Thomas Graves Posted April 28, 2007 Share Posted April 28, 2007 (edited) P.S. I'm a-bumpin' it now and I'm a-gonna keep on a-bumpin' it 'till I get a rational. research-oriented response...James, Robin, Lee...? (Thomas Graves) Thomas, I'm not sure I can offer a rational, research-oriented response but I guess the thing here is that the whole Bishop scenario is likely more complicated than first thought. Even if Phillips was the Bishop that Veciana saw and I think this is highly likely, Moore is one individual who has escaped major scrutiny and given his connections to de Mohrenschildt and by association to Bush and Devine, some obvious questions come to mind. Given that Hal Feeney also used the Bishop handle adds color especially since he was possible Dallas participant Tony Izquierdo's case officer, and throw in Gordon Campbell as another using the name and one is left wondering what it all means. So, who was running who here? I fear there is too many preconceived notions regarding this while the subtleties of relevant information remain buried deep within skilfull trade craft. Onward! James _________________________ Thanks James, As you know, I value quite highly your observations and your theories. I understand the significance of the name "Bishop" in the context of the assassination, and the fact that it was apparently used by several different operatives.... Regardless, in comparing "The Sketch" to the photos of all the possible CIA dudes who might have been LHO's controller, I think that the definitive answer lies in the details. The details I'm referring to are the representations in the sketch of warts, wens, moles, splotches, freckles, and/or birthmarks which are clearly visible on the left side of the man's face in the sketch which are also clearly visible in the photo of one David Atlee Phillips. So far, no one on The Forum has addressed this minor observation on my part (regarding the warts, wens, moles, splotches, freckles, and/or birthmarks)... Of all the candidates I've seen so far (including Moore), the only one who has similar marks on the left side of his face is David Atlee Phillips.... Onward Ho! --Thomas __________________________ bump __________________________ Edited April 28, 2007 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted April 28, 2007 Share Posted April 28, 2007 (edited) P.S. I'm a-bumpin' it now and I'm a-gonna keep on a-bumpin' it 'till I get a rational. research-oriented response...James, Robin, Lee...? (Thomas Graves) Thomas, I'm not sure I can offer a rational, research-oriented response but I guess the thing here is that the whole Bishop scenario is likely more complicated than first thought. Even if Phillips was the Bishop that Veciana saw and I think this is highly likely, Moore is one individual who has escaped major scrutiny and given his connections to de Mohrenschildt and by association to Bush and Devine, some obvious questions come to mind. Given that Hal Feeney also used the Bishop handle adds color especially since he was possible Dallas participant Tony Izquierdo's case officer, and throw in Gordon Campbell as another using the name and one is left wondering what it all means. So, who was running who here? I fear there is too many preconceived notions regarding this while the subtleties of relevant information remain buried deep within skilfull trade craft. Onward! James _________________________ Thanks James, As you know, I value highly your observations and your theories. I totally understand the potential significance of the name "Bishop" in the context of the assassination, especially in view of the fact that it was used by several different very suspicious operatives.... Regardless, in comparing "The Sketch" to the photos of all the possible CIA dudes who might have been LHO's controller, I think that the definitive answer lies in the details. The details I'm referring to are the representations in the sketch of warts, wens, moles, splotches, freckles, and/or birthmarks which are clearly visible on the left side of the man's face in the sketch and which are also clearly visible in the photo of one David Atlee Phillips. So far, no one on The Forum has addressed this minor observation on my part. Of all the candidates I've seen so far (including Moore), the only one who has similar marks on the left side of his face is David Atlee Phillips.... Onward Ho! --Thomas __________________________ bump __________________________ Edited April 28, 2007 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Raymond Carroll Posted May 2, 2007 Share Posted May 2, 2007 Veciana saw Maurice Bishop with Oswald. Slight correction: Veciana SAYS he saw Bishop with Oswald. It was just a minor detail he happened to let slip in passing, no big deal that he had met the notorious "assassin." Veciana told Gaeton Fonzi (THE LAST INVESTIGATION) that the young man walked off shortly after he arrived. It seems he recently told the authors of ULTIMATE SACRIFICE a slightly different story. The new improved story is that "Oswald" discussed the assassination of Fidel Castro before he walked away. Veciana's composite sketch of Bishop was identified by Phillips' family as Phillips. The sketch does look like Phillips, among others, but it is actually a sketch of James Stewart from the movie MR. SMITH GOES TO WASHINGTON. To sow confusion, no doubt... No doubt at all. David Phillips was in Mexico, Lee Oswald was in New Orleans, and Veciana was confined by the Federal Parole Board to Dade County, Florida, during the time Veciana claims this little menage-a-trois went down in Dallas. Vincent Salandria wasn't kidding when he warned Fonzi that "they will keep you very, very busy." Even if Phillips was the Bishop that Veciana saw and I think this is highly likely, Moore is one individual who has escaped major scrutiny and given his connections to de Mohrenschildt and by association to Bush and Devine, some obvious questions come to mind.Onward! James James: I think we must agree to disagree about Phillips, but your observation is spot on. While Fonzi was working his butt off to get Veciana to testify, Edward Jay Epstein flew the coop and dodged a subpoena for the duration of the the LAST INVESTIGATION. I recently emailed Epstein to ask if his conversations with De Mohrenschildt, specifically relating to J.Walton Moore, were tape recorded and if the recordings would be made available. I have given up expecting a reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted May 2, 2007 Share Posted May 2, 2007 (edited) P.S. I'm a-bumpin' it now and I'm a-gonna keep on a-bumpin' it 'till I get a rational. research-oriented response...James, Robin, Lee...? (Thomas Graves) Thomas, I'm not sure I can offer a rational, research-oriented response but I guess the thing here is that the whole Bishop scenario is likely more complicated than first thought. Even if Phillips was the Bishop that Veciana saw and I think this is highly likely, Moore is one individual who has escaped major scrutiny and given his connections to de Mohrenschildt and by association to Bush and Devine, some obvious questions come to mind. Given that Hal Feeney also used the Bishop handle adds color especially since he was possible Dallas participant Tony Izquierdo's case officer, and throw in Gordon Campbell as another using the name and one is left wondering what it all means. So, who was running who here? I fear there is too many preconceived notions regarding this while the subtleties of relevant information remain buried deep within skilfull trade craft. Onward! James _________________________ Thanks James, As you know, I value quite highly your observations and your theories. I understand the significance of the name "Bishop" in the context of the assassination, and the fact that it was apparently used by several different operatives.... Regardless, in comparing "The Sketch" to the photos of all the possible CIA dudes who might have been LHO's controller, I think that the definitive answer lies in the details. The details I'm referring to are the representations in the sketch of warts, wens, moles, splotches, freckles, and/or birthmarks which are clearly visible on the left side of the man's face in the sketch which are also clearly visible in the photo of one David Atlee Phillips. So far, no one on The Forum has addressed this minor observation on my part (regarding the warts, wens, moles, splotches, freckles, and/or birthmarks)... Of all the candidates I've seen so far (including Moore), the only one who has similar marks on the left side of his face is David Atlee Phillips.... Onward Ho! --Thomas __________________________ bump __________________________ ___________________ As threatened lol OK, what about those moles, wens, freckles, splotches and/or birth marks on (his) left side of his face in both the photo and the sketch? --Thanks ___________________ Edited May 2, 2007 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Forman Posted May 24, 2007 Share Posted May 24, 2007 P.S. I'm a-bumpin' it now and I'm a-gonna keep on a-bumpin' it 'till I get a rational. research-oriented response...James, Robin, Lee...? (Thomas Graves) Thomas, I'm not sure I can offer a rational, research-oriented response but I guess the thing here is that the whole Bishop scenario is likely more complicated than first thought. Even if Phillips was the Bishop that Veciana saw and I think this is highly likely, Moore is one individual who has escaped major scrutiny and given his connections to de Mohrenschildt and by association to Bush and Devine, some obvious questions come to mind. Given that Hal Feeney also used the Bishop handle adds color especially since he was possible Dallas participant Tony Izquierdo's case officer, and throw in Gordon Campbell as another using the name and one is left wondering what it all means. So, who was running who here? I fear there is too many preconceived notions regarding this while the subtleties of relevant information remain buried deep within skilfull trade craft. Onward! James _________________________ Thanks James, As you know, I value quite highly your observations and your theories. I understand the significance of the name "Bishop" in the context of the assassination, and the fact that it was apparently used by several different operatives.... Regardless, in comparing "The Sketch" to the photos of all the possible CIA dudes who might have been LHO's controller, I think that the definitive answer lies in the details. The details I'm referring to are the representations in the sketch of warts, wens, moles, splotches, freckles, and/or birthmarks which are clearly visible on the left side of the man's face in the sketch which are also clearly visible in the photo of one David Atlee Phillips. So far, no one on The Forum has addressed this minor observation on my part (regarding the warts, wens, moles, splotches, freckles, and/or birthmarks)... Of all the candidates I've seen so far (including Moore), the only one who has similar marks on the left side of his face is David Atlee Phillips.... Onward Ho! --Thomas __________________________ bump __________________________ ___________________ As threatened lol OK, what about those moles, wens, freckles, splotches and/or birth marks on (his) left side of his face in both the photo and the sketch? --Thanks ___________________ Here ya go Thomas. From Dick Russell's The Man who knew too much, page 334, 1992 - I'd say that James has something of great interest here. - lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Kelly Posted May 24, 2007 Share Posted May 24, 2007 (edited) OKAY, I FOUND AN OLD FILE I HAD THAT I WILL SHARE. ANYONE WHO WANTS TO SAY THAT "MAURICE BISHOP" IS ANYONE OTHER THAN DAVID ATLEE PHILLIPS MUST SHOW THAT THIER CANDIATE MATCHES THE OVERALL TWO DECADES LONG CAREER OF THE "MAURICE BISHOP" AS DESCRIBED BY VECIANA. UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTED, MY SOURCES ARE THE HSCA VOL.X AND DAP'S AUTOBIO NIGHTWATCH. 1. DAVID ATLEE PHILLIPS - In 1960 "I visted Bissel to outline my plans for the propaganda operation. I intended to organize exile groups of women, workers, professionals and students to act as propaganda fronts." "MAURICE BISHOP" - To the best of Veciana's recollection Maurice Bishop first approached him in Havana in the middle of 1960. "...most of the lessons consisted of programs in propaganda and psychological warfare, 'the main purpose was to train me to be the organizer...to initiate a type of action and other people would be the ones to carry it out.'" 2. DAP: Howard Hunt (KNIGHT) returned from his excursion to Havana...bringing news from a number of people he talked to on my recomendation. Hunt also brought back the recomendation...that Fidel Castro should be assasinated. MP : A few months after the Bay of Pigs invastion...."Bishop decided that the only thing left to be done was to have an attempt on Castro's life." Veciana escaped from Cuba on the day before the attempt, but on Oct. 26, 1961, Amador and Sarah Odio were arrested for harboring Reynald Gonzales, who was wanted in connection with the plot organized by Veciana." (HSCA Vol. X, p. 24) 3. DAP - In 1961 arrived in Mexico City to direct the Covert Action Desk. "The CIA station in Mexico City is important...to conduct third country operations, that is using Mexico for access to the nationals of other countries." The Mexico City chief-of-station Winston Scott said, "...Your in the business of management as well as operations. You'll spend less time in the street and more time at your desk, sniffing out the winds of political change and the smell of smoke from hidden operational fires." Maurice Bishop : Bishop contacted Veciana in Miami and initiated the founding of Alpha 66, one of the most active groups, buying guns and boats, recruiting and training commandos, and conducting numerous raids on Cuba. 4. DAP - After the Oct. 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis, Desmond Fitzgerald became the CIA Chief of Cuban Operations and Phillips was given the task of monitoring the Cuban embassy in Mexico City, and "any nexus it might have with pro-Castro groups in the hemisphere." [Which presumably would include the New Orleans FPCC). On Nov. 22, 1963 Phillips was the duty officer at the CIA HQ at the US embassy in Mexico City. "For the next several weeks the station was occupied with reviewing all available intelligence concerning Oswald and his visit to MC." MP: Veciana said....he saw Bishop with Lee Harvey Oswald in Dallas a few months before the assassination of JFK...in late August/early September 1963. When he arrived at the lobby of a large office building in downtown Dallas to meet Bishop, Bishop was there talking with Oswald. Oswald remained only for a brief time as they walked toward a nearyby coffee shop. Oswald then departed and Bishop and Veciana continued there meeting alone. [Note, Jack Ruby and Larry Crafard went to this same Southland building coffee shop after midnight on the night of the assassination.] 5. DAP : Phillips interrogated Gilberto Alvarado Ugarto (aka "D") who was a Nicaraguan intelligence agent assigned to penetrate Cuba who claimed to have seen Oswald take money from a Cuban intelligence officer in Mexico City. His story was never confirmed, and after widespread dissemination, was discredited. MP: Veciana's next meeting with Bishop was in Miami, about two months after the assassination. Bishop told Veciana that if he could get in touch with (his relative) Ruiz, a known Cuban intelligence officer who worked at the Cuban embassy in Mexico City, he would pay Ruiz a large sum of money to say publicly that it was him who met with Oswald in Mexico. 6. DAP: In April 1964 DAP was transferred to the Dominican Republic where he served as CIA chief of station until 1967. MP: "The existence of Second Naval Guerrilla ....was disclosed by the Cuban government in 1966, after the designated gunman,...Rolando Cubella (AKA AMLASH) was arrested in Havana....Actually the whole plan had to be canceled when a rebellion unexpectedly errupted in the Domincan Republic..." (Where SNG commandos were trained). Tad Szulc, Esquire, Feb. 1974. 7. DAP: In August 1967 Phillips was promoted to Chief of Cuban Operatiosn of the Western Hemisphere Division. In December 1969 he was assigned to Rio de Janeiro, Brazil as COS. MP: From August 1968 until June 1972, Veciana worked in La Paz, Boliva, as a banking advisor to Bolivia's Central Bank...Veciana actually did very little such work, but instead was engaged mostly in anti-communist activity with Bishop. 8. DAP: On September 19, 1970 Phillips was appointed head of a special Chile Task Force aimed at preventing Salvadore Allende from assuming the presidencey of Chile. In Sept. 1971 he was appointed COS, Carcas, Venezuela. MP: Among the operations instiaged by Bishop at the time was an attempt to assassinte Castro in Chile in 1971. Castro claimed,..."in November 1971 the plotters....used Venezuelan documents...arrived throught the American embassy in Bolivia..." (Interview with Barbar Walters....complete text published in Cuba In Focus, Vol. IV., No 3, p. 21, 1977). 9. DAP: On a weekend in late July 1972, "...an unnerving cable arrived from Mexico City. A source had reported that a man presented himself to teh Chilian envoy and claimed that he had just defected from the CIA because the Agency had been persecuting his family. As bonifides he offered Allende's ambassador "PLAN CENTAUR," which he described as the CIA's program to overthrow the Chilian government...I was worried that a disaffected staff officer from my division was using his general knowledge of our overall operations to enhance a fabrication...But I had a feeling that I hadn't heard the last of Plan Centaur." On Monday morning Abe chastised me gently. Abe...told me I must learn that I was now a manager, not an operator. An officer from our Mexico section should have spent Sunday on duty in the office on the Plan Centaur case." MP: According to Veciana, that aborted assassintion attempt (against Castro) eventually led to the dissolution of his relationship with Bishop. Although Bishop directed the operation and provided Veciana with intelligence information, Vechian himself recruited anti-Castro Cubans associates in Caracas. The associates even produced phoney documents and photographs. When Bishop later found out about this unauthorized part of the scheme, he was extremely upset and accused Veciana of being part of it. Although Veciana told Bishop he had no knowledge of it, Bishop apparetnly did not believe him and eventually suggested their relationship be terminated. 10. DAP: In May, 1973, Phillps became the Chief of the Western Hemisphere Division, responsible for "managing the CIA's operations in some twenty countries in Latin America and the Caribbean. MP : On July 26, 1973, Bishop arranged for Veciana to meet him ....Bishop gave Veciana a suitcase with ....$253,000 in cash...for his services over the years." (HSCA Vol. X, p. 40) xxxxxxxxxx Edited May 24, 2007 by William Kelly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antti Hynonen Posted May 24, 2007 Share Posted May 24, 2007 For some reason Bill Kelly's post didn't register as the latest post on this thread. Just checking to see if this will help the thread along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Kelly Posted May 24, 2007 Share Posted May 24, 2007 For some reason Bill Kelly's post didn't register as the latest post on this thread. Just checking to see if this will help the thread along. Thanks, Antti, While I came up with these ten matches between the careers of David Atlee Phillips and "Maurice Bishop," as described by Antonio Veciana, there are probably more, and I just stopped when I convinced myself that they were one and the same man. This analysis of course, does not preclude the use of the "Maurice Bishop" alias by others, especially those at JM/WAVE, like Gordon Campbell, as suggested by BEA and James Richards. It just eleminates possible suspects like JWMoore, who may look like the sketch, but fail to have the career matches. BK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Raymond Carroll Posted May 24, 2007 Share Posted May 24, 2007 (edited) While I came up with these ten matches between the careers of David Atlee Phillips and "Maurice Bishop," as described by Antonio Veciana, there are probably more, and I just stopped when I convinced myself that they were one and the same man. BK Of course, if Veciana was a misinformation agent dispatched to mislead investigators, then his dispatchers would have supplied him with all this information. Edited May 24, 2007 by J. Raymond Carroll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Kelly Posted May 24, 2007 Share Posted May 24, 2007 (edited) While I came up with these ten matches between the careers of David Atlee Phillips and "Maurice Bishop," as described by Antonio Veciana, there are probably more, and I just stopped when I convinced myself that they were one and the same man. BK Of course, if Veciana was a misinformation agent dispatched to mislead investigators, then his dispatchers would have supplied him with all this information. But Veciana came up with his description of "Maurice Bishop" before anyone identified DAP. And in the end we all must decide who and what to believe and who and what not to believe. I believe Veciana's original description of "Maurice Bishop" up until the point he confronted him in person. And the correct term is disinformation if it originates from an intelligence agency source, while misinformation can be incorrect information supplied by anyone. Those who we have identified as supplying disinformation are well known - G. Robert Blakey, Gus Russo, Max Holland, Ultimate Sac Waldman, Gregory Douglas,....et al. Those who have worked personally with DAP who have supplied disinformation are Virginia Prewett (NANA), Edward J. Epstein, Joe Goulden, Veciana after meeting DAP, et al. At some point you have to believe somebody and something, and I believe the man who trained and operated Antonio Veciana is David Atlee Phillips. It probably took me a few weeks to read the HSCA Vol. X, Nightwatch, Barbara Walters, etc. and put that together and the retype it for this forum, so I hope somebody gets something out of it, other than simply disbelief of Veciana. If you or anybody wants to believe Maurice Bishop was J.W. Moore or Donald Duck, that's your perogative. I base my opinion on the survey I share with you. BK Edited May 24, 2007 by William Kelly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Raymond Carroll Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 I believe Veciana's original description of "Maurice Bishop" up until the point he confronted him in person. Those who have worked personally with DAP who have supplied disinformation are, Veciana after meeting DAP, et al. Let me get this straight BIll: You believe some of Veciana's words all of the time, and you believe all of his words some of the time, but you don't believe all of his words all of the time. At some point you have to believe somebody and something, BK Translation: You have to believe what Veciana said at SOME point, and the trick is to know when he's lying. Quizz Time: How do you know WHEN Veciana is lying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Richards Posted May 25, 2007 Author Share Posted May 25, 2007 Bill, I agree with you completely that the Bishop Veciana was talking about was in fact David Atlee Phillips. My point in the beginning was that others also used that name which of course is common practice in spook circles. The same way E. Howard Hunt and Chauncey Holt both used the name Edward J. Hamilton. BTW, in early 1964, Veciana was in Dallas doing a series of speeches aimed at the Cuban community focusing on the upcoming so-called 'Omega Plan'. Veciana spoke at the Blessed Sacrament Catholic Church, the same church that used to feature Father Walter Machann on many a blessed occasion. Some of the Dallas Alpha 66 members, the ones who didn't split immediately after the assassination, were in attendance and made the comment that a man was present who they all believed to be with the CIA. He was known to them as Mr. Bishop and the consensus after many years is that this man was indeed David Atlee Phillips. FWIW. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Kelly Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 I believe Veciana's original description of "Maurice Bishop" up until the point he confronted him in person. Those who have worked personally with DAP who have supplied disinformation are, Veciana after meeting DAP, et al. Let me get this straight BIll: You believe some of Veciana's words all of the time, and you believe all of his words some of the time, but you don't believe all of his words all of the time. At some point you have to believe somebody and something, BK Translation: You have to believe what Veciana said at SOME point, and the trick is to know when he's lying. Quizz Time: How do you know WHEN Veciana is lying? JRC, appologies for being so testy, but I get frustrated sometimes. Now some people call Jean Hill a xxxx, some say Mary Mooreman lied, and every witness at sometime or other is called a lier by someone who doesn't like what they have to say or has an agenda. I believe these witnesses deserve the greatest respect because they didn't intend to be a witnesses. On the same token, eyewitness testimony has been shown to be unreliable on many counts. Material witnesses like Veciana, BEA, are also capable of providing disinformation, given their background and associations, but we can also be aware of that and factor it in when it come time to decide if you believe them or not. Veciana, I believe, is still alive, as is the former Father MacCann JR brings into play(and God bless you James for that tidbit I didn't know about goings on at the church), but I think it best to leave all the witnesses alone until a proper venue can be established to take their testimony under oath. And then everybody will be able to have the opportunity to decide who is telling the truth and who is lying and if it can be demonstrated they lied, then they are subject to perjury. Of course you know all this, BK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Raymond Carroll Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 Bill,I agree with you completely that the Bishop Veciana was talking about was in fact David Atlee Phillips. James Now we are getting close to the point where we can tell when Veciana is lying. Veciana testified under the sacred oath and under penalty of perjury, that David Phillips was not Bishop. So now we know when Veciana is lying: When he is under Oath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Kelly Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 Bill,I agree with you completely that the Bishop Veciana was talking about was in fact David Atlee Phillips. James Now we are getting close to the point where we can tell when Veciana is lying. Veciana testified under the sacred oath and under penalty of perjury, that David Phillips was not Bishop. So now we know when Veciana is lying: When he is under Oath. JRC, The HSCA investigators wanted to have DAP indicted for perjury for lies that they caught him in. He's dead. I did talk with him on the phone and believe that Gaeton Fonzi did not take every effort to actually interview DAP. If LHO was set up by the DRE, being run by DAP, maybe DAP was set up as well? I don't think DAP is the real bad guy in this operation but he was a very important person in the network. As for Veciana, I don't think he has anymore to say worth listening to, and we got as much as we ever will out of him. Why did he lie about DAP being "Maurice Bishop"? Maybe he's just a stand up guy. As they say in that old Irish toast, "Here's to lieing, stealing, cheating and drinking - lie to save a friend, steal your lover's heart, cheat death and drink with friends." BK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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