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This is a new thread from the Irv Kupcinet thread, which started to focus on Camarillo Ranch, CA. It is 20 minutes away from the heart of Oxnard, going East. Oxnard came up as a woman there predicted to phone operators and their manager that Kennedy was going to be killed. This woman, btw, was not Karyn Kupcinet.

http://www.centex.com/directors.htm

Basically, due to James Richards and Norman George, I started my "uncanny" search over the Internet and found something. The Camarillo Ranch was owned by Centex Corp, who in turn donated it to the community of Camarillo. Camarillo was incorporated as a town in 1964. The Ranch now serves as a place to hold weddings, with its restored, big Victorian house. It came into my mind that John Armstrong was a builder, and would rather do that than finish his research on Donald O. Norton.

So I looked up Centex. Centex Corp is rated as the best builders by Fortune Mag. Here's the history of Centex ownership:

"The 4.5-acre Camarillo Ranch was given to the City of Camarillo by the Centex Corporation in 1997. Centex had acquired the property from a member of the Camarillo Family. Along with the Ranch, the City also received the barn and stable on the adjacent property. In 1999, the City, working with Centex, moved the massive red barn and stable to their current locations on the Ranch."

I wanted to see the Board of Directors and got a shock:

Among a dozen or so people, this name jumped out at me. Clint W. Murchison, III - Private Real Estate Development and Other Investments. His bio reads:

"Mr. Murchison is a regional trustee of the Boys and Girls Clubs of America.

"Mr. Murchison was grandfathered and exempted from the 20-year term limit adopted in 2004, in light of his significant tenure as a director.

"Because Centex is headquartered in Dallas, we have put a special emphasis on supporting nonprofit organizations in the Dallas/Fort Worth area that make our community a better place to live and work. Centex Corporation will invest about $1 million in the Dallas/Fort Worth community this year through our strategic community investment program. We will support about 20 area nonprofits through both funds and volunteer activities."

Well, there's some kind of connection. Can anyone else add more?

Kathy

post-5645-1182921763_thumb.jpg

Edited by Kathleen Collins

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Well the man pictured, Clint Murchison III, was only sixteen when JFK was killed. Somehow I doubt that he was part of any conspiracy. I think researchers have been more focused on his father, Clint Murchison II.

Query when Centex acquired the ranch? Was it even owned by Centex in 1963? According to James Richards, the ranch was purchased by the Great Lakes Carbon Company in 1965. That company was owned by relatives of Robert Kennedy. Since Centex donated the ranch to the City of Camarillo, its present owner, it would seem that Centex must have owned the ranch after Great Lakes Carbon?

Edited by Tim Gratz

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Hi Tim,

Welcome back.

In 1963, I believe the owners of the ranch were Isabel Burket, Carmen Camarillo Jones and the children of Ava Fitzgerald whose names escape me for now. At the time they owed the U.S. government some 2 million dollars in taxes.

James

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In the Kupcinet thread, James posted:

"That aside, it might be worth noting that in 1965, the Great Lakes Carbon Co. purchased the ranch. This company was owned by George, Rushton and James Skakel - Robert Kennedy's brothers-in-law.

"A year later George Skakel was killed in a plane crash. Also killed were Dean Markham, friend of RFK and who held several federal appointments, and Louis Werner who was the director of the St. Louis regional office of the CIA.

"Earl Ranft, trucking firm president and Donald Adams of Mountain Home Air Force base were also killed."

That George Skakel was George Skakel, Jr., Ethel's brother. Almost incredibly, ten years earlier both of their parents were killed in a plane crash as well.

Edited by Tim Gratz

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In the Kupcinet thread, James posted:

"That aside, it might be worth noting that in 1965, the Great Lakes Carbon Co. purchased the ranch. This company was owned by George, Rushton and James Skakel - Robert Kennedy's brothers-in-law.

"A year later George Skakel was killed in a plane crash. Also killed were Dean Markham, friend of RFK and who held several federal appointments, and Louis Werner who was the director of the St. Louis regional office of the CIA.

"Earl Ranft, trucking firm president and Donald Adams of Mountain Home Air Force base were also killed."

That George Skakel was George Skakel, Jr., Ethel's brother. Almost incredibly, ten years earlier both of their parents were killed in a plane crash as well.

How far is that from the Acacia Mansion. in Ojai, CA? That location is a very obscure locale that has a somewhat bizarre history as well.....

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In the Kupcinet thread, James posted:

"That aside, it might be worth noting that in 1965, the Great Lakes Carbon Co. purchased the ranch. This company was owned by George, Rushton and James Skakel - Robert Kennedy's brothers-in-law.

"A year later George Skakel was killed in a plane crash. Also killed were Dean Markham, friend of RFK and who held several federal appointments, and Louis Werner who was the director of the St. Louis regional office of the CIA.

"Earl Ranft, trucking firm president and Donald Adams of Mountain Home Air Force base were also killed."

That George Skakel was George Skakel, Jr., Ethel's brother. Almost incredibly, ten years earlier both of their parents were killed in a plane crash as well.

How far is that from the Acacia Mansion. in Ojai, CA? That location is a very obscure locale that has a somewhat bizarre history as well.....

**********************************************************8

"How far is that from the Acacia Mansion. in Ojai, CA? That location is a very obscure locale that has a somewhat bizarre history as well....."

From MapQuest:

Maneuvers Distance Maps

1: Start out going WEST on E OJAI AVE / CA-150 toward N MONTGOMERY ST. 0.4 miles Map

2: Turn SLIGHT LEFT onto W OJAI AVE / CA-150. Continue to follow CA-150. 2.8 miles Map

3: Stay STRAIGHT to go onto N VENTURA AVE / CA-33. Continue to follow CA-33 S. 11.1 miles Map

4: Merge onto US-101 S via the exit on the LEFT toward LOS ANGELES. 17.0 miles Map

5: Take the exit. 0.1 miles Map

6: Turn RIGHT onto VENTURA BLVD. <0.1 miles Map

7: End at Camarillo, CA US Map

Total Est. Time: 38 minutes Total Est. Distance: 31.60 miles

As the crow flies. These are small, sometimes winding 2-lane roads, taking in the more rural sections of Ventura County.

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In the Kupcinet thread, James posted:

"That aside, it might be worth noting that in 1965, the Great Lakes Carbon Co. purchased the ranch. This company was owned by George, Rushton and James Skakel - Robert Kennedy's brothers-in-law.

"A year later George Skakel was killed in a plane crash. Also killed were Dean Markham, friend of RFK and who held several federal appointments, and Louis Werner who was the director of the St. Louis regional office of the CIA.

"Earl Ranft, trucking firm president and Donald Adams of Mountain Home Air Force base were also killed."

That George Skakel was George Skakel, Jr., Ethel's brother. Almost incredibly, ten years earlier both of their parents were killed in a plane crash as well.

************************************************************

"That George Skakel was George Skakel, Jr., Ethel's brother."

Hey T.G.!

Good to see you back!

Ethel Skakel Kennedy. Spot on!

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Hi Tim...good to see you here again!

I just wanted to add that Ojai is an obscure small town, in a beautiful forest area. It is somewhat exclusive and has some cute little shops. I have to go through it in order to get to the Ventura, Oxnard, Camarillo areas, which is on the coastal highway However, I don't know anything about the Acacia Mansion.(By the way....Camarilla is pronounced Cam-ar-ee-a and Ojai is O-hi)

___________

Dixie

Edited by Dixie Dea

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Hi Tim...good to see you here again!

I just wanted to add that Ojai is an obscure small town, in a beautiful forest area. It is somewhat exclusive and has some cute little shops. I have to go through it in order to get to the Ventura, Oxnard, Camarillo areas, which is on the coastal highway However, I don't know anything about the Acacia Mansion.(By the way....Camarilla is pronounced Cam-ar-ee-a and Ojai is O-hi)

___________

Dixie

**********************************************************

"I have to go through it in order to get to the Ventura, Oxnard, Camarillo areas, which is on the coastal highway However, I don't know anything about the Acacia Mansion."

Hey Doo,

I've got a great idea! Why don't I pick you up in Bake some Saturday, and we motor down to Ojai, which BTW, in most Native American dialects, means "nest," and do some sleuthing to see what we can find out about The Acacia Mansion? We could swing on over to Camarillo and get some fruit at one of the roadside stands, and grab a bite to eat later on in the evening. Maybe after Labor Day, when I get back from Atlanta?

Talk to you this weekend.

Ter

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This is a new thread from the Irv Kupcinet thread, which started to focus on Camarillo Ranch, CA. It is 20 minutes away from the heart of Oxnard, going East. Oxnard came up as a woman there predicted to phone operators and their manager that Kennedy was going to be killed. This woman, btw, was not Karyn Kupcinet.

http://www.centex.com/directors.htm

Basically, due to James Richards and Norman George, I started my "uncanny" search over the Internet and found something. The Camarillo Ranch was owned by Centex Corp, who in turn donated it to the community of Camarillo. Camarillo was incorporated as a town in 1964. The Ranch now serves as a place to hold weddings, with its restored, big Victorian house. It came into my mind that John Armstrong was a builder, and would rather do that than finish his research on Donald O. Norton.

So I looked up Centex. Centex Corp is rated as the best builders by Fortune Mag. Here's the history of Centex ownership:

"The 4.5-acre Camarillo Ranch was given to the City of Camarillo by the Centex Corporation in 1997. Centex had acquired the property from a member of the Camarillo Family. Along with the Ranch, the City also received the barn and stable on the adjacent property. In 1999, the City, working with Centex, moved the massive red barn and stable to their current locations on the Ranch."

I wanted to see the Board of Directors and got a shock:

Among a dozen or so people, this name jumped out at me. Clint W. Murchison, III - Private Real Estate Development and Other Investments. His bio reads:

"Mr. Murchison is a regional trustee of the Boys and Girls Clubs of America.

"Mr. Murchison was grandfathered and exempted from the 20-year term limit adopted in 2004, in light of his significant tenure as a director.

"Because Centex is headquartered in Dallas, we have put a special emphasis on supporting nonprofit organizations in the Dallas/Fort Worth area that make our community a better place to live and work. Centex Corporation will invest about $1 million in the Dallas/Fort Worth community this year through our strategic community investment program. We will support about 20 area nonprofits through both funds and volunteer activities."

Well, there's some kind of connection. Can anyone else add more?

Kathy

Kathy - nice work. You are on to something. This may provide some info... I believe I read that the claim made by Wean was also substantiated in 'Contract on America' with respect to the phone records being handed to RFK - I don't have it handy, but made a mental note to review the reference someday.

Boggs: The fellow Butler, who works for the profit organizations that Dr. Oxnard heads to disseminate and tie Communist propaganda to Latin America, is the one who confronted him on the streets in New Orleans. I know Butler. He is a very fine young man. It was . . . Butler says that this w the first time that they established that he had been in Russia and that he had defected at one time and then returned. You have that undoubtedly in your files, that film, that tape that was made and borrowed in New Orleans?
I think it's possible Boggs was mistaken or that there was an error made here - Oschner is most likely the individual Boggs was talking about. I wonder if this was intentional?

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...1&hl=oxnard

http://www.ci.camarillo.ca.us/cultural/cityweb.html

Don Adolfo Camarillo sounded like an interesting historical figure - died in December of 1958. He left behind 4 daughters, 8 grandchildren and 21 great grandchildren. He was awarded the Order of St Gregory by Pius XII [The Pope responsible for the Ratlines]. 50 year Knight of Columbus, 70 as a Native Son of the Golden West. It would be interesting to learn more about the grandchildren.

When Adolfo Camarillo died in 1958, the ownership of the horses fell to his daughter Carmen, who faithfully carried on parading the horses for the enjoyment of the people of Ventura County until her death in 1987. On December 12, 1987, according to her wishes, the horses were sold at public auction, ending the tradition of exclusive ownership of the majestic white horses by the Camarillo family.

Dr. Louis Joyon "Jolly" West appears to have operated in Vacaville [which I sort of attempted to raise before when questioning Bugliosi's book and role with Manson], as well as Camarillo State Hospital - in addition to paying a little visit to Jack Ruby in Dallas [Wouldn't it have been nice to get some before and after video - of Ruby, and Goerring too, before Dulles had Cameron pay him a visit].

Keep up the good work Kathy [but watch your 6]!

- lee

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I just wanted to add a side tidbit in regard to the Camarillo State Mental Hospital....for those unaware of it. It is referred to as Hotel California. In fact, the Eagles song, Hotel California is about this facility and the building on the cover of the album is also of the facility. If interested there is a nice pictorial site at the following link.

Camarillo State Hospital

http://www.imagesmithstudio.com/sm/OHTour/OHindex.htm

___________

Dixie

Edited by Dixie Dea

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I just wanted to add a side tidbit in regard to the Camarillo State Mental Hospital....for those unaware of it. It is referred to as Hotel California. In fact, the Eagles song, Hotel California is about this facility and the building on the cover of the album is also of the facility. If interested there is a nice pictorial site at the following link.

Camarillo State Hospital

http://www.imagesmithstudio.com/sm/OHTour/OHindex.htm

___________

Dixie

____________________

Hi Dixie,

Thanks for sharing that! (And to think that I used to sing that song for an instrumentally-excellent Brno (Czech Republic) band, "Traffic Jam," at Molly's Irish Pub on Ceska Street because the lead singer didn't know the words, and to think that people actually applauded!!! .... LOL

--Thomas

____________________

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I'd have to check notes of interviews not at hand, but if my memory serves me, Plumlee said he flew Roselli and others to a landing-strip near that Ranch in the months before the events of Dallas. 

Peter,

I believe you are correct about the landing strip. There was also a weapons training facility not too far away.

James

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Guest Gary Loughran
I'd have to check notes of interviews not at hand, but if my memory serves me, Plumlee said he flew Roselli and others to a landing-strip near that Ranch in the months before the events of Dallas. 

Peter,

I believe you are correct about the landing strip. There was also a weapons training facility not too far away.

James

If my assumption is correct that Rosselli acted as a bag man for the plotters, is there significance to his arrival here in the months prior to the assassination vis either a hired assassin's part payment and/or supply of gear.

Hmm, weapons training nearby!!! Do 2+2 make 4 in this case?

PS. Forgot to add this

CAMARILLO FAMILY MAUSOLEUM

Situated at rear of St. Mary Magdalen Chapel, 2532 E. Ventura Blvd., Camarillo, CA 93010

Memorial Tablet at entrance to mausoleum reads:

in Memorium

Parents

Juan Camarillo

Born May 27, 1812 Died December 4, 1880

Martina Hernandez Camarillo

Born November 11, 1825 Died April 15, 1898

Liberi Born Died

Praxedes Camarillo July 9, 1842 April 11, 1869

Adelaida C. Moraga February 19, 1844 February 3, 1930

Aldegunda C. Del Campo January 6, 1846 March 22, 1927

Maria C. De Arnaz May 5, 1848 October 11, 1916

Francisca C. Wolfson June 4, 1850 December 4, 1873

Guadalupe Camarillo December 30, 1852 January 3, 1853

Luis Camarillo February 3, 1854 February 11, 1876

Nicefero Camarillo February 9, 1856 April 11, 1876

Magdelena Camarillo May 24, 1858 June 16, 1875

Arcadia C. Mahoney April 22, 1860 December 2, 1925

Adolfo B. Camarillo August 20, 1862 May 10, 1864

Adolfo N. Camarillo October 29, 1864 December 10, 1958

Juan E. Camarillo April 10, 1867 August 21, 1936

Jose Camarillo April 4, 1869 May 9, 1884

Tombstones on East Wall Born Died

William Wolfson 1873 1923

Ynez Petit December 16, 1915 July 7, 1917

Isabel Menchaca Camarillo November 5, 1861 July 19, 1936

Adolfo N. Camarillo October 29, 1864 December 10, 1958

Juan E. Camarillo, K. S. S. April 4, 1867 August 21, 1936

Martina Hernandez Camarillo November 11, 1825 May 15, 1898

Juan Camarillo May 27, 1812 December 4, 1880

Thomas J. Donovan February 22, 1864 June 11, 1946

Adelaida C. Moraga 1844 1930

Aldegunda C. Del Campo 1846 1927

Arcadia C. Mahoney 1860 1925

Lt.Col. John Camarillo Petit, U.S.M.C. May 3, 1917 May 14, 1952

Jose Camarillo 1869 1884

Nicefero Camarillo 1856 1876

Martina Camarillo 1895 1896

Minerva Camarillo 1888 1898

Praxides Camarillo 1842 1869

Francisca C. Wolfson 1850 1873

Luis Camarillo 1854 1876

Magdelena Camarillo 1858 1875

Tombstones on West Wall Born Died

Carmen Camarillo Jones July 20, 1903 May 19, 1987

Francisco A. Camarillo 1897 1952

Roy E. Jones 1901 1973

Alfred John Petit 1889 1960

James Leonard Nicholson 1922 1994

Rosa Camarillo Petit 1890 1986

Mary Louise Douglas 1896 1998

Jon Emory Petit January 4, 1944 March 9, 1995

Ave Camarillo Fitzgerald August 13, 1892 August 16, 1974

Isabel Camarillo Burket 1897 1963

Infant Parker July 20, 1965

George Gerald Fitzgerald July 16, 1887 April 10, 1952

Susana Burket Lamb 1929 1989

If it's any use

Edited by Gary Loughran

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