Jump to content


Spartacus

Eyewitness Malcolm Summers


  • Please log in to reply
14 replies to this topic

#1 Chris Scally

Chris Scally

    Experienced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 75 posts

Posted 31 July 2011 - 11:34 AM

Can anyone help me, please, with a query regarding assassination witness Malcolm Summers (seen falling to the ground in the background of Zapruder frames 353-356)?

About a month ago, David Lifton wrote (in the Moorman thread, IIRC):"Interviews conducted by one researcher, years ago, with Malcolm Summers (who is shown falling in the Z film) indicate that [DPD motorcycle officer B.W.] Hargis cycle actually tipped over, and that he had to then place it rightside up, before leaving it, in the street, and running over to the light pole. Other films show Hargis' cycle upright, and simply standing there (upright) with the kickstand down, as Hargis is about to leave it (and/or has already left it) and run towards the light pole (see Darnell's film)."

A private e-mail, and one sent via the Forum to David have not been answered - so if you are lurking, David, have you changed your e-mail address recently?

Does anyone have any more information about the researcher, and if he/she wrote anything further about Summers' story anywhere, please? I've looked everywhere, but cannot find any other reference to this story about Hargis' bike falling over. Did any other eyewitnesses mention it? Again, I cannot find anything on this. Interestingly, however, two of the other motorcycle cops in the motorcade mentioned this incident, but I always assumed they were mistaken, and were confusing Hargis with Officer Haygood, who parked his motorcycle on the north side of Elm (see Couch film).

Any information will be very much appreciated.

Chris

#2 Hugo Langendoen

Hugo Langendoen

    Experienced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 61 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Zwijndrecht, The Netherlands

Posted 31 July 2011 - 12:25 PM

I just looked in the Master List of Witnesses written by Craig Ciccone.

In there, there is just a little bit of information about this witness:
--
Malcolm Summers, owner Summers Mailing Co, was at North Lawn - South of Elm - West of Altgens, heard two shots - did not say where they came from.
Sources: Warren Hearings, vol.19, 500.
Accounts: Summers 11/23/63 Dallas County Sheriff's Office statement, in Decker Ex. 5323.
--

Hopefully this is of any assistance.

#3 Michael Hogan

Michael Hogan

    Super Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3,468 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 31 July 2011 - 01:19 PM

Malcolm Summers gave an interview to The Sixth Floor Museum Oral History Project

http://www.c-spanvid...rogram/288318-1

He also gave an interview to Larry Sneed, published in No More Silence:

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

Summers mentions the motorcycle in the Sneed interview.

#4 Chris Scally

Chris Scally

    Experienced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 75 posts

Posted 31 July 2011 - 03:08 PM

Michael & Hugo:

Many thanks indeed for your help. I don't know how I missed the reference in Larry Sneed's book.....

Chris

#5 Thomas H. Purvis

Thomas H. Purvis

    Super Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5,055 posts

Posted 02 August 2011 - 07:29 PM

Most Fortunately!

For those who are unaware, the Sixth Floor Museum at one time posted the "oral" interview with Mr. Summers.
Who also stated the approximate proximity of were the Presidential Limo was located at the time that he heard the last shot fired.

#6 Michael Hogan

Michael Hogan

    Super Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3,468 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 03 August 2011 - 12:09 AM

Most Fortunately!

For those who are unaware, the Sixth Floor Museum at one time posted the "oral" interview with Mr. Summers.
Who also stated the approximate proximity of were the Presidential Limo was located at the time that he heard the last shot fired.


For those who are unaware, that interview is still available at the C-Span website, linked above. Four decades after, Mr. Summers' recollections about the source and timing of the shots
have little or no evidentiary value. For example, at about the 18:40 mark Gary Mack asks Summers to tap his knuckles on the table to indicate the timing of the shots. Summers does so
and indicates that there was no more than one second elapsed between the second and third shot.

Or as he told Larry Sneed, "As to the spacing of the shots, there was much more time between the first one and the second two, the second and the third. They were real close."

Now!

For those that are unaware, don't let anyone fool you into thinking Summers was a keen observer of the actual murder. He wasn't.

If you actually have any interest, don't take my word for it. Listen to his interview and see for yourself.

Or as Mr. Summers told Larry Sneed about the shots, "I'm not sure which one hit him where."

By the way, in that interview Gary Mack asks the most neutral and insipid questions imaginable.

#7 Daniel Gallup

Daniel Gallup

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 388 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pasadena, California
  • Interests:viola, violin, golf, mathematics, and of course the Kennedy assassination

Posted 03 August 2011 - 12:29 PM


Most Fortunately!

For those who are unaware, the Sixth Floor Museum at one time posted the "oral" interview with Mr. Summers.
Who also stated the approximate proximity of were the Presidential Limo was located at the time that he heard the last shot fired.


For those who are unaware, that interview is still available at the C-Span website, linked above. Four decades after, Mr. Summers' recollections about the source and timing of the shots
have little or no evidentiary value. For example, at about the 18:40 mark Gary Mack asks Summers to tap his knuckles on the table to indicate the timing of the shots. Summers does so
and indicates that there was no more than one second elapsed between the second and third shot.

Or as he told Larry Sneed, "As to the spacing of the shots, there was much more time between the first one and the second two, the second and the third. They were real close."

Now!

For those that are unaware, don't let anyone fool you into thinking Summers was a keen observer of the actual murder. He wasn't.

If you actually have any interest, don't take my word for it. Listen to his interview and see for yourself.

Or as Mr. Summers told Larry Sneed about the shots, "I'm not sure which one hit him where."

By the way, in that interview Gary Mack asks the most neutral and insipid questions imaginable.

Michael, thank you for the link to the Sneed chapter. I think it fair to say he was not a keen observer of the murder, but recalled certain events which transpired during the murder with seeming clarity, which is what one would expect. I am thinking first of all of the spacing of the shots, which would be easier to detect than where they came from. He also seems to indicated the limo stopped (he uses the word "caravan" but indicates the purpose was to allow the secret service to catch up to the limo). And of course the motorcycle going down. If anything in Summer's recollections contradicts what is seen in the extant Z-film, it is no wonder Mack's interview was less than revealing.

Edited by Daniel Gallup, 03 August 2011 - 12:31 PM.


#8 Pat Speer

Pat Speer

    Moderator

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5,429 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 03 August 2011 - 05:43 PM



Most Fortunately!

For those who are unaware, the Sixth Floor Museum at one time posted the "oral" interview with Mr. Summers.
Who also stated the approximate proximity of were the Presidential Limo was located at the time that he heard the last shot fired.


For those who are unaware, that interview is still available at the C-Span website, linked above. Four decades after, Mr. Summers' recollections about the source and timing of the shots
have little or no evidentiary value. For example, at about the 18:40 mark Gary Mack asks Summers to tap his knuckles on the table to indicate the timing of the shots. Summers does so
and indicates that there was no more than one second elapsed between the second and third shot.

Or as he told Larry Sneed, "As to the spacing of the shots, there was much more time between the first one and the second two, the second and the third. They were real close."

Now!

For those that are unaware, don't let anyone fool you into thinking Summers was a keen observer of the actual murder. He wasn't.

If you actually have any interest, don't take my word for it. Listen to his interview and see for yourself.

Or as Mr. Summers told Larry Sneed about the shots, "I'm not sure which one hit him where."

By the way, in that interview Gary Mack asks the most neutral and insipid questions imaginable.

Michael, thank you for the link to the Sneed chapter. I think it fair to say he was not a keen observer of the murder, but recalled certain events which transpired during the murder with seeming clarity, which is what one would expect. I am thinking first of all of the spacing of the shots, which would be easier to detect than where they came from. He also seems to indicated the limo stopped (he uses the word "caravan" but indicates the purpose was to allow the secret service to catch up to the limo). And of course the motorcycle going down. If anything in Summer's recollections contradicts what is seen in the extant Z-film, it is no wonder Mack's interview was less than revealing.



I've watched a number of the sixth floor interviews, and it is true that they are not as hard-hitting as one might hope. But...they are not supposed to be! It is important to keep in mind that they are voluntary interviews conducted as part of an oral history program. Oral history programs are not designed to arrive at any clear truth via cross-examination and follow-up questions etc... They are simply opportunities for people to tell their stories as they remember them. That's it. It is to the credit of the sixth floor, IMO, that they have even tried such a thing. I mean, NO ONE ELSE has!

FWIW, I do have a slight problem with the interviews, however. And that's their lack of availability. One might think that the sixth floor museum, with the public assistance it has received, and all the free gifts it has been given under the belief these gifts will be shared with the public, would put these interviews online for easy access to researchers. I mean, how much could this cost? A few thousand bucks, right? But no, the majority of these interviews have never been transcribed or made available to the public at large, and can only be viewed at the museum, by appointment. I'd like to believe this will be corrected in time. I mean, it is hard to attribute any malice on this issue. When I found there was an interview I just HAD to view, that of Lt. Day, the museum sent me a copy for a small price on the proviso I return it within ten days. I agreed and returned the interview as promised. I suspect they'd do the same for others.

#9 Bernice Moore

Bernice Moore

    Super Member

  • JFK
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3,954 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Canada

Posted 04 August 2011 - 01:34 AM

Chris; here's a short one, mentioning summers...fwiw...b

http://educationforu...?showtopic=9357

there is another thread titled..Altgens Malcolm Summers..Purvis..
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 but i cannot link to it...perhaps you can find in search i could not...b

Edited by Bernice Moore, 04 August 2011 - 02:09 AM.


#10 Thomas H. Purvis

Thomas H. Purvis

    Super Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5,055 posts

Posted 04 August 2011 - 09:06 PM


Most Fortunately!

For those who are unaware, the Sixth Floor Museum at one time posted the "oral" interview with Mr. Summers.
Who also stated the approximate proximity of were the Presidential Limo was located at the time that he heard the last shot fired.


For those who are unaware, that interview is still available at the C-Span website, linked above. Four decades after, Mr. Summers' recollections about the source and timing of the shots
have little or no evidentiary value. For example, at about the 18:40 mark Gary Mack asks Summers to tap his knuckles on the table to indicate the timing of the shots. Summers does so
and indicates that there was no more than one second elapsed between the second and third shot.

Or as he told Larry Sneed, "As to the spacing of the shots, there was much more time between the first one and the second two, the second and the third. They were real close."

Now!

For those that are unaware, don't let anyone fool you into thinking Summers was a keen observer of the actual murder. He wasn't.

If you actually have any interest, don't take my word for it. Listen to his interview and see for yourself.

Or as Mr. Summers told Larry Sneed about the shots, "I'm not sure which one hit him where."

By the way, in that interview Gary Mack asks the most neutral and insipid questions imaginable.



Tom

P.S. One can not establish exact elapsed time based on "earsay" testimony. Especially since the speed of sound is only accurate under given, established, and identical variables.

#11 Michael Hogan

Michael Hogan

    Super Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3,468 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 04 August 2011 - 10:44 PM


By the way, in that interview Gary Mack asks the most neutral and insipid questions imaginable.

I've watched a number of the sixth floor interviews, and it is true that they are not as hard-hitting as one might hope. But...they are not supposed to be! It is important to keep in mind that they are voluntary
interviews conducted as part of an oral history program. Oral history programs are not designed to arrive at any clear truth via cross-examination and follow-up questions etc... They are simply
opportunities for people to tell their stories as they remember them. That's it. It is to the credit of the sixth floor, IMO, that they have even tried such a thing. I mean, NO ONE ELSE has!


Larry Sneed has. He considered his book to be an an oral history.

If I had it to do over, I would slightly alter the wording of what I wrote above.
Gary Mack's questions were neutral and they were insipid. I stand by that.
Perhaps I would have done better to leave out the qualifiers most and
imaginable.

It is good of Pat to remind me to keep in mind that the interviews were
voluntary and conducted as part of an oral history program. I guess my
comment led him to believe that I thought it was a courtroom and the
witnesses were under oath, subpoenaed against their will.

Pat's point about what oral history programs are designed to do is taken,
but I would describe it differently than he did.

My use of the word neutral was not meant to be an indictment of the
interview, just an observation. And my use of the word insipid was
based on listening to the interview with Summers twice in full and
looking up the word in the dictionary before I used it. Merriam Webster
said it means "lacking in qualities that interest, stimulate, or challenge."

Four years earlier, Sneed had interviewed Summers and published his answers
in a story format for easier readablity. Pat, can you tell me what Mack's interview
added to the record? I can name a couple of small things. I liked the part where Mack
had Summers knock on the table to indicate the pace of the shots. Mack elicited from
Summers that he had seen the Zapruder film. When and where did he see it? What did
he think about it? Did it change his mind about anything he saw or heard that day?

Several times Summers said that he thought the first shot was a firecracker.
Mack never asked if it sounded any different than the second and third shots.

Summers told Sneed:

"When the President got the head wound he still hadn't come up to me yet.
I was still looking directly at him. Then the third one, he was right beside
me or something to that effect. I'm guessing that he would have been ten to twelve
feet away. And then the other one came which led me to believe it was several people
shooting rather than one. I thought it would have been hard for one man doing it all.
You hear that many shots that close together, you just don't think about them coming out
of one gun. That's the only time that I thought perhaps there could have been someone else.

A lot of people question that they could do it that quickly, especially those last two shots.
Certainly I had some doubts at that time that they were from the same gun because they were
real close. And that's the only time I had any doubts. But it seemed to me like it was
unreasonable that the guy would shoot that fast.

It surprised me when I wasn't called to testify before the Warren Commission because I thought
they were interviewing all eye witnesses...."

As I said, I liked when Mack had Summers rap the table to indicate shot spacing. But Mack refrained from asking
Summers more about any of the above. And what Summers saw and heard from the time the President's car turned onto
Elm Street until the time Summers left Dealey Plaza -- that's history. It should have been even more incumbent on
Gary Mack to ask Summers more about this, because he had the knowledge that Summers was never called by the WC.

It has nothing to do with wanting Mack to be hard-hitting. It has to do with having one of the closest eyewitnesses
tell us as completely as possible what he saw and what he heard and what he thought then and what he thinks now.

For instance, Mack could have asked Summers: "Why do you think you were never called by the Warren Commission?"

Or even: "Do you now believe there was only one shooter and if so, why?"

Did Mack ask Summers about the President's wounds? Or are any or all of these questions off-limits in an oral history?

Lest anyone claim these are the questions of a conspiracy believer, let me suggest that questions like this of a primary
eyewitness to an historical event should be just as important to those who believe there was a lone gunman on the sixth floor.

Mack seemed to think that by asking Summers about James Files he was being fair and doing his token conspiracy thing.

I don't see how anybody can read Sneed's chapter on Summers in No More Silence, then listen carefully
to the Sixth Floor Oral History interview and feel that the word insipid is that much of a stretch.

And finally, I'll add that I got an email from Gary Mack on my comment about his interview with Summers. I make a practice
of not responding privately to unsolicited emails that seem unfriendly and I make it a practice of not posting emails or excerpts
of emails from anyone. I can't decide if I should deviate from either of those practices.

Edited by Michael Hogan, 04 August 2011 - 10:48 PM.


#12 Thomas H. Purvis

Thomas H. Purvis

    Super Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5,055 posts

Posted 05 August 2011 - 08:10 PM

Chris; here's a short one, mentioning summers...fwiw...b

http://educationforu...?showtopic=9357

there is another thread titled..Altgens Malcolm Summers..Purvis..
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 but i cannot link to it...perhaps you can find in search i could not...b



My thanks for finding it. Knew that it was in there somewhere.


Tom


"And then the third was just about where I was at, rang out"



Malcolm Summers

P.S. Since Mr. Summers was located almost directly behind James Altgens who testified that the last shot fired struck JFK directly in front of him, and others also testified as to the general location of the Presidential Limousine at the time of the third shot,
it sort of indicates that the WC was not too truthful in their "THE SHOT THAT MISSED" and Z313 as the last shot impact.

Especially since the US Secret Service as well as the FBI both placed the third shot impact as having been directly out into Elm St. in front of James Altgens location.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm

Could it be that the WC lied to us all?????????

#13 William Kelly

William Kelly

    Super Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 9,154 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 06 August 2011 - 04:15 AM

Malcolm Summers gave an interview to The Sixth Floor Museum Oral History Project

http://www.c-spanvid...rogram/288318-1

He also gave an interview to Larry Sneed, published in No More Silence:

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

Summers mentions the motorcycle in the Sneed interview.


Thank you Michael and Gary, though I too would like to see the Sixth Floor Oral Histories transcribed, not an expensive task.

Here's Houston PD forensic artist Lois Gibson's sketch of the man Malcolm Summers described as being on the Grassy Knoll with a weapon.
A man of authority who told him, "You can get shot."


JFKcountercoup: Man on the Grassy Knoll

Edited by William Kelly, 06 August 2011 - 04:24 AM.


#14 Michael Hogan

Michael Hogan

    Super Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3,468 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 10 August 2011 - 01:19 AM



Most Fortunately!

For those who are unaware, the Sixth Floor Museum at one time posted the "oral" interview with Mr. Summers.
Who also stated the approximate proximity of were the Presidential Limo was located at the time that he heard the last shot fired.


For those who are unaware, that interview is still available at the C-Span website, linked above. Four decades after, Mr. Summers' recollections about the source and timing of the shots
have little or no evidentiary value. For example, at about the 18:40 mark Gary Mack asks Summers to tap his knuckles on the table to indicate the timing of the shots. Summers does so
and indicates that there was no more than one second elapsed between the second and third shot.

Or as he told Larry Sneed, "As to the spacing of the shots, there was much more time between the first one and the second two, the second and the third. They were real close."

Now!

For those that are unaware, don't let anyone fool you into thinking Summers was a keen observer of the actual murder. He wasn't.

If you actually have any interest, don't take my word for it. Listen to his interview and see for yourself.

Or as Mr. Summers told Larry Sneed about the shots, "I'm not sure which one hit him where."

Tom

P.S. One can not establish exact elapsed time based on "earsay" testimony. Especially since the speed of sound is only accurate under given, established, and identical variables.


Huh? I guess that explains why Emmett Hudson told Liebler that probably two minutes passed from the time the first shot was fired until the second shot was fired.

However! One can establish approximate elapsed time by using the ears that God gave them.

Edited by Michael Hogan, 10 August 2011 - 08:09 AM.


#15 Thomas H. Purvis

Thomas H. Purvis

    Super Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5,055 posts

Posted 12 August 2011 - 07:40 PM




Most Fortunately!

For those who are unaware, the Sixth Floor Museum at one time posted the "oral" interview with Mr. Summers.
Who also stated the approximate proximity of were the Presidential Limo was located at the time that he heard the last shot fired.


For those who are unaware, that interview is still available at the C-Span website, linked above. Four decades after, Mr. Summers' recollections about the source and timing of the shots
have little or no evidentiary value. For example, at about the 18:40 mark Gary Mack asks Summers to tap his knuckles on the table to indicate the timing of the shots. Summers does so
and indicates that there was no more than one second elapsed between the second and third shot.

Or as he told Larry Sneed, "As to the spacing of the shots, there was much more time between the first one and the second two, the second and the third. They were real close."

Now!

For those that are unaware, don't let anyone fool you into thinking Summers was a keen observer of the actual murder. He wasn't.

If you actually have any interest, don't take my word for it. Listen to his interview and see for yourself.

Or as Mr. Summers told Larry Sneed about the shots, "I'm not sure which one hit him where."

Tom

P.S. One can not establish exact elapsed time based on "earsay" testimony. Especially since the speed of sound is only accurate under given, established, and identical variables.


Huh? I guess that explains why Emmett Hudson told Liebler that probably two minutes passed from the time the first shot was fired until the second shot was fired.

However! One can establish approximate elapsed time by using the ears that God gave them.




An "essential variable" which one may wish to take into consideration!

The WC repeatedly "changed" wording within the testimony of many witnesses.
Be it to actually "change" certain meaning or to attempt to discredit the actual witness.
Since I was not present when Mr. Hudson was actually present, as with most items of the WC, I place little "full trust" in anything which the WC published, as being a given fact.

That would be especially true of anything in which Wesley Liebeler and/or Arlen Specter were involved.


Since "common sense" would dictate that there was not 2-minutes in the assassination shooting sequence, then it can be readily accepted that this is:

1. A complete misconception on the part of the witness
2. Some form of misunderstanding on the part of the stenographer taking the minutes of the testimony.
c. Another of those "changes" which were made to testimony without knowledge of the person giving the testimony.

Sufficient other witnesses, at least one of whom was quite reliable, ultimately testified as to the location of the third/last/final shot.

As to whether or not Mr. Hudson believes that there was a 2-minute elapsed time is irrelevant as to the overall conceptual and factual consensus of testimonies which clearly indicate:

A longer elapsed time span between shot#1 and Shot#2, than between Shot#2 and Shot#3.

Which is, and remains quite accurate when one takes into consideration the actual distance travelled by the Presidentual Limousine throughout the three-shot/three-impact sequence of the assassination.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users