Len Colby Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 RE: the OP and claims of the Fetzer crowd one also has to consider all the witnesses who said nothing about the limo stopping or slowing. One must presume most if not all didn't notice a decrease in the car's speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Rigby Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Senator Ralph Yarborough sat the on the back seat behind the driver of the Vice-Presidential car. (7-10-64 affidavit, 7H439-440) “as the motorcade went down the slope of Elm Street toward the railroad underpass, a rifle shot was heard by me; a loud blast, close by….When the noise of the shot was heard, the motorcade slowed to what seemed to me a complete stop (though it could have been a near stop). After what I took to be about three seconds, another shot boomed out, and after what I took to be one-half the time between the first and second shots (calculated now, this would have put the third shot about one and one-half seconds after the second shot…) a third shot was fired. After the third shot was fired, but only after the third shot was fired, the cavalcade speeded up…" (Interview with Jim Marrs published in Crossfire, 1989) "I thought 'Was that a bomb thrown?" and then the other shots were fired. And the motorcade, which had slowed to a stop, took off." (1-18-92 Interview with Deborah and Gerald Strober, published in Let us Begin Anew, 1993) "The third one caused my confusion there. Immediately after the first shot the motorcade slowed up--slowed up to just nearly a walk. I thought it stopped. And I could smell smoke--gunsmoke --'cause it's coming down from that rifle right over us; we were in the back seat, behind it, that second shot, then it came. It was just like counting: one, two, three. I thought: My goodness. Was there a bomb? What's that smoke up there? And what are they stopping for?" Sen. Yarborough's recollections? Let's be really daring, shall we, Pat - and try published stuff from November 1963? http://thedriverkilledkenendy.blogspot.com/2011/05/senator-yardborough-saw-driver-shoot.html#links I loved this bit: “The third shot he heard might have been a Secret Service man returning the fire, he said” Almost as much as I liked this earlier line: "You could smell powder on our car all the way here to the hospital" Source: Carleton Kent, “Sen. Yarborough Terms It ‘A Deed of Horror,’” Chicago Sun-Times, 23 November 1963, p.14 No wonder you omitted this cutting from your list. Still, no excuses now, eh? Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Rigby Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 From what I've read in Speer's work, he believes a silencer was used in the assassination. Would you care mentioning any WC lawyer who came close to raising that possibility? Which WC lawyer believed in a shot after frame 312? Which WC lawyer believed the bag in the archives is not the original? Which WC lawyer believes Howard Hughes financed the assassination? Which WC lawyer believed in a shot from the DalTex building and a shot (or diversionary firecracker) from behind the arcade area? Good Lord, with one honourable exception*, what a far-out mish-mash. It's like Mae Brussel on acid. Those are all positions held by Pat Speer. I know. Embarrassing, isn't it? Thank goodness for the sober common sense of the in-car shootists. *CIA used a smoke-bomb as a distractor in the Audubon Ballroom on 21 Feb 1965. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted June 8, 2011 Author Share Posted June 8, 2011 Senator Ralph Yarborough sat the on the back seat behind the driver of the Vice-Presidential car. (7-10-64 affidavit, 7H439-440) “as the motorcade went down the slope of Elm Street toward the railroad underpass, a rifle shot was heard by me; a loud blast, close by….When the noise of the shot was heard, the motorcade slowed to what seemed to me a complete stop (though it could have been a near stop). After what I took to be about three seconds, another shot boomed out, and after what I took to be one-half the time between the first and second shots (calculated now, this would have put the third shot about one and one-half seconds after the second shot…) a third shot was fired. After the third shot was fired, but only after the third shot was fired, the cavalcade speeded up…" (Interview with Jim Marrs published in Crossfire, 1989) "I thought 'Was that a bomb thrown?" and then the other shots were fired. And the motorcade, which had slowed to a stop, took off." (1-18-92 Interview with Deborah and Gerald Strober, published in Let us Begin Anew, 1993) "The third one caused my confusion there. Immediately after the first shot the motorcade slowed up--slowed up to just nearly a walk. I thought it stopped. And I could smell smoke--gunsmoke --'cause it's coming down from that rifle right over us; we were in the back seat, behind it, that second shot, then it came. It was just like counting: one, two, three. I thought: My goodness. Was there a bomb? What's that smoke up there? And what are they stopping for?" Sen. Yarborough's recollections? Let's be really daring, shall we, Pat - and try published stuff from November 1963? http://thedriverkilledkenendy.blogspot.com/2011/05/senator-yardborough-saw-driver-shoot.html#links I loved this bit: “The third shot he heard might have been a Secret Service man returning the fire, he said” Almost as much as I liked this earlier line: "You could smell powder on our car all the way here to the hospital" Source: Carleton Kent, “Sen. Yarborough Terms It ‘A Deed of Horror,’” Chicago Sun-Times, 23 November 1963, p.14 No wonder you omitted this cutting from your list. Still, no excuses now, eh? Paul The quotes on this thread were ones relating to the limo stop. I thank you for the link to that article, however, and have added Yarborough's comments to my database. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Senator Ralph Yarborough sat the on the back seat behind the driver of the Vice-Presidential car. (7-10-64 affidavit, 7H439-440) “as the motorcade went down the slope of Elm Street toward the railroad underpass, a rifle shot was heard by me; a loud blast, close by….When the noise of the shot was heard, the motorcade slowed to what seemed to me a complete stop (though it could have been a near stop). After what I took to be about three seconds, another shot boomed out, and after what I took to be one-half the time between the first and second shots (calculated now, this would have put the third shot about one and one-half seconds after the second shot…) a third shot was fired. After the third shot was fired, but only after the third shot was fired, the cavalcade speeded up…" (Interview with Jim Marrs published in Crossfire, 1989) "I thought 'Was that a bomb thrown?" and then the other shots were fired. And the motorcade, which had slowed to a stop, took off." (1-18-92 Interview with Deborah and Gerald Strober, published in Let us Begin Anew, 1993) "The third one caused my confusion there. Immediately after the first shot the motorcade slowed up--slowed up to just nearly a walk. I thought it stopped. And I could smell smoke--gunsmoke --'cause it's coming down from that rifle right over us; we were in the back seat, behind it, that second shot, then it came. It was just like counting: one, two, three. I thought: My goodness. Was there a bomb? What's that smoke up there? And what are they stopping for?" Sen. Yarborough's recollections? Let's be really daring, shall we, Pat - and try published stuff from November 1963? http://thedriverkilledkenendy.blogspot.com/2011/05/senator-yardborough-saw-driver-shoot.html#links I loved this bit: “The third shot he heard might have been a Secret Service man returning the fire, he said” Almost as much as I liked this earlier line: "You could smell powder on our car all the way here to the hospital" Source: Carleton Kent, “Sen. Yarborough Terms It ‘A Deed of Horror,’” Chicago Sun-Times, 23 November 1963, p.14 No wonder you omitted this cutting from your list. Still, no excuses now, eh? Paul Thank you for that article , Paul. Since we don't see it on film, Yarborough was probably smoking pot when he described what happened. (Sarcasm intended) chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Thank you for that article , Paul. Since we don't see it on film, Yarborough was probably smoking pot when he described what happened. (Sarcasm intended) chris Chris, Please explain your somewhat peculiar response above ... are you saying that the Agent didn't turn around and tell the passengers to get down ... or that an agent may have returned fire to explain another shot Ralph heard but obviously didn't see the source of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Bill, I'm interested in the footage of the SS man beating his fists against the side of the limo. I believe Yarborough is the same person who described someone diving to the ground upon the knoll. (Gordon Arnold ring a bell)? chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted June 9, 2011 Author Share Posted June 9, 2011 Bill, I'm interested in the footage of the SS man beating his fists against the side of the limo. I believe Yarborough is the same person who described someone diving to the ground upon the knoll. (Gordon Arnold ring a bell)? chris Chris, Yarborough was almost certainly talking about Malcolm Summers, not Arnold. From Yarbourough's position at the time of the shooting, Summers would have been to the right of the limo, even though he was on the south side of the street. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Unger Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 (edited) Bill, I'm interested in the footage of the SS man beating his fists against the side of the limo. I believe Yarborough is the same person who described someone diving to the ground upon the knoll. (Gordon Arnold ring a bell)? chris Chris, Yarborough was almost certainly talking about Malcolm Summers, not Arnold. From Yarbourough's position at the time of the shooting, Summers would have been to the right of the limo, even though he was on the south side of the street. Pat Summers was my first pick also I'm not sure how how you place him on the right of the limo however. ? can you do a graphic showing what you mean. Also from memory, when Yarborough is talking about the man throwing himself down like a combat veteran, wasn't there mention of the grassy knoll and a wall ? can someone post the relevant information regarding this incident. Dallas Morning News (27th July, 1978) Gordon L. Arnold, a former Dallas soldier, said he was stopped by a man wearing a light-colored suit as he was walking behind a fence on top of the grassy knoll minutes before the assassination. Arnold, now an investigator for the Dallas Department of Consumer Affairs, was not called by the Warren Commission and has not been interviewed by the House Assassinations Committee. Arnold said he was moving toward the railroad bridge over the triple underpass to take movie film of the presidential motorcade when "this guy just walked towards me and said that I shouldn't be up there." Arnold challenged the man's authority, he said, and the man "showed me a badge and said he was with the Secret Service and that he didn't want anybody up there." Arnold then retreated to the front of the picket fence high up on the knoll just to the west of the pergola on the north side of Elm Street. As the Presidential Limousine came down Elm towards the triple underpass, Arnold stood on a mound of fresh dirt and started rolling his film. He said he "felt" the first shot come from behind him, only inches over his left shoulder, he said. "I had just gotten out of basic training," Arnold said, "In my mind live ammunition was being fired. It was being fired over my head and I hit the dirt." Arnold, then 22, said the first two shots came from behind the fence, "close enough for me to fall down on my face." He stayed there for the duration of the shooting. His fence position, under the shade of a tree, may have locked away his story for 15 years as the Warren Commission and later other assassination researchers scanned photographs and movie footage of Dealey Plaza for witnesses to the shooting. The first two shots that Arnold heard did not come from the Texas School Book Depository Building because "you wouldn't hear a whiz go over the top of your head like that." He said, "I say a whiz — you didn't really hear a whiz of a bullet, you hear just like a shock wave. You feel it . . . You feel something and then a report comes right behind it. It's just like the end of a muzzle blast." He said he heard two shots, "and then there was a blend. For a single bolt action, he had to have been firing darn good because I don't think anybody could fire that rapid a bolt action." "The next thing I knew someone was kicking my butt and telling me to get up." Arnold said, "it was a policeman. And I told him to go jump in the river. And then this other guy - a policeman - comes up with a shotgun and he was crying and that thing was waving back and forth. I said you can have everything I've got. Just point it someplace else." Arnold took his film from the canister and threw it to the policeman. "It wasn't worth three dollars and something to be shot. All I wanted them to do was to take that blooming picture (film) and get out of there, just let me go. That shotgun and the guy crying over there was enough to unnerve me for anything." Ralph Yarborough "The Secret Service in the car in front of us [the car behind Kennedy's car] kind of casually looked around, looked up at the back of them and were rather slow to react. We went under the overpass and as we came up on the other side, I could see then the President's car. And there was [Clint] Hill whom I knew as a Secret Service man assigned to protect Mrs. Kennedy. He was lying across the back [of the car] to hang on with his arm over in there so he could hang on at that high speed. His face turned back towards us, just in agony; & beating with his hand [against the car] like a terrible thing had happened. I knew then that Kennedy'd been shot. *From The Men Who Killed Kennedy – The Coup d'état, N. Turner, 1988 Edited June 9, 2011 by Robin Unger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 (edited) Chris, Yarborough was almost certainly talking about Malcolm Summers, not Arnold. From Yarbourough's position at the time of the shooting, Summers would have been to the right of the limo, even though he was on the south side of the street. Yet when I spoke to Golz personally - he told me of his correspondence back and forth with Yarborough and that Yarborough said that the man he saw was the man mentioned in Earl's article. When I said to Earl that some have claimed that it was Bill Newman down by the street that Yarborough was talking about - Earl seemed puzzled as to how anyone could say that and that they are wrong about that. When 'The Men who killed Kennedy' was done, Ralph made it clear that he was talking about the individual seen beyond the wall, which was what he told Golz ten years earlier. As far as I know - Golz is still alive and has been since my posting this information over a decade ago. I have yet to read a post whereas someone followed up so to say Golz told them anything different. From where I sit ... If Earl thought Newman being confused for the man up on the knoll was wrong ... saying it was the man on the south pasture is even further from the facts as Earl gave them to me. I also believe that if re-examined that one would see that Yarborough's car had progressed close to the location where the limo is in the Willis photo. regardless, I have shared what Golz told me personally. Edited June 9, 2011 by Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Bill, I'm interested in the footage of the SS man beating his fists against the side of the limo. I believe Yarborough is the same person who described someone diving to the ground upon the knoll. (Gordon Arnold ring a bell)? chris Chris, Yarborough was almost certainly talking about Malcolm Summers, not Arnold. From Yarbourough's position at the time of the shooting, Summers would have been to the right of the limo, even though he was on the south side of the street. Pat, Yarborough says he saw a man jump about 10 feet and land against a wall. That is from "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" COUP D'ETAT section at approx 1:18:35 into it. chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted June 9, 2011 Author Share Posted June 9, 2011 Chris, Yarborough was almost certainly talking about Malcolm Summers, not Arnold. From Yarbourough's position at the time of the shooting, Summers would have been to the right of the limo, even though he was on the south side of the street. Yet when I spoke to Golz personally - he told me of his correspondence back and forth with Yarborough and that Yarborough said that the man he saw was the man mentioned in Earl's article. When I said to Earl that some have claimed that it was Bill Newman down by the street that Yarborough was talking about - Earl seemed puzzled as to how anyone could say that and that they are wrong about that. When 'The Men who killed Kennedy' was done, Ralph made it clear that he was talking about the individual seen beyond the wall, which was what he told Golz ten years earlier. As far as I know - Golz is still alive and has been since my posting this information over a decade ago. I have yet to read a post whereas someone followed up so to say Golz told them anything different. From where I sit ... If Earl thought Newman being confused for the man up on the knoll was wrong ... saying it was the man on the south pasture is even further from the facts as Earl gave them to me. I also believe that if re-examined that one would see that Yarborough's car had progressed close to the location where the limo is in the Willis photo. regardless, I have shared what Golz told me personally. I just looked back into this a bit. When one looks at where Yarborough was at the time of the head shot, and where Kennedy was at that time, and assumes he was looking in that direction, it's easy to see that Malcolm Summers would have been in his field of view, right in front of him, a little to the left (or possibly) even to the right (depending on the angles of the cars on the street) of Kennedy. This led me to believe the man Yarborough thought he saw jump to the ground was Summers. It's also true, however, that Yarborough initially said he saw people throw themselves down on an embankment. This is an obvious reference to the Newmans. He also, much later, said something about a man throwing himself into a wall. "During that shooting my eye was attracted to the right. I saw a movement and I saw a man just jump about ten feet like at the old time flying tackle in football and land against a wall. I thought to myself, “There’s an infantryman who’s either been shot at in combat or he’s been trained thoroughly: the minute you hear firing, get under cover.” So, assuming he's not remembering things incorrectly, I don't know who he's talking about. One possibility is that he's talking about the third man on the steps with Hudson who raced up the steps. Did this man crash into a wall at the top of the steps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 (edited) Please add this to the files on who Yarborough was talking about and keep in mind that Golz's article told about a military man ... not a guy in street clothes. Mack writes: As you and I have discussed several times, Earl Golz confirmed to me years ago that immediately after the Arnold story appeared in The Dallas Morning News in 1978, Yarborough called him from Austin, Texas with confirmation. Yarborough's specific purpose was to say he "had seen the man you wrote about." That alone eliminates Bill Newman, Malcolm Summers, or anyone else, for Earl's story was about the soldier up on the hill. Earl mentioned that phone call in a late December 1978 DMN story about the HSCA. Edited June 9, 2011 by Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Bill, I'm interested in the footage of the SS man beating his fists against the side of the limo. I believe Yarborough is the same person who described someone diving to the ground upon the knoll. (Gordon Arnold ring a bell)? chris I believe that it wasn't the side of the limo, but rather he was talking about Hill hitting the car as if something tragic had happened. Does that not ring a bell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Gallup Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 (edited) A bullet may travel beyond the capacity of a camera to capure it in flight, but bones, blood and brains are a different story, and not seeing them exiting the back of Kennedy's head really bothers me-- bigtime. The bone frags seen 7 to 9 feet in the air above the limo were the slower moving pieces and had the camera's shutter of operated a fraction of a frame later - they may not have been seen at all. Keep in mind that frame Z313 is only a picture of a moment in time. As far as how fast the speed of brain matter and other debris travels along the bullets path ... you might have to consult an expert like did. That debris traveled fast enough that when Hargis was hit with it - he thought he had been shot. Bill, I agree with you about Hargis. Now you might be better able to inform me, but I read somewhere that ITEK concluded that no debris exists exiting the back of Kennedy's head is in evidence in 313. Of course this has been my point from the beginning: that the absence of any evidence of blowout to the back in that frame is an impossibility. It doesn't take an expert to know that some material would blast out quickly, but not all, and not invisibly. Some might be missed by the camera, but if we take McClelland's estimate that a third or so of the right posterior cerebral and some cerebellar tissue had been blased out, your would have to say it was all gone from the camera's view-- all trace of it--in a very small fraction of a second--certainly a small fraction of the 1/18 of a second the shutter is open. This would have made Toni Foster's remark: "The spray went behind him" an impossibility. Before she could even comprehend what had happened, the spray would be gone, and all she would see is back splatter. I am given to understand that the brain traumatized by the bullet becomes soft and jelly-like (Jenkins in ITYOH p. 81). I can't imagine supersonic soft and jelly-like brains being missed by the camera. I think your expert either believes there was no ejecta out of the back of the head, or is just plain mistaken. That there would be no lingering evidence of such a blowout is incomprehensible to me, and defies all common sense. Not all of the brain is in the path of the bullet; the brain further removed from the path would presumably leave the head in time to be captured by the camera. I don't know how it was done, but the blood and brains exiting the back of the head was removed from the extant film. This makes infinitely more sense to this reader. Ask your expert about my comments, and her (if it is Sherry) response. Thanks in advance, Daniel Edited June 10, 2011 by Daniel Gallup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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