Call to Waggoner Carr, Nov 22

[Steve Cearfoss]

I have been looking for any recent info regarding a call made from Washington DC to Texas Attorney General Waggoner Carr around 9 pm on November 22, 1963. The caller wanted assurance from Carr that no suggestion of an Oswald accomplice or accomplices was being considered in the indictment at that time. The caller was never identified; Carr said he couldn't remember the name of the caller even though he later called the person back! Is there any evidence that the caller was LBJ? Please give source citations. Thanks

[Greg Burnham]

That can't be your profile photo...can it? Or are these closer to the mark? I prefer to see who it is that is asking.

[William Kelly]

The answer to your question is one of the central elements of this article - The Tipping Point, in which I try to document at what point the Phase One - Castro Commie plot was officially discarded in favor of the equally implausible Phase Two - Deranged Lone Nut scenario - and my conclusion that it occurred between 7 and 9 pm on Nov. 21, while LBJ was in his office at the Executive Office Building next to the White House.

JFKcountercoup: The Tipping Point

While this little interlude is seldom discussed by conspiracy theorists, it is documented in part by Jack Valenti and Vincent Bugliosi, with Valenti confirming that LBJ was behind closed doors at the time, with Cliff Carter and maybe on other top aide.

From what I can gather so far, it was David Atlee Phillips' asset Joe Goulden, then working for a Philadelphia daily, who got assistant DA Alexander to say that he was going to indict Oswald as communist conspiracy, but when the news of this reached LBJ, probably via radio or TV, LBJ had Cliff Carter call Wagner Carr, and Carr called Alexander, who denied know anything about the leak to the press concerning the wording of the indictment, even though Bugliosi himself says he was the one who talked to Goulden.

The most interesting thing about this meeting is the time line - 6 pm arrival at White House lawn by helicopter from Andrews, three hours at VP office at EOB, leaving there at 9pm to go to LBJ residence - Elms at Spring Valley, five minutes drive, but according to Blaine and Bugliosi, LBJ and Valente don't arrive there until 10:30 - a one and a half hours difference. What did they do, ride around DC for an hour and a half.

Although I haven't read it yet, I understand Caro says they did indeed go for a ride, at LBJ's instructions, to pick up another close staff member.

In any case, it is a good question, and one that I think I have answered, but the answer of which only begs other questions that are harder to answer,

BK

JFKcountercoup

[Steve Cearfoss]

Greg: I've been found out. You are right, the earlier two are me.

[Steve Cearfoss]

Thanks for the info, William. I have heard that the call was perhaps made by McGeorge Bundy. Steve

[Guest Tom Scully]

Steve, did you see this, back in the month of May? Your current posts are visible because Greg posted the photo of

yourself you originally submitted. Considering your background, you are certainly an asset to this forum and its members.

(Excuse the following O.T. comments, please.)

I would enjoy reading your take on the Don Bolles murder investigation, the decision by the local newspaper not to publish

the I.R.E. investigation results, the Pulliam influence on the Quayle V.P. appointment by Bush; Kemper Marley and McCain's

father-in-law, the I.R.E. reporting on the Goldwater brothers, Del Webb, Henry Crown, etc.

I know quite a bit, first hand, about this "pilot" and his attorney, a lawyer who was also mentioned in the I.R.E. reporting. I hope we have an opportunity to discuss these subjects.

[Robert Howard]

A few years ago, I began collecting books by JFK Administration officials and other political and intelligence figures of the era... Waggoner Carr, has his Texas Politics In My Rear View Mirror. While the book, has a fairly detailed account of his interaction in the JFK Administration, it pretty much glosses over details, of which the phone call would be at the top of the list.....IMO, It is a fairly typical book by a Texas politician regarding the JFK assassination, at least the self-penned variety.

If you read the book, chances are good you would try to select the most important passage you could to display something unique regarding it that probably couldn't be found anywhere else......

On that note, there is this passage......

The next morning, we all attended a breakfast in the ballroom of the Texas Hotel in Ft. Worth. The President arrived on time, but the First Lady came in about thirty minutes later and charmed the whole crowd with her presence. President Kennedy passed along the head table acknowledging the participants. When he stopped by my chair, we shook hands and he told me how pleased he and Mrs. Kennedy were with the great reception they had received thus far, and that they certainly felt welcome. He said he had been advised that I was leaving the entourage to keep a speaking engagement, but would rejoin them that evening for the State

dinner. I thanked him for his concern and said I would look forward to seeing them in Austin.

The presidential party left the hotel and Ernestine and I headed in opposite directions. She returned to Austin to prepare for the final event that evening at Austin's Palmer Auditorium and I went to the airport to board a private plane to Dumas in the Northern panhandle, for my speaking engagement. About an hour later, a sniper killed President Kennedy in the Dallas parade. I was totally unaware of this awful turn of events until I arrived in Dumas. I couldn't believe it at first.

We cancelled the speech, of course, and watched the shocking news reports on television for a short time before my plane was refueled and I returned to Austin to be available for whatever duties might be necessary.

Texas Politics In My Rear View Mirror - Waggoner Carr, Byron Varner - Wordware Publishing 1993 pps. 85-86

Edited August 30, 2012 by Robert Howard

[Thomas Graves]

The answer to your question is one of the central elements of this article - The Tipping Point, in which I try to document at what point the Phase One - Castro Commie plot was officially discarded in favor of the equally implausible Phase Two - Deranged Lone Nut scenario - and my conclusion that it occurred between 7 and 9 pm on Nov. 21, while LBJ was in his office at the Executive Office Building next to the White House. [emphasis added by T. Graves]

JFKcountercoup: The Tipping Point

While this little interlude is seldom discussed by conspiracy theorists, it is documented in part by Jack Valenti and Vincent Bugliosi, with Valenti confirming that LBJ was behind closed doors at the time, with Cliff Carter and maybe on other top aide.

From what I can gather so far, it was David Atlee Phillips' asset Joe Goulden, then working for a Philadelphia daily, who got assistant DA Alexander to say that he was going to indict Oswald as communist conspiracy, but when the news of this reached LBJ, probably via radio or TV, LBJ had Cliff Carter call Wagner Carr, and Carr called Alexander, who denied know anything about the leak to the press concerning the wording of the indictment, even though Bugliosi himself says he was the one who talked to Goulden.

The most interesting thing about this meeting is the time line - 6 pm arrival at White House lawn by helicopter from Andrews, three hours at VP office at EOB, leaving there at 9pm to go to LBJ residence - Elms at Spring Valley, five minutes drive, but according to Blaine and Bugliosi, LBJ and Valente don't arrive there until 10:30 - a one and a half hours difference. What did they do, ride around DC for an hour and a half.

Although I haven't read it yet, I understand Caro says they did indeed go for a ride, at LBJ's instructions, to pick up another close staff member.

In any case, it is a good question, and one that I think I have answered, but the answer of which only begs other questions that are harder to answer,

BK

JFKcountercoup

Bill,

Between 7 and 9 pm on November 21 ???

--Tommy

Edited August 30, 2012 by Thomas Graves

[David Josephs]

The answer to your question is one of the central elements of this article - The Tipping Point, in which I try to document at what point the Phase One - Castro Commie plot was officially discarded in favor of the equally implausible Phase Two - Deranged Lone Nut scenario - and my conclusion that it occurred between 7 and 9 pm on Nov. 21, while LBJ was in his office at the Executive Office Building next to the White House.

JFKcountercoup: The Tipping Point

While this little interlude is seldom discussed by conspiracy theorists, it is documented in part by Jack Valenti and Vincent Bugliosi, with Valenti confirming that LBJ was behind closed doors at the time, with Cliff Carter and maybe on other top aide.

From what I can gather so far, it was David Atlee Phillips' asset Joe Goulden, then working for a Philadelphia daily, who got assistant DA Alexander to say that he was going to indict Oswald as communist conspiracy, but when the news of this reached LBJ, probably via radio or TV, LBJ had Cliff Carter call Wagner Carr, and Carr called Alexander, who denied know anything about the leak to the press concerning the wording of the indictment, even though Bugliosi himself says he was the one who talked to Goulden.

The most interesting thing about this meeting is the time line - 6 pm arrival at White House lawn by helicopter from Andrews, three hours at VP office at EOB, leaving there at 9pm to go to LBJ residence - Elms at Spring Valley, five minutes drive, but according to Blaine and Bugliosi, LBJ and Valente don't arrive there until 10:30 - a one and a half hours difference. What did they do, ride around DC for an hour and a half.

Although I haven't read it yet, I understand Caro says they did indeed go for a ride, at LBJ's instructions, to pick up another close staff member.

In any case, it is a good question, and one that I think I have answered, but the answer of which only begs other questions that are harder to answer,

BK

JFKcountercoup

Bill - I'd like to better understand this conclusion from your blog post....

2) Meanwhile, on the ground in Dallas, members of the Dallas Police Special Services Unit (SSU), specifically, Chief Lumpkin, Deputy Chief Stringfellow, Capt. Gannaway, all members of Jack Crichton’s 488^th US Army Reserve Intelligence Unit, along with Asst. DA Alexander, actively promoted the Phase-One Cover Story that the assassination was the result of a Cuban Communist conspiracy

would you give us example of "actively promoting" as Stringfellow was one of many who placed Oswald in the balcony... and could have known about the day's events ahead of time... I see a couple of references to FPCC and the cable to the base... were they doing more overtly to assign commie blame on Oswald?

What did these men do to help the Phase 1 story along?

I was always under the impression that the "commie" angle was invented by the CIA to specifically keep "them" away from investigating too closely - if it couldn't be any of the people/acronyms involved in the conspiracy, the conclusion HAD to be that he was alone - regardless of Hoover's lack of faith in this conclusion - which comes from the Mexico City Commie angle created by the CIA... As I see it, the only people pushing Commie conspiracy was the CIA (possibly knowing that Hoover might not be able to keep his hands off a "commie") ... and more publically, Carr...

The othing thing that stood out for me was my remembering that LBJ insited on moving into the Oval Office and White House immediately - didn't Lincoln criticize him for being so unfeeling about kicking their furniture out asap?

Thanks for the great read Bill

DJ

[William Kelly]

The answer to your question is one of the central elements of this article - The Tipping Point, in which I try to document at what point the Phase One - Castro Commie plot was officially discarded in favor of the equally implausible Phase Two - Deranged Lone Nut scenario - and my conclusion that it occurred between 7 and 9 pm on Nov. 22 {Thanks Tommy - that's 22, I stand corrected] , while LBJ was in his office at the Executive Office Building next to the White House.

JFKcountercoup: The Tipping Point

While this little interlude is seldom discussed by conspiracy theorists, it is documented in part by Jack Valenti and Vincent Bugliosi, with Valenti confirming that LBJ was behind closed doors at the time, with Cliff Carter and maybe on other top aide.

From what I can gather so far, it was David Atlee Phillips' asset Joe Goulden, then working for a Philadelphia daily, who got assistant DA Alexander to say that he was going to indict Oswald as communist conspiracy, but when the news of this reached LBJ, probably via radio or TV, LBJ had Cliff Carter call Wagner Carr, and Carr called Alexander, who denied know anything about the leak to the press concerning the wording of the indictment, even though Bugliosi himself says he was the one who talked to Goulden.

The most interesting thing about this meeting is the time line - 6 pm arrival at White House lawn by helicopter from Andrews, three hours at VP office at EOB, leaving there at 9pm to go to LBJ residence - Elms at Spring Valley, five minutes drive, but according to Blaine and Bugliosi, LBJ and Valente don't arrive there until 10:30 - a one and a half hours difference. What did they do, ride around DC for an hour and a half.

Although I haven't read it yet, I understand Caro says they did indeed go for a ride, at LBJ's instructions, to pick up another close staff member.

In any case, it is a good question, and one that I think I have answered, but the answer of which only begs other questions that are harder to answer,

BK

JFKcountercoup

Bill - I'd like to better understand this conclusion from your blog post....

2) Meanwhile, on the ground in Dallas, members of the Dallas Police Special Services Unit (SSU), specifically, Chief Lumpkin, Deputy Chief Stringfellow, Capt. Gannaway, all members of Jack Crichton’s 488^th US Army Reserve Intelligence Unit, along with Asst. DA Alexander, actively promoted the Phase-One Cover Story that the assassination was the result of a Cuban Communist conspiracy

would you give us example of "actively promoting" as Stringfellow was one of many who placed Oswald in the balcony... and could have known about the day's events ahead of time... I see a couple of references to FPCC and the cable to the base... were they doing more overtly to assign commie blame on Oswald?

What did these men do to help the Phase 1 story along?

I was always under the impression that the "commie" angle was invented by the CIA to specifically keep "them" away from investigating too closely - if it couldn't be any of the people/acronyms involved in the conspiracy, the conclusion HAD to be that he was alone - regardless of Hoover's lack of faith in this conclusion - which comes from the Mexico City Commie angle created by the CIA... As I see it, the only people pushing Commie conspiracy was the CIA (possibly knowing that Hoover might not be able to keep his hands off a "commie") ... and more publically, Carr...

The othing thing that stood out for me was my remembering that LBJ insited on moving into the Oval Office and White House immediately - didn't Lincoln criticize him for being so unfeeling about kicking their furniture out asap?

Thanks for the great read Bill

DJ

Okay, first off it is Friday Nov. 22nd we are talking about, as Tommy has pointed out - that's my typo corrected.

Second as for Stringfellow - a memo he wrote that became a cable to the McDill Air Force base in Florida clearly state that Oswald was a Castro Communist who had been to Cuba - so Stringfellow was not only wrong about the balcony he was wrong about Oswald being in Cuba, but in any case, he was cabeling this info to the Air Force Base in Florida that had the quick strike capability that would retaliate, except Stringfellow did not have the rank to order such an attack - that would have had to come from the President - or Sec. of Defense in the President's death. Once LBJ was sworn in and clearly president, he was the one who could order such an attack and didn't.

As for Alexander saying that he was going to charge Oswald with "furthering a communist conspiracy" in the indictment, he told that to Joe Goulden, David Atlee Phillips' asset and executor of his estate, but when that got back to LBJ - when he got to the Vice President's office at the Ex Office Building, he had Cliff Carter call the Attorney Gen. of Texas and other top state law officials and ordered them NOT to charge Oswald with being part of a conspiracy.

While some reports say that LBJ went to the White House, he actually, as detailed by Valente, who followed him, and Bugliosi, who tells us about the role of Goulden, they went by helicopter from Andrews to the White House but didn't enter and walked across the White House lawn, crossed the street and went to LBJ's office at the EOB. The incident with Mrs. Lincoln at the Oval Office occurred the following morning.

It was from there that LBJ and Cliff Carter and one other person I have yet to ID, not Valente, went into his private office, closed the door and were in there until 9 pm when they exited and drove to the Elms, where they arrived at 10:30 pm - an hour and a half time lapse in the official story that I find significant.

More to come on this,

BK

Edited August 30, 2012 by William Kelly

[David Josephs]

Thanks Bill.... great info.

that missing time is indeed significant... but I was sure

Knowing what I know of LBJ... a quickie with the Mistress to celebrate becoming POTUS, and a cocktail with Hoover over the success of the plan... would be my guess.

What else was more important ?

Cheers

DJ