15 feet of each other at the corner of Main and Houston. I also think that particular trio were responsible for handling the bulk of the assassination participants.

FWIW.

James

So you said that "Harrelson was...a close physical match for the Tall Tramp" James.

But do you think he was the tall tramp?

Chime in!

[James Richards]

Thanks to everyone who has chimed in here.

I take the point about plotters being present in Dealey Plaza but one has to remember that these people were not known to the wider public and that what actually went down post assassination and what was the original plan, might be two different things.

In an interview, Roy Hargraves made the point that in certain operations, handlers would be present on the ground to show that it was a genuine op, to share risk and to be close by if it all went wrong.

At the time of the Tramps arrest, maybe Oswald was supposed to be dead (or on his way out of the country) but the fact that he was in police custody may have had personnel scrambling and in a position to be exposed. Besides, this was the assassination of the American President, not some everyday operation.

As to the possible spooks being present in Dealey Plaza, I submit Lucien Conein, Rip Robertson and Clarence Ward Bishop who were all positioned within 15 feet of each other at the corner of Main and Houston. I also think that particular trio were responsible for handling the bulk of the assassination participants.

FWIW.

James

So you said that "Harrelson was...a close physical match for the Tall Tramp" James.

But do you think he was the tall tramp?

Chime in!

Hi Myra,

I will chime away.

Yes, I do think the Tall Tramp was Harrelson. As to the other two, the jury is still out. Also, just because one might be sinister, does not necessarily men the other two were. Sometimes things are not as they seem.

As to what part Harrelson played, I submit he was as Prouty suggested, an actor. Someone handled to be there to muddy the waters, which is exactly what has happened, and I don't think he was the only one. This is why the suspect list for this assassination is so long and varied.

Jack Lawrence, Jean Souetre, Jim Braden, Chauncey Holt, Loran Hall, Roscoe White, all spring to mind here as being assorted tools of disinformation.

By the time of the Tramps arrest, the real participants would have been assembled in various safe houses waiting to be moved out.

IMO of course.

James

Edited March 22, 2007 by James Richards

[Charles Drago]

"In an interview, Roy Hargraves made the point that in certain operations, handlers would be present on the ground to show that it was a genuine op, to share risk and to be close by if it all went wrong."

James,

Hargraves might not have been prevaricating here. I would submit, however, that regardless of the latitude you allow to the term "handler," Lansdale would not be included.

Conein? Sure, if he were hands-on with the planning of the ambush, the placement of the gunmen, etc.

And were others sent to muddy the waters? Without question!

But to this observer's mind, if we wish to find prime movers and their highest-level facilitators, we need to look to the east.

And I don't mean the Dal-Tex Building.

Charles

[Robert Charles-Dunne]

I take the point about plotters being present in Dealey Plaza but one has to remember that these people were not known to the wider public and that what actually went down post assassination and what was the original plan, might be two different things.

In an interview, Roy Hargraves made the point that in certain operations, handlers would be present on the ground to show that it was a genuine op, to share risk and to be close by if it all went wrong.

It was not unknown for high level CIA operatives to risk getting their hair mussed if they felt the occasion warranted the risk. The following is from Larry Hancock's "Someone Would Have Talked," page 145, and it describes a similarly bizarre event [albeit not quite so counterintuitive as being present during a treasonous Presidential assassination]:

"In April, Harvey and Ted Shackley, the new head of the JM/WAVE facility, personally dropped off a U-Haul trailer full of explosives and technical devices to Tony Varona. In exchange, Varona was to organize contacts for another poisoning attempt [on Castro]. The fact that Shackley and Harvey personally conducted this operation shows the level of secrecy involved and the separation from normal JM/WAVE operations."

Surely, these two could have found a conduit for delivering the materiel to Varona, but chose instead to ensure the security of the operation by undertaking the task themselves. Similarly, if a handful of CIA operatives arrogated unto themselves the privilege of eliminating a President they felt unworthy of the post, they courted increased risk of exposure and punishment for each and every non-essential person they drafted into the plan. The smaller the number of players, the increased chances for success.

One also cannot discount the hubris that might have driven them to be present for such an event, or the fact that they considered themselves beyond the reach of the law. If they were present because they were part of the operation to kill Kennedy, their arrogant sense of invincibility has been borne out by the subsequent failure to identify them and punish them for their crimes, hasn't it?

More recently, we've seen prima facie evidence that fairly high level CIA personnel were on the scene of the RFK assassination at the Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles. Again, it would seem foolhardy for them to be present at so risky an occasion, but it did take nearly four decades for the first person to recognize them in photos of that evening's rally, didn't it?

[Jack White]

Since the person is walking away from the photo taker, its possible the person wasn't aware of the photo being taken.

Chris Brown.

The photographer can't be more than ten feet away from the tramps. The photo wasn't taken with a telephoto lens, was it?

"Lansdale" had to walk parallel to the photographer at some point, right?

He came from down the street, directly toward cops and tramps.

And a photographer.

There were cameras all over the Plaza that day, but this camera was well within sight of anyone walking in that direction.

It's possible that "Lansdale" saw the cops, the tramps and one other man standing there without seeing a camera. But again, there were people snapping pictures all over the place.

If that is Lansdale, then Lansdale was an incompetent, foolhardy boob who allowed himself to be photographed at the scene of the crime of the century.

Not plausible, imo.

It is not plausible to think that the only scenario is one with a stationary photographer

being approached by Lansdale, and Lansdale THEN WALKS PAST HIM. Another

scenario is that the photographer was walking westward BEHIND LANSDALE, and

Lansdale was unaware of him. A more likely scenario is that the photographer

was near the entrance to the depository when he saw the cops and tramps approaching

and rushed westward to shoot his photo, but did not run fast enough to catch up

with Lansdale, who was already going that way. Lansdale was not an incompetent

foolhardy boob, but was judged by Prouty, along with Conein, to be the BEST OF

THE CIA SCENARIO PLANNERS. Prouty said they cleverly inserted things into their

scenarios like FAKE POLICEMEN and FAKE TRAMPS.

Jack

[Jack White]

"In an interview, Roy Hargraves made the point that in certain operations, handlers would be present on the ground to show that it was a genuine op, to share risk and to be close by if it all went wrong."

James,

Hargraves might not have been prevaricating here. I would submit, however, that regardless of the latitude you allow to the term "handler," Lansdale would not be included.

Conein? Sure, if he were hands-on with the planning of the ambush, the placement of the gunmen, etc.

And were others sent to muddy the waters? Without question!

But to this observer's mind, if we wish to find prime movers and their highest-level facilitators, we need to look to the east.

And I don't mean the Dal-Tex Building.

Charles

Charles...what you are missing is the gloating sense of BEING THERE TO SEE THE

BASTARD GET HIS BRAINS BLOWN OUT. What risk was there? Nobody in Dallas

knew them. Standing anonymously in a sidewalk crowd posed no risk. SATISFACTION

is the reason so many of them were present. Who would have recognized any of

them? Nobody I can think of. How many CIA agents would YOU recognize if you

saw them on the street?

Jack

[Charles Drago]

Jack,

At least three from this site.

But back on point: I understand -- I hope -- the emotions that would drive some of the killers to want to witness their handiwork as it was ultimately crafted. Blood is blood, and we dare not discount the primitive elements and motivations in this story.

But an Ed Lansdale, to the degree that I can figure him, would understand that it was not the recognition of the people on the scene that ultimately would threaten him and his masters, but rather the recognition of history. And so he would not be there that day.

I believe -- as oppose to "know" and "can prove" -- that the prime movers of the murder signed their work, so to speak. I've written of this to Sterling Seagrave recently.

For the same reasons I believe -- as above -- that a significant amount of smoking gun evidence (unretouched autopsy photos, unaltered original motion picture films, etc.) exists to this day.

Hubris is hubris, after all.

But I don't buy the Lansdale ID for a minute.

Would that I am wrong.

Charles

[Guest John Woods]

It is all but unthinkable that a main facilitator of the murder of a president would allow him/herself to be within a thousand miles of the operation as it goes down.

To argue that Edward Landsdale played such a role in the assassination yet would be in Dallas on November 22, 1963 is to ascribe to this consummate professional the weaknesses and errors in judgment common to the rankest of amateurs.

As a writer of fiction I am quite capable of creating a Landsdale-esque character whose personal hubris and hatred for his target are sufficiently massive to outweigh professional and operational sensibilities and compel him to bear witness to his vile work. But viewing the hit from a so-called God spot is one thing, and going into the camera-infested weeds to take a hand-off from EHH is quite another matter.

Has anyone evere examined the available archives with the intent of finding posterior views of Landsdale? Have measurements of the height of the figure in question been undertaken and compared to the suspect's vertical dimensions?

As for Lois Gibson and all the other so-called experts in facial recognition and skull reconstructions are concerned: Where are the blind studies that substantiate their professional claims?

If Landsdale and Hunt were in Dealey Plaza that day, it was for the purpose of patsying.

And neither of the above qualifies as a patsy in this case.

Charles

Charles, as a newcomer to the forum, you are unaware of the numerous photo

studies of member James Richards showing that numerous high ranking CIA

operatives were present in the plaza to observe the assassination. I think his

studies are archived in the photo section. Or maybe James will give us a

quick summary of all the spooks who may have been there.

Jack

Jack,

Could you please refresh my memory as to the earpiece in the police officer

left ear.

thanks

johnw

[Guest John Woods]

It is all but unthinkable that a main facilitator of the murder of a president would allow him/herself to be within a thousand miles of the operation as it goes down.

To argue that Edward Landsdale played such a role in the assassination yet would be in Dallas on November 22, 1963 is to ascribe to this consummate professional the weaknesses and errors in judgment common to the rankest of amateurs.

As a writer of fiction I am quite capable of creating a Landsdale-esque character whose personal hubris and hatred for his target are sufficiently massive to outweigh professional and operational sensibilities and compel him to bear witness to his vile work. But viewing the hit from a so-called God spot is one thing, and going into the camera-infested weeds to take a hand-off from EHH is quite another matter.

Has anyone evere examined the available archives with the intent of finding posterior views of Landsdale? Have measurements of the height of the figure in question been undertaken and compared to the suspect's vertical dimensions?

As for Lois Gibson and all the other so-called experts in facial recognition and skull reconstructions are concerned: Where are the blind studies that substantiate their professional claims?

If Landsdale and Hunt were in Dealey Plaza that day, it was for the purpose of patsying.

And neither of the above qualifies as a patsy in this case.

Charles

Charles, as a newcomer to the forum, you are unaware of the numerous photo

studies of member James Richards showing that numerous high ranking CIA

operatives were present in the plaza to observe the assassination. I think his

studies are archived in the photo section. Or maybe James will give us a

quick summary of all the spooks who may have been there.

Jack

Duplicate.............................

Edited March 22, 2007 by John Woods

[Lee Forman]

Peculiar. Sometimes I wonder if Weberman and Canfield weren't on to something when they suggested retouching had occurred.

Anyway - got a nice scan of the Harrelson looking individ's pants - for another post. Found this distracting in the meanwhile.

- lee