Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Clive Largey]

You're quite right, Pat, good catch.

What was Pat Speer referring to exactly B.A.?

I noticed if we quote someone and leave just the name date and time in at the top here there is a jump back feature so anyone can check what was said in full and in what context. Just an example above.

I have to say too that the example video you chose on extraordinary evidence doesn't sit well with me.

If I believe in the possibility that PM could be Oswald I should have no trouble with the resurrection?

That could be just me but anyway I get your point B.A.

Keep the faith.

[Vanessa Loney]

Personally I think just the normal sort of evidence is required on PM.

As in, evidence is "the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid".

No need for the 'extraordinary' at all.

[Vanessa Loney]

You're quite right, Pat, good catch.

What was Pat Speer referring to exactly B.A.?

I noticed if we quote someone and leave just the name date and time in at the top here there is a jump back feature so anyone can check what was said in full and in what context. Just an example above.

I have to say too that the example video you chose on extraordinary evidence doesn't sit well with me.

If I believe in the possibility that PM could be Oswald I should have no trouble with the resurrection?

That could be just me but anyway I get your point B.A.

Keep the faith.

post #571

Bump

[Clive Largey]

It will be pretty extraordinary if a sharper Darnell makes the boy look even more like Oswald.

Anyway, what's the significance of post #571? It's not what B.A was referring to...

Also, wouldn't it by funny if this was Roy Truly?

I guess everyone just thought it was a black man but that hat...

any chance it's him?

Also the above moving footage was queried here as to it's source and date, was that answered? Can't see that it was.

Is it from the reconstruction or not?

[Vitali Zhuk]

Thought provoking stuff courtesy of ROKC. If this doesn't arouse curiosity, I don't know what would. We can only hope we'll have better scans of the Darnell and Wiegman films someday soon.

LHO was wearing a dark shirt with short arms or white T-shirt.

[Vitali Zhuk]

Short arms you mean, short sleeves?

Wrong:

Hi, Bart!

You are correct.

May be LHO undressed dark shirt on six floor and made his shots in white. The shooter was seen at window in white clothing. On the way to the stairs at six floor LHO erased by shirt his fingerprints on the rifle. Then he hidden away the rifle before the stairs and dressed the shirt. Later there were found a lot of shirt fiber on the rifle and a lack of fingerprints. After 40 minutes LHO shot Tippit and repeated his dressing trick with jacket. May be.

Edited June 13, 2015 by Vitali Zhuk

[Greg Parker]

Personally I think just the normal sort of evidence is required on PM.

As in, evidence is "the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid".

No need for the 'extraordinary' at all.

None whatsoever. There is nothing extraordinary about evidence supporting that someone is in the general area of where they said they were. There is nothing extraordinary in verifying or refuting via evidence, a suspect's alibi. The only extraordinary claim is that this should be considered extraordinary solely because it has taken 50 years to do what should have been at the time.

Seems to me, someone is putting that suggestion forward in an attempt to shift the goalposts. Who would do such a reprehensible thing?

[Vitali Zhuk]

To me it is just common sense he would travel downwards from the 6th floor to the 2nd to get the coke and then to the 1st and then the steps outside. Instead of going back inside and upstairs after he'd eaten, to get his drink.

Hi, Vanessa!

I have one more version. LHO would travel downwards from the 6th floor to the 1st to take his jacket in domino room. But policeman Baker interrupted this plan. Hide and seek in the lunch room was forced improvisation. LHO decided to leave the jacket and went out.

[Karl Kinaski]

IMO Oswald was at the 2nd floor during the shooting. Geneva Hine told Robert Groden:

quote: http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=1423.15%3Bwap2

(On September 17th Robert Groden made the following remarks in the course of a radio interview with Len Osanic:

I actually found a woman some years ago. She was terrified. She did not want to come forward. And she finally agreed to give an interview, and I did interview her. When the shots actually went off, she was talking to Lee Oswald on the second floor. […] We always assumed that Lee had the change, that he had had the change for the machine. He didn’t. He went into the office across from the snack room with a dollar bill and asked for change. He said, “No pennies, please.” And, as the change was being counted out into his hand, the shots went off. And they looked at each other, this woman and Lee, and [asked], “What was that?” Backfires, firecrack[ers], who knew? He got the rest of the change, walked back across the hall, bought the Coke and then just a little over a minute later there was a gun in his ribs held by Officer Baker. Lee had an airtight alibi. He could not possibly have done this. She told this story to the Warren Commission. They told her to keep her mouth shut. And she did. She told very few people. Very few people. I was one of the few that she did. So I got to speak to her because I had a friend who knew a friend of hers. I had to promise her I would never reveal any of this until after she was gone. And now she is. The whole story, including her name, will be in the next book.

He must surely be talking about Geneva Hine.

close quote

Maybe after that, or shortly before, Oswald was watching out of one of the three westwindows oft that floor. )

You can exclude the first window, because it was the ladies toilet. The middle window was the mens toilet. The last westside-2nd window is a window, near the stairways.

In the animation below (credit Martin Hinrichs) you can see that window which goes to the parking lot behind the picket fence...

He then heart Truly/Baker hollering: Where is the elevetor and got back into the snack-room. Doing that Baker, the figure in Hinrichs animation, came to the 2nd floor and saw him, the way pointed out in that animation...

Oswald wasn't out of breath, he was calm, he had a coke in his hand, when Baker confronted him. After Baker went upstairs, Oswald crossed the office section, passed Reid, and went out to the front door, where he was standing together with Bill Shelley (Oswalds own words, fritz notes)several minutes, and he then entered a Nash Rambler. (Witness Roger Craig.), which Oswald believed belonged to the Paines.

KK

Edited June 15, 2015 by Karl Kinaski

[Greg Parker]

Karl,

groden was hoaxed with that. http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t559-geraldean-reid

[David Josephs]

To me it is just common sense he would travel downwards from the 6th floor to the 2nd to get the coke and then to the 1st and then the steps outside. Instead of going back inside and upstairs after he'd eaten, to get his drink.

Hi, Vanessa!

I have one more version. LHO would travel downwards from the 6th floor to the 1st to take his jacket in domino room. But policeman Baker interrupted this plan. Hide and seek in the lunch room was forced improvisation. LHO decided to leave the jacket and went out.

I think you'd be hard pressed to prove Oswald was on the 6th floor after 12pm that day... but it would be good to see what you have.

PM being Oswald

Mr. BALL - Who was with you?

Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me (Ball cuts Lovelady off right here - PM is right behind Lovelady at this point, he moves to his left later)

Mr. BALL - What was that last name?

Mr. LOVELADY - Stanton.

Mr. BALL - What is the first name?

Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley.

Mr. BALL - And Stanton's first name?

Mr. LOVELADY - Miss Sarah Stanton.

Mr. BALL - Did you stay on the steps

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Were you there when the President's motorcade went by

Mr. LOVELADY - Right.

In the Hughes film, as the limo turns the corner we see a blurry version of the overshirt and Tshirt in front of the black man in blue in the west corner of the opening.

At the bottom right we have Lovelady and PM in the same shot VERY soon after Hughes... so we know PM is there during the shooting.

Either this is Lovelady, who moves to the east or Hughes captured PM since we know that Lovelady was farther EAST than the person in Hughes' frame.

Vitali - maybe help us understand then, from your conclusion, if Baker were to write an account of what happened that very day instead of months later in testimony, I wonder what he would have written and signed hi name to within let's say, an affidavit... why no door, no window in the door, no coke, no lunchroom... nothing.

As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.

s/ M. L. Baker

SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN BEFORE ME THIS 22 DAY OF November A.D. 1963

Since Fritz arrives at the TSBD around 1pm, proceeds in and within 20 minutes the rifle is found... Mooney ascending the stairs is taking place between 12:35 and 12:50pm. Sawyer and gang takes the elevator up to the 4th and back down...

There are no records of who the men Mooney bumps into might have been, coming down from above at this point in the game...

Any thoughts on why the lunchroom story is not relayed in Baker's affidavit or who these men may be?

Mr. MOONEY -

It was a push button affair the best I can remember. got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator. So I looked around their office there, just a short second or two, and then I went up the staircase myself. And I met some other officers coming down, plainclothes, and I believe they were deputy sheriffs. They were coming down the staircase. But I kept going up. And how come I get off the sixth floor, I don't know yet. But, anyway, I stopped on six, and didn't even know what floor I was on.

Mr. BALL - You were alone?

Mr. MOONEY - I was alone at that time.

Mr. BALL - Was there any reason for you to go to the sixth floor?

Mr. MOONEY - No, sir. That is what I say. I don't know why. I just stopped on that particular floor. I thought I was pretty close to the top.

Mr. BALL - Were there any other officers on the floor?

Mr. MOONEY - I didn't see any at that time. I assume there had been other officers up there. But I didn't see them. And I begin criss-crossing it, round and round, through boxes, looking at open windows---some of them were open over on the south side.

And I believe they had started laying some flooring up there.

I was checking the fire escapes. And criss-crossing back and forth. And then I decided--I saw there was another floor. And I said I would go up. So I went on up to the seventh floor. I approached Officers Webster and Vickery. They were up there in this little old stairway there that leads up into the attic. So we climbed up in there and looked around right quick. We didn't climb all the way into the attic, almost into it. We said this is too dark, we have got to have floodlights, because we can't see. And so somebody made a statement that they believed floodlights was on the way. And I later found out that probably Officers Boone and Walters had gone after lights. I heard that.

And so we looked around up there for a short time. And then I says I am going back down on six.

At that time, some news reporter, or press, I don't know who he was--he was calming up with a camera. Of course he wasn't taking any pictures. He was just looking, too, I assume. So I went back down ahead of Officers Vickery and Webster. They come in behind me down to the sixth floor.

I went straight across to the southeast corner of the building, and I saw all these high boxes. Of course they were stacked all the way around over there. And I squeezed between two. And the minute I squeezed between these two stacks of boxes, I had to turn myself sideways to get in there that is when I saw the expended shells and the boxes that were stacked up looked to be a rest for the weapon

[Vitali Zhuk]

David, thank you for detail explanation.

I have two controversial versions. One version is in accordance with report. And another is not.

I have not yet decided how much truth in the report of WC. Now I become more and more confident that not a lot.

What is your opinion on PM shirt: long or short arms?

Edited June 15, 2015 by Vitali Zhuk

[David Josephs]

David, thank you for detail explanation.

I have two controversial versions. One version is in accordance with report. And another is not.

I have not yet decided how much truth in the report of WC. Now I become more and more confident that not a lot.

What is your opinion on PM shirt: long or short arms?

Always a pleasure Vitali

btw - nothing in the WC report can be used to illustrate anything related to the crimes committed... the Evidence IS the Conspiracy as you will continue to find out. All we can do with it is to show how the conspiracy worked, not the killings and resulting investigation... when we stop trying to connect the evidence to the crime and rather to the ensuing cover-up, it begins to make sense very quickly.

From all the images I've looked at it appears to me that the sleeve is rolled up, that there is a watch on his right hand (which usually means this person was left handed, but not necessarily)

Let's PLEASE remember that everyone who wrote notes from the interrogatiopn states that he said he went home, changed his shirt and britches, put them in his drawers as laundry and left.

The Button-down Briarloom shirt and the slacks were found in the dresser and were inventoried by the DPD...

(whether the button-down could have easily been folded up at the sleeves is unknown... but it seems possible.

The shirt in this image, if Oswald, does not need to match the arrest shirt for good reason... it's not the same. (Case in point - Bledsoe describes the torn buttons and elbow of the arrest shirt on a bus he supposedly took before he went home... not possible. Either he was never on the bus and Bledsoe was told what to say, or he was and she was also told what to say about that shirt....

As you can see, the arrest shirt is not button down

And here is the shirt and pants in the inventory... yet after the numbered 455 items....

[Vitali Zhuk]

David, thank you for detail explanation.

I have two controversial versions. One version is in accordance with report. And another is not.

I have not yet decided how much truth in the report of WC. Now I become more and more confident that not a lot.

What is your opinion on PM shirt: long or short arms?

Always a pleasure Vitali

btw - nothing in the WC report can be used to illustrate anything related to the crimes committed... the Evidence IS the Conspiracy as you will continue to find out. All we can do with it is to show how the conspiracy worked, not the killings and resulting investigation... when we stop trying to connect the evidence to the crime and rather to the ensuing cover-up, it begins to make sense very quickly.

From all the images I've looked at it appears to me that the sleeve is rolled up, that there is a watch on his right hand (which usually means this person was left handed, but not necessarily)

Let's PLEASE remember that everyone who wrote notes from the interrogatiopn states that he said he went home, changed his shirt and britches, put them in his drawers as laundry and left.

The Button-down Briarloom shirt and the slacks were found in the dresser and were inventoried by the DPD...

(whether the button-down could have easily been folded up at the sleeves is unknown... but it seems possible.

The shirt in this image, if Oswald, does not need to match the arrest shirt for good reason... it's not the same. (Case in point - Bledsoe describes the torn buttons and elbow of the arrest shirt on a bus he supposedly took before he went home... not possible. Either he was never on the bus and Bledsoe was told what to say, or he was and she was also told what to say about that shirt....

As you can see, the arrest shirt is not button down

And here is the shirt and pants in the inventory... yet after the numbered 455 items....

If the WC report is falsification why is there problem with nitrates on LHO hands and not on his face and why is there problem with Tippit bullets?

Also there is a problem with the bullets holder out of the rifle. There are many questions need to be answered.

May be a lot of people was involved in WC falsification and only some of them did their job truthfully.

[David Josephs]

If the WC report is falsification why is there problem with nitrates on LHO hands and not on his face and why is there problem with Tippit bullets?

Also there is a problem with the bullets holder out of the rifle. There are many questions need to be answered.

May be a lot of people was involved in WC falsification and only some of them did their job truthfully.

Nitrates on the hands can be accumulated in many ways... especially with all the ink and boxes that Oswald handled... there were none on his face as he did not fire a rifle.

The problem with the Tippit bullets are manyfold... but lead back to the delay in acquiring them from Oswald in the first place, that the different shell manufacturers don't match the # of bullets attributed to each..

That and these bullets all appear as if they've spent time in a leather ammo holster... the .38 he is accused of using is standard issue for the Dallas Police Department as well as most of ther PD's around the country.

The clip is definitely a problem in a number of ways. It was never seen or photographed in the TSBD - like the paper bag.

It would have to be loaded with only 4 instead of 6 bullets and for the story to be true it was either in the rifle as it was transported that way or loose in the bag...

Day wrote a note about what was found and added the clip as an after thought.. Every item of evidence was taken by the FBI Friday night - ALL of it... what was there before and after they took evidnece does not match...

As for many people being in on it... that really needn't be the case for the evidence to have been fashioned in such a way as to lead others down the wrong paths...

---------------

Think of it this way... The WCR defenders tell us to have faith in the commissioners, that you needn't read millions of pages of evidence to know Oswald did it.

Those who do not defend the WCR have to say that we MUST read thru millions of pages and STILL not know exactly what happened because the evidence does not support any of the conclusions and does not represent the actual conclusions of the investigation.

Not sure if you've seen this but it gives you some idea of what was possible... This testimony was simply crossed out and his answer provided for him. If you go read his testimony, the provided text is how the final printing looks...

This is but one page found... can you imagine how many changes could have made it into that Report and Evidence to materially change what we understand of the event?

Dulles here did not want the report to show that the FBI took everything on the 22nd and returned it the next week only to take it back again, and lose the photos that were taken in Dallas of all the evidence...

Amazing.. right?

Mr. CADIGAN. That is true.

Mr. EISENBERG. Do you know why Exhibit No. 820 was not reprocessed or desilvered?

Mr. CADIGAN. No, this is a latent fingerprint matter.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain why the signature, "Lee Oswald" or rather "L. H. Oswald" is apparent, while the signature "A. J. Hidell" is not?