Possible escape routes of the four Ramblers used in the assassination of JFK

[Karl Kinaski]

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Edited July 31, 2012 by Karl Kinaski

[Karl Kinaski]

You are right, Duke. Carr saw the man get into a rambler at the corner record/commerce street...the Paschall film shows a rambler at the corner Record/main.

Two possibilities here: the Record Str. Rambler drove south on Rec. Str. after the shooting...or: we have to deal with a fifth Rambler in the vicinity of the killing-zone...

It is snowing Ramblers...I know for you all these Ramblers were hallucinations of witnesses...

KK

[Duke Lane]

RE: You are right, Duke. Carr saw the man get into a rambler at the corner record/commerce street...the Paschall film shows a rambler at the corner Record/main."

I'm glad you finally noticed the geography, but please don't misquote me as saying there was a RAMBLER in the Paschal film. There is a station wagon there, but as to its being a particular make & model, that's an OPINION of YOURS, NOT an established or acknowledged FACT.

RE: "Two possibilities here: the Record Str. Rambler drove south on Rec. Str. after the shooting...or: we have to deal with a fifth Rambler in the vicinity of the killing-zone..."

There are other possibilities, not all including the OPINION that the Record/Main station wagon was a Rambler, and not all even including the remote possibility that Carr saw one. But repeat it often enough and maybe you'll get someone to believe it.

As I'd said, seeing several Ramblers in a small area in 1963 is no more remarkable than seeing a dozen F-150s downtown today. But it's not ESTABLISHED that there was more than ONE, apparently seen by three other men in front of TSBD. Carr COULD NOT see one beside the TSBD on Houston from where he SAID he was, which is NOT where you THINK he was.

RE: "It is snowing Ramblers...I know for you all these Ramblers were hallucinations of witnesses..."

I've already said otherwise, but maybe if you keep repeating it...? Even 20 Ramblers downtown does not a blizzard make. Have you ever seen photos of how large a crowd was dispersing on Main Street after the parade passed, *minutes* after JFK did? Robin Unger may have some. When you do, think of how that veritable sea of people might have inhibited vehicular movement....

I have DONE my homework, Karl. It is clear you're still working on last month's assignments, and I'm having a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.

[Duke Lane]

edit

Wasn't the original something exactly like:

"

------------ QUOTE ----------

Duke Lane

Nobody other than you is making a firm claim that the Paschal film shows a Rambler anyway ... and Carr in any case didn't claim to see it at the corner where the Paschal station wagon is seen.

-----------------------------

Quote spartacus about Carr:

After the shooting Carr saw the man emerge from the building. Carr followed the man and later told the FBI (http://www.spartacus...o.uk/USAfbi.htm): "This man, walking very fast, proceeded on Houston Street south to Commerce Street to Record Street. The man got into a 1961 or 1962 gray Rambler station wagon which was parked just north of Commerce Street on Record Street."

Do your homework" ...?

Quick reversal there, just 45 minutes to change your mind. The Paschal station wagon machts nichts, Rambler or not. Pity that your reference page mentions absolutely nothing about Carr. Maybe you're thinking of http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKcarrR.htm ...? Easy error.

Edited July 31, 2012 by Duke Lane

[Karl Kinaski]

edit, because of wrong claim

Back to topic:

Now we have:

- A parking lot Rambler, and get the fence shooter into it...witness: Hoffman

- A Elm street rambler and get (a running)Oswald into it: witness Craig

- Huston Street rambler, and three to four hasty men get into it: witness Carr

- Rambler Commerce/Rec. str. and get a suspicious man with horn rimmed glasses into it: witness Carr

- Rambler Main/Rec.Street: visible on the Paschall film...

How do you deal with it: I tend to see a pattern here...

Edited August 2, 2012 by Karl Kinaski

[Duke Lane]

That's you Lone nutters ...

(snicker!)

Karl, Karl, Karl. (sigh) You're showing off your reading skills, and not in a good way.

I've got over 1500 posts on this forum, and I'd daresay that you won't find any that propose an Oswald-did-it scenario. I'm not a LNer just because you want to think that I am, or because you think it'll further your argument. Quite the opposite, I fear: you're showing yourself as close-minded, uncritical and gullible; I disagree with your unfounded thesis, so I'm "the enemy."

You also haven't even read all there is from the WC through Penn Jones and Jim Garrison about what Carr had to say. You don't know where he was or when, so are in no position either to judge what he did or could have seen, or to evaluate what "evidence" he might have provided.

Are you even aware how disparate the accounts he gave to Penn Jones and, subsequently on Jones' recommendation, to Garrison at trial and under oath? Are you aware that his entire purported military record that he uses to support his "expert" claim is a fabrication?

I didn't think so.

Provide me with an original citation (not a quote from a book) where Carr says he was at ground level when he saw the "Houston Street Rambler." If you can't find it - which you won't - tell me where he did say he was when he saw it, and then prove to me that he could have seen it.

You can't because he couldn't. FACT.

Back to topic:

Now we have:

- A parking lot Rambler, and get the fence shooter into it...witness: Hoffman

- A Elm street rambler and get (a running)Oswald into it: witness Craig

- Huston Street rambler, and three to four hasty men get into it: witness Carr

- Rambler Commerce/Rec. str. and get a suspicious man with horn rimmed glasses into it: witness Carr

- Rambler Main/Rec.Street: visible on the Paschall film...

How do you deal with it: I tend to see a pattern here...

I see a pattern of someone who believes illusions and impossibilities.

You only think that the station wagon in Paschal is a Rambler, and when you finally realized that a car at Main & Record is not in the same place as one at Commerce & Record, you simply decided that someone moved the car. Do you remember Carr's claim that the car left Record Street northbound? That's in the opposite direction of where you decided it "moved" to (south one block), which it could only have done by going against one-way traffic. I'm sure you've got an explanation for that which you can satisfy yourself with.

I'll also bet that you have an explanation for how Carr's supposed "Houston Street Rambler" left the scene without being seen by anyone else (including two guys who were watching that area) and over a road that was torn up and closed for construction. Or maybe you've got photographic proof that it was there? Surely someone took a photo of the intersection to show the Rambler parked on the wrong-way side of the street, no? Point out the Rambler in it.

The only thing you've really got to support your argument is Craig's (and Cooper and Robinson's, let's not forget them) Elm Street Rambler, all of whom tell essentially the same story (a thing called "corroboration"). The rest is bull and/or imaginative conjecture.

You have your beliefs, and it's quite clear nothing's going to shake them, as if you'd pay attention to anything contrary anyway (hands over ears, singing "la-la-la-la," not even up to the comic relief of Helen Markham playing peek-a-boo with the Tenth Street killer).

Your ignorance is summed up in your first sentence. I think I'm done here.

[Mark Knight]

Now, if I'm going to come up with a small "fleet" of cars to move a number of people relatively unnoticed around downtown Dallas before and after the assassination [assuming a conspiracy was involved], what would be more universal than a Rambler station wagon in 1963?

For 1960 and 1961, Rambler was third in American car sales, behind Chevrolet and Ford. Other than changes in grilles and tail lights, visually the 1958-61 Ramblers had more in common than they had differences. And in 1963, a 5-year-old Rambler could be purchased for well under $1000. Plus, Ramblers were known for their fuel economy. Given all this, a Rambler station wagon--or a small fleet of them--would make excellent vehicles for access to, and escape from, Dealy Plaza without arousing a lot of suspicion.

BUT as Duke has so ably pointed out, not ALL the Rambler sightings in Dallas on November 22, 1963 were sinister in nature...nor were all the REPORTED sightings even possible. Carr's testimony at various times was inconsistent. Sometimes it was inconsistent with his previous and his later statements, and sometimes it was inconsistent with what he could possibly have seen at the time and place he claimed to see it.

Duke is NOT a lone nutter. But Duke prefers to deal in things than can be supported by facts, and not all of Carr's statements fall into that category.

[J. William King]

Ok, I'm wondering if this Ramber is part of the blizzard. It's only a Rambler American instead of the "large" Rambler, but it IS a Ramber station wagon, and it WAS at the corner of Elm and Houston a few minutes after the assassination. Anyone know exactly when this Murray photo was taken?

Edited August 2, 2012 by J. William King

[Bernice Moore]

William this may help, all i have found so far.by Jerry Dealey.best b..

Found the reference: in Pictures of the Pain, page 493, Trask says "Murray estimates it took him about three minutes after hearing the three reports to get to his car and prepare his cameras."

Trask then shows your picture as the FIRST that Murray took.

Murray was actually in the Sheriff's office when the assassination took place, but got to his car and went into the Plaza. Trask says he found a place to park on Houston St, by the rear loading dock of the TSBD.

He would have had to leave the Sheriff's office on Main and Houston, go to his car behind the TSBD, prepare his cameras, and then come back out to the Plaza area. This would probably take a little longer than the 3 minutes, but he was a free-lance photographer, so he knew the value of immediate reactions, and would have HURRIED!

Probably shooting well before the 12:40 time, as some of his distance shots show the Hertz sign at 12:40, and we know this shot was the first that he took.

I have to look at other photos to see if this station wagon was still there later on.

Respectfully,

Jerry Dealey

[Bernice Moore]

William here is a bit further and the link.....b

It was taken within 10 minutes of the shooting. Richard Trask owns all of the late Jim Murray's original negatives and he interviewed the freelance photographer extensively. In his book That Day In Dallas, Trask wrote that Murray said it took him about three minutes to reach his car next to the TSBD and begin loading his two cameras with film. The crying photo was #4 (the first three were misfires), so it was probably taken around 12:35. The earliest Murray photo that can be accurately timed came minutes later at 12:39, when the clock on top of the TSBD appeared in several of his other pictures.

The car is parked on the corner of Elm (and extension) and Houston with the DalTex building in the background.

http://www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=3&topic_id=55842&mesg_id=55842&page=&topic_page=2

[J. William King]

Thanks Bernice. I had mentioned this car and the picture in a thread long ago on here. Gary Mack emailed me and said it was probably taken at about 12:35pm. This is what he wrote back to me about the picture (I hope it's ok to post emails on here).

It was taken within 10 minutes of the shooting. Richard Trask owns all of the late Jim Murray's original negatives and he interviewed the freelance photographer extensively. In his book That Day In Dallas, Trask wrote that Murray said it took him about three minutes to reach his car next to the TSBD and begin loading his two cameras with film. The crying photo was #4 (the first three were misfires), so it was probably taken around 12:35. The earliest Murray photo that can be accurately timed came minutes later at 12:39, when the clock on top of the TSBD appeared in several of his other pictures.

Edited August 3, 2012 by J. William King

[Bernice Moore]

your welcome William,i do not know positively any longer about posting contents of emails, there was a thread touching on this subject again of late, but i do not know if anything was finalized, i do know not to post email addresses, but i did get a grin, both replys are exactly the same, worded info, i guess Gary love noted Jerry first, back on Lancer and now similar to you.....he's a busy boy....b

[J. William King]

I don't know when Jerry made that statement, but Gary sent me that email back on June 27, 2006. I didn't even notice that the wording was the same. Maybe Jerry got that answer from Gary when he asked him a similar question, or, maybe Jerry got that from one of my posts back in 2006 when, I think, I quoted the same email from Gary. If I remember correctly, the thread had something to do with suspicious vehicles on Nov. 22.

No matter...the information is what is important. There WAS a Rambler station wagon at Elm and Houston 5 to 10 minutes after the shooting.

Edited August 3, 2012 by J. William King

[Jerry Dealey]

I don't know when Jerry made that statement, but Gary sent me that email back on June 27, 2006. I didn't even notice that the wording was the same. Maybe Jerry got that answer from Gary when he asked him a similar question, or, maybe Jerry got that from one of my posts back in 2006 when, I think, I quoted the same email from Gary. If I remember correctly, the thread had something to do with suspicious vehicles on Nov. 22.

No matter...the information is what is important. There WAS a Rambler station wagon at Elm and Houston 5 to 10 minutes after the shooting.

William, It was not a statement I made. She is actually quoting YOU. http://www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=3&topic_id=55842&sub_topic_id=55848&mesg_id=&page=#55890

[David Josephs]

On 6/25/2012 at 12:03 PM, Malcolm Ward said:

Re Tidy Laundromat.

I believe the Penningtons saw Oswald at the Tidy Lady Laundromat

in the 12:50's before one o'clock. Most people will only accept a one

Oswald involvment and will forced to choose between the modes of potential

transporation. It fits well with me with two Oswalds, in all the modes of

transportation, with one setting the other one up...then, and the days and

weeks prior which are so well documented.

Source:

http://groups.google...a0abee?lnk=raot

The Tidy Lady Laundromat was located on Davis Street as well.

Source:

http://www.jfkassass...p?topic=5830.24

The light-colored Rambler station wagon that was seen with someone who was practically a double for Lee Harvey Oswald passed under the triple-underpass at 12:40 P.M.

A few blocks beyond that overpass is the Commerce Street Viaduct, leading directly into Oak Cliff. It is practically certain that after the Rambler with an unknown driver and a “Oswald impostor” left the Depository it crossed the viaduct, and after turning left on Sylvan Street drove 12 blocks further going south on Davis St. Three blocks away was the Tidy Lady Launderette. The drive from the Texas School Book Depository, would have taken 7 or 8 minutes. It is at the launderette where the car stopped. It would have been within a minute or so of 12:47 P.M.

The Tidy Lady (1227 Davis) was at the corner of Davis St and North Clinton St. There were only two people in the laundromat, at that time John Wesley and Oda Pennington. The car with the two fugitives parked on the east side of North Clinton St., by the side door of the laundromat. The young man who exited the car passed the laundromat and then turned around and entered, making a beeline towards the payphone. A brief pause and the Pennington’s heard the caller speaking in Spanish, in the FBI report, the Pennington’s felt that the man acted as if he was in trouble, under the circumstances, the Pennington’s were no doubt, accurate in their were perception. What happened to the driver is not certain but he may have left the scene as soon as he parked the car, which is what the Oswald impostor did as soon as he finished his call. He was last seen walking South on North Clinton St.

The car had been abandoned. When the couple were shown a photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald, they said he “appeared” to be the same person.

Just as compelling is how close the laudromat was to Jefferson Street, the location of the Texas Theater, and on the other side of Jefferson St. in the distance was the apartment of Jack Ruby. The Tidy Lady Lauderette on Clinton Street was only five blocks south away from Jefferson Street.

paraphrased from pages 831-832 Harvey and Lee - John Armstrong

So if you are trying to ascertain if another person was "in play" on Jefferson Street besides Lee Oswald, this scenario definitely seems pertinent. End of account. Yes....End of story? Definitely not.

There was also a Clarence Otis Pennington in W. Virginia who was interviewed by the FBI, at this point it is not known whether the individual Oda Pennington was related to Clarence Pennington. However there is a very sophisticated genealogy website and Family organization named Pennington Research Association, that almost without question makes mention of an C.O. Pennigton and “his wife Ida!”......If you surmised that the Pennington’s are interesting you would be right....

Source:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=3128&st=150

Is there a connection here that I am assuming or am I circling it?

West Davis Street....

At the same time Tippit is sent to Oak Cliff, Call # 87 - Patrolman R. C. NELSON - is also sent to Oak Cliff

12:45	Dispatcher	87, 78, move into central Oak Cliff area.
12:45	87 (Ptm. R.C. Nelson)	87's going north on Marsalis at R.L. Thornton.

12:52	87 (Ptm. R.C. Nelson)	87
12:52	Dispatcher	87
12:52	87 (Ptm. R.C. Nelson)	87 out down here.

So here we are with one of the DPD men assigned to Oak Cliff with Tippit, yet within 10 mins of his shooting, NELSON is back at the TSBD...  ???
When he is ordered to 4340 W Davis  (corner of W Davis and Cockrell Hill Rd.) and just under 3 miles WEST of the TIDY LADY

1:19	87 (Ptm. R.C. Nelson)	87
1:19	Dispatcher	87
1:19	87 (Ptm. R.C. Nelson)	I'm in my car here at Elm and Houston. Do you want me over there?
1:19	Dispatcher	87, report to 4340 West Davis at the service station for information regarding suspect on this Signal 19 of the President.
1:19	87 (Ptm. R.C. Nelson)	4340
1:19	Dispatcher	Code 3.

 

Since the TIDY LADY sighting is put prior to 1pm, and EL CHICO is around 2pm is it possible that this white wagon (Rambler?) and the FALCON are connected?

From JFK and the Unspeakable – Why He Died and Why It Matters by James Douglas

      This is about 2:pm while Lee Oswald sits in the Dallas lock up
Convinced of his duty, T. F. White took Wise into EI Chico’s parking lot and walked him step by step through his “full face” encounter with Oswald. Wise realized the car had been parked at the center of Oswald’s activity in Oak Cliff that afternoon: one block from where Oswald got out of the taxi, six blocks south of his rooming house, eight blocks north of his arrest at the Texas Theater, and only five blocks from Tippit’s murder on a route in between.

Taking notes on his luncheon invitation, Wise said, “I just wish you had gotten the license number.”

“This is it,” he said.

FBI agent Charles T. Brown, Jr., reported from an interview with Milton Love, Dallas County Tax Office: “1963 Texas License Plate PP 4537 was issued for a 1957 Plymouth automobile in possession of Carl Amos Mather, 4309 Colgate Street, Garland, Texas.”
 

1:24	87 (Ptm. R.C. Nelson)	87. (Siren)
1:24	Dispatcher	87
1:24	87 (Ptm. R.C. Nelson)	Was that 4340 West Davis?
1:24	Dispatcher	Yes.
1:24	87 (Ptm. R.C. Nelson)	10-4.
1:24	Dispatcher	Somebody pulled in there and bought some gas; driving a white Pontiac '61 or '62 station wagon with the prefix P(ecos) E(llis). He had a rifle laying on the seat.
1:24	87 (Ptm. R.C. Nelson)	10-4.

 

Not exactly sure what the significance of 4340 W Davis is yet....  or whether this even relates to Tippit/JFK...  I simply find it odd that 87-NELSON disobeys orders, returns to the vicinity of the TSBD and then is sent on a seemingly wild goose chase many miles from where the activities occurred... While the EL CHICO was a known meeting place for Cuban groups and only blocks from all the activity...  the TIDY LADY is only just around the corner from where IGOR VAGANOV and girlfriend were shacked up that day...  at 815 Sunset.

VAGANOV looked a lot like OSWALD - enough so that driving by in a car he could easily be mistaken for him....

 

1:26	87 (Ptm. R.C. Nelson)	87
1:26	Dispatcher	87
1:26	87 (Ptm. R.C. Nelson)	A white station wagon believed to be P (Paul) E (Ellis) 3435, unknown make or model, late model, occupied by two white males, left this fellow's station going east on Davis and believed they had a shotgun or rifle laying in the back seat.
1:26	Dispatcher	Received, 87.
1:26	87 (Ptm. R.C. Nelson)	87 en route down there on Jefferson.
1:26	Dispatcher	87, when you get down there see if you can find that car down there at the scene*.
1:26	87 (Ptm. R.C. Nelson)	10-4, Code 2. (Beeps)

 

*If the car LEFT THE STATION I'm at a loss for why DISPATCH would ask him to see if he can find the car....  HOW WOULD HE DO THAT???

..... But the info changes a little just 8 mins later...  If we remember, Mr. T F WHITE told us that he saw an OSWALD LOOK-ALIKE in a RED FORD FALCON at the El Chico with license plates PP4537 vs the PE3435 ... 5317 Goodman is only 2 miles from this gas station...

My interest is whether the description of this car and license was used in place of the car WHITE saw... at 2pm back at the CHICO...   Abandoning a car makes sense if it was stolen... too bad we don't have a license plate from the witnesses given the car was just sitting there...

1:34	87 (Ptm. R.C. Nelson)	87
1:34	Dispatcher	P (Paul) E (Ellis) 3435, C.E. Storey, 5317 Goodman, 1961 Falcon (four door?).
1:34	87 (Ptm. R.C. Nelson)	He wasn't sure of the license number.
1:34	Dispatcher	10-4.

They do make 4 door Ford Falcons...  yet with the direct connection to CARL MATHER of COLLINS RADIO.... 

From JFK & the Unspeakable:
FBI agent Charles T. Brown, Jr., reported from an interview with Milton Love, Dallas County Tax Office: “1963 Texas License Plate PP 4537 was issued for a 1957 Plymouth automobile in possession of Carl Amos Mather, 4309 Colgate Street, Garland, Texas.”

Agent Brown then drove to that address. He reported that the 1957 Plymouth bearing license plate PP 4537 was parked in the driveway of Mather’s home in Garland, a suburb of Dallas. Thus arose the question of how a license plate for Carl Amos Mather’s Plymouth came to be seen on the Falcon in EI Chico’s parking lot, with a man in it who looked like Oswald.

The FBI had also discovered that Carl Amos Mather did high-security communications work for Collins Radio, a major contractor with the Central Intelligence Agency. Three weeks before Kennedy’s assassination, Collins Radio had been identified on the front page of the New York Times as having just deployed a CIA raider ship on an espionage and sabotage mission against Cuba.

   

 

 

 

Edited November 8, 2018 by David Josephs