Did the limo stop? Really?

[Bernice Moore]

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/sorrels1.htm............Testimony Of Forrest V. Sorrels I just said, "What's that?" And turned around to look up on this terrace part there, because the sound sounded like it came from the back and up in that direction.

At that time, I did not look back up to the building, because it was way back in the back.

Within about 3 seconds, there were two more similar reports. And I said, "Let's get out of here" and looked back, all the way back, then, to where the President's car was, and I saw some confusion, movement there, and the car just seemed to lunch forward.

And, in the meantime, a motorcycle officer had run up on the right-hand side and the chief yelled to him, "Anybody hurt?"

He said, "Yes."

He said, "Lead us to the hospital."

And the chief took his microphone and told them to alert the hospital, and said, "Surround the building." He didn't say what building. He just said, "Surround the building." And by that time we had gotten almost in under the underpass, and the President's car had come up and was almost abreast of us.

When I saw them get so close, I said, "Let's get out quick," or "Get going fast," or something to that effect. In other words, I didn't want them to pass us, because I knew we were supposed to be in front.

And that is when they floor-boarded the accelerator on the police car and we got out in front. And someone yelled loudly to go to the nearest hospital.

[Daniel Gallup]

[

Remember that Chaney was on the rear right of the LIMO

to get to Currys car he would have to swing from right to left across in front of the limo or follow up car.

Altgen's 7 just as the lead car reaches the shadow area of the overpass

No Motorcycles to be seen anywhere, and that includes Chaney

If you wan't to stick with Hargis's evidence as the last word Good luck

I am done with it .

Robin, thanks for the information. Didn't mean to annoy you -- my questions were sincere and I am glad you answered them. Best, Daniel

No Problem Daniel.

Robin, another question -- in this last Altgens photo: what are we looking at behind Curry's car? I have been mystified over the years. Any thoughts? Best, Daniel

[John Dolva]

ss flag

[Daniel Gallup]

There must have been quite a bit of that sort of thing going on that day, Chris - and I thought Texas was a conservative sort of place:

1) Earl Cabell: “No; we couldn't tell. We could tell, of course, there was confusion in the presidential car--activity. The Secret Service men ran to that car,” 7WCH479.

2) James Chaney and other unnamed Dallas officers, as related by fellow motorcycle outrider, Marrion L. Baker: “I talked to Jim Chaney…during the time that the Secret Service men were trying to get into the car…from the time the first shot rang out, the car stopped completely, pulled to the left and stopped…I heard several of them say that, Mr. Truly he was standing out there, he said it stopped. Several officers said it stopped completely,” 3WCH265.

3) Norman Similas: “I swung back to look at the car. A Secret Service man ran up with his gun drawn…The Secret Service man opened the car door and I saw the President slumped down to the floor…,” Source: “‘I saw president fall’ – Willowdale man,” Toronto Daily Star, (All Star Night edition), Friday, 22 November 1963, pp.1&13

4) Robert Baskin: “The motorcade ground to a halt. There was a good deal of activity round the President’s car, with Secret Service men running about,” “Day Began As Auspiciously As Any in Kennedy’s Career,” The Dallas Morning News, 23 November 1963, p.2

5) DPD motorcycle officer Bobby Joe Dale (one of two rear mid-motorcade motorcycles): "After the shots were fired, the whole motorcade came to a stop. I stood and looked through the plaza, noticed there was commotion, and saw people running around his [JFK's] car. It started to move, then it slowed again; that's when I saw Mrs. Kennedy coming back on the trunk and another guy [Clint Hill] pushing her back into the car," Larry Sneed. No More Silence (1998), p. 134

Paul, I would sure like to talk to this Norman Similas. What he says here is at variance with everything I have read about the assasination. Opened a car door?!!? If Norman is correct it would seem quite a lot was excised from the Z-film. If he is correct there can be no doubt the limo stopped and Secret Service were around the car-- the point of Baskin and Dale. I would like to hear fron Toni Foster, who said the limo stopped for "seconds." If what these three say is true, it had to have stopped for seconds. Did she witness any such activity around the President's limo? Such an activity would be so obvious why would someone like Altgens deny any such thing happening? I also would have expected the Newmans, or Brehm, or Hill or Moorman to report something similar. All very confusing. Any thoughts? Best, Daniel

[Robin Unger]

ss flag

John is correct.

It's the flag on the front left side of the Limo, flapping in the wind

Hi Bernice

Curry and Sorrels testimony doesn't corrolate with what we see in the available images. ?

Sorrels

" And by that time we had gotten almost in under the underpass, and the President's car had come up and was almost abreast of us.

When I saw them get so close, I said, "Let's get out quick," or "Get going fast," or something to that effect. In other words, I didn't want them to pass us, because I knew we were supposed to be in front.

And that is when they floor-boarded the accelerator on the police car and we got out in front

That isn't what the McIntire photo or the Daniel film show. ?

And this is what Curry told Gary Mack in 1979

Quote:

As Chief Curry told me in 1979, he spoke with Chaney on the access ramp to Stemmons. At that time, the McIntire photo was unknown, but now I know that the area to which Curry referred was past McIntire's location. And Mel McIntire's photos were never out of his possession at any time. They were first published in 1983 in a Dallas Times Herald 20th anniversary special.

Gary Mack

Contradicting statements from Curry ?

We may never know what really happened after the limo went through the Underpass

Edited June 12, 2011 by Robin Unger

[Robin Unger]

McIntire and the Daniel frames shown below contradict Sorrels Testimony. ?

Sorrels

" And by that time we had gotten almost in under the underpass, and the President's car had come up and was almost abreast of us.

When I saw them get so close, I said, "Let's get out quick," or "Get going fast," or something to that effect. In other words, I didn't want them to pass us, because I knew we were supposed to be in front.

And that is when they floor-boarded the accelerator on the police car and we got out in front

Daniel frames showing the Limo out in front of the lead car.

Click on the image to view Full Size:

Edited June 12, 2011 by Robin Unger

[Robin Unger]

Daniel film frames

[Robin Unger]

It's possible that the lead car may have eventually regained the front position.

but by then it was too late, Curry had been caught asleep at the wheel

Sorrels Quote:

When I saw them get so close, I said, "Let's get out quick," or "Get going fast," or something to that effect. In other words, I didn't want them to pass us, because I knew we were supposed to be in front.

And that is when they floor-boarded the accelerator on the police car and we got out in front

Sorrels also said that Chaney had riden up along the right side of the lead car and had spoken to Curry.

Curry was driving, he was on the left side of the car.

[Bernice Moore]

ss flag

John is correct.

It's the flag on the front left side of the Limo, flapping in the wind

Hi Bernice

Curry and Sorrels testimony doesn't corrolate with what we see in the available images. ?

Sorrels

" And by that time we had gotten almost in under the underpass, and the President's car had come up and was almost abreast of us.

When I saw them get so close, I said, "Let's get out quick," or "Get going fast," or something to that effect. In other words, I didn't want them to pass us, because I knew we were supposed to be in front.

And that is when they floor-boarded the accelerator on the police car and we got out in front

That isn't what the McIntire photo or the Daniel film show. ?

And this is what Curry told Gary Mack in 1979

Quote:

As Chief Curry told me in 1979, he spoke with Chaney on the access ramp to Stemmons. At that time, the McIntire photo was unknown, but now I know that the area to which Curry referred was past McIntire's location. And Mel McIntire's photos were never out of his possession at any time. They were first published in 1983 in a Dallas Times Herald 20th anniversary special.

Gary Mack

Contradicting statements from Curry ?

We may never know what really happened after the limo went through the Underpass

Robin, i have been trying to reply to you, the loading on here appears to be really slow this evening and then not taking, ????? agreed we may never know, and agreed as a major problem is the differences not seen in comparison to the photographs to the witnesses statement, also gary sees the mcintire and all of a sudden he is overwelled to the point he contradicts Curry ??? has anyone checked within Curry's book to see if he has related any info in this regard..?? i tend to go with the witnesses statements, as they were there, we and others were not, thanks b..am trying one more time...

Edited June 13, 2011 by Bernice Moore

[Pat Speer]

ss flag

John is correct.

It's the flag on the front left side of the Limo, flapping in the wind

Hi Bernice

Curry and Sorrels testimony doesn't corrolate with what we see in the available images. ?

Sorrels

" And by that time we had gotten almost in under the underpass, and the President's car had come up and was almost abreast of us.

When I saw them get so close, I said, "Let's get out quick," or "Get going fast," or something to that effect. In other words, I didn't want them to pass us, because I knew we were supposed to be in front.

And that is when they floor-boarded the accelerator on the police car and we got out in front

That isn't what the McIntire photo or the Daniel film show. ?

And this is what Curry told Gary Mack in 1979

Quote:

As Chief Curry told me in 1979, he spoke with Chaney on the access ramp to Stemmons. At that time, the McIntire photo was unknown, but now I know that the area to which Curry referred was past McIntire's location. And Mel McIntire's photos were never out of his possession at any time. They were first published in 1983 in a Dallas Times Herald 20th anniversary special.

Gary Mack

Contradicting statements from Curry ?

We may never know what really happened after the limo went through the Underpass

Robin, i have been trying to reply to you, the loading on here appears to be really slow this evening and then not taking, ????? agreed we may never know, and agreed as a major problem is the differences not seen in comparison to the photographs to the witnesses statement, also gary sees the mcintire and all of a sudden he is overwelled to the point he contradicts Curry ??? has anyone checked within Curry's book to see if he has related any info in this regard..?? i tend to go with the witnesses statements, as they were there, we and others were not, thanks b..am trying one more time...

FWIW, Douglas Jackson's 11-22-63 notes acknowledged that he spoke to Chaney after stopping his motorcycle. This supports what we see in the Nix film--both men stopping. It also supports the other films in that it suggests that Chaney would have had a heckuva time catching up with the limo before it reached the underpass.

When we went through this before, I mused that the DPD was embarrassed that Chaney and Jackson slammed on their brakes under fire, and sought to hide this by casting Chaney as a heroic figure. I suspect, as well, that for this same reason Chaney and Jackson were not called or interviewed by the FBI or WC re the motorcade. (It is a mighty big coincidence, wouldn't you say?)